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YOUR RESEARCHCeramic Coated IMS bearing on 996 C4S
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bearing
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed · Original poster
And lubricated and cleaned some key points, it now feels very
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
An IMS tube filled with nasty oil is a set up for imminent total failure..
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We haven't seen any IMS tubes filled with oil on engines that we have pulled bearings from for inspection during R&D.
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EDIT: title should read:
" LN IMS Hybrid Ceramic, Silicon Nitride Bearing on 996 C4S "
So after a lot of reading in the last few years, I decided
to order and install the IMS ceramic coated bearing
on my 2002 996 C4S.
Car has 105 000 Km, and I think it will be an
excellent upgrade. My indie just ordered the kit,
including the install tool from LNE.
I am also very curious as to how much play, and if the grease in the sealed
bearing case is still in there.
Clutch has about 60 K, but most likely I will replace it- extra 400 or so?
ivangene, these are all really good points.
The one I was not familiar with was Case bolts- I 've never heard of
case leaks due to loose bolts.
Chain tensioners have been on my mind, because I know of some cases
that they broke, and caused problems.
Do you mean the actual IMS? If yes, I was only planning to change the bearing.
I don't quite know what you mean by "fully ceramic L&N unit",
since all I know that is ceramic coated, are the bearings.
You can see the bearing here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvLRMGs-Ti8
Kit was ordered Friday, with no rush, so it will take several days
to get here.
As for the Link, it is here:
http://www.lnengineering.com/ims.html
Excellent and well detailed info.
Who's putting it in for you? Just curious. I had mine done by
www.engineeredautomotive.com
up in Concord, but I imagine you're close to Mantis, too.
Mine has been in for 16 months now, doing cruel duty as a commuter car. I felt pretty good about putting it in, especially after they discovered that the original seal had failed.
Zookie, I will post pics.
There has been a slight delay, because
the front wheel bearing (driver's side) had to be replaced today.
It was making noise, and initially I thought I needed new tires. Then the noise became louder,
and then clearly, it was the bearing.
IMS bearing from LNE will now be installed this Thursday.
BruceP, I priced it around, and Eurospek, on Kipling and Queensway
had the best price, eventhough I do not have an exact quote.
I'll let you know Thursday.
Jake, thanks for clearing that up.
I left a phone message on what I thought was your number- Charles Navarro returned
my call yesterday
I wanted your and his opinion on what other parts to replace at 105,000 Km, since I was doing the
IMS bearing upgrade. He suggested to replace the water pump.
My mechanic David Santos (Excellent mechanic) said it was on the opposite side of the engine,
and the OEM pump alone costs another 450.00 (including new gasket).
So, I decided to wait for now, since there should be some warning signs if the water pump goes,
like the engine beginning to run hotter, and that should give me some time to take it to the shop.
Repair is schedule for Thursday at 8:30 AM, which is today, some 7 hours from now.
If you have any tips or suggestions please post.
Either way, I should get the right phone number from you sometime.
EDIT: How do I change the title thread to:
" IMS Hybrid Ceramic, Silicon Nitride Bearing on 996 C4S "
Charles has been at my shop for the last week working on development and assisting me instruct an M96 engine rebuild school:-) He probably called you from one of my extensions and you hit "return" looking for him..
The water pump is a no brainer.. mileage doesn't kill them- time in service does.
What about a water pump warning sign being a cracked cylinder head??? When impeller blades break they block capillaries in the heads, create hot spots and that just cost a customer 11,765.00 to repair... and the engine never had high coolant temps!
Water pumps took out no less than 50 engines this summer, it is quickly becoming the biggest preventive failure to take out engines with multi-thousands of dollars required to repair them..
I have two builds on my floor right now that are here due to cracked heads stemming from failed water pumps and broken impeller blades... to the tune of 18K and 21K respectively... Don't play with it.
Mileage isn't the killer of the water pump.. The killer is the time in service and exposure of the plastic impeller to the coolant.
I have seen failed water pumps on engines with 18K, they never got loud or had a bearing issue.. They simply shed a piece of impeller blade and cost about 8K to repair when the head cracked and created an intermix issue. With even the newest M96 now being 5 years old, EVERY ONE of them should be replaced.. If an impeller blade is missing when the pump is pulled it must be found, else it'll circulate around in the coolant until is finds a capillary to block.
Nope. They are the same people that also maintain the IMS bearing cannot be removed.
The recommended checklist for a 30,60 and 90K service is laughable..
They also are the people who tell you to replace the engine when a head cracks because of a broken impeller blade...
I am very surprised and shocked at the same time. Since this is news to me, is there a list somewhere that has all the items in the 996 that need to be replaced and the intervals/cost in order to avoid a $10,000-$20,000 bill (that I can't afford to pay). So far I know the IMS and the water pump. What else?
IMS bearing installation went without a glitch!!
Also, the clutch feels way lighter- David just made it perfect.
I'll post pictures later on.
Price: 1700 before taxes
Peace of mind: priceless
In two weeks I'll change the water pump.
I'm just glad I'm not posting about a $20,000 engine rebuild due to IMS bearing failure.
Thank you Jake Rabi and Charles Navarro.
Jake, can you comment on the size of these capillaries that are be coming blocked with impeller plastic? How big of a piece of impeller is a concern and how small is small enough not to worry about?
Thanks,
Shawn
The capillaries vary in size depending upon the year of the engine and displacement.. They also vary from casting to casting, some are less than 4mm in diameter in the center of the cylinder head on pre-02 996 engines.
