IMS fears and how to get over them?

As 996 owners we are a different breed, we are driving a vehicle that has an engine that could quit on us at any minute. No matter where we are or what we are doing. It could leave us not only stranded but also looking for $20,000 to try and get our vehicles back on the road. I have a 2001 C2 Cab with the 3.4 and no IMS mod completed. After reading the long thread about the engine that still went after the IMS mod was completed I was kind of bothered. Even after a $3500 mod (what my shop has quoted me) this engine could possibly still go on me?! It was too much and I went to a local dealership to test drive a used 07 Cayman. The car in my opinion looks great, compared to my stock narrow body cab it wins in the looks department. I also loved the interior, very simple with a steering wheel that felt great and expensive in the hands. We started driving, I noticed there was only 5 gears... boner kill.... it gets worse however, flat-out the thing was slower than my 911... I was able the dodge the sale's guy's closing techniques and get home to do some research. The regular Cayman only puts out 245hp (explains alot) the Cayman S however puts out around the same hp stock as our 911's... I would love to keep my car but its impossible to not look at alternatives, how do you guys keep your 996's with confidence and look past the problematic M96? My engine has 116,000 km's on it and i'm not sure whether to do the Mod or get a Cayman S. Any input is much appreciated!

Buy a freakin honda

It's easy Failure rate of the 996 is statistically very low You are reading only the horror stories here. To give you some perspective the failure rates are significantly lower than other makes : http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-new...ngine-failures Just drive and enjoy your car and don't read this forum so much My neighbor has a 996 as a daily driver with six figures on the odometer and has never even visited rennlist

Cue the a$$hats. OP, since this thread will quickly devolve into name calling and PG-13 erotica, decide if you enjoy the 911 or if a Cayman will suffice. If you are drawn to the 911, spend the money to upgrade the bearing to ease your mind, or save the money knowing it may someday be a down payment for the Cayman. If you don't have a love for the 911, sell it and get a car that has less paranoia associated with it, or upgrade to a 997.2 and worry less. I haven't found a good enough reason yet to walk away from my 996...in fact, I like it just a bit more every day.

The potential disasters in life are many. Falling in love can end with a broken heart. Inside our bodies are ticking time bombs. The volcanic caldra under Yellowstone could end civilization as we know it. So could a couple of good hackers. Hillary or Jeb could be the next president. But it only costs about $3500 to fix your IMSB...or you can do what I do and ignore it and spend the money on other things you love.

No realistic owner should have any degree of confidence that their engines are 100% safe. It's all a toss up..... Drive it and enjoy it while it lasts. I pampered my car and performed every bit of preventative maintenance recommended by those this on this forum and others (IMS, RMS, water pump, etc......). What happened to me at 44k miles? INTERMIX! Luckily my situation isn't that bad as I got more for my car "parted out" and restored to stock than I would've gotten had I just sold it fully modified. Lastly, I believe the 07 Cayman still has the M96 motor, in which case you're still at risk. Someone correct me if I'm wrong?

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Can I assume that you mean my thread? Believe me, I was "kind of bothered" too, when the motor blew. Here in San Diego, Porsches are as common as Hyundais. I see so many 996s on the road, they just blend into the masses of other expensive-brand cars I see every single day. Where I grew up, it was extremely rare to even see a Mercedes. If anyone in town owned one, almost everyone else in town knew them as: "You know, those people that own the Mercedes." Certainly, no one drove a Porsche there. Now, here, the members of RL, we are a special subset of the foolish: the ones that read forums. I would bet that 99.9% of the people driving 996s are blissfully ignorant that there is even such a thing as an IMSB, or of the 27 catastrophic modes of failure (or was that 37? I lost track). As the sage Mr. Ireland states, "The potential disasters in life are many." Let's keep things in perspective. We aren't living in a place that is being decimated by malaria, we don't have bombs falling daily in our neighborhoods, and we don't use camel dung to heat our houses. You can traverse life on eggshells, afraid of carcinogenic nitrated polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons that are formed when you grill a piece of chicken, or you can slam down a cup of the juice of life. Your choice. I recommend just enjoying the car, and not reading forums, for the quickest road to keeping your 996 with "confidence." P.S> I have an '07 Cayman also. And yes, it has an IMSB. Living life on the edge here. Figured I'd hasten along the natural course of the universe. Item 1): You &^%$@ for starting a new IMSB thread. Item 2):

