Are you a gambler? Would you buy it?

Hi there 996 Forum, I am writing you as my 2005 Porsche Cayenne Turbo met an unfortunate end and I would like to stay in the Porsche saddle. I am currently interested in a 2003 C4S with only 47,959 miles. However, according to the service record history that the dealership provided (I'm not sure they read them...) the car has had some issues that were 'corrected'. Main examples: 02APR2003 - 2,459 miles, engine replaced 03MAY2006 - 22,961 miles, RMS fixed 25AUG2009 - 34,167 miles, engine rebuilt due to IMS failure. The car appears to be in very nice condition and it has an asking price in the upper $20's, but considering the low miles and the fact that it is a C4S make it look like an appealing buy. Given the cars history, would you roll the dice and think that the IMS issue will not rear its ugly head again? Do you think that they would have repaired the IMS with the upgraded unit by 2009? Are you a gambler? Thanks for any input, I'm going back to reading about other peoples IMS issues.. Regards, DC Josh

The appropriate question isn't if we are gamblers. What about you? I'd like to see the 2009 rebuild invoice, listing what was replaced. I thought in 2009 Porsche was still selling complete engines, and the cores were making their way back to Stuttgart. For a price in the mid 25s, I'd jump on it.

yikes. I dunno. Totally depends on what that rebuild means, who did it, etc. If it's a factory replacement motor and now has under 15K miles on that motor, well - that could be a pretty nice find depending on the price. But if that is a rebuild of the first replacement motor, I would be very skeptical without a lot more details, personally.

It's likely an entirely new engine. Go for it.

I have never attached anything before, I hope this works...

25AUG2009 - 34,167 miles, engine rebuilt due to IMS failure. need much more info

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you should probably blackout the customer's personal information.

Stay away. Cursed cars are like jinx people, you stay the **** away! Car is on the third engine after 35k miles. That's like a woman divorced 4 times, and you are considering being her 5th husband.

I would be all over this car if you can validate the engine work. Great car and a real keeper!

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Information attached. I will do that, if I can. Interesting, on one hand I agree, on another, I think they are just machines... I'm not sure what else I can do outside of the service paperwork that was provided. Any ideas?

To some extent, we all took a gamble (though I prefer CALCULATED RISK) when we decided to buy a 996 in spite of its "scary" reputation. Get the car checked by a competent tech and if findings are OK & corroborate the car's service history, then my vote is GO FOR IT.

It sounds like they found the IMS was failing (failed) but had yet to cause a catastrophic failure. So they rebuilt the engine. Basically cleaned out the metal from the failed IMS. That all sounds great. My only question is what IMS bearing is in there now? The engine is from 2003 and I am not sure of they were using the upgraded IMS bearings yet. If they just put a regular old Porsche IMS bearing back in I would buy the car and have an upgraded IMS bearing installed. But I am not sure in 2003 if they were using the larger, unserviceable bearing, that needs the case split to fix.

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I am going to err on the side of caution and assume that there is an old bearing in there and replace it with the upgraded version. Fortunately, I am studying automotive engineering and the class that I am in this semester encourages using our own cars as projects. This one is looking more and more like a contender.

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This is exactly what I was thinking. Some things are good and some are bad

I only see one major problem with a rebuild at the dealer. Where did they get the specs to rebuild it to? I thought Porsche never published clearances or tolerances for anything in this engine. How would they know of the crank was good? How would they know if the rod bearing clearances were good? How could they possibly pull off a decent rebuild without the specs to do so. They were guessing... I would guess this car hasn't seen its last engine.

I believe the bigger bearings have proved to have a less than a 1% failure rate, which is why they were excluded from the IMS settlement. I suspect there is no way to tell which bearing you have without dropping the engine or transmission. If it has the smaller bearing, concur with swapping it out with the LNE bearing. I put no stock in the cursed car theory. It's a machine, not a mentally disturbed woman. What are we, freaking gypsies or something?

run....

