PDK: is more less?

Interesting discussion on the 997 forum about issues with the PDK systems and the difficulties with the electronics. That is a rather short digest of the topic but it addresses the issues of complex sophisticated technology vs the simple elegance of older technology. The role of engine management systems in producing power and reducing emissions, the role of computers and motors in turning a sequential gearbox into a robotic system that can shift gears in miliseconds but also put you on a flatbed home, stabilizing systems to try and keep a car on the road when the driver can't...and all these "advances" add weight and generate heat and can be nightmares to diagnos failure in. Interested in hearing thoughts on our modern cars and the point of diminishing returns. t

For cash-poor people looking for air-cooled, rear-engine, manual transmission coupe...I present Porsche* model 968. No electronic equipment present. just air cooled motor in the rear and 5 speed manual transmission.

Well the 968 is less electronically complex than the latest Porsche models, but significantly more than the thing you posted.....?

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Porsche * 968 review. review of the ZAZ 968/ Тест-драйв ЗАЗ 968 м - YouTube

I'd love to find a nice 968 Club Sport...

The more complexity introduced into any system, the more likely there will be a failure somewhere. Its the cost of progress, but I'll still take simplicity given the chance. More technology does not mean something is necessarily better

That's why most modern cars are disposable. Sure they are very reliable compared to the old vehicles but once things start to go bad it costs more to diagnose and replace those electronic components than it does to work on and fix mechanical equivalents. Much easier to just crush it and start with something new.

Most Indy mechanics have little to no experience with PDK or other sequential manual gearboxes, especially the highly complex ones. But they can change 2 - 3 clutches a day on a good old manual tranny. The owner of which would you rather be?

Another poaching from the 997 forum is about the future engines of 911s. And this relates to the PDK complexity...the most disturbing point the article makes is this..."You can't afford to keep an engine for 10 years any more." It may well be that from the 996 forward we are all driving disposable cars. Too expensive to repair or rebuild? Too obsolete to license for the road? We will no longer have the choice of ownership... all cars will be leased from the manufacturer and they will take them back and issue us a new one based on when the governments tell them too. And so the death of another form of private property. Below the text from the 997 forum... Porsche 911 range goes turbo The next 911 range update will bring turbos for sub-GT3 models. Paul Horrell reports on the end of an era The turbocharger continues its march across some of our most cherished engines. The next batch of Porsche 911s will get blowers for the mainstream models, Porsche's engineering chief Wolfgang Hatz told us at the Detroit show. "You have to respect legal requirements [for lower CO2], so yes we're thinking turbos for standard 911s. You can't afford to keep an engine for 10 years any more." He had earlier explained that the new 911 GT3 RS, which will be launched in March at the Geneva show, features an all-new very powerful naturally aspirated engine. A version of that engine, with turbos but less power, strangely, will be what's in the facelifted 911s in 2016. "Emissions are important for us," said Hatz, "And we will reduce faster than the industry. Every new model will have lower CO2 than before. There aren't so many technologies to do it. If you look at euro per g/km then it's turbo. Then at the end of the decade electrification has to be the next huge step." Does that mean a hybrid for the all-new 911? "Yes." With expertise from the 918 and 919 racer, Porsche is in a good position. He also acknowledged that Porsche is developing a four-cylinder turbo for the Cayman and Boxster ranges from 2016. Is it a flat four? "It's not an in-line four or a V4." Will it go into the 911? "Never. That's always a flat six." Phew. Again in pursuit of better economy and performance, Hatz said Porsche is working on an all-new V8 for the next generation of Cayenne and Panamera. These cars also have to get lighter. He said the objective for the next Cayenne V6 is under two tonnes, even though it will add equipment. At the moment it's nearly 2100kg. But you don't want to know about base-model SUVs, you want to know about hot semi-racers. He confirmed there is a Cayman GT4 coming this year. He said it's developed by the motorsport department who do the GT versions of the 911. It will have about 400bhp, and be usefully lighter than a standard car. It's more hardcore than the old Cayman R, he said, and is "for customers who want an entry race car." And the 911 GT3 RS will be at the Geneva show. Hatz said the existing GT3 surprised people by how civilised it is. He says the GT3 RS is a bigger jump from the GT3 than there was in the 997-generation GT3 to GT3 RS. So we're looking at a pretty rabid car. But if that's not enough, what about people who want more: a GT2 with turbos? "We have so many 911 variants," - this was minutes after they'd launched the Targa 4 GTS - "but customers do ask for a GT2, and we will decide."

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That's classic. I drove one of those when I was in Armenia in 2006. Actually its a 4 speed and I had trouble finding reverse. LOL

Three pedals for me, thanks..

