Are my driving impressions of a 996.1 and 996.2 representative?

I'm in the market for a 996 cabrio 6MT. I've recently test driven two 996s, a '99 and an '03. The '99 is at a consignment shop called Great Lakes Autosports in Villa Park, IL. It's got ~55K miles, is Arena Red over light gray, with an asking price of $19,450. https://www.greatlakesautosports.com...rrera-2/429199 Nice guys, let me take it out for a drive with just myself and a multiple-Porsche-owning friend. The 911 started and ran well, but I noticed several things The throttle effort was much higher than expected. The engine revved like it had a relatively heavy flywheel, so it was hard to shift smoothly, especially rev-matching for downshifts. The powerband also felt like it came on in "steps". Like there was a noticeable boost around 3K, and then another noticeable boost around 5K. The transmission didn't grind at all, but it did feel a little notchy. My overall impression was that the car was used but not loved. It had several dings, a paint chips scattered throughout, some scratches in front of the passenger-side rear wheel (like something had rubbed up against it), a somewhat-worn interior, and the frunk carpet looked like it had several inches of standing water in it at some point. It did have some service records with it from Porsche Milwaukee, and according to the CarFax, it had its clutch replaced twice--once around 25K and once around 50K--but no IMS bearing replacement. That said, despite it being in the 30s, when I put the top down, it suddenly got a lot more fun. I would say that I liked the car, but definitely didn't love it. The '03 is at Napleton Porsche in Westmont, IL. It's got 47K miles, is Midnight Blue Metallic over light gray, with a current asking price of $33,500. OOOPS, THAT WAS SUPPOSED TO SAY $23,500. (That doesn't include tax, title, and license, or this $1000 dealer add-on package that they insist on, which is basically just extra profit for them.) https://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-...ckType=listing The salesman was a guy named Jordan, who was really nice and really helpful. I wasn't expecting to get to drive this 911 as it was upstairs in the showroom and had to leave by elevator, but Jordan offered. This 911 was a big improvement over the '99. It felt noticeably torquier, which, you might say, duh, it's the 3.6L compared to the 3.4L, but I didn't really expect 20lb-ft of torque (or whatever it is) to translate into something my SOTP dyno would actually register. The flywheel felt lighter, too--I was able to shift and rev-match smoothly. Power built smoothly to redline, too. The transmission felt nice and tight, in a good way. This 911 was in excellent condition--no dings, dents, or chips I could find and the interior was great as well. The convertible top had some creases on it, presumably from being left with the top down (in the showroom) for a long time. No clutch or IMS bearing replacement on this 911. I felt a lot closer to love with this particular car. So why don't I buy it? Well, after all of the fees and taxes and such, it's going to be around $27K, and I'm trying to stick with a budget of upper teens to low 20s. Also, like pretty much everyone else, I'm trying to hold out for a REALLY good deal. So, back to price. The 996.1s are definitely more in my price range--there are plenty in the upper teens and at least some of them are bound to be nice. But, what if they all drive like the '99 I test drove? If my choices are spending upper teens on a 911 which drives like the '99 (which I think should have been priced around $16K rather than $19.5K due to its condition) or low 20s on one which drives like the '03, I'll spend the extra cash no problem. But then I've read about people claiming that the 996.1s are sportier and better "driver's cars" than the 996.2s and it makes me wonder if the '99 I drove wasn't representative of what a good 996.1 should feel like. I was going to try to test drive another 996.1 to get a comparison, but the third dealer was boutique-ish shop of the "you can test drive the car after you commit to buy and sign the paperwork, and only if you drive it gently" mentality. This car was also a '99, silver over black, with 45K miles on it A few chips and scratches here and there and the convertible top window was yellowed and falling apart, but the black interior was decent. Asking price is $20,900, which again is too high, IMO, especially at a dealer who is anti-test-drive. https://www.ebay.com/itm/1999-Porsch...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT I live in southern Illinois (those three 911s were in the Chicago suburbs, where I was up visiting family) which is something of an enthusiast wasteland--the closest place I might find another 996.1 6-speed is St. Louis, and I'm not trying to make a 4-hour round-trip drive to hope to test drive something that I may not be interested in. So what do you guys think--are 996.1s just not for me, or should I give them another chance?

What types of cars are you used to? It's hard for me to really gauge your experience because your expectations are predicated on what you are used to driving. The '99 has a cable throttle. Later models do not. That may account for your throttle feel difference. All those cars are priced too high for condition, IMHO. Take your time and shop some more. You'll know the right one when you drive it.