Yes based on what I'm hearing I would run far fast and far. There are so many no story cars out there for cheap. This one would have to be under $15k for me to even think about thinking about it.

the money and mileage is appealing for a reason the car has been taken apart twice, engine / transmission taken out stuff gets missed what is Manhattan Motors reputation for rebuilding motors ?

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An RMS is not an engine. An RMS is a cheap seal that tends to leak. An RMS is not a big deal. That car is on engine #2. Huh? You really think a dealership would rebuild an engine and warranty their work based on guesswork? A dealership has access to more Porsche engine data than any independent. Dealerships also very rarely venture outside of what Porsche recommends, and in the case of M96 rebuilds they almost always replace, not rebuild. So I suspect any parts that needed replacement were actually replaced. To the OP, it wouldn't concern me. If it's a good running and driving car with a clean bill of health, I would definitely buy it. That's a good price for a C4S.

Thanks for every ones input, I still have a little bit of time to wait until my insurance process is finished with my Cayenne so I am still on the hunt.

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YES! I do think they would do just that. I have NEVER heard of dealerships having access to engine rebuild specs which is exactly why almost none were "rebuilt" at dealerships. Can you verify that this dealer actually had the specs from Porsche in order to effect a quality rebuild? The onus is on Porsche, not the dealer. The dealer did what Porsche recommended, even if it was beyond the scope of the shops abilities. I suspect that if dealer techs had access to rebuild specs for these engines they would have leaked to the public a decade ago. The ONLY specs I have heard of are the ones Raby developed based on experience. I too would run, not walk from this project car.

I agree. Car is brand new, engine blows at 2459 miles??? WTF?? Then that new engine blows up too??? Sounds like another Christine to me but at least that car repaired itself.

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What? I will attribute your lack of mathematical aptitude to a long 3 day weekend hangover. 02APR2003 - 2,459 miles, engine replaced (Engine #2 goes in) 03MAY2006 - 22,961 miles, RMS fixed 25AUG2009 - 34,167 miles, engine rebuilt due to IMS failure. (Engine #3 goes in)

If the third engine was replaced instead of rebuilt I would have no qualms. The way to differentiate the two is to use the engine serial number. It will look like m96/03SAT665 where the AT means rebuild and the 5 means rebuilt in 2005. If it is engine #2 the last digit will be either 2 or 3, if engine #3 is a factory rebuild it will be 9. There is nothing wrong with buying an old car with a fresh engine unless you are paying for a numbers matching hemi. To read the engine number take a picture of it with a phone. It can be done without jacking the car up.

I'm with the naysayers, Josh. Too much kale for a pig in a poke. Lots of fish in the sea. Tuck your insurance cash away and look patiently for your next car.

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Reminds me of a great exchange from "Sports Night" I'm fluent in four languages you know. Four?! You speak French, Spanish and German. I do pretty good in English as well. Oh, yeah.

My brother claims the correct phrase is "Too much sugar for a dime". Not sure why that makes sense to him but he says it often about my projects.

I'm not sure what kale, pigs, sugar and dimes have to do with anything... But,,,,,, The temptation is so strong.... Like I said, I am still learning about the car so it is great that I am getting feedback from both sides on what I may be in for. As an Engineering Automotive Technology major here at Minnesota State, we are encouraged to work on our own cars. I figured, what better way to fill my love of Porsche while at the same time, progressing my knowledge of Automotive Systems? I have a lot to consider, I will keep you all informed as I go. Again, thank you for the feed back, it is worthwhile. Regards, DC Josh

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Actually I may have been drunk when I posted that. They don't teach us that complex math in engineering school. But I would still buy the damn car if I liked it, they're all a crapshoot.

This is very applicable to this thread and Porsche buying in-general. I just watched the movie and found this scene to be one of the best in the film. The Position of **** You (John Goodman in The Gambler) - YouTube

I don't know if I'm a gambler, but you got to know...

