Confusion- how to sort out the IMSB question??

I currently drive a 1999 with Tip, and am looking at a 2003 manual 911. Since it's at a dealer, there aren't any records, and since the last owner kept it barely 4 months and 1,000 miles, there's a red flag about.......something, anyway. Car has less than 40,000 miles, and is very clean. Fresh oil change eliminates being able to do an analysis. Is there anything definitive that can be learned about the IMS bearing from a PPI? If not, how can I get a comfort level that the car isn't spitting metal particles through it's system? NOTE: there are 400 miles on the oil change. would that be sufficient for Blackstone to notice iron particles from a failing bearing?

Nothing can be determined about the IMS bearing with removing the transmission, all clutch components, and removing the IMSB cover, then pulling the bearing. The 2003 may have a single row (small bearing) IMSB, or may have the larger non-servicable bearing. Anyway, if it can be removed, removing the bearing destroys it and it cannot be reused. Find a certified shop and have the IMS Solution installed. They will pre-certify the car before installing with intensive checking and testing. Only way to go

So....what's the smart play? Buying a car without knowing could cost an extra $25,000, and adding that to the purchase price puts me into TurboLand pricing. What did you guys do when searching and finding your cars?

Smart Play? Avoid the small single row bearing altogether. Buy 1999 to early 2000 with the dual row IMS bearing, or 2006 and later when they went to the larger single row. You might also consider Late 2000 through 2005 if a replacement engine is in place as these remanufactured engines used the 3rd generation larger single row IMS bearing. That's what I found in my 1999 C2. Keep in mind, ALL IMS bearing have the potential for failure, it's just that the small single row bearing cars have an 8-10% failure rate, and the other two less than 1%. YMMV.

Totally agree with your thoughts. However, this car is super clean and very low miles, which is what's causing me to dig into a way to tell...if there is one. Otherwise, the mantra is: 1999, or one that's had the bearing done, or 2006. Hate to leave this '03 in the dust if there's any way at all, though.

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Tell the dealer you want it for $5k less because you're going to install the solution when you buy it.

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Conversely, some budgeted to spend an additional $2k-$4k on preventative maintenance right after buying the car. The other side is buy and drive and accept the (albeit very small) risk. No real two ways about it.

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My money is on bore scoring and the oil change is heavier oil to hide the tick. *places tin-foil hat on desk*

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I've already had one timing chain go out ('73 911S) and don't want to get into another problem that we all could see coming. Buying from an individual with service records and oil analysis is the key to a good buy, and buying from a dealer is a crap shoot. His price on this car is already in the mid-20s, so it's more a matter of buying it, only to learn that the engine is a problem and not worth the Solution, and the dealer has no desire to share PO info with me, not that I blame him.

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You can have an invasive PPI done if the seller agrees to it, this way you can at least check for bore scoring and drop the sump. However, like DBJoe said, there's no way to check the IMS without removing the trans, and the IMS itself, which even then you can't see the internal condition of the bearing itself so it'd be a moot point. I do agree with your statements above, but it can be a crap shoot between private or dealer. The dealership I purchased mine from let me look through the prior owners receipts before purchasing. The dealer won't show you records, previous ownership was very short, to me that's suspect. It's up to you how much time and money you want to involve on an inspection to see if it's worth it.

this dealership sells very nice used cars, so as far as the white shoe crowd, these guys aren't that. However, buying at auction means that records are generally not going to come with, so the dealer knows as much as I do. I'm the guy that everybody wants to play poker with, because I'm that bad of a gambler, so going to pass on this smokin' deal because no way a dealer would let the car get touched by a wrench until it was sold. My question remains as an afterthought, though. Wouldn't an oil analysis after 400 miles show metal if the bearing has already started to grenade, and if the oil is clean, wouldn't that reduce the gamble tremendously?

Oil analysis is only data to extrapolate from. This isn't to say data isn't useful, but it's not concrete answers and really depends on who's reading it. What you don't seem to understand is that metals in the oil aren't always/only from the ims bearing. You've also got the main crank journal bearings, the connecting rod bearings and of course the cylinders themselves. Keep doing your research and specifically check out the Flat 6 series on the M96 Engine and it's most common modes of failure before you decide if you really want to "gamble" on one of these fine cars. Good Luck

Oil analysis finds traces of metals - parts per million. If things are coming apart in chunks then checking the oil filter and the magnetic drain plug are more helpful. Oil analysis won't tell you a thing if the particles are big enough to be visible.

