Joe Gibbs DT40?

Anyone other than Gator using JG DT40? Opinions good or bad? I figure if its good enough for JR and Gator its good enough for me. Only $10.95 per quart at Summit. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/jgr-02406 Mine should be here in a few days. Oh and Halik, the Castrol Edge Syn 5-40W oil in my C4S is over 3 months old with a few hundred miles (hard miles). I will be analyzing it and filter.

i'm in honolulu- those of us in the islands always look at shipping cost as it's nuts- Amazon has lots of free shipping here- got DT40 on amazon - case of 12 for $132. free shipping- delivered yesterday via 2nd day UPS- - some online want $70-80 shipping for case- Previously got Motul 8100 excess - four 5 ltr jugs for $120 -also free shipping- next oil change on 02 996 will be with DT 40- keeping motul for wifes 07 boxster S which is still under xtended warranty

An oil thread...I actually like these... Former owner was running 15W-50 Mobil 1 (as far as my records show). As part of my general sorting, I ran 0W-40 Mobil 1 for my first changes (decent specs, Porsche approved, but HT/HS of 3.8 and an okay VI). Lot of clatter at startup (in my opinion, cold start on cold days), very thin in summer Louisiana stop-and-go (low pressure in my opinion, 1.1-1.2 bar at idle w/o A/C on). Began to mix 0W-40 and 15W-50 in 50/50 mix (shooting for 7.5W-45 and a HT/HS of ~4.2 but using same additive pack). Higher pressures (1.8-1.9 bar w/o A/C on), less clatter, better VI in blend. Then I completely made the switch to Redline 5W-40. Insane HT/HS (4.6), polar molecule base, but good viscosities for start and at temp, and an even better VI. No clatter (even cold start on a cold day), and zinc/molybdenum levels are high. 8.96/qt at Thunder Racing (local domestic performance shop), although they do have an online site. Without being able to find the specifications of DT40 (HT/HS, zinc, molybdenum, TBN numbers, etc), I'd rather not use it in my vehicle, all recommendations aside.

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like at least 1200 PPM high?

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None of the following are from my vehicle: Here 's a test after ~10k miles. Another @ ~1200 miles. Another @ 4000 miles. And another sample. They've changed their molybdenum levels a few times (went away for awhile, but never nil), but by recent statements (I think their direct contact goes by Dave) indicates the molybdenum is back. Give them a call; I've been told they're quite pleasant.

It has my name right on the label.. Its used in all of our engines and we use nothing else. I never wanted it released to the public, but it was in March of 2012, before that we developed and hoarded it (not advertised) for our engines. Lake Speed from JGR, Charles Navarro of LN and I have developed this oil from scratch ONLY based upon the M96 engine as our test subject. I have never seen a UOA from the DT40 with less than 1250PPM, I have hundreds of UOAs from our engines using this oil in my ledger.

Jake, I only bought JG DT40 because of YOUR recommendation. I sifted through all the other oil nonsense and read what YOU had to say about the subject. Thank you for your research on these cars.

Thanks. I make so few recommendations that the ones I do make are for certain. I only agreed to put that label on the bottle because without JGR we'd not have our own oil and would be like all the other mortals out there that have to take what they can get with all its compromises.

Jake, I'm not averse to trying the stuff, but any way I can get a product data sheet on it or a VOA report? My searching has turned up nothing.

All the samples I have are confidential from Lubrizol as they produce the oil and all the additives. I will email Lake Speed to see if he minds me posting them. The samples do not look the same as anything you'll see anywhere else as these are used to develop oils, so the data is much different. I don't use any other service for samples.

May I ask an unrelated yet related question? Sorry to thread jack KK. We all know Porsche recommends Mobil. Is that really just an endorsement deal when it comes down to it? Research aside, is Mobil paying Porsche AG for the recommendation? The gas cap on my Ford is stamped with a BP logo and says that Ford recommends BP. Hell if I ever put BP in the tank.

Gator, I bet you are exactly right, hence the huge Mobil1 advertisement sticker under our hoods. Jake said JG DT40 is the ONLY oil he uses in his engines and thats good enough for me. At @$10 a quart, its a steal. Now if he can just change the mind set about the absurd 10K mile / 1 year change interval that seems to prevail from the sheep. I remember when auto companies started espousing these longer and longer change intervals. Alway seemed odd to me so I ignore tham and stick to the 3K miles / 3 or 4 month schedule. We cant give people like Jake enough credit or thanks for the work he does and the FREE knowledge he passes on. Ashame you just cant reach some people.