Psh. PG at best. How's the car running? OP, I have killed an Oldsmobile, a Fiero (three times) a couple of Volvos, a Mercury, a Mazda pickup. The Mazda's driveshaft cracked...when it landed. While I have mellowed some, the point is that these cars aren't as fragile as the forums make them seem. I drive mine hard, but I keep it maintained, and it's been as or more reliable than anything else I've owned. I have had the 996 airborne just once, and it fared WAY better than the Mazda...

Have driven about 150 miles on the replacement motor. Haven't exceeded 100 mph yet, so still taking it easy on the motor. So far, everything seems great!

Sweet. Nice to see a reasonably-priced happy ending, which may just qualify as a way to get over OP's fears...

I am a gambling/betting man. A twenty to one shot is a great bet. Line twenty 996's up. One of them has the bad engine. I bet anyone on the board $27000 EVEN MONEY that you can't pick the bad one. That's our odds. Enough said. ANY TAKERS???????????????????? If you are NOT a smoker. It doesn't guarantee that you won't die of a lung cancer. If you are, your odds are much lower than 20 to 1 that you will.

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Chance of IMS failure are lower than you getting into a crash, you can replace the IMS, get into an accident and your car is done, downgrade from a 911 to a Cayman doesn't sound right to me, having a Cayman as a second vehicle, that's the way to go.

911 Turbo...GT3....GT2!

I drove my 1999 996 for almost 10 years and 50k miles...other than minor issues it was the most reliable car I've owned. I sold it 3 years ago and bought a " bullet proof" 1982 911SC with 63k miles....broken head stud after 1 year of ownership...$6500 to replace...no complaints...just sayin..you never know. Drive your car..enjoy it!

The good news is you know the issues exist and have a choice of what to do at this point. The majority of those who have IMSB or other failures that I consult with have never heard of the issues before they strike. Lots of owners perform a retrofit, lots of owners don't. Some owners sell the car, so they don't have to deal with/ worry about it. As long as the engine is proven to be healthy enough for retrofit, it should be considered. Some people that contact us for preventative IMS Retrofits are more concerned than others. The trend as of the last couple of years has come from new owners of 996s who seem to do the research before they buy a 996.

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Lmao best response ever the term **** hat never gets old.

I haven't been a poster on rennlist long and I am already sick of IMSB threads.. 996 Porsches aren't the only car on earth that are "ticking time bombs" any car with an interference engine is.. One skipped tooth or broken timing belt and you are done. I had a Miata (the most reliable cars I have owned) that had the front half of the crank shaft snap off, a mustang gt that had oil starvation and snapped a cam.. Lost a z32 engine on the track due to a smashed oil pan..Stuff happens. When it does you fix it or take the loss..To me it sounds like everyone who is worried can't afford to own the car. Slowly put money away for the repair the next time the clutch is replaced, replace it.. If it goes I between then there is nothing you can do... Unless you have the cash then replace it now and enjoy the car.. If I were so paranoid I never would have bought it... Geez.

I have a '99 with 74K on it,I'm not going to IMS. I'm not a rich man but it is what it is. If it goes, I'll decide then what to do. I have owned the car for three summers and put on 28K with no issues. Enjoy the ride…can't beat it for the money!!