In a perfect world, Blackstone would have the data they collected in such a format that they could filter by car, miles on the oil, and then compare the sample's numbers to what might be expected...or at least that's what I'm hoping/expecting. Given that I'm not the only person wanting to know about 2000-2005 engines before purchase, seems that somebody could provide a valuable service and make a few bucks in the process? What's bothersome is that red flags are there from recent ownership to recent oil change, but what if the car simply got an oil change, and the new owner simply didn't like a manual tranny? It's a crap-shoot, though, so nothing so far has given me reason to go ahead with the deal. The dealer has offered to let the PPI be done, but from what you guys have said, a normal PPI won't find anything to speak of, right? The shop I'd use is an IMS Solutions shop, so they know their stuff, and talking with the owner didn't give me the warm fuzzies that I'm wanting to hear.....danggit.

Walk from this one if you are not comfortable..... If you can get an invasive PPI by someone that can borescope, do it, but you are on your own with the IMS issue and need to either let it ride, or plan to replace it.

OP - If you�re rolling the bones, calculate how much a PPI with sump drop, borescope and oil change will cost you...sunk cost. A 996 will generally end up costing vicinity of $35k reliably sorted to your taste, no matter the path you take to get there. So the �smokin� deal� dollar amount is relative to your estimated total cash infusion. MadIrish and the others are right. I know a PPI (by someone who deals with all flavors of M96) checking the pickup tubes, cylinders and filter will catch a whole lot of bad. Plus, the nit pick list will help you assess the money pit probabilities.

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Oh, for sure I would replace the IMS right off the bat, along with the other things to do while in there. My question has been, "What if the car is already a problem child?" that's what I'm needing to avoid.

On the 400 mile oil analysis, even assuming it can tell you that the IMSB is or isn't starting to fail and shed metal, it can't tell you that it won't fail spectacularly in 200 miles even if it's fine now. As others have said, even assuming a clean PPI including a proctology component, replace the IMSB on purchase.

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The proctology meaning a full-on dis-assembly? As others have said, though, you can't do a PPI at that level without replacing the bearing anyway, so it becomes a $5,000 PPI. I don't have a problem with that, BUT what about if the engine's bearing has already started to grenade? Seems there is no way to know before starting the work, right?

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Proctology meaning drop the sump and boroscope.

Will that confirm that the engine is good for the upgraded IMSB, or not? Sorry to rag on this, but getting an education takes time and I don't want to miss something that should be obvious.

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Nope. You drop the sump and use the scope to verify that you don't have any scoring in the piston bores. You do this from the bottom because scoring tends to start at the skirts. For the IMSB, you have to pull the trans to see the bearing cover which can give you a club about the bearing. If you are going that far, it probably makes sense just to change the bearing. Google up Jake Raby's videos on M96/97 engine failures. Tons of info out there.

I am not going to sugar coat this for you. The M96/996 is not for you. If you are already losing sleep over this, then let it go. You don't even own the car, yet are obsessing over the IMSB. Everybody has given you good advice and solutions. Take it for what it is. The M96/996 is not for you. Buy a Bimmer. Then you can obsess over timing chain failures instead.

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Oh, go have some coffee, lol. I'm wanting to get a good basis for being able to tell whether any post-2000 996 can be tested with a definitive method that isn't as invasive...and seems that it can't. Since these cars are bought and sold regularly, it just didn't make sense that somebody would buy one on a gamble, but I guess that's the way it is. My 1999 is about perfect, so thinking that the newer headlights, a Nav screen, and half the miles are worth another $5,000 difference between sell and buy is a personal choice. When it becomes over $10K with the IMS upgrade, the price of the toy causes me to think twice. Thanks for the education, all.

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Please don't quote those numbers, they are grossly outdated and much higher today... As stated by Joe, get the car you want and negotiate the cost of the IMS Solution. Remember, the low mileage cars that aren't driven and serviced annually are the ones that have issues.

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Here's where my mind isn't wrapping around these comments in the thread; The easy part is buying the car and getting the Solution installed, the cost of the car allows for me to spend the money and still keep things real. The hard part is........if I can't tell whether the engine is already on death's door before I buy it.... how does that work? If the car's engine is dying, with fragments inside already, the Solution won't change that, so how do you work with that part?