I have spent 3K on a single 55 gallon drum of the DT40 before it was sold to the public. I never complained about the price even then. More goes into an oil recommendation than it just "working".

I was thankful that my car took home some of that Georgia gold. It may be psychological, but I swear my engine runs smoother and quieter.

Come on guys. There's some serious kool aid drinking going on here. I agree with mmahon. Show me some stats and some rationale and you have another customer.

Doesn't matter to me.. I only sell it to my engine purchasers. These are the reasons why I never wanted it to go to market.

Sorry Steve but maybe you dont realize who your talking about. Please take the time to read ALL the articles about JR and his work, watch his videos, then read some more. A tremendous amount of FREE knowledge about YOUR car. All of which he developed by hands on real research not some round table pansy discussion bench racer group. I think I will use what he knows and take care of my M96 engine to the best of my abilities. I wish I could attend one of his seminars but I cant afford it. Jake, you have the patience of a saint with some of the stupid questions and ungrateful comments. Please dont hold them against the rest of us.

Krazy, I've actually read just about every word on Jake's website and have emailed him several questions which he was nice enough to answer personally within a day of my asking. As you know I'm brand new to Porsche ownership and I am thirsty for knowledge. I am here to learn. Saying "Because Jake said so" does nothing for my learning.

Sorry Steve, I may have misunderstood your post.

DT40 sounds good. I wonder if Jake thinks it's worth putting it in an engine with some miles on it, that shows no issues, or if because it is superior if the DT40 can stay in a car for 2 years if it has under 5k miles on it. For me, the 3k oil change mileage number has been moot, as due to my work/life schedule, I never put on 3k a year on my 996, anyway, and change it once a year. Last 2 changes were Castrol 5-40 Syntec, before that was Mobil 1 0-40, with 2 of the qts 15-50. I installed the IMSG, pulled the pan, was spotless in side a year ago, & always ran the LNE magnetic drain plug and spin on adapter with Mobil 1 filter since I got the car at 38k miles in '08 (now at 49k). I never look at what I call "familiar" cost, just total cost. Or I never would have a few months ago, pre-emptively replaced a perfectly working water pump, AOS, T-stat, coolant cap, or hose. Change a $300 water pump before it needs it is a waste? No, spend $300 to preserve the cooling system, engine and TCO (Total Cost of Ownership). I look at it as an engineer, and engineers believe in preventative maintenance. So if DT40 is $11 a qt and we need 10 qts its $110 vs $70 for normal oil (though I did just buy 12 qts of the Castrol 5-40 Syntec for only $40) so if I am preserving the engine for a difference of less than a tank of gas, it's not really a discussion, I'd do it. But engineers also don't just do things "because", there has to be some rationale. So if I can get 2 years and 5k miles from DT40 vs 1 year and under 3k miles on Castrol, it is a real no brainer from every aspect. Just saying and asking...thanks for your support, Jake.

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None of us are perfect, pencils are equipped with erasers for a reason. All of us put our pants on one leg at a time, I am just extremely good at what I do because I love it so much and know nothing else. Its a life, not a job. I emailed Lake Speed to see what data I can share and he is going to send me a non-confidential UPOA of DT 40 tomorrow. Until then here are the HTHS results between DT 40 and 10/40 M1. Aside from elemental analysis this High Temperature High Shear test is how we rate an oil's ability to remain effective under the conditions that the M96 sees daily as the engines have inherently high oil temperatures, almost always greater than that of the standard 212*F API standard for viscosity measurement. There is much more to "grading" an oil than most people would ever know and you won't read it online. The parrots don't understand it.

Seriously, would it make sense to risk a 20K engine by using a 2 year oil change interval? You cant possibly think this is a good idea? 2 oil changes per year $100 or less each VS. 1 destroyed M96 engine $20,000 Simple math to me.

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Thank you. I'm looking forward to seeing the UOA results; this should cover my questions about the additive pack and TBN numbers. Considering it is a UOA though, are the results based on a sample drawn from the M96? Care to share, or point me in a direction (I'm not book averse either )?

