IMS failure and explanation

Hey guys. I am new to the forum, so to everyone, Hello. I was wondering if anyone could explain exactly how IMS failure works. While I understand it totals the engine of the car, I don't understand what actually happens. From what I understand the intermediate seal was made too small for the engine and that to prevent engine failure they have to replace the seal. Had the seal not been replaced what happens exactly? Is this problem only prevalent in cars that have the M96 engine? I'm having issues and I need someone to give me some straight answers because Porsche wont. Thank you in advance to everyone for their feedback.

Do a search... Tons of info here!

Ims is a shaft. The shaft rides on a bearing. The bearing is sealed and can degrade. The lube can run out and the bearing overheat. The bearing can seize. The chain thet drives the shaft comes from the crank, it will try and trun the siezed bearing to the point it sheers off the stud holding the shaft to the outter seal (cover) when the stud is sheered the shaft wobbles about and causes the cam chains to loose timing. This causes valve impact and the ending result just depends on how many parts break before the things stop moving. The seal is no cure, Porsche will not replace the bearing.they will not admit it is servicable. They will sell you a new motor. Google or Bing LN Engineering for what some people view as a way around the potential problem (no affiliation)

That's a nice concise summary of a really catastrophic event

Ed, I think you've missed a key component here... when the bearing fails, lots of little hardened steel ***** start bouncing around inside the engine. It's only a matter of time before one of the ***** interferes with a moving part and causes (even more) catastrophic damage. As Jake Raby says, "If you hear a sound like lots of little ***** in a can, shut down the engine - do not attempt to restart it !!"

+1 Van - noted although I doubt what one would here is bearings... rather chains with LOTS of slack hitting anything close to them - still it is not a sound I wish anyone to experiance so they can offer a more in depth description dont want another "fear thread" so we will just keep it simple

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great summary,, gives more understanding even after reading that article of excellence mag,,

My mechanic mentioned that the ims bearings get washed out by the 0-40 that Porsche uses, I also read somewhere they started using 0-40 to hide noise from the lifters.

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the IMS bearing gets washed and lubricated by engine oil especially under pressure,, so,,drive your car hard to prevent it

Video here...

Typically I keep my cars pretty long period of time. The problem like this really makes me steer away from 996 & early 997s. The truth is that it's not 100% guarantee fix even with the aftermarket new bearing; not a permanent fix. It should be rather treated as a maintenance item like the timing belt. I'm gonna look for MY 09+ 997 with the new designed engines instead of dealing with Porsche engineers' mess. My $.02

you are correct.... it is a maintenance item to be changed with the clutch, if your car has had a clutch, get a bearing....- there is no data supporting lifespan of the replacement, (though it is being collected according to LNE) only data confirming they can fail, and now there is a replacement option.

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what if someone has a Tip and has no clutch?

If I buy a brand new Porsche crate engine, is the IMS risk eliminated with a redesigned part?

Change at oil change intervals The stock bearing life is est at 33k miles. I know I know, but that's just the service life - how long it lasts is another story. I have not heard service life est on the ceramic one. No - imo the replacement motor is not free from the issue as it has the stock bearing - I seem to be standing on this soap box a lot but I have also seen, helped rebuild, and helded replace these parts. It's not something I wish on anyone - the cure is fairly new and has no known failures. That's better than the track record of the stock one - I don't mean to sound like an alarmist or a "water cooled are bad" guy. I will buy another 996 someday and I will do the things needed to help me keep it running long and strong (and sleep well) For Tips, make sure you don't drive around under 2k rpm all the time, your Porsche (after propper warm up) should see redline or near redline everyday - best known way to make everything work it to run the car. Porsche took it out and red lined it down the autobauhn when it was new. Don't let them be the onbly ones that drove it right

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you still have an IMS, doesn't matter if its an auto or manual

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i meant that i don't have a clutch to replace the IMS bearing every time it goes,, in other words, how often should i replace the IMS bearing? which replacement bearing is best?

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Tiptronics seldom have ims issues. Gads, now theres an account called ims Try going to church introducing yourself as the devil

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Depends. If you buy an M96 or even M97 engine no. These engines have an IMS and the bearing and while Porsche has improved the hardware failure is a possibility. But a very slim one. The new 9A1 engines come sans any IMS. The cams are driven by chain directly by the crankshaft. The crank also drives the oil pumps (high pressure and scavage). Sincerely, Macster.

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What Pac996 said. IMS failures in Tip equipped cars rare. Best thing you can do is run a name brand synthetic oil of the proper viscosity grade for your location, an oil that meets the requirements spelled out in the owners manual, and change the oil more often. How often is a big question mark. Let me just point out my 02 Boxster has over 231K miles and is on its orignal engine and IMS and I change the engine oil every 5K miles. I've run Mobil 1 15w-50, Mobil 1 0W-40, Mobil 1 10w-40 High Mileage oil and most recently -- last oil/filter service -- switched to using Castrol Syntec 5w-50 oil. This is the same oil I run in my 03 Turbo and it gets its oil changed every 5K miles too. I bought it used a year ago with 9500 miles and have over 33K miles on the car now. Added: AFAIK, there is only one aftermarket replacement bearing offered in the USA. Search flat6engineering (and Jake Raby) and LN Engineering and you'll find links and info on the replacement bearing. In the UK AutoFarm offers a solution that is supposed to address the IMS bearing weakness. Sincerely, Macster.

Thanks great thread., I had no idea what this IMS was either!

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It worked. I laughed trying to think of a reply. I'd imagine starting an insurance company to take just ims failure accounts would make a lot of money. My money goes on guys crashing and totalling their cars or blowing them up while sitting in their driveway revving the heck out of the car to get the ims to fail so that they can get a new engine. Odds are the ims wont fail and they'll be spending lots of time in jail and with out a license trying to get the most out of the car and a new engine if possible. At a one time pop of $1000 you could have a warehouse full of rebuilt engines. I think Ed would even buy the insurance and he doesn't have his 996 anymore.

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33k, says who? I replaced my IMS bearing at 50,000 miles. It's hard to tell from this picture, but the part from my '02 (updated single row) had zero wear. Absolutely no discernable wear or play. The only reason I bothered to still replace it was because at that point I had spent the money to have it removed so it seemed reasonable to install the LN update after all of that effort. http://www.lnengineering.com/ims.html#retrofit LN put a ton of thought and design into the replacement part (for example the bearings are made of Timkin silicone nitride that they estimate will have 3 to 5 times the life of the O.E. steel bearings). They seriously beefed it up. I doubt I'll ever change mine again.