Apart from the IMSB, the failure rate of these cars seems quite low, particularly for sportscars hitting their teen years. The kicker is the cost of repair versus those for which replacement engines are relatively cheap and plentiful. You may wish to shop around, though, as your quoted IMSB replacement price is quite high. For me, the bearing swap was a given, and the seizure rate of the replacement bearings is negligible. Then again, the comparatively raw nature of the 996, especially with a Fister exhaust (or similar) makes for a rather bargain GT3-like experience on the street. With the rough weather back East, I have had plentiful opportunity to become slightly addicted to GT3 videos (Jethro Bovington, Chris Harris and others), and the sound my car makes and the view out from the cockpit (the one that matters most) is so remarkably similar that I cannot help but smile and feel like I pulled one over on life. Nearly 29,000 miles in a shade over one year.

Sheesh...here we go again. Bottom line is that no one knows which 996 will have an IMS failure. In addition, how many engine failures were lumped into the IMS category that really weren't? All 996's are susceptible. Low mileage garage queens? Check. High mileage DD's? Check. Engines that have already had the IMS LNE Retrofit? Check. You can't always tell in advance and you can't stop it. If the number of catastrophic engine failures for the 996 is less than 10% then that is pretty damn good...considering 100% of engines will fail at some point. If you love the car but don't have the coin to get it back running in case your luck runs out, then sell the car. Because ulcers suck.

"IMS fears and how to get over them?" Sell the car to somebody who will drive it .

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fixed it for ya

Hey, you know what the gold thing in this picture is? It's a special aftermarket clamp that you put on the driveshaft of a 928 because Porsche apparently used a 924 part for the factory clamp. It's purpose is to keep the driveshaft from migrating forward, putting pressure on the flex plate which ultimately kills your thrust bearing and grenades your engine. They aren't 100% sure that this clamp or any clamp is a real fix for this problem - I might still grenade the engine on my 928. You know what this picture shows? The world's longest ever timing belt - also from the 928. If it breaks or even skips more than 2 teeth, guess what? Interference engine ugliness. Porsche recommends a service interval of 10 years. Guess what service interval the boys over on the 928 forum use? As little as 4 years bcz they are scared sh__less of this potential failure. And when changing the timing belt, conventional wisdom sez change the water pump bcz a water pump seizure is the most common cause of timing belt failure. You are lucky if you can find an indy that will do a TB/WP change for under $2,500. Then, the list of WYAIT parts for a TB/WP change is mind boggling. Mind you, that's every 4 years. We aren't the only ones with engines that have multiple failure modes. In 1990, I had a 1987 Chevy Trailblazer with a 2.8 V-6 that died at 88,000 miles of 90% highway driving. The explanation: "Aww, these 2.8 liter GM engines just wear out around 80,000 miles." Despite the hype, the M96 engine is not evil incarnate. Take Cuda's engine. It lasted 12 years and 119,000 miles before it died. Cuda, sorry for your loss, man. But is getting 12 years and 119,000 miles out of a high performance engine really all that bad? Ask the Ferrari guys how often they rebuild engines and if they'd take a what, $13,000 repair (don't think we've seen the final bill from Cuda yet, but that's what I'm guessing) one time after 12 years and 119,000 miles to have an engine replaced. OK, guess what this is a picture of:

To the OP: Your posts reads like you have done just enough research to increase your M96 ownership stress. Why don't you do as JR suggested and continue to do research then do something to minimize your risk? Most, including JR, will agree you should retrofit bearing, do more frequent oil changes, use a higher viscosity, special engine oil. See? Easy to reduce your risk of CEF.

As a new guy here I did do my research and put aside some $ to handle the "IMS curse". With 996 current values you can justify adding the expense to the low purchase price. I do, however, miss the days when I had my 2000 Boxster and later my 2003 Boxster S and drove them all the time blissfully ignorant that a major mechanical breakdown was just around the next corner. Anyone out there have the LNE tool that they will rent me so I can do the repair?

Bro, I have loaned my IMSB and RMS install tools out a few times to members but they were closer to me. Maybe some near you in Ca?

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OMG I thought I was reading my posting. I too have a 99 C2 with 74000 on it. Had it almost 4 years and put on 29000 miles on it. The original IMSB and don't intend replacing it. No major issues and do all my preventative maintenance myself. WOW....