Jake, thanks for the information on the oil. Many of us come from science and engineering backgrounds, so like you, we like to have data to base our decisions on. Would you mind clarifying what the test duration was (EOT)? -Shawn

Makes ZERO sense. Of course, until someone loses a camshaft lobe, lifter or timing chain they won't realize that. I require 5K/ 6 month intervals for street cars and oil changed after every event for track cars. Based on my data the oil is compromised after these periods as it is laden with fuel (solvent) and other contaminants that must be purged. This will partially provide an overview of the oil. These do not tell the entire story and should never be the only resource material used to "grade" the effectiveness of an oil. Through the development of this oil we used engine teardowns and measurements to help us understand how things react within the engine. This started as a collaborative effort between my company and LN Engineering in 2002 and has been an exhaustive effort that continues every day with no end in sight. As newer oils are impacted by the changes that must be in place for CAFE in 2016, most all oils have been impacted and this will only increase until 2016. Last time I checked the M96 was the only engine that populated our facility, with a few 9a1 DFI engines. The DT40 was explicitly developed using the M96/M97 engine family. We were originally going to call it "M9" until there were copyright issues. It also works well for BMW engines and some Mercedes, so it was just called European oil and DT40 through Gibbs. No resource for this one.. You'd have to be part of developing an oil from the anti-wear and detergency packages all the way to a finished product to understand it. I had no clue that such small changes could make such huge differences and the majority of those won't ever be found in a "report" that the armchair experts can sit back and decipher. If you really want to learn attend one of Lake Speed's lubrication seminars, he hosts them around the USA and abroad often and its free to attend. It is NOT an infomercial for Gibbs because it can't be. Lake is one of 290 Certified Lubrication Specialists and he must offer his knowledge to people like you guys to maintain his standings with the API. Because of that there is no sense of bias in his presentations. We are now working with Gibbs on fuel stabilization products with cause and effect on engine tuning, fuel system components and related items. This is to support an effort to lessen the harmful effects of ethanol enriched fuels on modern and vintage vehicles alike. Maybe, which test are you referring to? Please don't inflict paralysis from analysis on this topic.

Sometimes the "engineer" and "analyst" types tend to overcomplicate an issue rather than just accept the fact that common sense is usually the right path. Unfortunately I have seen this many times in my career where "round table theorists" come up with what they think are brilliant hypotheses without ever considering how these edicts can be implemented by the persons they are actually directed to or burdened upon. In summary, they tend to overthink an issue while accomplishing nothing until the "hands on guy" calls and says "never mind, its fixed". You seem like the latter to me. I find it very funny that these guys "dont have time to change their own oil" but have lots of time to rehash research already done by you. I immediately got what you said. Better adhesion and less shear under extreme conditions. For me, case closed. Im switching to JG DT40 and adhering to my what some call frequent change intervals. Thanks again for your patience.

I would buy a case of JG BR break in oil to use as a 100 mile flush before chaining oil. This lessens cross pollination from one vastly different base oil to another and it does make a huge difference on the first two oil services after switching to DT40. I know this. Here I assemble engines with JGR assembly lube and break them in on JGR BR break in oil, then use DT40 from that point forward. I ensure that no deviation is made at all, for any reason and it works phenomenally well. For engines that see track service we then apply JGR XP-9 (which we developed from just an experimental base oil of "Lubrizol "980" into the XP9, much like DT40. DT40 is NOT designed to be utilized for on-track activities, it is a street oil just like any other and it must maintain its ability to hold up for 5K mile service intervals. All of my engines that see even one day of track service utilize XP-9 and that product is only good for 750 miles before the additive packages are depleted. So, in other words don't track your car on DT-40. It takes more than patience. I am too damn intense for this.

The last two posts illustrate perfectly the reason why the "armchair experts" ask for more information before making a change due to a source on the internet, however well respected and knowledgable that source appears to be. I am NOT slagging Jake, but I AM saying that the questions make perfect sense to ask. Lots of us here track their cars. KrazyK, I know you don't but if you did and if you had just run out and bought the oil based on Jake's previous posts in this thread (as you apparently did), Jake's last post would have had you sitting there with a case of oil that would now be the wrong thing to use for your engine. The point is that just because someone recommends something you cannot just take it at face value unless you examine ALL of the parameters that apply to the context. Jake may run DT40 in all the engines that he builds....UNLESS that engine is for track duty - then he appears to recommend something else.

