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YOUR RESEARCHSUPERCHARGING a 996, anyone??
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seals, gaskets and ability
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The issue is the seals, gaskets and ability for the faseners in the aluminum case to stay together.
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For further info, this SC has been installed on a 04 4s.
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The M96 motor barely holds together as it is...No way in hell id consider one with a super charger installed on it.
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Then a year later after I started tracking the car, my perspective changed about the car for the better.
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The word supercharged will be replaced with set-up, braking, turn-in, and balance.
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Suggestion · Original poster
I and my sons generally run 1,2,3 at autobaun places, but that's as far as I'll go because with age comes a slowing of reflexes, and I'm at that point.
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Who knows supercharging? I'm looking at a car with a supercharger and snow methanol intercooler. The car will get a PPI to determine whether it was tracked or just a fun toy, but in the meantime, can our trannies handle the boost? The clutch is a stage 2 or 3, FWIW.
My wife's Jag is supercharged and you don't know it's there until you step on the gas; very docile for around town. If the 996 has similar manners, then it's a sleeper with manners, but what are the trade-offs to putting a SC onto our engines?
Trans is good for a ls motor so it will hold the sc power. Hopefully it has a clutch upgrade.
Personally i find boosting a na engine is glitchy and problematic but if.running good they r a blast to drive.
I'm going to turbo a 2.5 boxster motor and put it in my car as a cheap motor replacement when the one in the car goes... 350WHP for like $5K...
Kidding... or am I ?
Selling dealer says the upgraded clutch has been installed, and it's heavier than stock, but not a killer. Agreed that the only way to know about it is to drive it, so that's the plan for next week if things can be arranged.
I don't track cars, but live in the country, so getting on the boost for short periods will be the plan, hopefully.
Instead of chasing a possible fragile unicorn why not search for a 996 Turbo. Other than cost... I understand the Turbos are quite peaky and have an engine/drive system designed for the additional horsepower. Just a thought.
As long as the motor it tight crank case pressures should be the same. The boost is introduced to the intake to force and compress the air in the piston chamber.
The issue is the seals, gaskets and ability for the faseners in the aluminum case to stay together.
Very curious to hook my Durametric up to this car and see what it reveals. Have no idea if the SC system is even operable, watching a video about it as I type.
I could go through like, oh I don't know... 10, maybe 15 of them before getting to the cost of an 3.6 M96 rebuild...
ETA...Maybe on the first go it would be closer to 8K with the ECU...
As a frame of reference from the OP, if it happens that I get this car, it will not be tracked, but rather I'll get to enjoy the rush of a much faster 911 while I'm on my own in the middle of nowhere. I wouldn't spend a bunch of money getting a SC, but if it comes with the car, and might be a deduct for many (like a pool is to a house), then it's worth considering if I don't hear a majority of horror stories, and so far I haven't.
I would guess that the piston ring end gaps are tighter on an N/A engine. Higher combustion temps from hotter air may make the gaps tighter and cause problems. Meth will certainly help. I certainly wouldn�t consider a power adder for this engine especially something run off of the crankshaft.
From my fast and the furious days, the best out there was vf engineering. If they do Ferraris, lambos, Aston martins, corvettes, c�maros, etc. I use to go to sema in Vegas for 13 years. I met a bunch of vf guys, pretty knowledgeable and professional, they always told me the difference with them was engineering, testing and reliability. Not to say that a small speed shop could do a good job. I have personally passed on two sc cars and one of them had the vf kit stage 2, Like some have said here buy a turbo if money is no object,
FYI, about 10 years ago in (I think) the magazine Porsche Excellence had a write-up about a guy that either turbo-charged or super-charged his 996 engine. Don't remember if it was a 3.4 or 3.6.
While that was a long time ago, his name and shops were listed that did the work. May help in flushing it out.
IMHO, I would steer clear. You can't use the extra HP on the street anyways and I doubt you would want to use it on the track from a longevity standpoint. After doing it, figure in an additional 20k for an engine rebuild once it implodes. May not be helpful on a resale as well.
Good project though for a Miata.
