Anyone with experience buying or selling a 996 with a fully rebuilt engine?

I had my engine rebuilt last year after the unfortunate failure of an upgraded IMS bearing. I don't plan to sell my car anytime soon, but I am curious if anyone has any experience with what having a rebuilt engine does to the value of 996s. The thing about a proper rebuild is that it eliminates nearly all of the known faults in the M96 engine. The only problem they can't solve is the oil starvation issues that can arise during track use due to the lack of a true dry sump oil system. Even that,however, can be mitigated by the installation of a 10 or 12 quart baffled oil sump. It doesn't solve the problem but definitely mitigates it. The rebuild, if done by a reputable shop, pretty much makes these engines bomb proof. As more and more 996s have their engines go and nuts like me get them rebuilt, the percentage of these cars with proper rebuilds will go up. So, the question is what does that do to the value? Obviously I am not getting my money back. I have no illusions of that and thus didn't rebuild it to sell it. That said, however, I would think anyone buying one of these cars would all things being equal take one with a proper rebuilt engine over even a low mileage car whose engine hasn't been rebuilt. The only question is how much of a premium is that? I have no idea. Has anyone had any experience selling or buying a car with a rebuilt engine?

Raby's engines add value, although only a small fraction of the cost. I don't think that any others really add value, they are treated more like a "mod". With mods, some people look at them as a value add to the car, yet other people treat the car as no longer being original, so it is a detriment. The logic being the unknowns comparing an aftermarket rebuild by some unknown rebuilder as opposed to a factory built/sealed engine. So, the non-Raby rebuild is probably not going to bring any premium. FWIW, I personally would rather have the recently rebuilt engine. My experience in this area is based upon buying and 2 years later selling a car (my '99 C4 aero) that had the engine replaced right before I bought it. It wasn't a rebuild - it was a used motor that was refreshed and had 70,000 less miles on it than the chassis. All it really did was make it a "nice to have" - it wasn't reflected in a higher sales price on either end. All that anyone looked at was the odometer, not the mileage on the engine. Frankly, all of the peripheral work was probably more valuable to me than the lower miles on the engine. At the time of the engine swap, the clutch was replaced, IMSB swapped, fluids, belt, hoses, spark plugs, etc were all changed.

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That is why I saw by a reputable shop. It is not about "mod". It is about reboring the engine and putting in the better nikisil cylinder liners, putting in the IMS solution and all the rest of that. Raby isn't the only one who does those things. The flaws in the engine are well known and are fixed by a competent engine rebuilder. Also, LN sells the cylinder liners and will do the machining services for the heads. Whether you choose Raby or someone else, you can get a proper engine rebuild, as in fixing the blasted thing, not just modding it. As time goes on, more and more engines are either going to blow up or wear out and the cars they are in either be parted out or end up with a rebuilt engine. As time goes on, more and more of these will have the rebuilt engines. Right now, not many of them do and the people who have rebuilt engines are not selling them. So they are very hard to find for sale and thus hard to put a value on them. Over time that will change. I would imagine as more rebuilds go on the market, they will command more of a premium over the non rebuilds.

John if you don't mind sharing. Who did your engine rebuild? How many miles have you put on it since the rebuild? And how much did it costl?

I pondered this question before I re-engined mine. My indie wanted to rebuild it, but I went with an RND crate engine. SSF unfortunately didn't have a direct replacement for mine on the shelf at the time, so the quick-swap feature was moot. However my indie's price to do the same upgrades was the same. One thing that swayed me was RND, through its association to Jake and Charles, is a name most savvy buyers around the country will recognize and trust. Most indies' reputations extend only to their own regional area.

Most prospective buyers don't even understand the details around how the imsb became a failure point, much less the weak points of the M96 or merits of doing a proper rebuild. I'm thinking it'll be a very, very small market where people that know are willing to spend extra in lieu of waiting through their own rebuild, but the general 996 buying public remains woefully ignorant on what the car being sold actually is. Personally I'm pretty ignorant on the relative importance of various failure modes & how to minimize or prevent them & this is despite reading this forum for 6 months and trying to soak up all I can from guys like Jake, the DIYers & other helpful folks on the forum.