Well I have a TIP and it sees redline everytime I drive it...So I am ok, right? LOL Kyle an I.M.S. bearing is a Irritating Mouthy Spouse bearing down on you.....when your replacing the IMS bearing. But you know about that....

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how come?

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Ask a knowledgeable mechanic. An automatic adds more dampening to the drive train. Torque converters also double as a balancer with dampening effects.

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Where did you hear that from may I ask?

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Timken Engineers

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I did the same thing you did and had the same results, 55K no noticeable wear on the bearing. We should start a poll about worn vs. not and have everyone rip it to shreds for its methodology. Figured we haven't had one in a while.

Ed, many have asked and I have stated the aprox number of "bad bearing found" will be close to zero % life expecancy and how long something lasts are two very differant things. wear for the most part is microscopic failure is hard to predict, harder to catch, and preventable... that said, replacement is almost 100% of the time replacing a seamingly perfect part with a $600 part why do it? one word - prevention

I replaced mine at 97k miles and my bearing had minimal wear as well...

anyone who has one of these replaced and is willing to send it to me, I have access to a microscope with digital camera... I would love to take some pictures of the race and ***** of one that came out of a car... I will pay shipping and return the bearing.... I would have to remove the outter seal ring and clean all/any grease out - then post pics on here. JAMES! - you know yours is the one I want to do this to!!!! where is he! Ride, at 97k yours would be a great one too !! (just got PM... I will have a bearing soon to take piics of)

I know that there has been a lot of talk here on the effect of oil changes on the IMS bearing, and I also believe in changing the oil every 5,000 or so. But the OEM bearing is sealed, so the engine oil does not lubricate it, so I am not sure how much of an impact oil changes have on the sealed bearing. In my case I followed the LN Engineering advice and removed the outer seal on my OEM bearing so now it does receive lubrication from the engine oil. Also, on the LN bearing there is no outer seal so the engine oil does provide lubrication. I have read of cases where the IMS bearing failed with very low mileage, in one instance I think it was less than 5,000 miles. It seems to be kind of a hit or miss thing. Next time I have my engine out of the car I am planning on installing the LN bearing, seems to be a much better quality bearing and relatively cheap insurance. I also have worked with one party that bought a silicon nitride bearing directly from a manufacturer for about $75 bucks, fabricated a shim as he has a dual row bearing and the replacement is not a wide as the stock dual row bearing, and installed it and it has been working fine. Now he still has the stock flange and mount/shaft and does not have a lot of miles on it yet. Even if the bearings that LN uses are not nearly $595, I think that the flange, shaft, etc. and the research and development that they did justifies the price they ask for their upgrade.

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+1 on that flange and shaft... I am a machinist and looked at that thing and said... that alone is worth $500 if you were going to try and have one made - its a beautiful piece of work - and that bolt is MUCH better looking from a "stress crack" point of view! If all you got was a bearing, i agree... source one out and be done, but the better/bigger shaft/bolt and the flange all as a package.... well worth it IMO

Not to be a naysayer here, but I'm seeing lots of responses indicating OEM IMS bearings that "don't show any/much wear", or "my bearing was fine"....so, are these replacements really necessary, other than "peace of mind, good insurance" ? I sure hope I didn't just put the jinx on my engine.

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i was just about ordering a new bearing,, this thread changed my mind,,

Steve and others: think of a wheel bearing on your car.... do they fail? Sure... how long do they last? well I bet some 1969 cars still have the original bearings in them....while others have had them replaced at very low miles. will it last forever? most likely not here are the question that hurts Can you tell if its going bad? NO so unlike a wheel bearing where you start to hear it whine and "go-out" then get it to a shop and have it fixed, this bearing doesnt give a warning (at least not one that is easy to identify) The replacement is definantly "preventative" - "peace of mind" For me the cost -vs- fear factor is one I am not willing to mess with and so I would change it - remember that is me for the record my previous 996 has 120k miles on it and factory IMS bearing

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The worst thing you can do is allow anecdotal evidence sway your opinion either direction. If we allowed threads here to change our minds there would be no 996 forum. With that said, I appreciate the fact that people like LN Engineering are working on "upgrades" to our cars. As long as you understand that parts like the IMS replacement is an upgrade and not a fix then you are good Me? I just drive my cars VERY HARD, maintenance is VERY FREQUENT, and ENJOYMENT is at max. Did I mention I have 3 9X6 cars and love them?

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that "one" doesnt have this issue but as Dell states, drive it... really drive it IMO these motors suffer more from low rpm torque than high rpm running - and the "tips dont have this issue" statement is completely false... I just helped rebuild a Tip with <30k miles on the clock for.... yup, you guessed it IMS failure

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forums are there to share knowledge which may or may not set someone's mind accordingly,,

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See?! Here i am changing my mind back again

its kind of a tough call, I lived with mine long enough and was about to change it when suddenly the car sold.... actually the new owner and I are working to change it anyway "just because" ---- when we get around to it what car do you have?

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996 MK I C2 Tip

so I was looking at your posts and you just bought it right? about 60k on the clock... lots of questions, lots of nerves, how do I do this, how do I do that, what is this..... slow down there partner... breathe deep.... you are all over the place.... organize your plan of attack, prioritize them, and work on a plan to cover them... I see "I want a GT3 wing, to whats this leak, and I am scared - its exciting and scary to own these cars and it sounds like you want to do it all - right now.... for the most part budget was an issue for me so i had to plan out my moves...I made a few mistakes early on "jumping" on things I thought were cool or right.... its kind of normal, but you have to grab ahold of this pony and steer it towards your goal. Make a list of maintenance, upgrades, mods, wishes and weigh each of them in your own mind.... the answer will come to you here are some data points LINK Link #2

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i bought the car the day i registered here in this forum which provided more help than my local dealer,, this is my 1st Porsche which turned to be a brand new experience,, my knowledge in other cars didn't seem to help with this one,, i am still taking closer looks and poking it like an alien,, sorry, for the many posts and questions,, btw,, the GT3 wing was for a friend