There is very little logic to the thought of doing it, but the price (mid 30s) makes it a turbo at half the price. You're right about not using it often on the street, but those times that I do should justify taking the step. Resale is a function of purchase price, however. If I added a SC to a stock car, it would hurt the price, but if I buy it cheap, then the downside risk is greatly minimized (unless the engine blows)
Along those lines, the dealer isn't sure about the IMS bearing having been done when the clutch was done. While it would make perfect sense, that doesn't give me the warm fuzzies about it, so there's that questionmark.
Have you ever tracked a car? The reason I ask, is that once you get on the track and learn the art of driving, street speed is like being in kindergarten. It doesn't matter. Not saying this to be difficult. Try a DE and you will see what I mean. The word supercharged will be replaced with set-up, braking, turn-in, and balance. Spend the 5 grand on making your car faster with set-up and engine durability. It will save you a lot of money and headaches in the long-run. And make you and your car faster.
Enjoy the car. It's awesome!😁
Spend some time in the for sale listings. I know that there have been a couple listed recently. Perhaps you can reach out to those owners or previous owners and get first hand experience.
I have a car with an aftermarket supercharger. Not an M96, it's a VR6 powered VW. With the supercharger installed I have driven the car about 15k miles and run about 75 or 80 track hours, maybe more.
The supercharger is nice in many ways. Boost is directly related to engine RPM so it's not going to destroy clutches or gearboxes like a turbo might. Also the boost is always there as soon as you open the throttle. I run 7-8 pounds of boost which is all that is reasonable on my engine with 10:0 compression ratio and no intercooler. In theory 7 pounds of boost adds 50% to the engine's base HP and in fact my car was dyno'd and showed 270 engine HP vs. 180 engine HP stock. It's like having 50% more displacement. Essentially I have a 4.2 liter VR6.
The downside is it's all reliant on the ECU/DME tune. At first I had a poor tune and performance wasn't so great. Driveability was so-so. Air/Fuel ratio is super critical on aftermarket forced induction engines. At wide-open I would see AFR's varying from 3.0 to 14.0 totally random. An AFR of 3.0 is so pig rich it blew smoke like a navy destroyer, 14.0 is so relatively lean it's in danger of burning a piston. Really about 11.8 is perfect. It took a change in engine management and several retunes to get it where it's just about perfect. Now, drivability is excellent, it drives just like a big normally aspirated engine.
Also there is a lot of power transmitted into the supercharger; those things turn FAST. My supercharger is a Vortech V9 F-trim compressor. Redline RPM on my supercharger is 49,000 RPM and I have set up the pulleys so that 7200 crank RPM (the rev limiter on my car) gives 47,500 supercharger RPM. At 47,500 RPM the supercharger consumes 50HP. Yes, fifty horsepower. That's a lot to push through a little serpentine belt! I change the belt every 1,000 miles or twice a year. If I don't change it that often the belt glazes up and slips at high RPM.
Another thing to consider is that the supercharger is turning those RPM all the time, even when you don't want or need boost. So, cruising on the highway my supercharger is spinning 25,000 RPM rather uselessly. Not much can be done about this other than drive slower or use taller gears.
Yet another thing is that when you're using all that new power you are burning more fuel and creating more heat in the engine. This is probably not so much of an issue for street driving as you'd rarely be at wide open throttle for more than a few seconds at a time. Running at the track - a different story. The M96 cooling system both water and oil is fairly marginal (see the oil pressure instability thread). The cooling system in my VW was similarly marginal and I have not been able to improve it very much. I've added an air-to-oil heat exchanger which helped somewhat. Now my car is absolutely fine driving on the street in any weather, I still have to watch the oil temp at the track.
My last point. I just bought a spare VR6 engine for this car for the princely sum of $230.00 so I am not too concerned about the inevitable engine failure. I would not be so cavalier about this with an M96 engine.
Unfortunately this car was bought at auction and I don't believe the selling dealer has any info on the SC installation, I only know its a SNOW Performance Kit and don't even know which of their kits it is or what tune it might have had done. Not even sure it's working properly. I hope to test drive it and will be driving my stock 996 4s there so I will have back-to-back driving experience and should clearly notice any difference. If it passes my initial inspection and test drive I will set up a PPI with a trusted indy and dig deeper on OP behalf. Bringing my durametric and my port radar detector along.