Note that I said that without being asked. Thats the difference that you won't generally find. We know what does work and more importantly we know what doesn't work and why. If you buy the oil from me, or from LN you will be told the fact about track service. If you buy it from a generic source you will not, which means getting what you pay for has a different definition than most believe. Will DT40 work on the track? It has for us. Was DT40 designed for track service at all, absolutely not. Our goals for this flavor of oil did not include track duty at all. For the track, XP9 is exceptional and is a true RACE oil in every way, able to maintain VI @ temperatures north of 280*F sustained. When your street car goes to the track, it becomes a race car and it requires a race oil. Some may argue, few hold the data.

I am actually planning on making this change this winter, I will be using the break-in oil, JG advised me just to warm up the engine with it and drive around the block a couple of times and than put in the DT-40.

Walter, thanks for saving me some typing. Jake, I was referring to the EOT listed above in the chart. For each characteristic you list an initial value and a final value at the end of test. I was just asking how long the test period was to better understand when these changes were taking place. Does the viscosity drop that much after 1 hour of operation, 1000 hours of operation, etc? Thanks! Krazy, believe it or not, some people like to understand topics before they comment on them. I know it's not common on most forums these days. People like to just throw their opinions out without any basis or support. I know it's much easier to listen to an expert and then repeat what they said, but that's not how actual engineering works. How do you think experts become experts? Do you think Jake just took someone's word for what works, or did he work his way through the problem either by asking questions, reading about the subject, or by doing the hands on work to answer the questions that didn't have easy answers?

Great. With that said I have a busy next couple of days. I am done here for now.

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Exactly. THAT is the reason for asking the questions. Jake, you mentioned the track aspect without being asked. It is conceivable that there are OTHER aspects to the oil that you have not yet shared without being asked (which would be normal and perfectly understandable). I assume that when you repair or service someone's car they are asked how they use their car. The track junkie's car may get different fluids compared to the guy that enjoys a spirited drive every now and then compared to the guy who only drives it to church on Sundays when it's over 70 degrees out and never exceeds the speed limit etc. DT40 was apparently developed with the M96 in mind. That does not necessarily mean that for EVERY M96 engine it is the BEST option out there in EVERY situation. Thus the quest for data etc. I do share your apparent opinion that not everyone out here in internet land has the ability to make the best decision based on a few graphs/chart/statements and that many just regurgitate whatever snippet of information they retained from the last oil thread without any context or deeper knowledge. The average person is probably fine with going with the manufacturer recommended fluids, changing them at appropriate intervals and will most likely not see a catastrophic event due to that decision. You've stated yourself that there are several potential failure modes with this engine, oil is one of them, the bearing possibly another. The majority of engines, however, don't have any issues. There are thousands of these engines out there with drivers that aren't on this forum or have never even heard of this forum. Not every one of their engines is going to expire. There is very likely a greater percentage of people who have HAD issues on THIS forum than in the general owner population. If you have a problem, often you look to the internet and forums such as this one to help solve it. if you never have an issue, often you have no reason to look for a forum.

X2 I am following his advice as well. This thread is full of FREE info that may have prevented many failures for M96 owners and the cost isnt much more than the Mobil 1 0-40W crap oil many are addicted to.

Shawn, I think I posted a similar comment about his research. Have nothing but respect and gratefulness for the mans work and contribution. My comments were directed at the ones who refuse to believe him. Walter, great info from you as well. I read all the opinions I can then try to make an informed decision.

Skepticisms aside, the common sense in me says engines have survived this long using mainstream oils and the mainstream oil companies have a lot more research resources(as well as bean counters) to provide a suitable compromise. There's been boutique oil companies such as Redline and Amsoil for those that don't want to compromise. Many 996 owners have done just fine this far with various oils from both mainstream and boutique companies. There's been many race teams that have used off the shelf oils in racing many times. Is the m96/m97 THAT fragile and special than other motors, even comparing other boxer motors like Subaru's to really obsess and worry over a certain oil? I understand the reasons why Jake wants to use the oil in his motors however, does it make sense to use something like this in used cars with some mileage on them? Is there going to be any difference long term? What quantitative value is out there for using this oil. If you took 2 brand new daily driver cars over the course of a few years with 2 different oils and ran it the same mileage with the same driving styles, environment, OCI's and such and at the end, did a complete engine breakdown, it would be interesting to see how much of a difference in wear and reliability there really was. That to me is a more quantifiable test. Are we really going to be driving our cars 1 million miles or keep it forever? 996's for me isn't like owning a Bugatti Veyron or anything like that so personally for me, I can't see getting into the nitty gritty of something like bickering over oil to this degree. I wonder if people make a big deal on the health forums about Brita, Pur, Zero Water, etc.. It's like the people that want the best n2 rated Michelins that don't track it and rarely drive or know how to drive even remotely close to or above 7/10's and blast their stereo and have mega dollar coilover systems...Sorry if I offended anyone. Jake, Can you tell me if the DT40 oil usage is a requirement on your engines in maintaining or keeping a valid warranty? Just curious is all.