Both of those clips are very relevant to this thread and my interests. Maybe it does not need to be this C4S. How are the higher mileage examples of the 996? I am getting a feeling that if I can find a car with around 100k on the clock with a detailed service history and a PPI (of course), I can lower the depreciation aspect of the purchase even more and be in a better position if the IMSB does decide to give me issues. Or maybe I just like to gamble. I just dont feel right going back to any other make right now. The logical choice to make is just get a Cooper S while I am in school and be done with it. I never said I was logical though. Thanks again for the input though. Regards, DC Josh

Bruh, if your still in school, forget this POS with unending CEF's and wait. The you can get the car you want. A student with a project 996 is not a good combination.

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Thanks, but I'm not your average 'student'. I separated from active duty service and am going to school on the GI Bill. I am also studying Automotive Engineering and students 'project' cars are always needed. But thanks. I'm still looking and on the fence at the same time.

Actually, going the route of a high mileage, inexpensive 996 with a good service history is not a bad way to go with your first Porsche. There are lots of nice higher mileage cars in the $13,000 to $15,000 range. If you lose the engine, sell the carcass for $5,000 and you're max loss is $10,000. On the other hand, that car might run like a champ for 3 or 4 years and you might sell it for close to what you paid for it. That's what I did with my 964 - net depreciation of $150 over 5 years and 40k miles.

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GI Bill is not a FU position. You don't need a old super-car in college, trust me. Unless you have additional funds coming from somewhere to have a comfortable stream of DI, 996 is not a good college car. You don't want to be choosing between books and set of tires. Also, parking a 911 on campus would be very unwise. There are plenty of haters out there and having and aged super-car on the lot with a lot of young guys with excess testosterone is a bad idea. I am four years removed from college, so I have been there and done that. A good choice for a college car is a Honda/Acura or Toyota/Lexus, period. Pick the one you like, hold it through college. Use the money you saved on maintenance to buy a 911 once you graduate.

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Jesus H. Christ, when did I ask about how I should pay for the car or where I should keep it safe? Are all 996 drivers Guidance Counselors now?

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Yes.

If I had it to do over again, I would probably buy a cheaper, high mileage car. Then I wouldn't be facing the potential of so large a depreciation at some point. That being said, I really like the one I bought, so I'm hopeful (as I would be with any car) that it will be a solid ride for many years.

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Well, you probably won't like the answer, but the "rebuild" operation doesn't need this info, really. I have come across one 996 in a dealer service bay for "rebuild" after a failed IMSB. The engine was fine until the IMSB failed. Luckily the owner upon hearing the bearing noise shut down the engine and the Porsche tech working from Porsche guidelines determined the engine was "rebuildable". He proceeded to disassemble the engine and identify what was required. Other than the IMS and a new IMSB and a few chain guides -- the composite plastic coverings had been damaged -- that was all that was needed. Now, as i mentioned above the engine was healthy before the IMSB. It had not been manifesting any symptoms of an engine with worn out main or rod bearings, the crank journals and main bearings looked just fine (I took pics of these). The cylinder bores showed no signs of wear/tear and the pistons and rings looked healthy. While not a by the book and with micrometer and bore gage "rebuild" this is a viable rebuild technique. My point is I would not have any qualms about the car in question, at least no qualms about car arising from the engine "rebuild". I would of course were I interested in the car subject it to a thorough used car check out and this starts with a through test ride and test drive to make a high confidence determination of the engine's condition.

Haha yea everyone turns into a guidance counselor! Opinions are like a**holes, everyone has got one. I would've bought the C4S you were looking at pending a few things. I think it looks like a nice car. I wouldn't buy a high miler though, I just don't believe in that. I want to put the high miles on it, not purchase a car thy is potentially past its prime that somebody could be selling for hard to discover (even in a ppi) unsavory reasons. As for having the car in college? Go for it. Park off campus and walk, and plan (if all goes well) on around 2-3k per year in maintenance.

Hey, you asked for opinions and that's just what your getting. Did you really think all comments would be "Yes, buy it! Cant go wrong! Do it!" ??? BTW, thanks for your service.

Thanks, sorry my feathers got ruffled. I'm still looking at 996's, but I am considering 997.1's as well, and possibly entertaining the idea of the right SC if it comes along.