Here are a couple of cracks. I have some other pics of the area machined away but not on this machine.
BTW- Glad the IMSR went well for you!
A couple of observations:
1. As Jake Rabi described previously, the IMS shaft was full
of very old and very stinky oil, with no lubrication properties left- probably 8 years old.
2. Original IMS bearing already had a significant play.
I'm opening it and taking a closer look later on.
If the IMS tube was filled with nasty oil, the bearing seals were compromised and all the permanent lubricant was washed away..
An IMS tube filled with nasty oil is a set up for imminent total failure.. Your bearing was probably at an advanced stage 2 failure, maybe stage 3 depending upon the wear on the *****.
$1700.00 includes oil change, because the oil must be drained
To change the IMS bearing. Clutch was like new, so it did not
need replacing.
However, after he worked on the clutch system
And lubricated and cleaned some key points, it now feels very
light! It feels exactly like when I first replaced it, around 60,000 Km ago.
Wheel bearing was $370.00 before taxes.
EDIT: the prices I'm posting include parts and labor.
As far asI know, David at Eurospek has the best prices, so far.
I drove this baby yesterday all evening, and late into to the night.
Psychologically, it is a huge relief. Car feels great!
Water pump is next week- and I'm done for now, in terms
of preventive maintenaince.
1 David is quite **** about shop cleanliness, and floor is washed with special detergent.
2 LNE IMS bearing in
3 Clutch was like new with 60,000 Km, so no need to replace it. However, I can't
believe how much lighter it felt, after David cleaned it and lubricated it.
Jake, no, $1700.00 includes parts and labor, no tax, as mention on post #36.
What do you think?
BTW, it would be great if you could answer my last question regarding
oil filling the IMS shaft again, and the new LNE bearing, as mentioned on post #32.
Yes, David works on all kinds of Porsches, from 356s to GT2s,
GT3s, TTs, Carrera, etc.
He is competent, and very precise, clean and careful with his work.
He is also honest, and that is specially important and hard to find.
I think I wouldn't touch the work for 1700.00 parts and labor, at least at our level doing the pre and post evaluations and dyno evaluation to boot..
That price is unbelievably good based on the work related and the risk associated and liability possibilities after the fact.
Ok so Jake $2000-2500 sounds like a good price for IMS upgrade, that was the quote from my indy. Does not include clutch or any other part which may need to be replaced.
Ewwe That price kinda sucks.
Fairwinds Porsche in Bear,De (a bit of a ride for you) had an $85 per hour labor rate....
10 hours.... $850 for labor.... no sales tax....
Now they may charge more then 10 hours for the job, that I don't know.
You can judge for yourself.. I finally made a page on my site that breaks down what we do and what we charge for it, which is pretty much the gold standard by which all others are being measured. You'll see that without the extra things we do and without the clutch that the 2500.00 price tag is pretty much fair. Its all broken down explicitly here. I still have to add the pics, but all the information is there. We do charge more, but we also do more, so the comparisons to others may be more "apples to oranges" than they appear. I do what I feel is required for a complete procedure, to ensure the engine is 100% before it leaves my care and control. That includes at least a 100 mile test drive.
http://www.flat6innovations.com/serv...shaft-retrofit
Jake, thanks for the input.
Im still hoping you address my last two questions
regarding the IMS filling with oil again, and how your
bearing will hold.
The LN bearing is an open bearing.. If the tube fills with oil, that oil will drain as soon as the engine is shut off. We haven't seen any IMS tubes filled with oil on engines that we have pulled bearings from for inspection during R&D.
I didn't see your second question.. If it was how long will the new bearing last, well since none have failed its hard to forecast.I'd like to say forever, but its mechanical.
Remember: 80% of machines and components will fail due to outside forces before they ever reach their fatigue life..
That seems to be the market price around here now. When I did mine, I paid over two grand, but mine was the first dual row anybody had done here. Now, I think the same outfit is charging about what you paid your guy.
All due respect to you, Jake, I think you have to give some benefit of the doubt to the mechanic and the customer on how 'correctly' the job was done. In my case, there wasn't a lot of "extra" work, but that's because my car is mechanically extremely well maintained by the same guys, and test driven with every service.
Sometimes, even this guy drives it.
http://www.grand-am.com/drivers/driv...ies=r&did=1799
; )
OK, today water pump was replaced.
David did the work in around 3 hours labour at $90.00/hr.
Note: the water pump had a slight play in the bearing (105,000 Km), so I am
glad it was done.
The OEM impellers are made of plastic, and I understand
clearly how thay can break off, specially if the pulley bearing has a play,
causing the impellers to rub on the housing sides, or simply break from the extra vibrations.
Preventive maintenance on this 2002 is done (for now).
The car drives amazingly well, and the peace of mind is fantastic,
even if only psychological.
Today I was driving freely and without any worries on 401, 427, QEW and Gardiner,
red lining quite often without any concerns.
I used to think that to feel this confident, that I would need to buy a Turbo. Not anymore.
Jake Rabie and Charles Navarro, thanks for your work and dedication,
and for not hesitating in being helpful, and answering my questions.
Eurospek is on Kippling just south of Queensway, behind
World Fine Cars dealer. They are independent from World Fine Cars.
For all the Winter GTG guys, Eurospek is less than 1Km
South from the meeting place Artesanos.
David's number is [phone removed] - very easy to remember.
EDIT: Eurospek
520 Kipling Avenue
Etobicoke On M8Z 5E3
Canada