Since money is no object, you wont mind spending the money for JG oil and shorter change intervals? Just kidding. For me, owning the 996 is better than owning the Bug!

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That's a pretty bold statement. I don't think I have seen too many (any) threads that absolutely lay the verifiable blame of failure on correct usage of that oil over any other.

Walter you took that out of context.

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Here is your full post, not sure how I took it out of context. It still states that the Mobil 1 0-4W is crap oil.

I meant not just the one post. It was relevant to the entire thread but still just an opinion. Read JR's many above it.

Here's my first UOA of the DT40. Was Motul 8100 since 49k and 300V before that.

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Thanks for posting this Jon.

+1, thank you!

I kinda find it ironic that Joe Gibbs oil, a division of Joe Gibbs Racing of Nascar is developing oil for European cars. Once I see actual professional european race teams use it quite regularly, I'll just think of this as another Royal Purple. I'm not saying it isn't a great oil but just not enough to getting me to switch. VAC Motorsports that helped develop it had this to say: It would be interesting to see what the long term ramifications are on the cats and O2 sensors, especially on our cars where it's even closer to the exhaust manifolds.

Now we are talking. Great learning opportunity. Too bad Jake is gone for several days and won't ever see this post again. Krazy, WTF with the new avatar? That is offensive to my 996 eyes.

Jake built my engine, so that's the oil I use. Simple!

Jake, perhaps you could give a comparison on the DT40 vs. Motul 8100 X-Cess and why select one over the other? On my new/used 03-996 I had no idea what oil was used before but just did an oil change with the Motul per my local inde recommendation. I am by no means an expert on oil and don't understand the differences and what they mean.

Which weight JG BR break in oil?

Jon, Thank you for posting your Blackstone report. It will be telling to see what your numbers look like on the next oil change. Have your tracked your car or did any aggressive driving other than your previous norm? If you read between the lines, you do have wear. Changing to a "new" oil requires one to pay more attention to the next oil changes. I do like the numbers from the Motul. Disclaimer, I have ZERO written history on the NA 996 and NA997 engines. However, I have extensive "oil" knowledge with Blackstone reports from numberous customers and non customers. It would be interesting to run a "oil" trial against Mobil Delvac 5W40 or Mobil Turbo Diesel 5W40 and/or Shell Rotella T6.. These are the oils that I recommend to my turbo customers. Just for reference>> the turbocharged engines are shedding more metal vs what I have seen in Jon's test. I'd recommend that someone start a Blackstone or XYZ oil testing registry. This way the community as a whole can monitor each oil and see the wear trends.. I have no dog in this "fight" Oil debates are very difficult. Long term testing usually will produce trends that either support the oil or they don't..

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I believe it's straight 30W

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For anlaysis purpoes do you plan on switching back to Motul as per the lab's suggestion?

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I see 5w30 or 15w50

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Sorry, it is 5W-30. Part# BR-30

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I'd be interested to see this as well. Personally, I'm a Rotella T6 guy and I use it in all my cars. If the Rotella can handle the heat and abuse from the Powerstroke engine in my F250 running 35 pounds of turbo boost and 4000psi of oil pressure in the fuel injectors (yes, four thousand PSI), then I'm not too worried about its ability to handle the job of keeping the 996 lubed.

Capt., diesel is a lubricant. Gasoline is a solvent. Thats why you see 1,000,000+ mile diesels and not P-cars. Diesel engine not at all relevant. JR has done the research and testing for you. Why cloud the issue or reinvent the wheel? Do your IMSB, RMS, etc., flush with JG BR oil. Refill with JG DT40. Your done. Say thank you to JR and move on. If you track your 996, thats a whole other issue.