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NO NO - dont be sorry,... that's why we are here! did you see the 2 links I added to that last post of mine??? LOL @ alien! I stared at mine for a month before I was willing to try and jackit up... in the end I was jacking it up and pulling the wheels almost weekly and was pretty un-afraid of the car, now the new (old 86') is offering the same challenge, still not comfortable jacking it up, but getting there Keep the questions coming, I like that you are asking and excited !! This is what its all about, learing and discovering

When I was shopping for a 40th anniversary edition 996, I visited a sales shop in CT that specializes in Porsche cars. When I arrived, there was a 997 in the showroom with a huge puddle of oil under the engine. I asked the store owner about it - he said he was getting ready to give a customer a test drive, and after starting it up and moving it near the door to exit the showroom, it started making loud noises - he then parked it back in the showroom and it gave birth to that huge oil spill. He said something about hoping Porsche can help him out with the cost of the repair - I don't know how he made out, I ended up buying my car at a dealership.

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(fingers in ears) LA LA LA LA L ALA I dont hear you....... If the trans goes or If I have to drop the engine...I will upgrade.

I give up. So Ed you want to buy a 99 996 for cheap? I'll sell you mine for 30k It comes with a police helicopter and gaggle of motorcycle cops if you move here. Anyway maybe there needs to be a thread on how many guys end up getting in trouble for looking at chicks in cross walks and such instead of IMS threads. Some times it just seems things get senile with threads on the IMS. Where's stats on blown engines vs IMS failure? Just for kicks try driving the other cars like the 911 and see how far you get Garage queen car

So as a noob question, is the issue IMS applicable to the C4 and C4S models as well? Curious if it's only a C2 issue...

The C4 and C4S are not immune to this issue.

I think a service contract (extended warranty) is a good answer to the 996 problems. Anyways it worked for me rather well. When buying my 2002 2C in January 2009 I did take over the Easy Care warranty from a previous owner for $1,400 till June 2010 and it paid for itself many times over: --new coolant expansion tank --new sway bar links in the front --new transmission (ouch!) --new clutch pedal helper spring (yes, I like it and contrary to everybody's opinion I would not choose to drive without it.) -- new clutch installation for free (the transmission was already out) --new IMS flange --new RMS seal My cost: 2x$200=$400. many thousands saved already. Do all of you guys willingly accept the risk driving such a wonderful car with known timing bomb issues which can be averted with so little cost? When the transmission was being replaced I had a chance to have the LMS bearing installed but decided to just renew my servce contract fo next 4 years. I put a lot of miles on the car and total peace of mind for next 4 years is worth lots of money for me. If the engine grenades I will be happy too. I will gladly accept brand new engine at no cost. Other then that anything which goes wrong on a Porsche is an easy $1,000 a pop. Anyways, this was my experience and i thought I'd share it.

+1 to the extended warranty. If you purchase a Honda you still want one, but if you purchase a 996 where you know some IMS stuff can happen, then it is a no brainer. It would just be great if those extended warranty company were not so 'shaddy', no joke you can't even download the policy on their website... scary...

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Cute. It's all relative dude. Got any other fears? Notice the tell tale oil leak from the IMS after the engine blew.

Don't assume that you will get a new/remanufactured engine from your warranty company. Sometimes they soil just buy a used engine for the car. I had an Easycare warranty that I bought from the selling dealer when the factory warranty expired. It also expired before I had an intermix problem. But when I talked with the dealer they told me that Easycare probably would have found a used engine based on there experience. This is more so now that the cost of an engine has gone so much.

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Hey, LN already has mine.. they wanted it for warranty and inspection purposes...

Alien? Hey for all you soon to be DIY guys... this car is amazing to work on, don't be afraid to dive into it. this is by far the easiest car I've ever worked on.

At least with the cheap manufacturing come one good things, it is all plugged together like a giant lego... Even better they did not even try to add glue in between When you see how the headlight pop, the center console pop with what 6 screws, radio covers, pop... I assume they wanted to save the wieght of nuts and bolts...

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It is not about any fears but pure common sense and mathematics. My warranty cost me so far $1.400 + $400 deductible = 1,800 Easy Care paid only for my new transmission flown from Porsche from Germany $11,402.49 including labour (I am in Canada). On top of that for other claims Easy Care paid 618.83 already. Simple arythmetics show tham I am ahead $10,221.32 SO FAR. What part of it is relative dude and why shoud I fear after saving over 10K in 1 year?

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I do not assume anything. I got a new transmission from Porsche with factory warranty for 2 years. I put over 2,500 kilometers on it already. There were only second gear synchros noisy when cold. I know it will be the same story with an engine. I got confirmation directly from EC. I NEVER bought any extended warranty fo any of my 20+ cars before and I strongly believe, if able to afford, in self insuring. Being a Financial Planner myself I always teach my clients the simple rule: "Never insure anything you can afford to replace and ALWAYS insure things you cannot" But 996, for the reasons I mentioned before, is an exception and the proof of that is my own case and many others'. This is just my third post and I create a controversy already. I better shut up for another year now

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That my friend is what we call a self-fulfilling prophesy. Those companies are in business (and make money) b/c they sell a product that allows those that have a fear of owning a car by way of listening to hysteria to suppress that for a short time. And to hope your motor goes is just an asinine statement...warranty or not.

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1--Should I understand that my transmission would not break if I (wisely, according to you) did not buy an extended warranty? 2--They did not make money on me... I drive without any fear at all and even.. 3--...yes, it would be nice to have 10 or 12 year old 160,000 km engine replaced with a new one, wouldn't you agree? I do not intend to change anybody's mind or offend. If I've made that impression then I am sorry. Just thought I would share my experiences so far.