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[Image-only post; no author-written text. Original image references:] http://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/57762962.jpg

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If you are looking for rational comments and responses to your post, Rennlist is probably not the place you will get them. But I will try. If you can afford to do so without too much financial discomfort, sell the 996 and get the Cayman S. The Cayman S is a better car in my opinion, and you'll get a warranty. The 996 engine is a very poor quality engine. The power to displacement ratio is good. But the durability is so bad it's like a made in China/Harbor Freight quality engine. Unfortunately, it's what you (and I) have. If you keep the 996, install one of the IMS replacement bearing kits, and just drive it until the car dies. There are a lot of other potential areas for catastrophic engine failure (remember my made in China/Harbor Freight comment . . . ), and there is no way you can address them all. Even the block (crankcase) on these engines is problematic. You could throw a TON of money at this engine, still not address all of the potential problems, and at best, you will only get a very short quasi-warranty. You will get a real warranty with a new Cayman S. Take some comfort in the general belief that the more you drive these 996s, the less problems you have. b-man

Now that is funny. Who doesn't love saying "Bro" or "Bruh"? I really was a "meathead", here I am at a Yuma Gym while on vacation. (Wife's in much better shape than me) Now after a few years and many injuries later Im more of a "spamhead" but still in the gym. Live to lift, Bro!

Don't skip leg day! You don't wanna be one of THOSE bros.

IKR, man talk about off topic. Im from the era of "bar bodies" when we all loved doing bench but hated squats. Much better now after doing the "squat till you puke" routines. #$%^, now your gonna make me spend the rest of the day at bodybuilding.com,, a true "Bro" place. BTW, I don't know if the M96 is down to Harbor Freight level but it certainly has some unique issues.

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I don't know why I"m in this IMS thread. Really - it's humiliating having clicked on it, and I am further chastened finding myself posting in it -- gulp. However, in the interest of clarity, and for the value of correcting a member of the bar I shall proceed. Vis-a-vis the 928, and it's foibles. The pretty clamp is to resolve a problem with flex plate migration that occurs over time, and is completely avoidable by use of this or other clamp, and a periodic inspection from below that takes about 1 hour the first time, and 30 minutes each additional time. Migration is slow, and in many cases doesn't happen at all. Not remotely catastrophic in the immediate sense, and most cars which suffered from it were let go in many other ways. Also, cars affected were primarily the 86.5 and later auto trans cars. To be sure, this is still a lot of cars, but not the entire fleet, as the 77-84 are not affected, and it's completely rare on the 85-86, but more prevalent on the 87 and later autos. Next, we come to the timing belt. As one Jalopnik scibe put it - 'the devil invention'. The 928 has one big TB and it runs not just the cams but also the oil pump, water pump, and touches a tension roller. Again, this failure mode does not present to all 928s equally. The early single cam cars are non-interference(this pic appears to be a non-interference engine), except for a few very late hi comp Euro engines in 84/85, which may or may not be interference based on head PN and piston used. Now, from 85-ish onward the timing belt is a serious concern. Each owner will decide how much risk is acceptable. Gates and other belt makers have come up with some remarkable belts, and the serious water pump issues seem to be a thing of the past, although certainly one could suffer a catastrophic failure. The 928 community has come up with several clever inventions ala IMSB replacements to minimize the risk of catastrophic failure. I suffered a water pump failure last fall in an 88 and had no internal engine damage as I was warned in time by the belt warning and temp gauge. There have been belt or pump failures, and they are bad ones, but this was the pact that the buyer made with mfg from the start. A properly maintained interference 928 has a very, very low risk of serious failure from the belt. I've seen belts that were > 100k miles and on their last shreds of fabric still working(928OC DFW 2010 still makes me shiver). If you don't want a TB worry, get an early model. Finally, the case that is missing, and it's just as horrible as the IMSB. We call it 2/6 rod bearing starvation. Under heavy use, like on a track or even a spirited windy run the later models and basically all models of 928 can suffer a repeated starvation or perhaps aeration of the 2/6 crank journal. The failure mode doesn't show on the oil pressure gauge until it's too late, and it is completely catastrophic. Usually the only thing that survives is the case and heads. New rods, crank, bearings, oil pump, etc. I suffered this one too, and it's costly and messy. So - the IMSB doesn't really bother me that much. If I get a 996, I'll do all of the proactive stuff myself, put in the guardian, and do what I can to prevent it. But - it's part of the car. It's part of ownership, and 928 or 996, knowing the reality is better than the unknowns of some other makes.