Regardless of our feelings on the topic, the PDK is here to stay. The combination of fuel efficiency, reliability during the warranty period, and reducing manufacturing complexity by eliminating the manual option makes it attractive for manufacturers. There is also essentially NO demand for manuals in the US. Before you argue with me on that last point - when I checked inventory @ San Diego Porsche six months ago (give or take), approx. 3% of their inventory was equipped with a standard transmission - out of 99 cars, 3 had manuals. The dealer stocks what people want to buy - and people clearly have no interest in driving a car with a manual transmission. I also learned that if you moan about this fact in OT, you get flamed - evidently, very few people share my affinity for manual gearboxes. I suppose it's probably better for the majority of people anyway - most drivers can barely manage competently driving from point A to point B using a steering wheel, a "go" pedal, and a "stop" pedal...adding a gear lever and a clutch pedal back in would certainly overwhelm the Kardashian generation. Dealerships no longer fix stuff - they just replace stuff. When our Murano's CVT started slipping - almost certainly because of the drive belt - they replaced the entire transaxle. Someday, once environmental laws catch up to the third world, it may once again be cheaper to repair something than it will be to ship a new part stateside and ship containerloads of slightly busted stuff back to China and India to be broken down and recycled. Until then, dealership technicians will be forbidden from cracking open and working on transmissions, engines, etc. - so our only options for getting these items repaired will be the indies.

I am so glad I grew up when I did and was able to experience classic 60's hot rods, them moved on to brand new cars from the 90's and now pretty much only buy stuff that is 10 years old, except for the SUV - because who cares, it's an SUV. In 10 years I will be looking for cars that are 20 years old or maybe at that point I will just go back to 60's and 70's cars if that becomes too problematic. Assuming "they" still let us....

Maybe it is time for auto enthusiasts to look at Cuba as our role model. A 1965 Alfa Romeo GTV starts looking very efficient and cost effective. 1600cc all aluminium dual OHC, dual 40mm Webers, 5 spd, 2+2, disc brakes, designed to be serviced in your driveway, great fun to drive...or an outlaw 356...or a Mk 1 GTI. And if you're listening Jesus, can you bring back payphones?

The same FUD factor applied to electronic ignition replacing points, fuel injection replacing carbs, e-throttle's replacing cables, ABS replacing conventional brakes, smart busses replacing individual wires, electrically assisted power steering replacing hydraulic, and the issues apply to every car currently manufactured from the cheapest Honda to a new 918. What exactly is the point of the discussion? To question if technology improvements can often cause hiccups and make things much harder to self repair? Seems like that is a given. A 1960's MG will have none of the above, I hear they are really reliable...

I bought a stick Porsche because I find clutching and rowing a stick an exhiliarating part of the Porsche experience, along with the noise and stiff ride of a Porsche. If I grow tired of a manual, I will also be tired of those other things. So I'll get an automatic Mercedes again. Nothing against PDK, I just don't want a Porsche without a stick.

The pre-owned market seems much more fond of manuals than new car buyers. Low-end new car buyers are kids who don't know how to drive a manual; I suspect many new Porsches go to old guys who don't wanna deal with it and/or their cardiologists won't allow it, as well as their trophy wives who would otherwise be part of the first category.

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Yep- Id like to see a new , light , low cost , model - that is cheap to repair - but reliable. I think it's called a mazda Miata. With some more power and a porsche badge/styling - I'm sure there would be a big market - but perhpas not as profitable as cayennes, panamerra etc. If I look at all the parts failing on my 12 yo 996 - it's microswicthes, water pumps, alternator, electric windows. Much of this is quite easy to repair , if not cheap. I'd probably also stay away from a 10 yo pdk for exactly this reason ....

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The point is that cumulatively the new technology has reached a point of diminishing returns for the enthusiast/user/buyer. Of course it makes it cheaper for the manufacturer (and politically opportune for the government) but the greater complexity causes greater fragility...and that ain't good for the buyer. However if a car isn't worth (or too expensive) repairing it probably isn't worth buying. Which brings us to a world in which we never own a car, we just lease it. The car becomes a public utility engineered to create a contiuous cycle of debt. And this leads to modern day socio-economic trends and theories based on debt and inflation and social engineering. Cradle to the gave social planning will now include what you are allowed to drive as you travel from the cradle to the grave...decided by a partnership between government and regulated industry. You can see it in the comments of the Porsche executive as he talks about where Porsche engineering and design are going. Will the successor to the 991 be the first "virtual Porsche?" As for the 1960 MG...they were more reliable because they were more repairable. In those days all you needed was a screwdriver...now you need a flatbed.