I'll strick with Mobil thanks, between them and Porsche I think they have the resources to do all the relevant tests. if it works on German Autobahns where you can sit at 160+mph for mile after mile, it will work on 70mph freeways and the odd trackday.

posted by the guy that fragged his M96 engine. response by legit expert This is from the lengthy metal fragemts in oil thread that was caused by inadequate lubrication. You might want to read this whole thread to get the context.

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Ive read that diesel spec oils contain lots of detergent, which can actually accelerate wear in a high strung,high revving motor like ours. Dont know if that applies to T6, since it is also specced for SN.

KrazyK, you a misinformed about the double ester diesel engine oils. These are top tier oils. They are API rated to run in gas engines. The detergent packages do NOT hurt our engines!

Kevin, I didnt post that. I was pointing out the contrast between diesel engine VS. gasoline engine and the absurdity to compare the two. I ran Rotella in all the diesels I owned and my brother does as well. I think the JG DT40 is more M96 specific than Rotella though I dont know of any formal test that backs that up other than what JR was willing to post. Mobil1 0-40W apparently is not as suitable as well.

Also, I wouldn't consider 7k rpm a high-revving engine. Middle of the road at best.

LOL, compared to what? A 6.7L Cummins or a 500CC two stroke?

Guys the standard that we should be following is a REVERSE in the metal wear trend. If you have a oil that is lowing metal wear. Stick with it. There are alot of folks runing Rotella in there GT2, GT3's and have GREAT Blackstone reports.. I wouldn't toss Jon's report down the drain until he gets another test in the books. Shouldn't see metal wear increases. FYI I strongly recommend Mobil 1 VTwin 20W50 for ALL aircooled engines..

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+1

i get my mobil1 0w-40 for free (and any oil for that matter,) and i'm going to start with jake's engine flush and then the DT40 ......i am curious about the mobile 1 5w-40 though...i think it's for mercedes

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Please don't draw conclusions based on supposition and turn this into a Mobil 1 witch hunt. Most oil threads are just that, supposition, because it is near impossible to determine if it is the oil or something else that caused the issue, unless there is a full history of oil tests supporting it. Show me a few oil tests in the same car, with Mobil 1 indicating abnormal wear, then a DT40 oil change, no other changes, and all the wear stops, and then it will be more convincing. Thousands & thousands of M96 are running Mobil1 0-40, and the streets aren't littered with their carcasses. As mentioned before, Jake sees all the problems, and statistically, he never would after he does his rebuilds, as he address many other issues. We're not talking Sears 30 weight Dino oil here. There is absolutely NO indication that Mobil 1 fragged the OPs engine. Just a few metal particles in the right oil ports preventing flow, would have caused the same thing, with ANY oil. I'll bet we can find many owners with Blackstone reports on Mobil 1 that show no abnormal wear. Had the OP removed the oil pan and checked for any debris when he got he car? He didn't, so anything is inconclusive. I could just as easily lay the blame on the Porsche bypass oil filter system. After all, they all have that, and JR changes to the spin on adapter and full filtration, and the engines don't detonate. (I happen to fully agree with that design point though) I agree that DT40 is more likely a better oil for the M96 than Mobil 1, as are many others, I'm sure, because of the low zinc content, in the latter formulations, and that is one of the reasons I switched. If I change my oil every 3k miles with 5w-40 Syntec, are you telling me you can prove that I will get less wear and never have an oil related engine problem if I switch & do the same thing with DT40? Do you have oil tests of the previous changes on your car, and them will you have them or the DT40 when you make the switch? Anyone? Since all M96 come with Mobil 1 and that is what the vast majority of oil changes are made with, OF COURSE, all the failures will have engines with Mobil 1 in them. So is D-chunking cause by Mobil 1? IMS failure by Mobil 1...Cause and effect must be proven or strongly linked, not just be coincidence or scapegoating. My $0.02.

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wow, are you and JR dating? I've never seen anyone become the nutswinger you have so quickly. Yes, JR is great for the community and has tons of knowledge on the m96. But to act like no one else could have a valid opinion is absurd.

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You have the gall to doubt MrK Knutswinger?? On an OIL thread? Quad......you are not alone. I have read the 5+ pages of this lunacy and I want my time back.

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Some variations of Mobil 1 5w-40 are Mercedes approved but there are a few variations that are Porsche approved. Look for "A40" on the bottle which indicates the oil is specifically Porsche approved.