Janusz, if you fail to understand my original statement then I can't help you. I'll give you a small hint: "......extended warranty is a good answer the 996 problems....." Do you want to explain the "problems" the 996 has that necessitate such an unwise purchase? And, while getting a brand new motor to plop down on your lap is nice, to wish yours would just grenade is in fact asinine. Statements like that are the ones that get insurance underwriters very suspicious. Back to enjoying my holiday weekend

Unlike Janusz it is not my first extended warranty. I've had about a dozen. Not once have I gotten back less than twice what I paid for them. From a financial standpoint, there is no such thing as a minor repair on a German car. Ten $500 repairs amounts to the same out-of-pocket as one $5000 repair. Reputable warranty companies (I admit I've never had an EasyCare and would not choose one as my first choice because even their top policy is a "named item" vs an exclusionary) will not source a used engine as a replacement unless new or remanufactured engines are unavailable, for the simple reason that their liability continues through the expiration of the policy and the prognosis for a used engine is more risky. Yes these companies are in business to make money, but that's true of every kind of insurance company. I don't hear anyone claiming it's stupid to carry collision insurance on their Porsche. It's not as easy as some people make it sound, for an insurance company to wiggle out of paying a claim. The biggest risk with auto warranty insurers, because the policy is pre-paid up-front, is that they will simply go out of business before the policy expires. That's why it's important to do your homework with regard to the solidity of the company, how long they've been in business, etc. To me that is more important than a few unverifiable anecdotes from disgruntled customers posting anonymously on some blog. I do not say that I will not ever have the LN bearing put in, but that is an entirely different issue than getting a warranty. Even Jake Raby has said that there are multiple failure modes for the M96 engine, and sometimes what's attributed to the IMS bearing is in fact not. Then there are the other components: transmission, electrical, suspension, steering, on and on and on. Little switches and such that cost a few hundred each to replace. It all adds up. That's where I feel the warranty comes into play majorly, not just IMS failure.

I just find it comical that every time I hear something about extended warranties it sounds just like everybody coming home from Vegas. For some reason everybody seems to win. You'd be so much better off placing the money in an investment bearing account and "self warrant".

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"We broke even" is better since you know they took it in the shorts.

probably more appropriate.

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Personally I don't give a rat's *** if you or anyone else doesn't buy an extended warranty. That's your legitimate right. What I don't consider a legitimate right is for you or anyone else to insinuate that those of us who do, are bull****ters or morons. You have no idea whom you are talking to on these forums, and I think you might be shocked at the amount of business acumen many of us have. I don't know about others, but through many years of running a multitude of businesses along with professional practice, I've learned to be **** about record-keeping. So I have folders with service invoices for every car I've owned since 1983, my first German car purchase, and the first of many extended warranties. I'm prepared to back up my statements. Speaking of which, will you kindly share with us what sort of "investment bearing account" you can recommend where $2500-3500 for 3 years would accrue enough to pay for an $18,000 engine replacement? Again, the same philosophy can be applied to collision insurance. How many of us "self warrant" that...even those of us whose Porsches aren't worth much more than the cost of a new engine?

I am a member here, at 6speedonline and at the 996 Series Forum. I have been terrorized by all of the posts about the M96 engine failures. I read the article in Excellence this month and this article in Total 911 magazine http://www.total911.com/news/996-eng...ou-be-worried/ I contacted about 5 aftermarket warranty/extended service contract providers. I'm confused about who to go with. I've checked BBB ratings, read about them, years in business, DO A WHOIS on the net and find out how long they have had their URL. Every provider has given me an option $X down and $X for 12, 15 or 18 months interest free. I negotiated price and will pull the trigger this week and start a policy, with who is another question. EXTENDED SERVICE CONTRACT Vs, SELF INSURING, $1550 to $2750 is the range I was quoted for my '99 with 48,300 miles. Some policies cover more than others obviously. The $1550 policy covers my main concern in this car, THE ENGINE. SELF INSURE AGAIN, I think not. For me and my nervous personality type, I'll pay the down payment, then the monthly payments for the peace of mind. If I sell the car, I get back a pro-rated refund If I CANCEL. Same goes if heaven forbid its stolen or totaled out. Sorry for the rant - Rob

Palm......wake up on the wrong side of the bed? At no point did I call anybody a bull****ter or a moron. Geez, lighten up or you'll give yourself heart failure. Back to enjoying my Memorial day....... Unsibscribing

Extended warranties are objectively a racket. I don't see how that's remotely debatable. The house wins the overwhelming majority of the time, or there would be no business in it. I don't judge anybody who buys one, mind you. It's just that you have to be honest about why. You're not financially beating the game by buying a warranty; you're paying a financial penalty for predictability. You're deciding that your personal situation is such that a certain, predictable cost is easier to live with than an uncertain, unpredictable one. Whether that is 'value' is a personal call. But saving money? Absolutely no way, no how.

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Nobody yet has challenged my comment about collision insurance. It too is predicated on the company paying out less than they take in in premiums. Insurance companies also make money investing the money they take in, so it isn't as if their profits are simply "premiums-payouts=profit" there's more to it than that. Extended warranties are no more a "racket" than any other insurance. The warranty companies have no control over the repairs a car will need any more than Allstate has control over how many cars it insures will be involved in a collision. They can only go by statistics. In the case of the auto warranties, sure, of 10 million Honda owners who buy them maybe 9 million won't ever make a claim. That's certainly not the case with German cars, at least not the multitude of them I've owned over the years. But there are far fewer Porsches than Hondas, so the warranty companies still come out ahead. That's ok with me. I wouldn't call it a "racket" unless they refused to cover cars like Porsches and Mercedes that have a high repair incidence and a high cost of those repairs. In the past six cars I've owned, my average cost of warranties is $2250/vehicle, and the average payout for covered repairs is $4691/vehicle. So yes indeed, the predictable cost of the warranty was much easier to live with than the uncertain, unpredictable but much more expensive cost of repairs. In my case, my outlay on warranties is $13,500 and they've reimbursed me $28,146. I don't know where you learned arithmetic or came upon your definition of saving money, but I've got $14,646 in my bank account that's directly attributable to having extended warranties. I call that saving money.

Looks like Palm came up on the good side of the warranty. Its all about the odds.......than again I could walk out of my house and run over by a bus. Doubt it would happen but it could. I say if it gives you peace to have a warranty than so be it. Time make the brats....