Since you asked, cars I've owned: Current: --'15 Audi S4 6MT. Pulley, tune, intake, exhaust, makes about 450hp to the crank, so a good bit quicker than stock. --'94 Chevy Caprice wagon. This thing has bolt-ons galore and is about 400hp to the crank. Shift kit, 4.10s, fat tires. It drives like a muscle car. Middle-aged white guys and black guys of all ages love this car. Nobody else does. Past: --'08 BMW M5 6MT. This thing screamed from 5K-8K but was soft below that. Also I was worried about breaking it or getting it dirty or dinged or.. yeah. Put 10K on it before selling it for the S4. --'04 Mustang Cobra. This one isn't exactly "past" but I am pretty sure I am going to lose it in my divorce. Originally had bolt ons and made 463rwhp. Later got a TVS supercharger upgrade which should have put it around 600rwhp, but I never ended up getting it tuned well so it was probably more like 550rwhp. This car was a ton of fun with just the bolt-ons. Lots torque, handled really well (independent rear suspension), easy to steer with the throttle. --'06 Chrysler 300C SRT8. This was actually my soon-to-be-ex's car, but I was the one who steered her to it and I enjoyed driving it more than she did. Mostly stock, aside from intake, tune, and Borla exhaust. --'89 Mustang GT convertible 5MT. This one had bolt-ons, and suspension upgrades. It was about 350hp to the crank. A really fun car, but the Cobra was better in every aspect so I couldn't justify keeping both, I regret selling this car now, and the 911 is intended to be its spiritual successor. --'93 Mustang LX notchback 5MT This one was bone stock and it was my first "quick" car. Solid it to pay for attorneys' fees (20-something me got a lot of moving violations). --'88 Pontiac Fiero GT 5MT. Got this car when I was in highschool, had it for more than a decade. Strongly thinking about buying one again, if I can find a nice example with a supercharged 3800 swapped into it. --.82 Monte Carlo. My first car, circa 1990. This car had the smallest, least-powerful engine ever put into a RWD Monte Carlo, but I still put 100K miles on it before it lost 2nd and 3rd gear. Then I drove it for another year.. first gear was good for 55mph at redline, so I could do 35-40mph around town.

I've come across a handful of 911s that seem to be reasonably priced for their condition, and in good shape, but none of them are nearby--they're all 500-1000 miles away, which would make it time-consuming to go see, test drive, get a PPI, do a wire transfer for payment, and then drive (or tow) home.

Great first post Not top ten but a great one just the same I married the first girl I dated and bought the first car I ever drove Not much of a tire kicker but i like the idea and your approach Be sure to post a pic of the ride you buy As long as it not a Prius

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Thanks! I've been doing a lot of lurking so I found answers to most of the cliched first-post questions that people ask. While leaving the consignment shop where the '99 was at, I told the dealer that I had a couple other 911s I was going to check out. "I'm not going to marry the first girl I lay", I told him. (Ferris Bueller reference for anyone who doesn't get it.)

I seem to remember reading that the Variocam on the 996.2s was "improved" but didn't see any more detail besides that. Maybe the Variocam on the 996.1s doesn't ramp up as smoothly as the 996.2s?

My 99 feels more raw to me than the 03 I got to spend some time in.

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Please elaborate as to what you mean by "raw".

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Maybe not one for one but it reminds me of my v8 Audi s4 versus my camaro ss. Both v8s but different driving experiences. My 99 just feels less refined, still has the cable throttle, an LSD and low options. The 3.4 likes to live above 3k given its power band. The 03 I spent time with had better fit and finish, more options and felt smoother to drive to me.

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I bought a 2000 C4 Cab 6MT w/90k miles on it about 5 months for $15k. IMS was done 2 yrs ago and it was in great shape cosmetically and mechanically for a 20 yr old car. Needed to sort out a few minor issues which has cost me about $2.5k but that's the end of it (for now). It was good value for $17.5k IMO, given that KBB in my area puts it's value at about $20-22k. I've driven a few 996s (various yrs; don't remember which) before and this one seems the same. The power comes on at about 3-4k as mentioned. Takes a while to wind it up but the power comes on rapidly/smoothly when you hit the power band; no "steps." Haven't noticed any thottle issues. I had some problems "learning" the proper shift points (up/down) initially but that was due to my unfamiliarity w/the car. not to any problems w/the engine/trans itself. Would not consider the shifter "notchy." The car likes to be pushed, which I do every now and then, and I can now shift smoothly up and down w/o any problems even when rapid shifting is required. From what you've said, my 2000 sounds more like the 2003 than the 1999 that you've driven. I expect there will always be some individual differences between cars and I wouldn't put too much on what year it was made, except w/respect to the engine size. If you're serious about getting a 996 (1 or 2), I'd go where ever I need to go to find the one I like best.

