After 12 spectacular days, I'm out of the 996 club: engine self destructed at 10mph

Hey everyone, I have extremely disheartening news. You might remember me and my car from the Baffling Fuel Injector Faults and Misfires: need help! thread, but the short of it was that I bought the car, spent 9 months and as many grand sorting out an electrical gremlin that turned out to be grounding issues elsewhere in the engine, and just recently got the fixed car back. I had 12 spectacular days and maybe 450 miles of driving it, top down 95% of the time, spirited rides given to friends, smiles all the way, and then... Three days ago I was out running errands in the car. As I was on the highway making my way home, I hit rush hour traffic and found myself going about 10mph in the left lane. Car had been running great (just a couple of seconds of rough running while leaving a parking lot earlier in the day that I'd attributed to not revving it enough before releasing the clutch with the AC on) and the engine was fully warmed up, but then as I was coasting along (literally coasting: clutch was pushed in and the only load on the engine was running the AC) the "check engine" light and associated "drive to shop" message popped up for just a couple of seconds. I had just enough time to think "oh brother, what's it going to be now" before ALL the lights in the dash came on at once like the "test" mode you see before you start the car. It took me a couple of seconds to figure out that my engine had died because there was no abnormal noises, no jerking/juddering, no smoke: just one moment it's running and the next moment it's not! I used what little momentum I had to pull into the half-shoulder and attempt a restart. Engine would turn over, but not fire, so I figured it had to be something like the fuel pump and called AAA for a flatbed tow. The next morning my mechanic emailed me: Took a couple of days, but I just got the final word back a few moments ago: it's fatal. He can't be 100% confident without taking everything apart, but he's highly confident that my timing chain jumped teeth and caused all sorts of associated damage to cylinders 5 and 6. At this point, it looks like my options are: Sell it as a roller and hope to get $7-8k for it (I still owe $16k on my loan from purchasing it!) Try to obtain an engine for it, which I've gotten the general impression would cost $14k installed on the low end (with all the associated M96 risks) and much higher for a proper FSI rebuild. Self-rebuilding the engine would be cheaper for someone with the time/space/tools to do so, but I have none of those. My savings took a pretty severe hit from finding/fixing those misfires, so both of the above are really terrible options. I honestly have no idea what I'm going to do. I haven't even finished half of the beer that @Dr_Strangelove sent me to celebrate it being fixed! It just doesn't make any sense! I could understand an older engine failing during the stress of spirited driving, but a spontaneous self-destruct at idle/no load with no warning signs?! Anyway, felt like I should fill all of you in since so many of you had gotten emotionally invested in the misfire thread and in the hopes that someone might be aware of some other options I should consider. Here are the "glamour" shots I took of it on the first day of having the car fixed:

Oh man and I'm the first to see this, too... My heart is breaking for you, Shawn. What a horrible follow-up.

That is just awful .There are options ,unfortunately none that are low cost .A used engine properly prepared is probably the lowest cost solution .Swapping 996 engines is really not that difficult .Perhaps the indy you used before could give you a rough idea on cost .There are reputable Porsche recyclers out there that give a limited warranty on their engines .If it were me I would not spend a lot of money trying to figure out what broke -if I had to pay 125.00 hour .You might be a little light on the roller value but winter is coming and it's a cab .

Ouch! Sorry for your pain. Something similar happening to the 2000 C4 Cab that I just bought is my greatest fear. Love the car but all of the words of warning that I've read and stories like yours have got me spooked Fingers crossed.

Hate to see that, but I would get a second opinion.

So sorry to hear this! For anyone reading please do not attempt to start a motor that just shut down (per JR) as the collateral damage can cause a lot more $$ in repairs. Timing chains in 02's he said fail to often. I'd consider a Porsche shortblock if a full rebuild is out of the question. Again, so sorry to read of this.

[Image-only post; no author-written text. Original image references:] https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/bigcry.gif

Damn, OP - that sucks. As much as I hate to say something like this when you're already down - it's not directed at you, so please don't assume that I'm aiming for your ribs. Unless you are an amazing mechanic and/or you happen to have three extra heaps of money lying around: never, ever, ever, ever, ever buy someone else's project car. Deep breath, consider ALL options before doing anything that will potentially convert more of your currency into smoke and ash.

Wow, very sorry to hear this.

Thats awful, I would just take a deep breath and wait until you have concrete answer before getting upset. How could you sell it as a roller if you have a loan on it? You would have to pay it off first right? I have had a timing chain go before. The whole thing had to come apart. It was ugly. Thats the sole I check Cam deviation every month. Damn, I kinda feel like selling my car now. Hope better news comes along!

Damn, that's just horrible news. Feel your pain. Hope things work out in the best way possible.

I feel your pain. If I even sense a wrong noise in the car I have a moment of "this is it, this is where all the joy ends."

Quotes source post: 15761170

You should listened to Jake back in April, him without seeing and pics, sounds or having your car in his shop told you the problem. Now is too late Think with your financial brain, if you still owe $16000 the car belongs to the bank,you can't sell it as a roller until paid in full. 1- Pay the remaining balance in full and pretend you just did a 6 months lease of a brand new Lamborghini Huracan and called a painful day. (Sell it as a roller to recover at least 50-40% of the lost). 2- If paying the balance in full is not an option and you can't take care of the debt in the next 6 months, apply for a credit card that you can transfer the balance and do the payments to the credit card. 3- If the other 2 are not an option, put a cover on it and keep doing your monthly payments till the balance is paid in full. I'm really sorry to hear this is just first experience with a P-car and I would never blame you for never ever consider buying and old out of the warranty Porsche, best of luck

Sorry to read the horrible tale of woe, Shawn.

SON...OF...A...B---CH! that stinks...

Sounds almost like a broken chain, but if it were you�d have P0304,0305, and 0306 codes. The fact that you don�t sounds like a dropped valve seat on cylinders 5... That seat could have been loose for a while before it finally fragged out. This would explain the compression imbalance and the single P0305 code. It could also explain a little about what you�d been chasing before. That said, pull the green plugs at the cam tunnels and rotate the crank by hand. See if the cams are turning. If they are, that rules out a snapped chain. If the cams are rotating then put the engine at TDC and take a pic of where the slots are at the end of the cams(visible with the green cam plugs removed) and post that here. Then pull the spark plug on cylinder 5. If it won�t easily back out of the head, we know that something exploded in that cylinder and the plug has been damaged to the point that it can�t be removed. In this case a dropped valve seat sounds very probable as this is the most major 2002 infliction that we see. If the spark plug can be removed, the bore scope will tell the cylinder and piston condition well. If you find chunks, you dropped a seat.

Quotes source posts: 16102773, 16102819, 16102822, 16102838

Thanks Adam. I told the service manager over at the dealership and he doesn't even have the heart to tell H (the tech), so I'm going to break the news to him when I deliver their portion of the beer the next time I'm on that side of town (they certainly earned it!). Yeah, I'm definitely going to be researching all of my options. Please let me know if you happen to know who any of the reputable ones are! If I go the roller route I'm hoping the matching hardtop and second set of wheels with winter rubber will work in my favor. That fear was exactly why I refused to even pick up the "fixed" car until the AOS was done! I just can't figure out how a company that makes such fantastic cars is so utterly terrible at building engines. I'm curious: considering the cost required, why do you think that'd be worthwhile? Even if the guy who diagnosed it is somehow wrong about the timing chain it seems like any other possibility still ends with the same "fatal failure" conclusion.