I'll ignore your juvenile 'arithmetic' comment. It is surely clear to anyone with even the most tenuous grasp of capitalism that insurance companies are profit making enterprises. Therefore, especially in the current investment environment (do you know what a yield curve is?), no insurance company is going to lose money on a risk product in the hope of making it back in the markets. Moreover, a lot of insurance companies are specifically looking for easy premium revenue to offset the miserable returns they're getting on their fixed income investments. You did well because you were unlucky with your cars, but lucky that you bought warranty coverage. This is, by definition, not going to be remotely close to the common experience. Had I bought extended warranty coverage on my last three used cars - two Land Rovers and a Porsche - I would have lost money, and by definition that is the most probable outcome for anyone. Your parallel to collision insurance says more about your priorities than it does the products. Collision insurance covers an event most of us will have , and prices it very precisely based on a huge body of risk and repair cost data. The poor soul who buys extended warranty coverage on his new washer dryer combo or purchased flight insurance has almost nothing in common with the person who puts collision insurance on his car (especially if his leasing company compelled him to do so). As I said earlier, I don't judge anyone who chooses to pay a premium for predictability. But for me personally, if I was that scared of things going wrong with my car that I was willing to write a four digit cheque to be protected from it, I would conclude that maybe this car is over my head.

Pete Have a seat my friend...

Some of you guys are clearly showing religious convictions and proven facts will never change your minds.

I do enjoy my $10K + so far and keep on driving my fantastic 996 for the next 4 years without any worry whatsoever. A brand new clutch and transmission feel great. The enine growls happily, all the oil leaks repaired three times already for free.

palmbeacher- do you have a extended warranty co. that you could reccomend? I am shopping. Thanks- John

Bruce! very well put! Pete

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Sitting, the leather couch is comfy

The only thing I can guarentee is that every IMS thread gets interesting....

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This damn corn is gonna plug me up for sure!

Those of you that have purchased an aftermarket extended service contract help me decide which one to go with. My concern is really for the engine if the IMS bearing fails so I'm leaning towards the $1375 plan. 5 Year/150,000 Additional Miles- $1,375.00 Engine and Water Pump: The following parts are covered: pistons, piston rings, piston pins, crankshaft and main bearings, connecting rods and rod bearings, camshaft and camshaft bearings, timing chain and timing gears, intake and exhaust valves, valve springs, oil pump, push rods, rocker arms, hydraulic lifters, rocker arm shafts and water pump, seals & gaskets only when required in connection with the replacement of a covered part. Turbocharger/Supercharger (factory installed only): housing and all internal parts, seals & gaskets only when required in connection with the replacement of a covered part. Transmission/Transaxle: all internally lubricated parts of manual or automatic transmissions, including oil pump, drums, planetary, sun gear and shell, shafts, bearings, side gears, carrier, pinion gear, ring gear, shift rails, forks, and synchronizers, and torque converter. Transmission/transaxle case if damaged by internally lubricated covered part, seals & gaskets only when required in connection with the replacement of a covered part. Differential: all internally lubricated parts, seals & gaskets only when required in connection with the replacement of a covered part. Air Conditioning Coverage: all internally lubricated parts contained within the compressor, seals & gaskets only when required in connection with the replacement of a covered part. Electrical: alternator, voltage regulator, power window motor(s), heater fan/motor, starter motor. Fuel System: fuel delivery (mechanical) pump, fuel (gas & diesel) injection pump, metal fuel delivery lines, fuel tank. OR this 3 Year/36,000 Additional Miles- $3,259.00 Engine: Cylinder Block, Cylinder Head(s) and all internally-lubricated parts contained within the engine including: Pistons; Piston Rings; Connecting Rod Bearings; Crankshaft; Crankshaft Main Bearings, Camshaft; Camshaft Bearings; Cam Followers; Timing Chain or Belt; Timing Gears, Guides, Tensioners; Rocker Arms; Rocker Shafts; Rocker Bushings; Cylinder Head Valves; Valve Guides; Valve Lifters; Valve Springs; Valve Seals; Valve Retainers; Valve Seats; Push Rods; Water Pump; Oil Pump and Oil Pump Housing; Harmonic Balancer; Oil Pan; Timing Chain Cover; Flywheel/Flex Plate, Intake and Exhaust Manifolds; Valve Covers; Engine Mounts; Seals and Gaskets; Factory installed Turbochargers/Superchargers, including Housing, Internal Parts, Seals and Gaskets. Transmission: (Automatic or Standard) Transmission Case and all Internal Parts plus: Torque Converter, Flywheel/Flexplate, Vacuum Modulator; Electronic Shift Control Unit; Transmission Cooler; Transmission Mounts; Oil Pan; Seals and Gaskets. Transfer Case: Transfer Case and All Internal Parts; Seals and Gaskets. Drive Axle: (Front and Rear) Drive Axle Case; All Internal Parts contained within the Drive Axle; Locking Hubs; Drive Shafts; Universal Joints; Constant Velocity Joints; Axle Bearings; Four-Wheel Drive Actuator; Differential Cover; Seals and Gaskets. Cooling: Engine Cooling Fan and Motor; Fan Clutch; Belt Tensioner; Radiator; Heater Core; Thermostat; Blower Motor; Hot Water Valve. Steering: All Internal Parts contained within the Steering Box; Rack and Pinion Gear; Power Steering Pump; Power Steering Hoses; Steering Knuckles; Pitman Arm; Idler Arm; Tie Rod Ends and Drag Link; Upper and Lower Steering Column Shafts and Couplings, including Internal Tilt-Wheel Mechanism; Steering Box and Rack and Pinion Gear Housings; Seals and Gaskets; Rear Wheel Steering: Rear Steering Shaft and Couplings; Power Cylinder and Pump; Electronic Control Unit/Solenoid; Phase Control Unit; Stepper Motor; Steering Box; Control Valve; Rack; Tie Rod Ends; Seals and Gaskets. Brakes: Master Cylinder; Power Brake Cylinder; Vacuum Assist Booster; Hydro Boost; Disc Brake Caliper; Wheel Cylinders; Compensating Valve; Brake Hydraulic Lines and Fittings; Hydraulic Control Unit; Seals and Gaskets. The following ABS Parts are also covered: Electronic Control Processor; Wheel Speed Sensors; Hydraulic Pump/Motor Assembly; Pressure Modulator Valve/Isolation Dump Valve; Accumulator; Seals and Gaskets. Fuel Delivery: Fuel Pump; Fuel Injection Pump and Injectors; Vacuum Pump; Fuel Tank; Fuel Tank Sending Unit; Metal Fuel Delivery Lines. Air Conditioner: Condenser; Compressor, Compressor Clutch and Pulley; Air Conditioning Lines and Hoses; Evaporator; Idler Pulley and Idler Pulley Bearing; High/Low Compressor Cutoff Switch; Expansion Valve; Pressure Cycling Switch; Seals and Gaskets. The following parts are also covered if they are required in connection with the repair of a covered part listed above: Accumulator/Receiver Dryer; Orifice Tube; Oil and Refrigerant. Front and Rear Suspension: Upper and Lower Control Arms; Control Arm Shafts and Bearings or Bushings; Upper and Lower Ball Joints; Radius Arm and Bushings; Torsion Bars and Mounts or Bushings; Stabilizer Bar, Links and Bushings; Struts; Spindle and Spindle Support; Wheel Bearings; and Seals and Gaskets. Variable Dampening Suspension: Compressor; Control Module; Actuator; Solenoid; Height Sensor; Mode Selector Switch; Seals and Gaskets. Electrical: Alternator; Voltage Regulator; Starter Motor; Starter Solenoid and Starter Drive; Engine Compartment Wiring Harness; Computerized Timing Control Unit; Electronic Ignition Module; Crank Angle Sensor; Knock Sensor; Ignition Switch; Ignition Switch Lock Cylinder; Front and Rear Window Wiper Motor, Washer Pump and Switch; Stop Lamp Switch; Headlamp Switch; Turn Signal Switch; Heater/A.C. Blower Speed Switch; Manual Heater/ A.C. Control Assembly; and Horns. Enhanced Electrical: Automatic Climate Control Programmer; Electronic Instrument Cluster; Mileage Computer; Distributor; Ignition Coil; Electronic Combination Entry System (Does Not Include Transmitters and Receivers for Remote Locks); Cruise Control Module, Transducer, Servo and Amplifier; Powertrain Control Module; Headlamp Motors; Power Window Motor; Power Seat Motor; Power Mirror Motor; Power Antenna Motor/Mast Assembly; Convertible Top Motor, Power Sunroof Motor; Power Window Switch; Cruise Control Engagement Switch; Power Seat Switch; Power Mirror Motor Switch; Rear Defogger Switch; Power Door Lock Actuator and Switch.