No, NO, NO ! The whole POINT of IMS threads is to spread panic, not to suggest that this is an issue that can just be addressed as PM and filed under "Don't worry about it." Doc, not only did you fail to contribute to IMS paranoia, you didn't make up a single bogus statistic to back up your claims.

So we agree, then. At least for the most part. Every car has its warts. The 996 is not the ticking time bomb that many purport it to be, at least in comparison to other cars that aren't Hondas. I really enjoy my 928 (during the few trips I've gotten to make in it) and it's on display downstairs in the museum right now, but maintenance wise, there's no comparison to the reliability of a 996. Also, I'll e-mail Roger (928srus.com for you 996 wonks) and ask him for the guarantee that the Ritech Clamp will 100% eliminate thrust bearing failure. The warranty paperwork wasn't in the box that the clamp arrived in. Maybe Roger just forgot to include that guarantee. But, the good news is that I'll be able to cite this post in court if Roger and/or Ritech fail to pay for a repair of the damage caused by a thrust bearing failure. Now, I wonder if Roger might actually come back and say that there is no such warranty? Doc, I think you live down there in God's country near Roger, so maybe you can have him call me about that 100% guarantee? Or, I can call him - he's on my speed-dial ever since I bought my 928 in September. As for timing belt failures, I'm also glad to learn that on my '87 S4 I've got absolutely nothing to worry about. If it breaks, it's all good. I now feel foolish for taking the 20 hours or so of my time and $1,500+ in parts to do the TB/WP change & WYAIT stuff. I mean, the car was running fine, it was just that pesky Tensioner Warning Light that kept coming on 3 minutes after startup and that would stay lit continuously. It seems like I remember several guys on the 928 forum saying that wasn't good, and that I might want to get that checked before sh__ started falling off my car. But, little did I know, that was all just hysteria. I will sleep better tonight. Beverly Hills Cop - Axel at the Harrow Club - YouTube

I'm guessing it was either my thread or Cuda's that you referenced. Well, as someone who has had a very recent engine failure, my advice is to put it out of your mind and enjoy driving a 911! Every car on the road has a chance of failure. Some may have higher likelyhood than others, but in this case, it's not a high enough rate to make it worth stressing over.

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I apologize unreservedly, and throw myself on the mercy of the Porsche gods. Here's a serious fact. All bearings will fail. They are life-limited components in a mechanical system. Bearings are a sacrificial part of a machine. Sadly, the MTBF on this bearing has a very wide and poorly defined scattergraph. Low predictability is a problem for machinery, and particularly consumer machinery like a high end car. How'd I do this time.

I've tried to point that out in the past - that any IMS statistic is AT BEST a snapshot at a given moment in an equation with almost countless variables. Then, I get called "johnireland" and boobie pics are posted. So, at this point I'm going to redirect my effort into my true calling on RL - my "Good week" thread...

The clamp and periodic inspection (ref post 33, 2 para, 1st line) will completely eliminate 928 TBF. Pays to be accurate in engineering, not so much in law. So, a 928 belt tension warning light came on, it was attended properly and promptly, and vendor designed maintenance path followed, and a catastrophic failure was averted. I will alert the media. Not sure it'll get much play but I guess some folks need the hysteria mode. Let's review, I've suffered 1-1/2 of the three horrible catastrophic events in the 928 world. I'm still here, but what's important is to ring the alarm bells, and make any failure mode as bad as it possibly can be made, even including non-cases in the case study. Now back to our regularly scheduled hysteria - 996 flavor. <edited to correct errata>

100% of my 996's have experienced catastrophic engine failure. This is also true for AndrewMT996, so that's a 200% failure rate.