Quotes source posts: 16102891, 16102921, 16102968, 16103044

It's good advice. I probably would have remembered and followed it if there'd been any sort of bang/lurch/smoke associated with the failure, but between sticking half into a lane in rush hour traffic and the "silent" nature of the failure really threw me off. Also good advice. Everything pointing to the bad ECU seemed reasonable when I was looking at mine and the mechanicals all seemed to check out, but I'm VERY much regretting buying this particular car, Absolutely correct about having to pay off the loan at the time of the sale, my point in mentioning the loan was to illustrate that I'm facing a pretty severe financial hit even if I don't try to repair the car. Definitely puts a damper on the fun, doesn't it? I was just beginning to have enough miles driven to start believing that it was finally sorted (and planning for future work like a clutch job and maybe center radiator!).

Quotes source post: 16103149

I'm guessing you missed a few pages of that prior thread (I mean, it was pretty long!), but both a compression test and leak-down test were performed by a Porsche Gold level technician this summer and did not reveal anything of concern. The misfire problems I was dealing with turned out to be bad grounds on the #1/2/3 ignition coils and once those were rectified the car ran perfectly for over 500 miles. This week's failure appears to be a completely unrelated mechanical failure.

Sorry to hear about this. If it makes you feels any better I put over $40,000 in my 996 (including purchase price) over 27 months and traded it in for $15,000 so you could still finish this coming out better than I did.

Quotes source post: 16103343

Thanks Jake, I was hoping you'd see this thread! Even if you didn't have any miraculous ideas to save the car I hoped you might have an idea that'd explain the Bizarro World circumstances of it kicking the bucket while coasting under idle load. It was like Scotty beamed the engine right out of the car: it was running great and then a moment later it was just silently gone! Before I spend any more money on diagnosing it: would any of those situations you outlined offer any hope? I'm a very curious person in general and I'd genuinely love to know what it really was that killed it, but under the circumstances it's hard to justify if the answer is purely academic.

Quotes source post: 16103414

OUCH!!!! What happened?! Did you eventually trade it in because you were just fed up with it?

That sucks. Didn't read all the posts in this thread. If you love the car, get a used motor. Cost me $12k, for motor and installation. Have you read my thread? If not, I suggest you do so. EVERY option is analyzed in depth. Years later, car is still running great, has needed no repairs, but I sold it to a friend. Jake even bought my blown motor, which was VERY much appreciated. I think he wanted it for one of his excellent classes. Thanks, Jake!!

Don't "throw the baby out with the bath water" just yet. Have your mechanic do a compression test on bank 2. If only cylinder 5 has low compression then the timing chain is NOT broken. It could have a dropped valve seat (like Jake said) or a broken valve spring. If only number 5 cylinder has low compression, then use a bore scope to see if piston damage can be assessed. You might get lucky and only need a head repair.

Quotes source post: 16103431

It involves an uninformed buyer, a couple IMS bearings, an engine rebuild, trip to california, a steering rack, a brand new failed AOS, some tires, throw in some paranoia and the need for an SUV. I really want to know where the car is now. Anyway, don�t have much in the way of recommendations. Good luck with whatever you decide.

Quotes source post: 16103414

Yep. The game is all over the place. I bought my 03 in 2013 for 20. Put 20 into it in Fabspeed, IMSB, yadda, yadda, yadda. Then motor blew. 12k, and I was good to go. Years later, it was rear-ended and totaled. Got about 39k in insurance. Went from this to this. So. All worked out fine.

So sorry to hear of this. These cars are such a blast, but that blast comes at an ugly cost sometimes. I feel like crap now because I was going to rant about getting the sticky crap adhesive off the wheel weights/rims so I can take the rims in for new tires tomorrow. I got nothing to say now. Hope it works out for you. Take a breath and maybe some great advice given by the others can make it work out.

Quotes source post: 16102745

No one in their right mind would take out a loan to buy one of these ticking time bombs. I hope you can get out of it somehow and learn a valuable lesson. These types of toys require disposable income and should never be purchased with borrowed money.

Quotes source post: 16103723

Dude, really...You're going to kick the guy in the nuts while he's down? Not everyone is "rich" like you! I suggest you edit your post!

Quotes source post: 16103429

There�s always hope. If we can resurrect engines that have holes blown in them, this repair sounds minimal. That said, you need to diagnose what happened. BTW- that compression test you mentioned above, done by the �gold level tech� means nothing unless it was a running compression test. 15 years ago I learned that a static compression test meant zilch to these engines, and is a total, and complete waste of time, money, and human life. If you owe 16k on the car, you have to realize that walking away from it as a roller is going to net you less than 1/2 of what you owe, in reality. At the same time, a used engine, or half *** built �cheap� rebuild is going to put you right back here again. Repairing the engine that you have is the best choice, as long as collateral damages are limited. If a valve seat did fail, the damage is extensive, even if the failure occurred at low speed. Start with diagnosis, determine the extent of the damage, and then decide which way to go. On top of what I outlined in my prior post, also remove the oil sump plate and carry out a debris inspection there, as well as the oil filter. Photograph that and post it here. Now, all the misfires and poor running that you had before could have easily catalyzed this mechanical failure. Misfires are like hitting the internal components with a 10# hammer.

First, I'm really sorry to hear of this misfortune - my heart goes out to you. Second, listen to Jake Raby - better yet, tell your "gold level mechanic" to listen to Jake Raby. No matter how you approach this, it's going to be expensive, so it's imperative you only have to do it once. If that means selling it as is and taking the hit now, so be it. If you decide to fix/re-build it, don't go halfway. Good luck

Quotes source post: 16103849

Exactly...

They won't... They took a test that was prepared by someone that knew less than they did, and they passed it. They have a freaking piece of paper hanging over their tool box that says they don't have to listen to anyone's direct experience. They didn't grow up working on tractors, and never laid in the mud in a junk yard scavenging parts in the rain as a teenager.. They can ace a test, but can't work their way out of a cardboard box with a sledgehammer. There are exception.. Very few, very far between. The last one I hired lasted 3 weeks.

Shaun, I truly understand your pain...virtually the same thing happened to my beloved '99. After flat bedding it to the nearest Porsche guru (90 miles away and $500 lighter in my wallet) for more definitive diagnostics, it was declared a "catastrophic failure". I was demoralized. Following several discussions with my forgiving spouse and my financial advisor, I decided to go the "fully rebuilt" used engine...the only parts that were re-used were the crank, rods, and that's about it. Well, assuming no more huge unforeseen expenses and given a couple more months of financial austerity, I should be recovered. Meanwhile, the 996 runs like a new car...I kid you not. Oil pressure is strong, all fluid temps are with in range, and now with about 500 gentle break-in miles on it, I can attest it "pulls like a champ". But my faith In Porsche engineering has been badly shaken. Bottom line, bud, hang in there and hope for the best. Life is short...and there are few guarantees. Regards, relinuca

Quotes source post: 16103723

Sadly, you speak truth. My insurance agency sent me a personal letter last week asking about my intentions on driving the 996. In the 30+ years as a client of this agency, this is the first time they ever sent such a letter. Makes me think that I'm considered a high risk which means they intent to raise my premiums. We'll see. I bought my Porsche with my "fun money" and know good and well that owning any Porsche can be an expensive risk, but I've loved every minute.