If the car has an AFR gauge watch it closely, especially at WOT while pulling to high RPM. You're wanting to see about 11.8 AFR. If that is what shows consistently then the tune is at least safe. While in steady state cruise the AFR should bounce around between 14.3 ish and 15.2 ish. Mild acceleration like 1/4 throttle should have the AFR stabilized at 12.8 to 13.2 ish. Closed throttle deceleration (coasting) could have the AFR as high as 22, which indicates the fuel is cut off.
If it doesn't have an AFR gauge, well, I'd be very suspect about how thorough the aftermarket supercharger install was. I do see some extra gauges.
I didn't realize the C/R was that high. I thought my 10:1 was pushing it. I do see an air to water intercooler which will help. And here's a rumor of water meth which is a help until you run out. Yes if the boost is over 5-ish pounds I'd want richer AFR than 11.8 given the high C/R. I would not want to see anything in the 10's though, that's inviting ring land failures. And I sure don't want to see anything leaner than 11.8.
Boosting anything that high C/R is a fine balancing act.
Methanol will boost octane, if I was running my hypothetical turbo charged boxster motor - I would 100% run on E85 for the octane benefit over street 93OCT.
Meth or denatured alcohol (my experience) was good back in the day as an octane booster BUT the injection systems I had experience with (remember this is 15 years ago) were not what I would call particularly robust with some pretty chincy parts. They worked but given the likelihood you melt a piston if it stops working, I would really rethink running a discrete injection setup now.
And really, with E85 you effectively have race gas octane levels available at the pump at the expense of needing to rework the fuel system to handle the extra capacity required. As an added benefit, E85 has been said to help the car run generally cooler. You do have to watch out for oil contamination which seems to be pretty common on high power E85 builds requiring frequent oil changes.
I and my sons generally run 1,2,3 at autobaun places, but that's as far as I'll go because with age comes a slowing of reflexes, and I'm at that point. Slide out in a go-cart and you hit a tire, do it at Barbers and it's embarrassing. Straight line acceleration trips my trigger just fine at my age.
Thinking forward, there's no way that I'm going to learn the science of SC easily, so here's a question...... my wife's Jag XJL is supercharged and it has no controls or gauges; it just screams when we push on the scream pedal. Isn't there a way to do that to any engine with SC, and if so, can't we dial the car to a moderate boost and leave it there?
I'm probably twice as old as many of you guys, so back when I was able to race, the much less expensive way to do it was with motorcycles, and I had a blast, but my last trophy is dated 1984, if that gives you a clue, lol. If I ever ran into a guy with enough grace and enough FU money to let me drive a car around a track, I'm sure I'd get hooked, but nothing like that around here, so if I do this deal, all I want to know is that the car and SC will hold together....and if there are any particular things to look for during an eyeball inspection.
I look forward to driving this ultimate unicorn SC 4s but my non mechanical business oriented brain keeps saying �If this really works why haven�t others on RL already tried this?� I think i know the answer.
My guess at an answer is money. If we buy something that fits our budget, then spending another $20,000 on a SC might be done AFTER spending $20,000 on other improvements, so there are not a lot of us that want to double our investment money. For those of us that don't care about re-sale, it's just a hobby to put money into, like golf or fishing. for those that look at the car as an investment, we'd never butcher our car with add-ons that hurt resale.
Yes, a SC car is a unicorn, but that can work for a lot of us. Me? I just want to go faster.
Curious because you mentioned your age. I am 56. Been tracking my 996 since 2004. When I first got it in 2002, I thought I needed more horsepower and all the other bs. Then a year later after I started tracking the car, my perspective changed about the car for the better. I realized that street speed was a waste of money because you will NEVER be able to use it.
I think you should realize that what you are asking is akin to "hey, what will the car be like with a 3 inch lift ?"
The fact of the matter is people can share their thoughts, but, since very few people have experience with what you're looking for, very few people can respond with actual experience.
Adding boost to an NA engine with this much static compression means there is a much finer margin for error with regards to keeping the engine happy and in 1 piece. It may be working great when you buy it and one day you accidentally put 87 in, or you run out of methanol, or the water pump for the water to air intercooler ****s the bed or etc, etc, etc. then - you put a hole in a piston and that hole costs you $20K
The reason putting a SC on our cars is like putting on a 3 inch lift is because although possible, it has not proven to be something people want to do and so very few people have done it.