Docmirror, like I said, I think we're actually on the same page. I'm a fan of both the 928 and the 996, so much to the point that I've bought one of each in the last 20 months. Yes, they both have their maintenance issues and both can suffer catastrophic failures. But, that can happen with almost any car. It won't keep me from driving them and won't make me sell them. Cuda & Andrew: Again, sorry you both suffered those failures. That sucks. Schnell: Sorry for calling you johnireland. Can we still be friends?

Heh. Sure, I'm not that butthurt. Just a little.

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In the aviation world, components 'time out'. Specifically for commercial operators, certain parts of an engine are replaced no matter the condition. Bearings are a major part of this time based maintenance, and the replacement time is some fraction of the MTBF(determined by engineering studies and case data). Prediction is a major part of determining MTBF and trend lines become boundaries. Math people apply things like chi-square or R-squared stats modeling to the failures to improve real world results. Those engineers and math people just got it wrong a bit on the IMS, because the predictive modeling wasn't as strict as they thought. Randomness is what gets the car in the end. Failing at 120k and the next failure at 22k miles are really hard to handle for statistical analysis. Also the use cycles, and environment are a big factor that is out of the control of the modelers. Makes stuff like this maddeningly random, and affect reputations. Airbus is dealing with this right now in the aviation world, and it might get uglier before it gets better. I think maybe I shouldn't have started in this thread. I've never even owned a 996 but I do know a little about FA, MTBF, and avoiding stuff even though I haven't been fully successful either. Sometimes random isn't really as random as it first appears. Then, things like lawsuits happen, and 996 prices become attractive to folks like me. Bonus!

Pretty sure the timing belt on my turbo subaru was longer than that 928 belt. Like many who start or participate in these threads, I became concerned after buying my 986 and read up. Not too much after that I had metal in my oil filter, and took it apart to find a failed early two row bearing. For me that removed any doubt that these topics are fear mongering driven by people with an agenda. I laugh when people defend the 10% (or even 8%) failure rate as acceptable, or that the supposed 1% failure of the two row bearings mean no one should worry. If the products my company produce operated successfully 99.9% of the time there would be smoking craters all across the country every day. 8-10% catastrophic failure rate is significant, and is undoubtedly the reason why 986/996 cars are relatively dirt cheap for a such a capable car.

Any catastrophic failure is significant. Internet conjecture/drama about the numbers is undoubtedly the reason why 986/996 cars are relatively dirt cheap.

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82.5" . Waaddaya got on the Subie?

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88.5"

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Yours is bigger.

When I drive mine I worry more about getting another ticket then anything going wrong with the car.

#IMS is trending

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So is #boobies...

That bikini is so obviously photoshopped in. I want to see the real pic.

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I just inhaled on my cigar...Geebus..SP likey

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No can do...that would result in a Two Week Ban and I'd hit to miss another IMS Thread, you know, just in case someone brought up something new and interesting...

Has anyone tried sitting on a giant stack of cash?

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At least you were honest Pete, not like Bill Clinton...

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I removed the stock seat padding and stuffed them with cash. Its not as comfortable as you might think.

Enjoyed all responses and...of course...pictures but I'm still looking to rent an LNE IMS tool kit from anyone who might have one.......Anyone?

If it didn't go by now it won't!!

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Replacement tiptronic shipping weight is 356lb

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Is that Putin's son in th pic?

Dafuq ? No love or mention of the uber apparatus Das Guardian ?

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Mike, I love your sense of humour (Yes, I'm Canadian, I spelled it correctly). AND your sense of perspective.

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Kalash- There's a perfectly good shirt sitting there within arm's reach on that 2x4, son. Let's use it.