Whos the contract with?

We need a poll on this one.

Copied from the email I received. Warranty Offered By: Auto Advantage Inc. Administered & Insured By: National/Dimension Service Corporation Underwriter: This coverage is directly underwritten by General Fidelity Insurance Company, a subsidiary of Bank of America ("A" rated by AMBest) for the highest level of financial security

I copied this from a BBB link on their website. This research is wearing me out and its a shame we have to really do this because we cant tell who is a crook and who is legitimate. The last thing I want is to buy and then go through torture to get a claim approved. I called one company and they had no idea what an Intermediate Shaft was or an IMS Bearing. The U/W and adjuster both told me "If it internal and chain driven to control the cams, its covered" I hope so, thats the part that is GRAY, I'm a New Yorker and I don't like GRAY AREAS. BBB Rating Back to Top Based on BBB files, this business has a BBB Rating of A+ on a scale from A+ to F. Click here for an explanation of BBB Ratings. Business Contact & Profile Back to Top Business Name: Auto Advantage Inc. Business Address: 3494 Overlook Avenue Yorktown Heights, NY 10598 See the location on a Mapquest Map See the location on a Google Map Original Business Start Date: 2/1/1979 Type of Entity: Corporation Incorporated: 1993 in NY Principal: Hal Moses, President/CEO Phone Number: [phone removed] [phone removed] [phone removed] Fax Number: [phone removed] Email Address: [email removed] BBB Accreditation: This business is a BBB Accredited Business Date Accredited by BBB: 3/24/2004 Type of Business: ROAD SERVICE-AUTOMOTIVE AUTO WARRANTY PROCESSING SERVICE Website Address: http://www.autowarranties.com http://www.thewarrantycenter.com http://www.autoroadservice.com

Thats the one I have on the saab....2yr/24000 miles for 1200 and the bought down my intrest rate by .5%. Havent used it yet though...nothing is broken yet....(crossing fingers)

Azrob226; I did not study all the info carefully bu two remarks instantly apparent: The first plan seems suspiciously inexpensive and this alone would raise a red flag. Are you sure it is 150K miles? The industry standard would be 12k a year. In any event it WILL NOT cover IMS or RMS leaks while the second plan you quoted would. Just that alone will make a difference. What would be the point of having a warranty which will not cover the most frequent repairs? Also, the first plan's A/C coverage is a joke. Compare with the second and you'll see what I mean. After another quick look it is apparent to me that the second plan is much superior. The one I have, EC, is even better.

What is EC?

In 1.5 years I had three repairs all fully paid. The shop just calls the 800 number, gets an approval and goes on with parts replacements. No involvement on my part ever needed. You pay a $200 deductible once per repair session, so if you combine many things, no matter how trivial and inexpensive, all you pay is $200. So far I spent only $400 on a whole list of new parts, all installed including factory new transmission since Jan 2009. EC= Easy Care

Here's one from AA Auto Protection 5 year/150K miles $1550 Engine: The following parts only are covered: pistons, piston rings, piston pins, crankshaft and main bearings, connecting rods and rod bearings, camshaft and camshaft bearings, timing chain and timing gears, intake and exhaust valves, valve springs, oil pump, push rods, rocker arms, hydraulic lifters, rocker arm shafts and water pump. Turbocharger/Supercharger (factory installed only and Surcharge is paid) housing and all internal parts. No other parts are included under this service contract. Seals and gaskets are only covered when required in connection with the replacement of a Covered Part. Transmission/Transaxle: All internally lubricated parts of Manual or Automatic Transmissions, including oil pump, drums, planetary, sun gear and shell, shafts, bearings, side gears, carrier, pinion gear, ring gear, shift rails, forks, synchronizers, and Torque Converter. Transmission/Transaxle Case if damaged by an internally lubricated Covered Part. Damage resulting from failures by related parts or units such as, but not limited to: Friction parts, such as clutches of any kind, levers, controls, linkage, cables, radiator, coolers, rubber mounts, external or internal metal or rubber lines or hoses, viscous couplings, CV and U-joints, drive axles and internal or external electrical components of the transmission are not covered. Seals and gaskets are only covered when required in connection with the replacement of a Covered Part. Transfer Case: All internally lubricated parts of the 4 X 4 Transfer Case. Transfer Case if damaged by an internally lubricated Covered part. Seals and gaskets are only covered when required in connection with the replacement of a Covered Part. Differential: All internally lubricated parts. Seals and gaskets are only covered when required in connection with the replacement of a Covered Part. Air Conditioning: All internally lubricated parts contained within the compressor, condenser, evaporator, orifice tube. Seals and gaskets are only covered when required in connection with the replacement of a Covered Part. Electrical: Alternator, voltage regulator, power window motor(s), heater fan/motor, starter motor. Seals and gaskets are only covered when required in connection with the replacement of a Covered Part. Fuel: Fuel delivery (mechanical) pump, fuel (Gas and Diesel) injection pump, metal fuel delivery lines, fuel tank.