Proceed into waters avoided with caution my friend.
Good points. To define what GC996 is talking about....I have zero interest in tracking the car, and will not track it as far as i know. The interest is singular; I would like to be pushed back farther into the seat when I step into the GO pedal; that's it. 5-10 seconds of acceleration at a time is what I would expect, and I'm the OP just because this car showed up, not because I am looking for one, but if you answer a Match ad for a nice lady, and Salma Hayak shows up at your door, what else is there to do but............enjoy?
For those that know SC cars, can a driver with my intentions reasonably expect the car to hold together? Again, if my wife's SC car takes no special care, can we dial in a SC 996 with the same level of goodness?
Those of us with an entrepreneurial spirit and sand for brains are just living our lives as 14 year olds. I'm just on my 5th lap, lol. Rationally, the car I have now is perfect, with less than 40K miles and everything works as new. Trouble is, when we lived at the beach I had 12 boats in 10 years, and once what I have is about perfect, I'm looking for something else to fix. I like to fix things
Logic isn't why we have our cars, IMO.
It would be very interesting to know how many miles have been put on this 4s since this mod was installed. That fact alone might shed light on its reliability. Couldn�t have been many of these kits sold to 4s owners.
On the flip side, unless my Internet searches were wrong, this appears to be an inexpensive mod, looks like $500 plus install, so maybe this car really needs to go back to stock and enjoy life as a true NA machine.
This car, when i step on it, will either make me say �hell yes!� or �hell no!�.
At 73 do whatever the F you want and can afford to do. I�m 60 and have driven almost 40,000 911 miles in the past 2.5 years. I have to make up for the 40 years I didn't get to drive a 911 and I only have what, 10-15 more years to get all those miles in.
That said this car is a binary event in the making. You will either win or have a nice piece of lawn art.
Of course thats assuming I don�t destroy the engine in a few days.
If you search here, you will find that back when our cars were new, there were several guys on this forum that supercharged their 996s. There were a few who tracked their cars on a regular basis. The three supercharger systems were the Vortech system, the TPC system, and the RUF system. The owner of Evolution Motorsports installed one on his wife's car.
The three systems were featured in Excellence magazine, Total 911 magazine, and European Car magazine. All of the guys that had the supercharged 996s have moved on to GT3s, turbos, etc. If you search user name Redridge, he had a beautiful Millennium edition with the EVO Vortech system. He told me that his was faster than a stock 996tt.
What a disappointment!!! 4s looked nice from the outside except for the curb rash all around. Liked the aftermarket steering wheel and the factory short shifter as well but that's about it. Sunroof only tilts open, doesn't retract. Both step plates said Carrera and didn't have the 4s. Frunk was disgusting as shown below. Started the car and is sounded un-Porsche like, and that's being generous. Loud squealing from the engine compartment. Listen to the attached video, who would sell a 911 sounding like this!!! Opened the coolant and took the attached photo, Not sure if that reddish brown color is normal. Car had the heaviest clutch I ever felt and was in need of brakes immediately. Accelerated OK but with lots of shaking. Didn't get that Supercharged feeling or really feel anything special. If I were blindfolded and was told I was in a 911 I would call you a liar. Went for a 10 minute drive and every second I just wanted to be done with this car, sorry OP.
Prior to the test drive I first stopped at my Indy to inquire about a PPI should it pass stage 1. He wouldn't have a slot for 2 weeks and when I asked if he had any experience with SC on 996 he said he had a customer who tried and it was an endless rabbit hole of issues.
OP, if you MUST have a widebody and more hp just pay up and get a 996tt, you will have minimal resale downside and will get what you want. Better to pay 2x the price and get the enjoyment you want and then get all your $ back, or more, vs buying this POS. Sorry to be the bearer of bad new but this unicorn should be humanely destroyed.
You know, when we look at cars that are far away, this forum shows it's worth in GOLD, because no way would any of us buy something without inspection by somebody that we might not know, but has a similar mindset. OPTIONMAN is the real deal, because he's looked at two cars and has been invaluable as a resource.
Thank you, that's the most I can offer, but when you get down to the coast, lunch is on me for a small way to say Thank You.!
Are you thinking a belt, so another kind of squeal like a SC bearing? Not asking for any reason besides interest in mechanics. The car is history to me, thanks to your inspection.