Sent you a PM about my local 01 C2 6 speed

My first two test drives were an 03 and a 99 on the same day. I did notice I had no trouble shifting the 03 (after being away from a stick for 15 years) but did have a little trouble with the 99. Haven't driven a second 99 yet.

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Appreciate the offer, but I am only shopping for a cabrio. Other "dealbreaker" requirements: 6MT C2, no C4 No black exterior No black interior Prefer 70K miles or fewer.

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Sounds like your impression was similar to mine. I'm looking forward to hearing what you think after you drive another 996.1.

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I assume the LSD is aftermarket? From what I've seen in my searching, no C2s or C4s came with LSDs from the factory. Your impressions of the '03 sound similar to mine. I wish I could find a 996.2 that met my requirements and was from a private owner.

It takes 3-6 months to find the right 996 imho. That’s in Southern California for me on a few occasions. Might be more where you are .if I was driving like a nut through the mountains or really just having fun with the car on the weekend I would go with the early 99. If I drove the car a bit more around town and long trips I would get a 996.2. If I drove it to work a lot and we’re in the 10k per year range. I would get a 997. There are always deals out there you always have to be ready with cash and know what you are doing. The more hoops you make a seller jump through the less of a chance of getting a deal your gonna get. Very very rarely will you ever find a deal at a dealership, pretty much a waste of time unless you want to kick tires and ask for test drives. Always find a private seller and find out about the history of the car and how it was treated then go from there.

FWIW,, I did a 100% fluid service on my 03 last year when I bought it, , + a new coolant tank. new plugs, a lot of nut and bolt work new heat shields, basically small misc stuff. I spent around 2K by the time I was done.. Youll see many numbers but budget accordingly for a 996, my limited experience is its more expensive to maintain than some years.. I have found very few "Porsche shops" will really deal with a 996.. And many that do don't really know as much as they should to give the advice they dish out. YMMV

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LSDs came from the factory. Option code 220. Seem to be more common on the later build cars in my experience. But still, obviously not everyone built has it. My 99 shifts like crap but it the trans cables are poorly adjusted and worn out. The throttle (actual cable, not e-throttle) feels like my old 540i where you had to use a certain amount of force to overcome the initial resistance. Once I got past that and got used to it, I can modulate the throttle like anything else.

I think you meant $23,500 not $33,500 in your original post for the 2003...

Check out the PCA classifieds for enthusiast owned cars. There are lots of 996 out there. I'd rather know what you want, and travel for a good one than to get one just because it is local. Lots of '99 fans here, claiming better build, fit and finish. Some like the cable throttle. I have both a 996.1 and a 996.2 and hands down prefer the 996.2. I seldom drive the .1, but my wife likes to drive it sometimes. If I were shopping again, I wouldn't give a 996.1 a second look. The .2 has better power delivery, more torque and a stiffer chassis. The only things I like better about the .1 are the cable frunk and decklid release, and the location of the digital speedo in the cluster.

There is no question in my book, the 996.2 feels much torquier than the 996.1. I bought a 99 Cab C2 manual because it was just too good of a value for me, but based on the cars you have had in the past, you will be happier with the added torque feel of the .2. The .1 is fun on the track, or on deserted back roads where you are always above 4500 RPM and the torque difference doesn�t matter as much. On the street, the .2 feels faster.

IF you are not planning on changing the IMS, The 99 has a double row IMS and fails less often than any single row IMS car.

In my experience the Mk1 and Mk2 differences are very small. Yes, you do feel the torque down low on the 3.6, but revving and shifting should be equally instant and smooth. Since you are on a budget, I would strongly advise to test drive a couple more Mk1's. Just so you can make sure you got the proper experience and not just tested a thrashed example. To me, the biggest difference asside from aesthetics between the Mk1 and Mk2 are the interior quality in touch, feel and squeeky/rattlyness. The Mk2 interior feels much more solid. In the end, buy the car you fall in love with. If it happens to be the more expensive one, haggle harder or save up longer. The last thing you want is going for the more sensibly priced option that didn't make you fall in love. Then you are going to doubt your choice during your whole ownership.

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Yup, sure did mean $23,500. I've fixed it. Thanks!