Sorry to hear, stories like this make me want to sell mine.

Quotes source post: 16103849

You nailed it! I know people see me as a fanboy of Raby, but I've been following his writings for years going back to the type-4 days. I don't understand why people simply ignore his advice on the M96 and M97 engines. When he tells you to change a leaking or discolored expansion tank and ONLY use genuine Porsche replacements - do it! When he says don't install a water pump with metal impellers - do it! When he says use the right oil with the proper additive package for the right application - then do it! When he tells you to regularly examine the oil filters for metal contaminants and NOT overfill with oil - then do it! When he tells you to not ignore the typical signs (sooty tail pipe, bank2 ticking, oil consumption, etc.) of cylinder bore scoring. do it. When he says that intermix needs to be cleaned out immediately, don't wait, do it! When he says avoid letting these M96 cars idle at startup, then get in and drive! When he says don't punch it until the car warms to 180F, then be patient and let the car do its thing before hitting high rpms! When he says the ball and roller type IMS bearings are wear items, then change them out as preventative maintenance! On and on it goes. Cheers people!

Quotes source post: 16104020

Being a long term client of an insurance company means nothing to them anymore. I would write them back and say: Of course I'm not going to drive it! I spent a wad of money to buy it why would I ever think of driving it? I'm just going to park it and stare at it. P.S.: I have no use for insurance companies! Only time I hear from my guy is to try to sell me some investment scheme that he will profit greatly from selling and I would lose money if purchased. Note to sell: Solicite other insurance providers for quotes.

That sucks. I blew my engine (admittedly on track and how it should expereience a death) but luckily, I got 179k miles out of her before she went. At 99k miles, I did experience a valve seat failure and was lucky in that I was at a gas station. There were 'nicks' from the debris on the surface of the cylinder but after spending some money on the teardown of the engine, replacing the valve seats, the car continued for another 80k miles before the final nail in the coffin. I decided to just shelve the car (although I had already owned it outright for years) until I was financially able to absorb the cost to get another engine. I finally did after 2 years of the car collecting dust with an empty engine bay and was lucky to buy engine/trans for $8k. Although that cost is moot because it's getting a 4.0 done which will make it another $20k. Needless to say, i'm gonna insure the car at stated value instead of normal and enjoy the car. Porsches aren't anywhere near cheap anymore and my 4s without sunroof has me attached emotionally to it. You just have to decide if the car you have is the very car you LOVE that warrants the $ that it may cost to resurrect it. Good luck in what you decide. Maybe there is another car that you get later that will regain your confidence. Cars are wierd thing. I see them as tools and have working for a car company makes me see them as tools to do a job more than ever. But I don't think I'd ever part with my c4s. Too many awesome experiences I've had with it.

Quotes source post: 16103937

This is true, the piece of paper doesn't mean as much as experience and common sense. I had a service manager one time back in the 80's who had an Engineering degree from a big time college, he had also taken the ASE Auto certification tests all 8 of them and passed which gave him a Master ASE certification(.I was also an ASE Master) Then I had to help him diagnose and repair a sticking turbocharger wastegate on his single engine airplane,he had no clue The next week he buys a dual engine Chreokee with retractable landing gear and on his first flight lands it without putting down the landing gear!! And to think I had flown with this guy !!!

Quotes source posts: 16103451, 16103453, 16103466, 16103456

Sounds like a good thread to read! I was looking at @wsrgklt 's excellent rebuild comparison thread last night and I'll make yours the next in the list. Glad to hear it worked out well! I'm trying not to get my hopes up, but based on yours and Jake's advice I'll be emailing my mechanic to get more info on what exactly he's learned (our "it's fatal" phone conversation yesterday was light on details because I didn't have a lot of time and the conclusion seemed so confident) and as long as he doesn't come back with something that'll definitely eliminate the possibilities you're talking about I'm planning on having him do the forensic work you two recommended. I'm not sure how much difference a head repair would make, maybe an 11k rebuild vs a 13k one?, but I need to know how bad things are before I can make an informed decision about what to do. If you don't mind my asking, how'd you get so much from your insurance for it? I thought most policies didn't take improvements like rebuilds into account! Sounds like my luck! Yeah, I definitely wonder what became of some of my former cars.

Quotes source posts: 16103492, 16103775, 16103849

I know the feeling! I felt like crap yesterday evening for posting a thread complaining about a blown engine on a luxury car while I was reading an article about a family whose daughter was held hostage by ISIS for years. Yeah, that's a good point about the compression test since I suspect it was done static. I guess the only real value it might have is a baseline against my indy mechanic's compression test this week (the previous test was done by the dealership guy who finally found the grounding issue: I had it towed to the Indy this week because I knew he was good with mechanical problems (if not as much electrical) and he'd be able to look at it right away vs waiting potentially for weeks on the dealership. You might be right about the misfires leading to this as well. We'd been operating under the assumption that most/all of the misfires weren't doing much harm because everything pointed to "missed fire because no fuel was sent to the cylinder to burn" misfires vs "wrongly-timed firing" misfires, but maybe that wasn't always the case. Hopefully I'll get more info from the mechanic first thing Monday morning. Based on that I'll probably have him do the tasks you recommended here and in your earlier post. Thanks. Yeah, the key will be figuring out what fixing it "right" means in my case (certainly not the cheapest option, but also not the "supreme" option of an FSI rebuild as much as I'd love one).

Quotes source posts: 16103937, 16104005, 16104020, 16104070, 16104073

Is that why you're so reluctant to expand your operation? Your reputation for perfectionism and quality are certainly well-earned, but I'll admit I've always been a bit confused about why you're so vocal in your insistence on not growing to better meet the level of demand you clearly have. I'd love, love, love an FSI engine, but even if I could scrape together that kind of money the lengthy wait time would be a significant barrier (not to mention I've got no idea how to answer your opening "do you LOVE this car?" question when I haven't even driven it enough to get past the honeymoon phase and decide!). If you don't mind my asking, what'd your rebuild end up costing? Where did you have it done? Absolutely dumbfounded at this question! How do you even answer that? What did the original valve seat repair cost you? I'm sure the damage from mine is worse, but it'd be good to get a rough baseline compared to the discussions in the "full rebuild" threads. Considering my profession: that's a very, very scary story. Can't just pull over a Cherokee or 737 when a mechanic with no common sense gets something wrong!

I wanted to pass on my brother's experience with a 2000 996 cab, beautiful car midnight blue/gray convertible. It was a really nice car, Porsche dealership serviced on time for everything and it ran great until, without any warning, a valve spring failed and destroyed the block. This was around 90,000 miles. He wrote Porsche in Stuttgart and received no help. So he sold it to someone when he found out that a refurb engine was $14K. He now drives an Audi. So, he did everything according to the factory recommendations, no telltale signs and boom, catastrophic metallurgic failure. I own a 1995 993 (60K) and a 1988 944 turbo S (156K). Both have been stellar, just normal maintenance and a lot of clean oil. Both drive as new. I know I'll probably get blowback from the 996 community because I don't drive one, but Shawn if you aren't attached to your 996, you might look at other types. Or, maybe, a good diagnostic and rebuild as Jake Raby discussed will make the engine better than new from the factory. You know, at least in my brother's case, this was a new Porsche engine and it had teething problems. No doubt enthusiasts and people like Jake have improved upon engine from the factory. That said, sorry to see this happened to you, I know my brother was really upset at Porsche and I would be also. Good luck.