To my naive ear it sounded like the pulley/belt and it was audible inside the cabin at all times. Just a car that has been driven hard and put down wet as they say.
WOW! Everything in the engine compartment looks really crusty! How do you even change that intake filter? Drop the engine? Pull the water tank? Disassemble all of the SC piping? Much less the scream from Hell.
Run...Run away!
This is killin' me. What I deserve in life is a nicely sorted out X50, and the bartender said my budget needs to stay with beer. She hasn't heard a word I've said for 50 years, sheesh!
Here's a question for you. Let's say that the car was as advertised, and ran like a scalded cat, and looked as good as the photos. Given that Salvage titles seem to be getting more and more common because of insurance company protocols, would you look at the car as a driver at a price point that is half that of a TT?
Calculated risk. let me hang a SC onto the car I now drive and it's going to work because the base car is fine. the Calculated Risk is when you find a car without history or records, so the lure is price. When the car doesn't work right and the dealer said it does, we all walk away, wondering what the dealer was thinking. The search continues...
ok I don�t know if any of this is real. We for sure know it is a salvage title car. So definitely I would drive it and make sure it goes straight. Does the engine makes thicking noises? Hook it up to a durametric. Does it smoke. Do a invasive ppi. So if this is a 100k mile car. It runs fine , no check engines store codes etc, coupe 6 speed no oil leaks. I think $25k would be acceptable. So what does the dealer will take for this car???
Here it is:
https://idealautousa.com/listings/20...11-carrera-4s/
Dealer hasn't provided much information besides what's in the ad, and I'm not sure whether Optionman was able to do the Durametric on it. The simple fact that it didn't run right was all we needed to end this. I would consider a trade-off of a salvage title for a supercharger if the car had manners, but a lack of history and receipts put too many variables into the negative column....at least for me.
if it ran ok on a test drive, I would offer $25k for it. I know a shop that would be able to sort it out. Anyway no way they would sell it to me for $25k, keep on looking. A guy got a nice looking targa for 28k. Is in the price thread. Deals are harder to find but are out there.
I think your pricing is reasonable. I had made a preliminary offer of $30K with him installing new tires and paying for transport to me, but that was assuming that his description of how it ran was accurate. Taking another $5K off as a reserve for sorting it out would be appropriate, IMO.
yeah here in Houston quite a few of the shops are heavy into mods. I have a friend who has a protomotive built 3.9 twin turbo that is out of this world 920 hp at the wheels. This car also has a methanol injection set up for additional horsepower if that was ever necessary. The shop where this one of a kind has been put together is called Driversource. On top of all of that I have a mechanic that I just go to his house and he works on it so real reasonable. Speed gets expensive pretty fast.
I drove the car hoping to find a way to like it, I couldn't. Did you hear what it sounded like? Yes it pulled hard, but there wasn't the grip I know I get in my 996 4s. The car needs an alignment for sure, it just didn't handle or feel like a 911 should. The methanol tank in the frunk was half full of liquid but the salesman said he hadn't turned on the injection set-up using the center horseshoe aftermarket gauge because he had no idea if it was working or even how it worked. On my test drive I did try to turn it on but didn't notice any change in anything when I did. I will post some of the Durametic quick test results and I apologize for the poor pictures, it was very bright.
All of us have our own reasons and expectations, and for me this supercharged car just showed up; it wasn't part of a quest. However, if a waiter brings your steak and then says that he can also bring you lobster and a great dessert for no extra cost, who's going to argue?
Dang, Marty, that's a whole lot of faults for a dealership that seems to offer higher end cars. I wonder why they'd buy a one-off car and then not learn how to use it.
I got the impression this dealership deals with lots of auction buy/flips. They clean them up and push them out the door. From the outside the car is a 7 (i got a chuckle when I saw the front lip trim was the same turbo version I accidently put on my 4s recently), but anyone who drives Porsches couldn't really be impressed by the performance and the lack of any flat 6 sound. All in all someone took a great car and ruined it, just my opinion. OP, the 997.1 S I tested for you was a much better car for the $, but it's 2" narrower than the wide body you want. I know someone wanting to part with a 996tt X50 cab low mileage, but its gonna run close to $70k. Again, don't see much downside to paying up for a 996tt but its not my $.