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This is about the most ridiculous thing I've come across in a while in an oil thread. So you use a non approved oil to "flush" the engine of an approved oil. This oil is the wrong viscosity. Probably mineral oil based but I've not bothered to look up its MSDS. ('course the turbo diesel oil is great crowd doesn't let 10% or 20% mineral oil content in some of these oils scare them...) Then with some of this unapproved oil still in the engine you then fill it with another unapproved oil. If you are going to use an unapproved oil if the engine so desperately needs this magic DT-40 oil why not flush the engine with this oil to begin with? Thus when you refill the engine after draining the flushing oil the concentration of this DT-40 oil is higher than it would be using an intermediate flushing oil. What in God's name is the next step in this oil madness? Changing the oil during a solar eclipse? Using an ancient Maya calendar? Animal sacrifices at oil change time?

This thread is getting better and better

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Can anyone recommend a good windshield washing fluid that won't blow up my car?

I think hes doing exactly what JR recommended. So what exactly is ridiculous? I think I understand why JR is hesitant to post some of his research methods and findings. It offends the sheep. How quickly they attack when you reveal their Mobil1's issues with the M96. Its a good thing JR didnt listen when the "experts" told him he couldnt replace the IMSB. My JG oil arrived yesterday. I plan to do the same when I replace IMSB, RMS, and clutch.

IBTL. BTW, There are sheeps on BOTH sides. "who you calling sheep, sheep?"

Hes giving very specific advice with precise instructions. What is so hard to understand about this? Mac, I do amit this is one of the funniest things I have seen posted.

I changed the oil with DT40, so we'll see what if anything changes after another 4k miles. One thing to note: halfway through the last interval, I had a leaking drain plug, so I drained the oil into a clean bucket and refilled from there. So it's certainly possible that there was a bit of contamination--we are talking about parts per million here. FWIW, no track time, but this is my daily driver, so plenty of stop start.

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i have 200,000 mi of experience using delvac1 5w40 in gas VW's and an equal amount with diesel vw's with long term UOA. it has been my goto oil, sadly getting Joe gibb oil up here in the wild north is a pipe dream i'm still trying to find a supplier who will bring it in and not charge $200 a case. the boxster currently has delvac1 5w40 in the sump but it got trapped by winter and so we pull a sample soon to see

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"Blind faith" is the phrase we use to call buying/using a product off un-posted R&D. Last I checked, "sheep" was a much more accurate description of said group. Quite frankly, I don't understand your un-checked enthusiasm for a product with exactly 1 professional recommendation (Raby). And going by the publicly available marketing descriptions, I find absolutely nothing that screams "better" to me than any other oil. Correction, considering the complete lack of technical data available, I don't even find a basis of comparison. Could be great stuff, but hell if I know. So given that, again, I'm a little confused about your holier-than-all stance toward this oil. Personally, I find the information vacuum surrounding the stuff a little odd; the quickest way to selling a product is openness in form and function with your target market. And when the people come knocking requesting information about it, I wouldn't tell them they wouldn't understand even if it was provided.. Note: I have the IMSB (on Raby's research), as well as the 160oF thermostat among other things (in agreement with many of Jake's positions), so this is certainly not calling into question his expertise. It's simply that for some of us, we'd rather not the "black box" model of car modifications and maintenance.

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Don't bring logic into this infomercial...

Let's not let this go ugly personal everyone. Jake is good, in fact, very good, and if you don't like his prices or methods, well...welcome to America. He has done more towards helping us understand and addressing the M96 foibles than anyone in the US I know of. The fact that Hartech also came to the same/similar conclusions lends a lot. My only point was not to let this become the scene from "The Jerk", when Steve Martin is getting shot at, while working at the gas station, and the bullets are hitting the oil cans. "What's wrong the cans? He HATES the cans! He's shooting the cans!" I laughed my butt off at that (one) scene. True classic. Jake says he's got tons of oil tests on the DT40, and it is better than Mobil 1 & the other oils he's tested. The viscosity is good, and it has plenty of zinc. I'm sure it is a great oil. Do you think he would base his entire business and personal reputation on it if it wasn't? But to summarily assume that all other oils are no good is crazy. IMHO, it's just as crazy as letting an $80k car go 10k+ miles between oil changes, because $120 is too much to spend on the most important preventative maintenance on an engine known to have the possibility of lubrication issues. When I changed out the oil cooler o-rings, I tossed the whole crankcase of Syntec 5w-40 oil with well less than 2k miles on it, just on the possibility that some coolant might have splashed in to the oil ports. 99% sure it was fine, and I took great lengths to prevent it, but I wasn't taking a chance for a lousy $100. (I really don't understand the cross contamination comment though. Macster hit the nail on the head. You can, in no way, get all the oil out of these engines in an oil change. When I dropped my pan, there was a ton of oil still dripping out after a week. At least 8oz. Why would you use break in oil on all ready well broken in engines. Do a short term flush with DT40, and then another right after, if you want the cleanest purest DT40 in the engine. Other synthetics have no problem with other oils, so why would DT40? Dilution is the solution, as we used to say. ) Bashing helps no one or further our learning.