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I had my engine rebuilt by a shop in Clinton Connecticut just outside of Hartford, Automobile Associates. They were recommended by my local shop and seem to have a very good reputation rebuilding Porsche engines. They did not just rebuild mine. They bored the original 3.6 liter out to a 4.0 liter increasing the horsepower from 320 to 375 HP and the torque from a stock 270 foot pounds to 300 foot pounds. They also added a 10 quart baffled oil pan, LN Engineering Nikisil liners, sent the heads out to LN and replaced all of the internal parts with upgraded ones as well as installing the "solution" IMS. The one that is oil fed and is of the same design as the shaft on the 964s and 996 Turbos and (knock on wood) doesn't fail. So far I have about 8,000 miles on the engine, including 1200 miles worth of break in. I have tracked it four days this year. So far so good. The only issue I have had with it is the seal around the oil pump leaked. The pump is fine but the seal went bad. The best guess was that because the oil pump is right by the Cats, the heat from the cats will sometimes fry the seal. I had the seal replaced and it hasn't leaked again, yet. As far as cost, enough money that it makes me embarrassed to admit I did it. Significantly more than a crate engine. I am not going to defend it or say it was anything other than crazy. I am not sure why I did it other than I had the money and i loved the car so much I didn't want to see parted out. I will never get my money back out of the car. But, I will make more money and forget about the money I spent on it. And I do have what I think might be the greatest 996 4S on the entire planet. So there is that.

To me, perhaps worth a $2000 or so premium... Anything much more and you start looking at newer cars... Oddly, looking for a cheap 996 for my wife to drive, and for occasional track days. Would love a 996 with a v8. Every thread I have seen stated that a v8 adds no value, and actually hurts the value of the car... Yet, I can't find a 996 v8, and when they are sold, I see prices in the 30-40k asking range... Ditto for boxsters with v8s or Audi motors... Yet, 996s and boxsters are going really cheap...stock... Honestly, if your motor goes, v8 seems like a good way to go...

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I never understood putting a V8 in one. The charm of a 911 is the flat six. If you want a V8, just buy a corvette. You can get a C5 or C6 corvette for very short money that is also properly quick.

I have owned a bunch of 911s... The air cooled ones are ver different from the water cooled. The 996 sounds like any other car, at least stock... Yet, the motor self destructs... A 996 with a v8 would be an awesome track, street car. A 996 will never be a collectible. That said, it's cooler than a vette. You can buy a 996 with a bad motor for $5000. I keep hearing that v8 conversions kill value... But I have yet to see one sell for $15k like base 996s sell for...

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Technically speaking, doesn't every motor ever made self destruct? I mean, some just do it faster than others. And, there are plenty of these motors out there still going strong with 100k+ miles on them, with nothing catastrophic failures to them.

My 99 C2 held until about 125k until a rebuild was necessary. Somewhere on here is the three-page parts list of that many-month escapade (nikkies, 3.4 to 3.6, IMS, clutch while we're at it, etc.). 30k miles later it's off the road with an oil consumption issue that we cannot seem to figure out, and I'm not willing to go down the road of another massive labor cost in a full teardown.

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Check your oil pump seals. They sit so close to the CATs they take a lot of heat and fail.

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Then don't buy one. And since you don't own one and don't plan on buying one, do yourself a favor and go post on a board related to a car you do own. Seriously, no one cares about your Air Cooled posing. No thinks you are cool for having owned one or comes on here to hear about them anymore than people go on the AC forums to hear about the glories or working air conditioning and better performance. Everyone has their cars and like children, everyone likes theirs. You leave ours alone and we will do the same about whatever mongrel you decide to buy.

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And there are plenty of AC ones who spit the bit. They are all high strung and unpredictable. It is part of owning one. If you don't like that, buy a Miata or something.

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Thanks...BTDT. Oil is getting in from somewhere... going through a quart every 150-200 or so. Which is, of course, a hell of a lot of oil. And nary a drop on the ground, though a good 10 seconds of street-filling smoke at startup.

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IF it is not on the ground, it is going in the cylinders. That has to be a head gasket or a valve seal. There is just no other place it could be. I can't imagine it being your rings on that new of an engine. It has got to be a seal. And if it is not leaking out, it is going into the combustion chamber. And that means a head gasket or a valve seal. What else could it be?

Damned if I know, but neither one is the culprit. This one is light years above my pay grade... shop wants a full tear down (after dropping the tranny and engine and a partial disassembly), but couldn't rationally be into this for a few dozen more hours in labor. Breather hose from throttle body dry, cylinders & valves ok, leakdown test at top and bottom of cylinder bore showed nada...