Quotes source post: 16104073

I got a degree from one of those big time engineering colleges in Atlanta. I was wise enough to know at a young age that I knew nothing. Georgia Tech thought me how to think and solve a problem. They didn't teach me much that was practical. It takes time to learn from experience, sometimes decades. That's why I would never raise my nose to a competent mechanic or tradesman. A lot of these guys are just as intelligent as I am, and most of them have more practical knowledge than I do. Arragant people really annoy me.

Quotes source post: 16104053

F'n Insurance company's! I just went in for a safety check and couldn't find a current card in the glove box, only the old one (expired 4/19)...So I call to get one sent out and discovered that my policy had been put in suspense and I've been driving with no coverage for the past 5 months, WTF! They can't give me an answer why this happened as the person who made the change no longer works for the company (All State) I am about to blow a gasket over this. I wish I could get my 40 years of premiums back...Stay tuned as I get to the bottom of this. Shawn, hang in there bud! You've made it this far and if there's anything I can do to help, ask.

Quotes source post: 16104466

You are one of the few! I certainly respect your point of view, and wish that more felt the same way. Analytical engineering seems to have taken over, and I think a lot of that is because the modern crowd didn't grow up wrenching on things on a farm, to learn that they had mechanical aptitude that would drive them to be practical engineers. I think that's one reason why the current way of building things just good enough has become so mainstream for pretty much everything, everywhere. A few months ago one of my tenants had n "emergency". The screw holding the faucet handle on the shower fell out, and he could not turn the shower off.. He called in a panic. I checked it out, and found the fastener in the tub.. He didn't know how to thread it back in, or what it was even called. I fixed it with my multi- tool in about 10 seconds. This was not the first time I had to fix something for them like this, the last time his wife clogged the septic system flushing "feminine products" down the drain. The guy looked at me and said "You are amazing, how did you learn how to do all the things that you do?" I replied: "I grew up in the mountains, the only plumber in the county was a drunk, with no driver's license. We didn't have anyone to call at midnight when something happened, so we had to be able to do everything ourselves." I am currently working with my daughter's school to create a "practical application" curriculum for an elective class in life skills. From changing a door handle, to assembling a lawn mower engine, I hope it unlocks one mechanical mind that would otherwise be lost..

Just heard back from my mechanic about what he did last week: IMS was replaced with an LN Single Row Pro Retrofit two owners ago (10/24/2016 at 93,945 miles, car had 99,930 miles at failure), so I'd be shocked if that was the source of the failure. I'm thinking we should drop the sump to see what's in there. What else would make sense based on what he said?

Quotes source post: 16107410

He should have looked for cam movement on bank 2 while he was turning the engine by hand, then depending on if the cams were moving or not, do a borescope.It would have given us much more information on failure analysis.

Sounds just like what happened to my roller's motor. Could this be a IMS sprocket loose on the shaft?

�IMS was replaced with an LN Single Row Pro Retrofit two owners ago (10/24/2016 at 93,945 miles, car had 99,930 miles at failure), so I'd be shocked if that was the source of the failure� I�d be amazed if the engine was qualified before the bearing was replaced. Roughly 6k miles before failure? Hmmmm

Quotes source post: 16107741

Original bearing wasn't failed at the time of install, but the shop that did it definitely wasn't an LN "Preferred Installer" (not that he had a lot of options: there aren't any preferred installers in the entire state of Montana). Still, even with a non-preferred shop, I'd be surprised if the IMS was the cause. Jake might be right that the bad-grounding misfires created the conditions that led to my failure. I guess we'll see once some more forensics happen. I'm currently planning on having the sump dropped and following porschetech3's recommendation of looking for cam movement while hand-rotating. It'll probably be a few days before my mechanic has time to work on it again so that to-do list will probably grow as more suggestions come in here. I haven't made any big decisions yet: waiting to see what more we learn about my failure, reading up on the various discussions of the options, and spending a LOT of time thinking/praying about the financial side of things.

As a person who got a 996 cab with a blown engine for next to nothing; let me say $7000-8000 is really hopeful in terms of recouping money. I don�t want to be a downer but want to encourage you to be realistic. FWIW, with my roller 996; I swapped in a 3.2 Boxster S engine and have happily put about 4,500 miles on in the last year and a half. Haven�t even tuned the ecu yet as I haven�t seen the need as it runs so well. The engine I bought had a replaced dual row LN bearing and cost me $3,000. It�s not for everyone but; it�s the cheapest way to get back on the road.

Ugh, so sorry to hear this, makes me sick... my heart goes out to you. Not sure where you�re at with the next steps, but wanted to pass along the link below should you wish to investigate. Doesn�t look like a homerun, and I�d have a lot of questions for the seller, but it might be at least one option to get the car back on the road and sellable as a complete car should you wish to go that route... https://www.6speedonline.com/forums/...84k-miles.html

You know, it was a while ago and the valve seat replacement (engine removed and totally taken apart) was about $3k IIRC. I had a whole bunch of stuff done at that point that included LN Engineering IMS bearing, water pump, etc, etc. etc. The total came out to $10k but I do remember the valve seat part of it being 'reasonable'

Quotes source post: 16107238

You know, I am always surprised at not only the lack of 'life skills' but more importantly not even having the curiousity bug. Too many people doing stuff for them over the years on the most basic of life skill stuff. No motivation, no nothing. I mean, i'm no mechanic other than the basic track prep stuff and I can figure stuff out but it is baffling to me how people exist without curiousity on how stuff works and even attempting to diagnose/learn/etc.

Quotes source post: 16105487

Allstate is one of the worst insurance companies period. Just do some searching for Allstate McKinsey Consulting and you will see why.

Really sorry to hear about this failure, never fun reading about these. We're all here for you! You've the very best people in this thread though - I hope it all works out for you.

So sorry to hear this. I'll be monitoring your new thread for updates. Mike

Quotes source post: 16109012

I couldn�t agree more. Used them from the time I got my drivers license until the day I bought my C4s (almost 25yr) and never filed a single claim. In my haste to acquire the 911 I ultimately chose, I failed to secure insurance until I was driving to St Louis to pick it up and after a call to my agent, they wouldn�t even insure me on the car! Blew in a call to progressive and was covered in 10min. Once home, I quickly cancelled my policy with Allstate on my other four vehicles and haven�t looked back. Def a wake up call that proved they did not value a long time customer that had handed them my hard earned dollars for a quarter of a century and had never asked for anything in return.