Darn! They don't cover tires and tickets.

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Thanks. I'll return the gesture by ignoring all your juvenile comments, past, present and future. The warranty companies make billions on warranties for Hondas, Nissans, etc which do tend to just keep humming along. Porsches are prone to little bearings causing the destruction of an entire engine to the tune of roughly $18K but by the same token, amount to just a tiny percentage of cars sold world-wide, and thus just a tiny percentage of warranty sales, so the payouts represent just a tiny percentage of revenues. If the insurance companies operated exactly as you portray them, they would all refuse to write policies on Porsches. In fact the cost of payouts on Porsches, Mercedes and BMW comes back to the warranty companies in the form of advertising. Horror-stories of $11K-worth of repairs in a short time frame are what prompt millions who own Honda Accords to buy warranties they'll never use. I'm not arguing that warranties in general are a good investment, but from my experience they've been worthwhile on German and other European cars. I've never had so much as a fender-bender in almost 40 years of driving. Conversely I've had tens of thousands of dollars of auto repairs covered under extended warranties. And I won't judge anyone who believes four digits puts the car over his head but spending five digits on repairs isn't

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I've bought the majority of mine here: http://www.mbadirect.com . They've been in business since the 80s. All my warranties thus far were underwritten through Old Republic. I always go for their Gold plan if I can, it covers everything not specifically listed as exclusions. They only cost a couple hundred more for the lowest deductible, and my experience has been multiple minor repairs so I choose the low deductible. I did have their Silver plan twice, on older Volvos my kid was driving. Given they were simpler cars, the generic list of covered items pretty much was all-inclusive. On a car like a Mercedes or Porsche with very car-specific doodads, the exclusionary policy is the one to go with. One note, sadly the company at last I spoke could not write a warranty in Florida because Old Republic pulled out of the Florida market due to the hurricane situation and Florida's oppressive insurance regulations. MBA was looking for another company to write FL policies. My CPO goes until early next year, so I'll be shopping between now and then.

Does easy care cover a 99 with 95k miles? Where would one go to purchase the warranty, I heard you have to purchase the warranty (Easy Care) at the dealership. Any others to look into in CA?

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The first coverage does appear to have excellent coverage for items that do pretty much end their life cycle after 100k.

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Gosh, you're right. Warranty companies are vast socialistic charities, designed to protect everyone's sovereign right to own a Porsche. And you, sir, are a flawless representative sample of all car owners everywhere, your personal experience being 100% projectable to the general population. Moreover, all insurance companies spread their risk out across all car makes, everywhere, rather than rating each car make for risk individually. Thus, Porsche owners get special treatment. Because no socialistic charity would ever take advantage of the chance to charge a premium for warranty coverage just because a poor citizen happened to be unlucky in their choice of German sports cars, even if it means leaving money on the table. That would be unfair, and a breach of our rights. Thus, Toyota owners are taxed to protect we who drive 911s. It's only right. Mea culpa. I was wrong. Man, marketers must love you.

Sorry I'm late to the party. Move over on that couch.

Sorry, David. Nothing to see here. I've been schooled. Buying a warranty is cheaper than paying for repairs yourself, all the time on every car. And Porsche owners get a special break on account of how good Toyotas are. I don't know how I could have been so stupid.

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Can we invite that boob touching girl eating popcorn?

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Geez, why all the verbal flatulence? Don't buy an extended warranty if you don't want to. Nobody's forcing you to, it's as plain as that. It's your money.

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I appreciate the edit. Your original version of this post, which I received by email, was offensive. My position all along has simply been this: - Economically, the odds favour the insurer. That's a fact. - The value in a warranty lies in peace of mind for people who can't or choose not to afford surprises. So, yes, it's a personal choice. As to your continued insistence on insulting me - verbal flatulence? Up here we call that literacy - knock yourself out. Sticks and stones may break my bones, but I have an extended warranty for that.

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By "up here" I'm assuming you're referring to the lofty vantage from which you imagine yourself looking down upon the rest of us? Because literate, articulate and erudite people everywhere can recognize bloviating when they read it.

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As they can jackasses.

Oh for the love of Christ, would the thread starter please lock this train wreck. Top Right is a drop down called "Thread Tools" and you will find the option to CLOSE THREAD!

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here you go

...

I retract what I said..... I'm hoping this goes the full 12 rounds

Tell me how that boxer would be able to concentrate on his opponent with 'that' in the ring?

I's back into this thread too.. Go Ed Go !! bring on the round 3 girl

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And the match is on!!!!!

OH boy, getting scared to open this from work.... but still opening up with a big ole' smile

Hell of a lot better than discussions about extended warrantees. But still similar, they both only want your wallet.

God she's hot. Playboy hot.

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I like 'Round 2 Girl' better........man I would love to take a nap in those shorts!

Petite brunettes do it for me, but I hear ya.

Let's not go OT. I've experienced an IMS failure in person. Which of those girls has a warranty? (Please let it be Rd. 2)

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We're not going off topic we're just indexing the arguments for easy referral.

Sorry for the late arrival, gentleman.......but I believe that the empty chair over there, close to the ring is mine! Nurse! ger me a drink please...........damn the traffic was tough! No porscheplatz parking for this match........hey, where is the next girl?????Hmmmm, I'm thinking blonde............

^ as requested. I think its a 4 anyways..

Man oh man, I love these seats.......hmmm, GT3 seats with lap belts????????? Naw, ringside here helps me take my mind of the elective surgury the baby is having (IMS replacement)...... now how about a stiking red head to even out the playing field......