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I took a peek at the PCA classifieds and, yeah, if I was in the market for a 996 turbo or a creampuff 996 cabrio or a high-miles 996, that would be the place to go. Tons of that stuff there. Pretty much nothing in the upper teens to lower 20s C2 Cabrio market, unfortunately. Appreciate your input about the mk1 vs. mk2.

In making my attempt at doing my due diligence before buying a 996, I went reading about welding / pinning the coolant hoses. Based on my cursory research, it's a $2K-$3K engine-out procedure to have all of the potential leak locations permanently fixed. https://rennlist.com/forums/996-turb...ant-hoses.html So, there's the self-destructing IMS bearing, plus however many other things that can kill the M96 engine. At what age of 911 do things get reliable enough that I can just do periodic oil changes and not worry that there is a $15K time bomb ticking behind me? I mean, if all 996s are ~$35K cars eventually, and I can spend $xxK on some newer model of 911 and dodge all of those bullets, maybe that's what I should aim for doing. Part of why I got rid of my E60 M5 6MT was because of the multitude of expensive-*** prone-to-failure items that the car had. Also because it was a torqueless wonder below 5K RPM.

Welding/pinning coolant hoses only applies to the mezger engines (turbo, GT2, GT3), not the Carerra and Carerra 4/4S powerplants. If you are prone to worrying and stress, then skip the M96 engines. The only way to enjoy them is to not be predisposed to that sort of stress. Then again there is a solid argument that every generation of 911 has it's Achilles heel. Personally, I do the preventative maintenance and drive the car, not stressing out about the possibility of what might happen. I enjoy my cars immensely.

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Oh thank God, I guess I can take the shotgun out of my mouth for that at least. I dunno, doing a little reading is educational. Doing too much reading is.. like putting on a pair of concrete overshoes and taking a step off the bridge. I am fine with reasonable (for a Porsche) maintenance costs. I am apprehensive about my $20K car tuning into a $6K paperweight. I mean, it wouldn't bankrupt me, but it would put a dent in savings or fun trips for the kids or whatever. Should I just get a Corvette or a Viper and tell the kids, "sorry, only one of you can come with", and not worry about the GOTCHAs that can come from a Porsche engine?

That is a question only you can answer. For me, there is no driving experience quite like a 911.

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I wouldn�t look at the value per se. I was out last night with car club guys and girls. One had a $16k turbo go on his Supra. Another has a 300HP lowered Elise. Another spent $50k+ upgrading his GTR. High end cars are expensive, no matter which one you get. Engines eventually need to be rebuilt. The cab you are looking for has a $2k top that last 5-10 years. The rear seat window regulator sells for $750. This hobby ain�t cheap. It�s up to you, but I never wanted to be that guy who chose his car over his kids. My kids are now 8 and 6, and they love riding in the 911. The cabriolet is one thing they love to experience. Worth it.

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Agree on kids loving to ride in a 996 cab. Especially the 996.1 (because it's the best). I bought my 100k 996 for $15k. I have about $5k into it (transmission rebuild, cab stuff, suspension repairs, seat upholstery) and it's in good condition. The engine might blow up tomorrow or last 100k miles more. If it happens I deal with it, LS swap, budget boxsters swap, used engine, rnd engine. Plenty of options (none perfect). If this is just a fun car then buy it cash, if it's something you need to finance then think twice. If you can do some work yourself you will save a lot of money. You don't have to be rich to own a 996.

I'm up in the Milwaukee area and have two 996s and have a buddy with 5. I didn't see it mentioned and I think it's worth noting that in both cases the shifting is going to be notchy and slow if you were taking them out for a drive after they sat on the lot (or even in a warehouse) at these temps. It takes a good 15-20 min of driving for the trans oil to warm up and get smoother. I think both versions have their pros and cons...but a .2 you might have some luck finding a gem. Because the .2s were more prone to bearing failure you might be able to find a factory replaced motor with the 997 bearing that should allow you to drive it and not think about it. I bought a 02 C2 that had it's motor replaced under CPO and was used as a weekend toy by the PO. It's got 118 on it (35 on the motor) and in 2 years I've had to do: coil packs/plugs, expansion tank, water pump, and replaced the gt3 coilovers with pss9s due to leaking I knew about prior to purchase. I drive the car and don't give a thought to mileage or obsess over the paint.