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The comment about the MG was sarcasm ... The point is that even though you could try to repair them with nothing more than a screwdriver, vice-grips, and a hammer, they were completely unreliable POS's. As were most 60's 'pre-technology' cars. One could also argue that modern rust preventative measures alone have more than offset mechanical complexity in terms of keeping a car running and driving for a long time.

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Not sure how many times a car becomes POS because the owner(s) let it decay rather than taking car of it. In addition to the Porsche 356 cars, I think the 1957-1961 Alfa Romeo Giulietta Sprint Veloce represents asolute excellence in design. Again, if you took care of it, it would take care of you. I will make a concession to the new technology...I like the motor oils.

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So just to make sure I'm understanding your position, you are suggesting that a 1960 Alfa is overall more reliable car and capable of lasting for more miles and years of service than, say a 2015 Cayman with PDK, ABS, ECUs, SRS, OBDII, PASM, PSM, TPMS, Electronic Power Steering, Throttle-by-wire, VarioCam, Dynamic transmission mounts, Electronic torque vectoring, etc? I say that is hogwash... Not even close. Yes, every one of those advanced Cayman systems has failure modes, many require specialized equipment to diagnose and repair, and can mean expensive parts. But the overall MTBF of the entire car as a package is a fraction of what was typical in the 60's... And to reiterate again, it really doesn't matter if you can replace the ball joints for the fifth time, install your third set of tranny syncro' and twelfth set of spark plugs yourself on an alfa if the frame and body has rotted out around it. Now if you are a survivalist looking for a post-apocolypse or post-emp vehicle that you can keep running yourself to outrun the bands of marauders (of course converted to wood alcohol for fuel since there will be little or no oil refined) I'd say a sixties vehicle would be perfect. Though I'd probably take a Ford pickup or maybe an International Scout over an Alfa or 356.

John, if you enjoy spending your weekends tinkering with a constantly breaking car- you are a minority. 95% of people don't know how to add oil to their car, so ease of repair is not a priority. Reliable car is a car that starts every day, never strands you, and can serve for years with just basic maintenance and almost never requires non-scheduled repair. 1960s Alfa's and MG's are not reliable cars, in reality they are a post card for a piece-of-**** junk; hence the reason why MG and Afra are still so successful in American market and their market share is still so high. You want a reliable car that will last you 1,000,000.00 miles with basic maintenance- you buy a Honda or Toyota product. Period. They are not "pretty", but from engineering stand point they are phenomenal compared to the POS British and Italian cars. Pretty styling of the European vehicles does not equal superior engineering. Here , find me a similar site for MG/Jaguar/Alfa/Fiat cars.

More complexity and higher technology does not necessarily mean that there is "more to go wrong". Compare fuel injection to carburation. Fuel injection requires computerized controls, usually more parts and pieces, more precise engineering, etc. Carburetors are relatively simple devices, and in the 60s and 70s, the same model carburetor could be used on several different engines over different brands of car. But, I can tell you I have spent many more hours troubleshooting carburation problems, rebuilding carburetors, trying to balance carburetors, etc. than I have ever spent on dealing with fuel injection problems. Fuel injection meters fuel more precisely causing the fuel to burn more efficiently, depositing less unburned fuel into the engine, lengthening the life of motor oil and the engine in general. These same principles and benefits apply to many of the mechanical and electrical systems in automobiles. In fact, modern electronics and greater technology is really the salvation of the automobile. If cars were as inefficient, as prone to accidents, and as short lived as they were in the 50s, 60s, and especially 70s, they would be even more politically incorrect than they are deemed now (by the greenies). Sure, I miss the ability to look at a simple engine compartment, my old 1969 Charger for example, and being able to tell immediately what is causing the engine to miss, overheat, etc. Simplicity has some benefits, but by and large they don't outweigh the vast benefit of good applied technology.

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Actually my 77 Alfa Sedan was amazingly reliable. I tracked it almost every other month, drove it to work every day, all it required was maintaining it by the book. It did have fuel injection...a mechanical unit that was easy to tune and adjust. I'm not the type who likes to work on cars and so I appreciated the Alfa's balance and performance built in at the factory. The early 60 Giuliettas Veloces were even simpler and were designed for the Europeon open road races like the Mille Miglia and Targa Florio and the German long distance track events. I also had good experiences with a couple of mid 70s Honda Civics and a 1985 RX7 SE. Now we are into the electric car era. In a study of carbon footprints I was amazed to see how cars like the Tesla and Volt make 80% of the environmental impact during their manufacturing. And it is significantly larger than the manufacturing footprint made by a traditional gasoline engine car. On the road of course the electric car uses less energy...and in only ten years it makes up for all the carbon it used in its manufacturing. In essence, in ten years time it is almost a draw. My gut tells me that if we used modern manufacturing technology to make a retro-simple car, we would have the best of both worlds.