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Take a deep breath cowboy... I have owned 996s, boxsters, 914, 911s, 944 turbo, 930 turbo, Yada, Yada... Love the air cooled cars, still own a couple. That said, the 996 isn't a 930. If the motor blows, a v8 is not a bad option... The 996 is a cool car, wouldn't mind another one. Looks great with the aeropackage. The motor, statistically speaking, is not a Porsche triumph. If your motor blows, and you are looking for options, it seems like a v8 conversion sells for more than a 996 with a replaced motor... Sad, I know. One of the reasons I am leery of getting another 996 or boxster is the it's issue. And unfortunately, that's what's killing the resale value of these cars... There are folks that have done very nice conversions... There is a boxster with an Audi motor for sale on this board... People seem to like it... Your car sounds nice, keep it and enjoy it. You asked what someone might pay...didn't you? I have much more money and time in my cars, like most of us, than they are worth. Nothing wrong with that. It's a car. Enjoy it. Peace.

I'm new to Porsche's but from my reading it seems the Mezger engines that come in the turbo cars and the C4 (I think?) don't have the IMS bearing issue. Do they have any of the other 996 issues (AOS, cracked heads, etc)? Could you swap in a Mezger engine or would it be cost prohibitive?

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I'm new here and don't know much, a few things I have learned though are below. If I botched anything a patient, more educated soul may just help a bit - The Mezger styled engines in the 996TT and GT3 have an IMS. They have a different IMS design, however. Failures seem to be highly correlated to porsche flat 6s with ball bearing IMS designs (all naturally aspirated 996 and 997.1s with the exception of GT3s). You can convert a single row IMSb from an M96 engine (non-mezger design) to a plain bearing more like the GT3/996TT design for a few grand. - Cars with the 'flawed' IMSb design: All 996 and 997.1 n/a except GT3s (this means C4S 996 does have the flawed bearing). Cars with the IMSb design most prone to failure based on discovery in the IMSb-Porsche-Owner-class action suit: single row IMSb on the 2002-2004s, 2001s. Cars with the best track records of IMSb durability despite having the flawed ball bearing design: 1999 996s, 997.1 n/a (2005-2008). - Mezger design of a true dry sump + 'problem-free' IMSb design: 996TT, 996GT3/2. - Can you swap a Mezger design flat 6 into a regular 996? I believe so but have no idea of the cost related to ECU, piping, etc. Prices I've seen for the Mezger design start at $35k, though auction sites have many 996TT engines available for much less ($10k - 30k range from what I've seen). - Do Mezger engines have AOS, cracked heads (via water pump cooling failure), etc? I'm not sure... maybe a Turbo guy can help. They're still Porsches so they can drop a few grand of repairs on you without notice, but generally the Mezger styled 996 engines are known to be reliable engines worthy of the price. Sadly, the M96 has a very mixed history with some good apples and a lot of horror stories.

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Sounds like my wife!

I wonder what it would take to change a metzger turbo motor into a normally aspirated ?? Obviously remove the turbos and related piping but internally , I assume they will be running a lower compression by using different Pistons , probably different cams too??

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Compression and cams would be the first thing. Probably easier to get a 996 GT3 engine.

A rebuilt engine definitely adds value, but nobody really knows how much is added. Here's how I answer this vexing question: "Compared to what?" Given some degree of patience, shoppers looking for a 996 can find nice examples with rebuilt engines and nice examples with high mileage but with their unmolested engines. Then compare the prices. Therein lies your answer. Also, consider this: for about $5K, you can get all high wear components (clutch, etc.) replaced and the bullet proof IMS Solution installed by a competent indy. And that's considerably cheaper than a rebuild. So again, "compared to what" analysis helps to frame the discussion. relinuca

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More importantly...are you willing to send me a Racine Cringle? Cream Cheese or Pecan filled would be nice

As others have said it all depends on who does the rebuilding. I don't think, however, that it will fetch a premium to offset the 401k penalties for an early withdrawal to to pay for said rebuilding...

x2 several people here buy junk motors.

I don't know but I spend 29k cdn$ to make my engine into a 3.9l nikasil plated with no shortcuts meaning replacing everything with quality parts and even aos and water pump minus just the alternater which died on me 3 months after the rebuild. So now everything is good to go. Car has 130k km on it and the interior looks still new with exception to the drivers foot well, now after the mechanics scuffed it up. I just saw a 10k mile 1999 C2 go for 28k usd which looked brand new so maybe one day my 2002 C4S will go up in price enough to warrant the money I spend fixing it up.

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�The rebuild, if done correctly, pretty much makes these engines bomb proof.� There. I fixed it for you. The value that a rebuilt engine contributes to the car may depend on the name of the shop, but the quality of the build itself doesn�t depend on it. There are a couple of epic build threads kicking around here, and I�d take some over any shop. I built my 997 engine myself about 50 miles from your shop. I did extensive research here first. The build is fully documented in a binder and has been rock solid. I know that it contributes no value, but the car runs great, and I saved a ton of money while learning something new.