Wait could be a 10 in in my book ...if she only knew how easy she could have......

how could you miss (1)

btw - who's fightin'

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Showing off your wife again? You know the 996 section isn't as good since you took a break and changed cars. I'm not sure which is worse if one is.

Ivangene....at this point, does it really matter? as long as it goes the distance.......the full distance, maybe even extra innings, double D overtime..........a few extra rounds...........NURSE!!!!! ANOTHER ROUND...ON THE HOUSE!

Petite brunettes with slutty tattoos & stretch marks make me happy. She's a go'er!

Ohhhhhhh my lord.....its the Boston Crab!

Let's not cheapen the thread.

I don't know, cheap is interesting. Ever seen that "people of Walmart" site <puke>

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Your kidding... right?

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You air-cooled guys really know how to.....hey Ed, I'd let the girl in red pin me anyday(just kidding dear).

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YES and in Ed's photo it's the wrestler in the white FTW!

She looks constipated!

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Brings a better meaning to "let's get ready to rumble!"

After tuning out of this thread a little while ago, I'm somewhat pleased i re-visited What were we talking about again?

And after a brief intermission......

Thats my back yard when I'd have them fight to see who gets me. Then they convinced me to take them both on Good thing they at least learned how to tap out.

WHoa. I need to tap out....

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I agree with ivan and van,having done this service personaly i would have to say you are probably not going to have ***** bouncing around in your motor... buy the time the ims fails the berrings usualy look like chiped metal.. not ball bearings. If you hear any "weird noises" get the car looked at... Brian Rudtners Racing Group Rudtnersracing.com

I came across this video... I have no idea how old it is, but it seems Mark Wahlberg's 996 had an IMS failure. (And I didn't want to start a new thread for that...) http://www.tmz.com/videos/?mediaKey=...sShareURL=true

Van Van Van............stirrin' the pot

good lord, why would you put any sort of a sauce on good a Filet Mignon ?

What round is it any ways??

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Fix it for ya!

So, if I keep stirring, you guys keep posting pictures?!? (it's like we have our own "hit-it" thread!)

A ring a ding ding! Give that man a prize.

"But the OEM bearing is sealed, so the engine oil does not lubricate it, so I am not sure how much of an impact oil changes have on the sealed bearing. In my case I followed the LN Engineering advice and removed the outer seal on my OEM bearing so now it does receive lubrication from the engine oil. Also, on the LN bearing there is no outer seal so the engine oil does provide lubrication." That's about the only realistic analysis of the problem in this thread. Bottom Line: You don't use a double sealed bearing internal to an engine or transmission and when it's non-serviceable & could result in a catatrophic failure!

yea IMS.....

^ Ed will catch hell for this ring girl from Mark. knuckle sighting.

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OK, Ill go down with Ed.... What round are we in?

Just did the IMS bearing upgrade on my 100k+ mile 99 996C4. The original bearing was completely soaked with engine oil but the bearing were still in good shape.

Robin 993DX - so do you mean the sealed bearing was no longer sealed but soaked with oil?

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The seals were still on the bearing (popped it off to check for bearing condition after it was removed). But the inside were completely soaked with engine oil, so obviously the cover/seal didn't do it's job in keeping the grease inside. The bearing rolls very smooth no noise. I can only remotely guess that it is because I change my oil every 7000 miles and always used Mobil 1 0w40 (lighter weight) and used this car as a daily driver?

Good job Robin, how did you go with collapsing that retaining ring on the double row bearing, did it seem like a lot of force required ? Did it collapse with a bang?

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A lot of force was required at first, I was worried about the tools breaking. So turning it out slowly a little at a time to let is settle and rest. And then all the sudden "Pop" after that it came out with ease. The retaining ring were very thin and small. One note to be aware of is that prior to this job I was looking at some of the older instructions on some web site where the extraction tool used were different which require you to pop the shaft into the housing. I did that first and realized that the shaft was needed by the new extraction tool to pull the bearing out from behind. I frantically used a magnet to fish out the shaft from behind the IMS bearing. Luckily I am pretty good at fishing.. :P

Ha! I did the samething! I pulled the flange off and the IMS bolt popped into the shaft. My heart sunk. But did the samething you did getting it out. I would recommend leaving the flange nut on a couple threads until the flange is loose from the engine.

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Sounds like a good tip - I have this task on my near term to do list... IMS kit is sitting in a box waiting to be installed.

If the IMS bearing was filled with oil, the bearing was beginning to fail.. Stage 1 bearing failure occurs when the outer seal is compromised and the permanent lubrication is washed away. The pictured IMS bearing was fitting loose in the tube, hence the fret marks on it's outer diameter.. This is a case where I use loctite 640 to mount the bearing more firmly into the tube, so it doesn't depend so much on the snap ring. The directions that call for the stud to be knocked into the tube aren't older, they are just for the pro-grade puller which was the only puller we had available until I designed the DIY puller last year. We still prefer to use the pro-puller so I have kept those instructions on my site for others that use that puller as well. The dual row bearing uses a lot of force to be removed from the tube, but generally I load the bearing up pretty heavily, walk up stairs into my office and 10-15 minutes later I hear a "pop" and the bearing then comes out like nothing. BTW_ IMS Bearing kits do no good sitting in the box, not too long ago someone that didn't want to do without his car in the "nice weather" cost himself a new engine when he kept his IMS bearing in the box one minute too long. He "didn't have any symptoms" but neither do the majority of people that die from a heart attack. The IMS bearing doesn't have to ask your permission to fail, it doesn't have to have any symptoms and it isn't prejudice.. We had 3 failure calls before lunch today, two were IMS related and another fell to a cracked cylinder head. Nothing like a failure Monday to stimulate the economy!

Jake, you are the man!

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Nope.. Just well experienced.

That is a fact, Sir.

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To add to this, we (Robin and I) did this similarly. First pull we loaded-up the tool with a healthy amount of torque on the nut, then relaxed it, then loaded it up again with hoping the wire retainer had collapsed enough to clear the groove in the shaft. The second 'load-up' greeted us with a very constant and productive bearing removal action. Similar action to removing output flanges from front drive Japanese transmissions (or the 996 gbx for that matter).