Quotes source posts: 16105487, 16107238, 16108479, 16108751

Catching up on a few replies here: Absolutely unreal. And I bet you still paid for those five months in advance! Yes, please keep us updated! That's great! I'm a very curious person and generally think of myself as mechanically-minded, but I'll confess that I still lack a lot of those "basic" skills because I've never had the opportunity (teacher, tools, or both) to learn them, so I wish I'd been able to take exactly that sort of class! Even on some of my projects around the house there's often an unfortunate calculus of "by the time I buy the tools I'll really only need for this one job, figure out how to do it, screw up, and get it right on the second try I'd be time and money ahead by bringing in my handyman [great guy who treats me well and charges fairly] and picking up an extra trip at work." I was also just talking with a coworker who was telling me about how the value of a lot of truly classic cars like 60s Mustangs are plummeting and he attributes a large portion of that to the idea that nobody turns wrenches anymore, so they don't have the skills or see the enjoyment of taking care of those machines. Thanks for the link! If I end up going the repair direction I'm leaning against a used engine because of all the risks involved (even if I can't get an RND/FSI there's a lot that could be done to improve my own engine over the course of a repair), but it's good to know what's out there. Thanks! If you happen across the paperwork I'd be very curious what else you did in the way of "while you're in there" to replace/improve the internals of the engine. As I was saying to jllphan: even if I can't go the RND/FSI route I at least want to emulate their "make it better" philosophy so I don't end up here again. Of course, since I intend to drive it year round that "must do" list might need to include nickies for scoring protection, so I'll probably be talking with Jake/Charles/EBS/etc once we know more about my failure even if my engine is like yours and doesn't require a full rebuild to get running again.

Quotes source post: 16103937

Been there done that. Funny how much of a motivation lack of money can be. If there is a will there is a way, everything else is just an excuse. Good luck to the OP, this is a $hitty situation to be in. Since unfortunately you can't do the work yourself, I would sell the car an move on.

Quotes source post: 16110195

You had too many options (money) and never were forced to do it yourself. You had a privileged life so don't beat up yourself too much. The values of the 60's cars is going down not because of lack of mechanics but because that generation of buyers are now too old to have disposable income. The next in line now are the late 70's and early 80's cars as the generation that was in high school when those cars were new are now old enough to afford the nostalgia that they cave. Same thing happened to the cars of the 50's 30 years ago.

Quotes source post: 16110279

Huh? I'm not sure why the value of 60's cars is going down but I don't think it's because we geezers from the 60's "are now too old to have disposable income." I'm not rich and live on a pension but I also own 6 vehicles, including the 996 that I just bought, and have more disposable income than I've ever had before. From what I see on this forum and others, it's very much the same for the rest of the Baby Boom Generation. Lots of time and $ to spend. It's just a matter of what to spend that time & $ on. In my case, it's cars, guns, knives, travel, wine, LPs and eating out now and then in both expensive and cheap places. I'm just not in the market for old muscle cars anymore. I owned some when they were new, why would I buy them now when they are almost 50 years old? The engines were great but the suspensions sucked and it would take a lot of $ to make them handle the way that cars handle now. I'd rather spend my car $ on later model cars that do not require that kind of modification. I assume that's at least part of the reason why the value of 60's cars is going down, if that's actually the case. More so that the lack of $ available to spend on them among people of my generation; many who have a lot more $ than I do based on the value of the cars they drive.

Show me where the 60's muscle car values have dropped, because every auction I've watched show otherwise.

Quotes source posts: 16110279, 16110279

Haha, no, quite the opposite: the only reason I was able to go to the college I did was because of that scholarship application dream team of great grades and a broke family! There are many other reasons why a person might not have had opportunity to learn those sorts of skills, so I'd advise caution against making such presumptions. Agreed, at least in part: that was the other most significant factor in my coworker's mind when he was sharing his thoughts on the matter. He's seen it happen with Model Ts, Model As, 60s classics, and now 70s/80s muscle: each spikes in value when a certain generation reaches a point where they could afford to finally own their life-long "dream car" and fades when they age past a point where they stop caring to maintain them, largely stop driving, or start dying out. I think in his mind the lack of mechanical skills is causing those market declines to happen more quickly because there's less overall interest in mechanical things/hobbies.

Not to (further) derail this thread but I�m with Imo000 on the classic car market. Yes Detroit steel IS declining in sale prices and has been since the summer of 2014, I�ve tracked it (and the rest of the used car market) closely. It�s a cyclical event. A generation finally has the disposable income to buy the car the cool kid had in high school and the market for that car takes off. We�re now seeing 80�s and even 90�s Japanese cars trending up. It�s also why I think it�s funny that anyone thinks the 996 will ever become collectible on a monetary investment basis... they won�t. Millennials can�t wait for autonomous cars. Not all, but the majority. Wall Street investors are currently investing in collectible cars because they believe that market is less volatile. This will have a lifespan of roughly 10 years and then the days of buying for �x� and selling for �x+� will largely be over. And that�s all fine with me as it allowed me to afford my first 911 and will continue to allow me to enjoy other cars I�ve salivated over my entire life because genX will be the last generation of car lovers.

Quotes source post: 16110515

Strictly hearsay, because I don't follow that market myself, but according to him 60s Mustangs in running-but-could-use-some-work shape can often be had for under $10k and ones in pretty-good-but-not-showroom-or-fully-restored shape for around $15k. He recently sold his V6 '66 or '69 (can't remember) with a V8 he never got around to installing for $7500 to a family where the father wanted to use it to bond with/foster his teenage son's budding interest in wrenching. According to him a lot of the restoration/auction shows don't reflect real world values and restoring+flipping one of these cars is a fast way to lose a ton of money because the market's just not there anymore.

There's a lot of variables when it comes to restoring an old car especially rust repair and body work (very time consuming), thus the reason 996 rollers are only worth about $4-$6K with a blown engine.

Quotes source post: 16108410

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ The above seems like a good solution for the OP's circumstances.

Quotes source post: 16110515

Those actions don't represent the actual market. The cars at those auctions are the cream of the crop, best of the best, less than 1% of the cars that are actually out there. I'm talking about the cars that are considered drivers and the everyday person can afford to buy. Their values are not so ridiculous as they were when the muscle car craze was at its highest and they are declining. The prices are going back to what they should have been in the first place.

Quotes source post: 16109933

Very strange...Allstate didn't even blink when I put my 2000 cab on my policy...25+years with them and not a claim, not a hassle adding the Pcar.

Quotes source post: 16110780

My Allstate guy begged me to put one of my P-cars on the account so they could give me a discount on my Homeowners Ins. The other 2 P-cars are insured by State-Farm...( I get multi-car discount on them).. That said, I know either one of them would screww me in a heartbeat, given the chance.

Quotes source post: 16110780

Same here w/State Farm for 38 yrs but they wanted to chg me the same rate for the 2000 C4 Cab as I am paying for my 2012 MB ML350 ($900/yr) and I complained about that. Threatened to shop the rate. They made an adjustment and the rate dropped to $700, which is more in line w/what I thought the rate should be. I insure everything w/them. House, art, $1M liability rider and 6 vehicles. So, I expect some special consideration from them especially since, except for some windshields, I haven't had an accident claim in 15 years, except for 1 that it wasn't technically my "fault" and I wasn't counted against me.

State Farm didn't hesitate to add my 996. I have two houses, seven cars, and my wife's engagement ring insured together. Oddly, my 996 costs more to insure than the other six cars, even my wife's two year old Mazda SUV. Its probably because even a relatively small accident will total it.

While we're on the subject (and no reason not to enjoy a worthwhile derail while we wait for my mechanic!), have any of you insured your 996 on an "agreed value" basis with any of the major companies? @Cuda911 mentioned getting a pretty hefty payout for his after it got wrecked, but he never mentioned how he arranged that sum. If I decide to rebuild, especially any sort of "improved" rebuild, I'm definitely thinking I'll need to find a way to insure it that reflects it's not just any old KBB-value car. I'm currently on State Farm for the 996 (now on a "storage" rate), house, and other car, but I haven't asked them about alternative valuations.