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Get a PPI done by a certified IMSB installer. They do a prequalification before installing the Solution.

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Invasive PPI for bore scoping the cylinders and dropping the sump. Check for large metal fragments on drain plug / in the pan. These are key indicators. Then coupled with extensive prior ownership repair documentation. It's not hard, it's just time consuming and is an added cost.

7 years of discussion, 1,199 posts...read all this and get back to us https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...lure-mode.html

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DB, I've owned Porsche 911s for many years, and I've had discussions that created knowledge for both parties on a number of forums. Every forum has people that are dismissive and condescending and don't contribute to the group knowledge factor. Your suggestion is silly and non-productive when my question was simply can I or can't I get a good grade on the IMSB before purchase. Seems simple enough, but you don't have an answer to that and spent more time researching your response than it would have taken to say either Yes or No. The post above yours gives good guidance, so it's a question of whether a dealer will allow such an inspection. Sorry for the confusion.

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Well, I did provide an answer that was simple and to the point. You need to understand that the IMSB issue has been beaten to death on this forum, over and over. Sorry, I will refrain from being snarky on this issue. You are entitled to keep spinning this issue in your thread.

No offense taken, and I've seen a bunch of conversation about it, and read/watched the Solution thread and video, but only as a spectator since my '99 isn't as suspect. Once I got wind of this '03, it occurred to me that out of the million words that have been written, it was still a question (at least in my mind) about how to determine a fault before a purchase, without a big investment in time and money that most dealers, and probably all private parties, would not allow.. Once the oil analysis was deemed to be less than accurate for all cars, then the thought started in my head about how would somebody buy a car without doing that big take-down, and if they did so, was it because they're not informed, or like to gamble, or what? Right now I'm pretty much going to avoid 2000-2005 models, but that seems pretty unfair to all of those owners that might be selling one day.

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People buy for multitude of reasons, some are not informed, others see it as a gamble, and others just don't really care in the end and assume the (small) risk but put in proper maintenance and enjoy the ownership (myself). You can avoid any year you want, but going further 997.1 and 997.2's also have experienced bore scoring, so you might as well count those out too. Flip side, you can get a Mezger engine 996 turbo, but turbo's have some of their own inherent issues. There's many sports cars that have some kind of nuances, you just have to figure out what it is you want, total level of risk, and either go forward or look into something more reliable.

Buy em broken, then get the best rebuild you can!

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Amen Bill! Was talking to Jake Raby at our last recording session and he said that while the Mezgers don't suffer from bore scoring or IMS bearing failure like the M9X, owners need to know they are a lot more expensive to service and rebuild. For ref, he just billed a 993 Mezger reconstruction for a customer at the cost of $70,000. Now, how does that make you feel now? hahaha We M9X owners don't know how good we have it.

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The answer to this question is you can get a good grade on the IMSB before purchase - at a great expense. If you find a shop that is certified to install the IMS solution, per 808Bill's advice, they will be trained in what to look for in order to qualify the car. Qualification requires a non-failing IMSB. So the reason a lot of people are just saying buy the car and roll the dice is because who would pay a mechanic hundreds of dollars, if not close to a thousand dollars to do all of the invasive inspection work on an IMSB specifically and then not do any actual work on the car? Then consider it's going to be at the very least another few hundred to ask the mechanic to do the bore scoping work that is recommended for a PPI. If you're comfortable snuggling up to $2,000 to have someone tell you not to buy a car because of what they found - more power to you! Most of us just rolled the dice with a retrofit post purchase.

well-said!

At the bottom of this page is a YouTube vid that describes the pre-qualification procedure for IMSB replacement. Doing this would be as close as you can get to knowing the bearing is OK for now. That is without actually dropping the tranny and removing the bearing. https://lnengineering.com/products/i...7-engines.html

That's great. In case it hasn't been done already, I've created a POLL to see what we've done with our cars. This should show that 11/12 of us have had not problems, but how did we jump onto the learning curve, and when?

from another thread on this subject: PPI will not give any indication on the IMS. The transmission needs to be dropped for access, and even then if you pull the bearing you can look at its external components, but you'll never know the wear characteristics of the internals and the actual bearings. This is why many just change the IMS as a preventative measure because it makes no sense to do all that work, for an inspection that leaves no level of certainty, just to put it all back together. This response should be a sticky for all IMSB questions.

The Car Wizard addressing the IMS issue on a 996... You Tube