I can't believe others haven't mentioned it...did I miss something? 2 clutches in 50,000 miles..? Steps in power...? This sounds like a car that was owned by a person with no skills or mechanical sensitivity. The car is a dud..at least for me, it would be. Well driven cars with an MT don't need new clutches at 25,000 mile intervals. Steps in power can be from an engine that's driven to a certain RPM every time..when driven 'normally', the failings of that way of thinking can be discovered. FWIW, I've owned an '01 996 since new, never replaced a clutch on at least 2 cars, both Audis, both well north of 175,000 miles.

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Probably the mistake that was made was assuming it goes without saying. But you are right to make a mountain out of a mountain, not a molehill. I used to go through clutches all the time on my �68 Nova �drag car.� If the clutch was treated this way, how were the other components treated?

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All of these should get you a decent value. Cabs aren't generally as desierable as are some of the non black interiors. Sounds a lot like mine, ocean blue, 52k miles, Savana beige interior, cab.

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Oooh, that sounds purty. Honestly, that color scheme is my first choice, but it seems pretty rare.

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Yeah, that's what I was thinking, too--two clutches on a car with not much more than 50K miles on it seems wildly excessive. And interestingly, the IMS bearing supposedly hadn't been changed. The guy at the consignment shop said that the 911's owner claimed that the Porsche dealer had advised against replacing the IMS bearing. I get that it's a '99 so it's the least likely 996 have the bearing fail, but I feel like given a long enough timeline, every IMS bearing in every M96 will eventually fail, so why not replace it with a new / better one?

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My kids are 7 and 10 (birthdays coming up fast, too), and I'm sure they'd both love riding in a 911 cabrio too. I'll shelve the two-seater idea and stick with getting a 911.

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There are many 99 and 00 owners (dual row) who don�t change the IMSB until a clutch is required. Mine, for example, hasn�t yet been changed (64,000 miles). It�s true that the IMSB has a limited service life, but the condition of the dual row IMSB when removed from cars ranges from pretty worn to pristine, so the mileage literally varies across the board.

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I love the color, I would have actually preferred black interior but the beige has grown on me, it goes well with the blue. You can see just how dark the color is in the shade but when the sun hits the upper part how bright it is.

About the differences between the Mk1 and Mk2, please make sure to read this list of differences. The post also has a link to a review of the Mk2 when it first came out from Excellence Magazine. https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...l#post15173972 https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...l#post15174035 For example, it clarifies your question about the Variocam. The Mk1 has variable valve timing, the Mk2 has variable valve timing but also added variable valve lift, one of the significant reasons for higher HP and a cleaner running engine. BTW, mine is a Mk2 which I prefer.

Porsche has always been known for incremental advances with each successive generation of 911 - in others words "newer = better"... While this is true in theory, it isn't always in practice (see early single row IMS bearing). In addition, these "advances" don't always translate to sales prices - see air-cooled prices vs. 996 (which is clearly a superior vehicle in every way except "mojo" factor). Within same model the incremental/generational changes are generally small but occasionally can be significant - variocam plus and an extra 25 hp/higher torque is certainly significant, but id offset by the small single row IMSB... Your best bet is to drive the cars and make your decision based on that experience - try not to pre-judge based on what you're reading... By all means, do a "real" (i.e. invasive) PPI... Good luck

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The other offset for the larger engines is potentially a greater chance of bore scoring, at least according to the Hartech white paper showing that oil and cooling changes for the 3.6 and 3.8 engines did not increase enough to account for the added power and load in those engines compared to the 3.4, which, in early days, had D chunk issues. Theres always a trade off of risk for advancing technology (performance) versus keeping things as they are (reliable).

The 996.1 vs 996.2 debate is all down to personal preference, however having driven both extensively, I believe your observations were down to the particular cars and their respective levels of care. The first 996 I drove was a low mileage 2000 Zenith Blue 6spd coupe and the power delivery and shifting was fantastic, no less desirable than any of the .2 cars I've driven. My opinion is save a little more money to buy the best example possible. You'll have a much better experience if you find a car you're satisfied with versus having to "settle". Often times for the money you'll spend "sorting" the bottom feeder cars, you could have just had a nice mid-mileage example that will still be nicer than the bottom feeder you just sorted.

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they should sticky this comment so we don�t get the � hey guys my first post here, I am upgrading my e30 to a 996 and want to know if it iiS wOrTH iT? I also want the cheapest one available cUz I can fix it up later and use it for the time being to do postmates.� We seem to get these posts 2-4 times a week and it�s rather annoying because there is a search function. These people want to turn a thread into their own personal blog. It gets old. Although the op, has a more of an interesting post. What I am saying is not directed at him at all. Just saying buy now or pay later. Dude above me is 1000% right in every way.