Quotes source posts: 16109933, 16109933

I don't know about other states, but in NJ insurance companies are required to cover any car you own or buy. My insurance company refused to insure a Maserati after I had already put a deposit on it. I even escalated the case and they refused. Then I found out that in NJ they are legally obligated to insure all cars (I don't remember how I learned about that law, probably on a forum) -- so I called them back and told them they had to insure it, and they did at a reasonable rate. I suspect this is law in other states besides NJ. I'm not much of a believer in being valued as a long-term customer by insurance companies -- I think sometimes it works they other way around where they just screw you a little bit more each year because you aren't paying attention as you assume you are getting the best rate as a long-term customer. My wife pays the insurance bills and I haven't paid attention to rates, but when I recently added another car to our policy, I saw that the rates they were charging were outrageous -- "off the charts" bad -- even though we had been a customer for 25 years. I did an online quote with a competitor and the rate for 3 cars was far less than half. I called our insurance company and dropped it to less than half the old rate. They said the couldn't adjust the existing plan at all, but if I gave approval to resubmit the exact same coverage, they could give a new rate. That's their "loophole" excuse for ripping you off -- "you need to resubmit it a different way" (even though I did nothing except tell them to reprocess it). Two minutes later I had a rate for 3 cars that was less than half the prior rate with the exact same terms. If I had more time, I would go back to them and beat them up since they've been ripping us off for a long time. I think they do that all the time to people who aren't watching their rates -- they said they can adjust the rate going forward but cannot do any retroactive adjustments. If you keep on top of your rates as a long-term insurance customer, you are probably fine. If you don't keep track, do an online quote as a check to see how they are treating you.

Quotes source post: 16108410

Neil, I think your experience on this point deserves a fuller discussion. We are seeing an increasing number of owners in the OP's predicament, which is for sure unfortunate. Your solution seems viable (at least for Mk 1 cars) and allows for continued enjoyment of the car, (with what, a 16% hp reduction?) at a fraction of the cost of the alternative costs. If you have the time & interest, I think you should consider opening a new thread on the subject. I'll bet that even the compulsive need-for-speed types among us would find it fascinating.

Quotes source post: 16111074

You are exactly right I have read almost verbatim to what you stated above. They slowly raise the rates on longterm customers figuring they won't take the time or effort to bail on them. I think it stinks! On balking on covering new vehicles I have not witnessed that. We have home, umbrella, and four cars covered. The last two cars were the C4S and a 2019 Honda Civic Type R. They never flinched just added to the bill. Cha-ching!

Quotes source post: 16110999

I believe that an "agreed value" is only provided by carriers who insure "collector cars" which can include a post 1980 vehicle (like a 996) which is only used for weekend/pleasure use, when you garage the "collector car" and have another car that you use as your daily driver. Haggerty is one of the better known "collector car" insurers. There are others, of course, but it's a good place to start if you're looking to get an "agreed value" policy for your 996. See: https://www.hagerty.com/insurance/cl...ehicle-qualify I actually wasn't aware of this before I looked into it and got an incredible quote for all 3 of my "collector cars" (a Toyota Spyder, BMW 335i and the 996 C4 Cab) of only $908/yr for all 3 of them from Hagerty which includes $100/300k liability, $100k property damage and a $0 collision/comp deductible. That would save me about $750/yr with a "guaranteed" insured value for the cars if it they are stolen or totaled. So, I'm definitely going to look further into switching to this coverage. No appraisal is required and I just put in the value that I thought each car "should be worth" and they just gave me a quote for that as the "guaranteed" value based on that. Not sure whether they would dispute the values I assigned to the cars before agreeing to underwrite the policies or not. Haggerty could not give me a valuation for the Toyota or BMW (which I valued at above NADA/KBB) but gave me a value range of $17.9-25k (from good to excellent) for my 2000 C4 Cab. I valued it at $20k and got a quote of just $178 which would save me over $500 to insure just the 996 alone. So, you can try to get a policy based on what you paid for the car plus the cost of the engine rebuild and see what they say about it. That's assuming that your 996 is actually just used for pleasure and is not your daily driver.

Regarding my insurance payout... it took a LOT of negotiating, and 4 separate appraisals. I used to work in the insurance industry, so know the game. My car had some expensive mods and a relatively low-mileage replacement motor, and extensive maintenance records. I used those in the negotiation process. Also, no two 911s are alike, so that leaves negotiation room. Their first offer was about $2,500. Final payout was 38/39k. I did all the negotiating myself, and I wouldn't necessarily expect others to have the same result. I have several of my cars on agreed-value polices, but just had the 996 on my regular policy.

I hate stories like this. As a lifelong mechanic though, that has turned a few wrenches, things do break. To me it reads like a dropped valve via busted seat, spring or retainers. Some foreign object is in the cylinder based on the last mechanic report. I know there are Jake / FSI fans and haters both here. I don�t know that I�d call myself either. After lots of reading here though, I made the effort and took the M96/97 class. What I will say is Jake is honest, stands by his work and doesn�t sugar coat anything. This used to be very American, but now it�s just rare. I hate that a rebuild costs what it does, but if I had to pay to have someone do it, I�d want it done using all the best materials and methods. I myself am considering paying it, proactively, so I can enjoy the car long after I retire. Sadly driving cars for car guys and gals isn�t a financial decision alone. If it were I�d have one truck and a Corolla. I like cool cars and that increases costs. It cannot be justified financially, but you want what you want.

Quotes source post: 16109933

Would your driving history have anything to do with their decision not to ad the 996?

Quotes source post: 16110999

Yes, Hagerty. My 996 joins the other vehicles on the policy. I have an everyday driver

Quotes source posts: 16112223, 16112452

never filed a claim, never had a wreck and maybe 3 speeding tickets in 25 years, so I can�t see how my record would impact their decision not to cover the car for me. And I had three motorcycles on the policy at the time so if I wanted to go fast, the 996 would have been a 4th option. One thing I haven�t seen discussed here regarding agreed upon value through Hagerty (or similar carrier) are mileage limitations. I have a car through Hagerty with an agreed upon value and I can only drive that car 5k mi per year. That was a driving factor against doin that with the 996. Perhaps they have more options now, but not when I was looking into it.

Quotes source post: 16113055

That's no problem for me. I don't drive any of my cars (including the daily drivers, a MB ML350 and a Chevy Bolt) more than 5k/yr and drive my "collector cars" less than 2-3k miles/yr. Actually, don't drive much more than 10k miles/yr in my 6 vehicles combined. I just like owning/driving a lot of different types of vehicles. So, Haggerty is "perfect" for me.

Quotes source post: 16113427

This is pretty much my situation with the main difference being that my sixth car is a take home company vehicle. I have two BMWs and the 996 with Hagerty and the 530i and Cayenne with Geico. The Hagerty insured cars are Sunday drivers and my first world problem is trying to find ways to get more miles on them.

Thanks for all that info! I'd heard of collector car-specific places like Hagerty that combined affordability with mileage limits, but I wasn't sure if there was another less-cheap option for the DD crowd. No news from my mechanic yet, although I'm optimistic that I might hear from him yet today or tomorrow. In the meantime I'm now almost halfway through Cuda's 55 page blown engine thread!

Quotes source post: 16115068

Next you should read Coopduc "Roller" thread. He bought and installed a factory short block.