Off-topic but... I would take it that your 77 Alfa used SPICA? If so, it's okay to concede that it was an utter failure, and there only exists a small niche group of people who deny its failure and convince the world at all costs that it was the best system ever designed. The rest of the world moved on to electronic fuel injection leaving Wes Ingram the only specialist to this unique fuel injection system? Lots of respect for the man, but only one specialist? No thanks. I appreciate that Alfa Romeos are beautiful cars, but sadly, the folks behind their design and manufacturing process did not think long term as they never lived to see the future, unlike Porsche. And to say the folks in Cuba are a good example, they are simply victims of circumstance of their political policies and what have you. Having owned a 78 Alfa Romeo Spider, it was fun while it lasted, but it tore me apart every time something went wrong with it and it was just a money pit that brought no value or satisfaction aside from sitting on ones driveway. It wasn't fun tinkering with it - it was a bloody chore, and a God forsaken one at that. I even went as far as leaving the keys in the car hoping it would get stolen but sadly, even the thieves were smart enough to leave me a note on the windshield that said "F*** You!" I can't tell if this is simply trolling or genuine discussion. Regardless, I fell for the trap so call me a sucker.

I love my 996 but can't wait to one day get a more technology advanced 991 (or later) with PDK. .....as well as other electronic stuff.

[QUOTE=johnireland;11964604]Actually my 77 Alfa Sedan was amazingly reliable. I tracked it almost every other month, drove it to work every day, all it required was maintaining it by the book. It did have fuel injection...a mechanical unit that was easy to tune and adjust. I'm not the type who likes to work on cars and so I appreciated the Alfa's balance and performance built in at the factory. The early 60 Giuliettas Veloces were even simpler and were designed for the Europeon open road races like the Mille Miglia and Targa Florio and the German long distance track events. [/QUOTE When assessing the reliability of an Alfa you have to consider rust as a failure mechanism. I had a '69 Fiat Sport Coupe that was amazingly reliable, but only after I spent umpteen of my teenage free hours repairing the body.

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not me. That is the last thing I would want to own with a bunch of miles and age on it, which typically is the only way I can afford cars like these.

Really? You don't think in ten or twelve years they'll be selling for $16,000 to $18,000? I'm 99% joking but you can find 997's now for $35,000. Granted they'll have a few miles but properly maintained...... We'll see.

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...and reliability and Veglia Borletti cannot coexist in the same sentence!

There are two kinds of people, those who enjoy the process, and those who only care about the results. If you enjoy the process, learning to drive a manual transmission car con brio is a reward in itself. In golf, the search for the perfect tee shot is never ending. With a manual transmission, the perfect double clutched downshift through a few gears while braking into a decreasing-radius corner is an equally elusive goal. With PDK, the results-oriented person finds their virtue at two ends of the speed spectrum. At low speeds, having the drivetrain manage the transmission is a relief from the drudgery of manual shifting, and opens Porsche ownership to drivers who have never mastered a manual. At the track, the lightning fast shifts, at the right time, can shave seconds off your lap times, freeing you to focus on braking, and cornering entry. Neither one is bad, in and of itself, but each holds a different sort of appeal. Whichever one appeals to you, there's a model that can accommodate your desires.

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This is pretty well spot on. It depends on how big your garage is, and what you're capable or willing to do yourself as far as maintenance and upgrades. What are your expectations from a given vehicle? I have modern, reliable cars that are useful. But, my love of driving also dictates that I own some stuff that does need tinkering. I don't mind, but I wouldn't want my 74 Trans Am or 70 Stingray to be my only option. I think my AMG S55 and my 996 offer a pretty good value in performance and reliability.

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Cuba??? Have you been there? I've been there many times and have actually looked inside the engine bays on their cars. Many of these cars engines have been changed with other brands. The bodies look old but the original running gear was long swapped out. The Cubans are fantastic at jerry rigging solutions such as old Buick's with a Volvo engine and the like and they are quite proud at finding solutions to broken / worn out parts. But the reasons for this is not because the cars are easy to work on in your driveway its because the average person there have no choice. They do have quite a few new cars running around - Toyota Corolla's seems to be the most popular of the wealthy class (Government) but there are lots of Mercedes you see driving around that you are 'told' are foreign diplomats yet look suspiciously Cuban to me. I also saw a C6 on the island! I freaked out when I saw it and asked around and was told it was owned by a Canadian oil well driller (yes Cuba has oil) from Calgary whom is working down there on a long term deal so he had it shipped in. One assumes it goes home with him. I hope the guy isn't married...