I know I've gone dark for a while: I've been waiting to contact rebuilders until those final diagnostics were performed so I'd know the condition of my engine when talking with them and my mechanic has been completely bogged down on a Lotus that has turned into as much as a time pit as my car was when I had the misfires (he had to rewire half the Lotus to fix some issues, then as soon as he finished that something else would go wrong, etc, etc). All the while, literally months, I've been hearing "as soon as that Lotus is done we'll get yours on a lift." Frustrating, to be sure, but life has also been hectic enough on my end that I haven't had much time to shop around for a rebuilder anyway. So.... after all this waiting, he finally got it on a lift and it's NOT a valve seat failure?! Here's the email: Just to be sure since he wasn't totally clear, I sent him a followup email asking if there was any metallic debris in the sump or in the cylinders when he was scoping them: " No debris, the sump was clean." What failure mode is this? Coolant intermix? Would that fit the mechanical symptoms we observed when it failed? At this point I'm getting close to giving up on being able to tell a potential rebuilder " this is the current state of the engine" before getting it into their hands, but it'd still be nice to have some idea how bad my core is. Also, since this thread is light on pictures, here's that troublesome Lotus:

The Lotus! I always wanted one in the early 70's but couldn't get my 6'2" frame past the door threshold, the steering wheel and the wide rocker panel. Dealer told me the car was designed for a 5'8" european.

What year? Helped my buddy work on his Lotus yellow '73 back in the day. He was the 2nd owner and had wrapped the front end around a tree. He never finished it....kinda of stalled out at the wiring harness and interior work after sorting out all the running gear and a donor body. Let it gather dust in his basement for 10-15 yrs and finally sold it and another body he had for a steal. Was always sad I never got a ride in it. Might have tried to finish it myself...but that car was not for my fat ***. That green is nice.

Quotes source post: 16242825

[Image-only post; no author-written text. Original image references:] https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/rennlist.com-vbulletin/321x576/wire_harness_smoke_custom_382be13b45d12cc22b91ab3eec0024d88bfe81be.jpg

Shawn, a cracked head is not uncommon.

Quotes source post: 16110999

No need for that since the value is in the engine (once you fix it). If you wreck the car insurance will fix it unless it is totaled. If it gets totaled buy it back for next to nothing & you should be able to sell the engine for more than you paid for the whole car.

Quotes source post: 16243074

Needed some of that back in the day for my 1964 TR4!

Quotes source post: 16243181

I think I still have have a bottle from my MGB days.

You got a gazillion comments here, but skimming them I don't see the questions I'd like to ask: How hard did you push the car, and what about the prior owners? Did you get a DME report that would have shown instances of over-revving, or have an analysis of the oil, before it blew? (Apologies if you already answered this - )

Quotes source post: 16103149

Another option would be to 4.) Apply for a personal loan (no collateral) from your local credit union or bank and use that to pay off the difference in sales price, in order to completely pay off the auto loan and transfer the title to the new buyer. Personal loan has a bit higher of an interest rate, but it might be more useful than letting it sit for a year or two.

Sad to read the OP story.....glad to read about the support and suggestions provided along the way......frustrating to skim the conversations that had nothing to do with the original post...... I just have 1 question....What is the failed engine serial #?....................

Time to pull the engine to see what happened or just sell the car as it sits and move on.

I got about 3/4's through the post. I would sit on the car for a while and not do anything too quick. If you have a garage to park it in, even better. Give it six months. The worst thing you can do at this point is rush and either regret selling or lose more money than you have to. I typically rush things just to get it over with and then regret it shortly after. Don't be a "me". Wish you the best. Good luck.

Quotes source posts: 16243027, 16243055

I never got to sit in it, obviously, but from looking at it and from seeing my mechanic sitting in it I suspect even a 5'8" person might feel a little cramped! He said it only weighs, I think, somewhere around 1500lbs (don't quote me on that) and drives like a go-kart! Even with that truck in the background for comparison it's tough to comprehend just how low it is to the ground! Sorry, I don't know the year. I'll have to ask the next time I'm there. I agree about the green!

Porsche,, death by one big cut. British cars,,, death of a thousand cuts.. Either way you bleed.. Former MGB owner..

Quotes source posts: 16243102, 16243802, 16243980

Huh... that possibility hadn't occurred to me... Could a cracked head have symptoms that could be mistaken for jumping-time or would it be more likely that both would have happened during the failure process? Good questions, all. -I didn't push the car very hard except for a few semi-spirited drives once it was finally fixed (all after the car had fully warmed up, none that would be considered truly spirited in the P-car world, and none on the day of the failure). -I don't have any reason to believe or suspect that any prior owners pushed it hard, if anything I'd guess this car would have the opposite problems of being driven too little/too gently, but I could also easily be wrong about that history since it's a used car. -Any DME rev-records that existed were lost in the process of trying to sort out the original misfire problem back when we thought I had a bad DME -I was planning on doing an oil analysis with my next oil change, which was only about a month away when it failed, but I didn't have any done before that and I doubt the prior owner ever even considered doing one. I took a brief look through my records earlier and I don't think I have it written anywhere. What insight would it be able to provide?

Quotes source posts: 16244132, 16243984

That's arguably the one benefit from the excessive delays we've had in this diagnostic process: it's given me time to get past the original emotions and process it all rationally. I've also worked the numbers a dozen different ways to figure out the long-term results of my various options (and not in a "how can I cook these to justify a rebuild?" sort of way!) and they've led to a surprising conclusion: it makes financial sense to rebuild. Haha, don't get me wrong, "financial sense" is a relative term and I'm definitely still losing a ton of money on this car regardless! But... in the longer term (5-7 years) the total losses of dumping it as-is are not terribly dissimilar from rebuilding, driving it over that span, and selling in a "properly rebuilt with Nickies (and maybe bored to 3.8L?)" state. Counter-intuitive, I know, and I wish I had time to lay out the numbers here, but even with conservative assumptions the numbers are closer than I would have originally guessed and certainly close enough for the intangible benefits of driving a P-car (particularly one that isn't a time-bomb!) to get the difference within an acceptable margin of error. Your thoughts largely match my own: the time for diagnostics is over and it's time to get to work on choosing a rebuilder!

Quotes source post: 16245820

Never really a good idea to �run the numbers� on a 996. These cars aren�t about fiscal responsibility. You could lease a Jetta for $99/ month. Now that makes more financial sense. 996�s are the opposite end of the spectrum. Spend money on them cuz you love them.

Quotes source post: 16245843

Strictly speaking, you're right, but as I said: "relative term." If the cost difference between "minimizing my losses" (on what has frankly been a financially DISASTROUS ownership experience) and "years of use with a engine that's more reliable (and probably more powerful) than it was when it rolled off the assembly line" is minimal, it makes it a LOT easier to make the decision to rebuild.

I can partially relate to how you feel. At 109k, my 2002 cab manual died 6 months ago, white smoke, coolant in engine etc. Car had IMS, clutch AOS etc replaced 2 years ago. Original IMS was fine before the replacement. I really think if you drive it at least once a week IMS is a non issue but Internet hype got to me. Who knows maybe it would last 200k if I didn't touch it. It was running fine before I started replacing things. Anyways, was lucky enough to find a front end damaged 2003 cab manual with 50k miles engine 75 miles away (in SoCal). So I bought the engine for $7200 with everything attached including a better clutch pack AND a permanent IMS Solution kit, the one with oil feed line from the new oil adapter to IMS housing. The 50k engine revs so easily especially after 5k RPM. Bad news is my remote key doesn't work. I think it needs to be programmed but I can turn on the alarm manually so I am Ok with it. Moral of the story is perhaps wait for awhile, you may have a similar or better luck than I do (like finding a rebuild 3.8L engine from front end damage car :-)). Car is not going anywhere..... can always sell later after all your emotions settle down. .

Quotes source post: 16245820

Do it right the first time. Give Jake a call and you will agree Flat 6 Innovations is the only answer.

To me, a proper rebuild only makes sense if you're wanting to keep the car forever...otherwise find a good used motor and sell it with full disclosure.

Quotes source posts: 16246079, 16246231

"...the only..."? No, but "...the best..."? Unquestionably, with a wait time to match. RND has a great program if you want stock power and I've heard good things about EBS and Zuffenhausen, but Jake is in a whole other weight class. I've run those numbers too and at least in my case the cost of a good used motor with installation doesn't improve the selling price enough to make a big difference compared with getting rid of the car as-is. One idea I've had in the back of my mind is that if I get a proper rebuild and still love it after a few years I might consider upgrading to a C4S down the line (buy a roller/swap in my good engine/sell current body as roller) to keep longer term.

Quotes source post: 16246451

Have you considered the Turbo option? You're going to spend Turbo money in the long run either way.

Quotes source post: 16246596

Yep, $6 for the roller, and $20K for a new rebuilt engine, then spending even more on a C4S puts you well into Turbo area.

Quotes source post: 16103453

I can confirm this. Had a valve seat dropped out and no visible collateral damage. Took the plunge, did the head repair and just drove, now 8kmiles further still going strong.

I started looking at RND before FSI and the small premium to get an FSI bored out street performance engine, not including the whole process the engine goes through before it is handed back, is well worth the value. The difference is much smaller than I expected. Both are great options, though. That being said, if this is not a long-term car for you, then there is no point in spending the big bucks for the next owner.

Since we've had all this discussion about the numbers I ran, I thought it might be worthwhile to share my thought process with the rest of you here (especially as a starting point for anyone else who might find themselves in a similar situation who is still in the process of trying to wrap their minds around the whole situation). Please keep in mind that the goal here is not to have the numbers dictate my decision, but to rather to give myself a 30,000ft view of the situation so I have a framework to sort through the reasonableness of various options and ultimately decide based on personal preference. I fully expect that not everyone will agree with my assumptions or conclusions, but I've generally tried to be conservative in my guesses and, again, the goal is a big-picture perspective rather than a strict budget (so please don't take this as an invitation to quibble unless you think an error is especially egregious). With that said, here we go: ASSUMPTIONS/SIMPLIFICATIONS: Porsche ownership is by very definition not a "fiscally-responsible" concept, even when they don't prematurely self-destruct(!) Very roughly guesstimating my total losses of different options after the first year of ownership and after 5/10 years Margins of errors are LARGE, so 1st year totals are assumed to be �$3k, 5th year totals �$6k, and 10th year totals �$10k 996 depreciation continues to crawl over next 5-10 years (no appreciation like the Turbos are seeing, but vehicles in good condition generally holding close to current values and higher-mileage is offset by fewer numbers of low-mileage examples/increasing number of OEM engine failures). C4S examples continue to hold current premium over C2/C4 models. Similarly, a rebuilt 3.8L engine with Nickies is assumed to increase value by ~$6k over similar mileage/condition 996 and that value stays constant over this span despite miles being put on engine (both for the sake of simplicity and because engines that aren�t seen as imminent failure risks would increase in desirability as more engines fail) Routine maintenance already performed on my car (tires, oil, AOS, etc) is not tabulated for simplicity A properly-rebuilt engine is reliable for at least 5-10 years without anything other than regular maintenance My C4 was intended to be a daily driver, so if I exit the Porsche club in the name of minimizing my losses (first two columns) I�ll likely purchase an economical/reliable/boring DD like a five-to-ten year-old Honda Civic and it is assumed worthless after 5th year (remaining value of car is under assumed margin of error in totals) Finally, future routine/regular maintenance on C4/C4S is not included. Yes, these cars cost significantly more to maintain than the Honda DD alternative, but that cost difference is assumed to be neutralized by the enjoyment value of driving a P-car vs a non-sporty Civic. One additional thought I didn't include in the footnotes: If I go the C4S route there's a nonzero chance I might love it enough to keep as a "forever" car rather than eventually selling it to recoup at least some of my losses (I tried to be especially conservative in that ~$25k sale price considering the appreciation we've seen in the C4S market). If that's the case, @808Bill and @TexSquirrel are absolutely correct that my total losses put me well into Turbo territory. That said, the first ~20k of those losses are already gone, so purchasing a Turbo now would be added on top of those losses and the end result would be dramatically more expensive than any of the options on the chart.

I wouldn't put any more into your car if you really want a C4S! Cut your losses and start saving, do not finance!

Looks like Jake ( @Flat6 Innovations ) called it all the way back on Post #16 : Valve seat failure on cylinder #5! My car is out at EBS and I just received the autopsy report from Don: I was having some trouble finding the cracks in the photos, but on a follow up email he confirmed that they were in the cylinder wall and extending straight downward (imagine a D-chunk where the tracks don't join together). They're currently working on cleaning up the case a bit more so they can get a better look at the cracks. He also said that a complete re-seat (which I understand to be replacing all the valve seats) would add about $600 to the cost of the build, but he didn't answer my question about if the new ones are improved at all over the originals (less likely to fail in the future) or if they'd simply be new versions of the same parts (which are probably still worth it so I don't worry about one of the others giving out in another 100 miles). So now I'm on pins and needles waiting for the diagnosis of how deep the cracks go. If they're repairable, my block will soon be off to LN for the 4.0L Nickies treatment. If they're not, well, I don't want to think about that...

Quotes source posts: 16416625, 16103343

Dang. So what backup car are you driving or going to drive now? No matter what the cost will be to repair, you�re already in for a pound. Might be better to save for a proper build and drive a �beater,� knowing you still own a 911 that won�t go down in value.

I'm a newbie, but aren't those the cracks at about 5 o'clock and 7 o'clock in the photos? You can see it better obviously in picture two. In any case, good luck! You're bound to have some luck sometime.

Quotes source posts: 16416625, 16103343

Really? You may want to contact LN. I'm fairly certain they can put Nickies in there. Best of luck. We're pulling for you.

Quotes source posts: 16416782, 16416806

Yes to both: those are what I thought might be the cracks, but I asked the follow-up question To Don to confirm it in case there was something I was missing. I'm sure they'll be talking with LN once they're able to get a better look at the cracks and actual measurements.

Quotes source post: 16416777

I've been driving my other car (an Audi A4) during this whole saga, but the miles are definitely adding up faster than I'd wanted to put them on that car! The car was shipped out to EBS for exactly that: a proper rebuild. This was the autopsy report from their teardown to see what really went wrong and what we're up against before we send the block to LN.

Quotes source post: 16416854

That's funny, in a strange way. I'm driving my A4 while I'm rebuilding the engine in my 996. Not that it would get a whole lot of use in the winter. But it also wouldn't be parked for months. Just need to mount the winter tires. Sparky is closing in on 275,000 miles. This was taken after I rebuilt the engine in that car last September.