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Jake, I bought a case of the DT40 from you back in Sept/Oct and again another case from Charles in November. I wish I was told about this "flushing" step. I never was. Regardless, I am very interested to see my future Blackstone reports from your oil vs. my previous selections of M1 5W50 and Red Line 5W40. Thanks.

ME too! Please post them, or PM me to let me see a copy! Thanks!

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OK, I will. Car is in hibernation till spring. I'll post UOA's this coming summer.

The oil flush is recommended when swapping between any two oils that are based from radically different base oils and anti-wear/ detergency package ratios. This is really only important if you wish to ensure your first UOA after swapping "systems" won't come out with weird results from cross pollination. We do this with any oil, not just DT40 or other Gibbs products. That said, classic oil thread, so Raby is out. If you want to only used an approved oil, thats fine. If you aren't closed minded, then follow me. Its just that simple and it doesn't matter to me one bit.

With all due respect, why would not following your recommendation indicate someone is close minded? To the contrary, people are asking for more information (indicating open minds).

This is the internet. People ask for more information as a basis for further argument. This has not changed since 1995 in my experience. Thats why I never participate in these threads, and why I should have never posted in this one. As more people use the product the UOAs gathered from independent sources will be posted. As people are more pleased with the performance of their engine, MPG and start up noise/ etc the product will gain a reputation and respect. Until then no one can catalyze the process, certainly not someone thats biased like me. Porsche owners are a discerning group and products take years to gain a reputation. I started building mine in 1992 in this industry and I understand the process better than anyone. All I care about are my engines and they use DT40, just like they use all the components that we have developed. When people come to me for a solution to their problem they WANT to use what we know works with our internal modifications and whats been developed alongside the rest of the engine. They don't have to be convinced. Until another engine developer in this game develops their own oil with a company like Gibbs and Lubrizol, we'll maintain our advantage. Lubrizol invented ZDDP. I am already working on a DT40 variant for the 9a1 based engine and its used in my 4.2L beast in Cayman X. Either people appreciate what we create and want to share it with us, or they don't. Last time I checked this country was still free and at least for now we don't have to buy oil from the government.

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Seriously? I would guess a very few of us would even know about your new oil product if it weren't for the threads posted over the last few days. I would guess that very few of us would know about the IMSG, IMSB, or the IMS Solution if it weren't for threads like these. I don't mind you marketing your products in the manner you do. As a matter of fact, I think it's brilliant. Just lose the attitude.

You should be thanking the man not second guessing and insulting him. Since he was the brain behind the IMSB retrofit when Porsche said it couldnt be done, all the Porsche sheep need to remove the new retrofit IMSB and bring your 996 to Porsche for a new shaft with bearing install. To those that keep re-hashing what he recommends: You have got to be out of your mind. He is posting FREE info that none of us have the ability or facility to research ourselves. My favorite quote from JR: Agree x1000

Well.....like ALL oil threads this one was a waste.....now for something completely different. Just substitute the O word for the S word. You Tube

For those looking for more information, I found some nice links on LN's website. Not sure how these didn't come up earlier. The LN page is http://www.lnengineering.com/joegibbsracingoils.html but this was the more interesting (I thought) http://www.lnengineering.com/joegibbsracingoils.html . Joe Gibbs presents a nice explanation of the differences between a race engine and a street engine requirements and how their products address these needs. I sort of assumed they were trading detergent capability for wear durability, but this really lays it out.

Shawn, no amount of information or expert recommendation is good enough for the die-hard Mobil1 groupies. Great information at the links you posted but I doubt their going to get the big picture because "Porsche said this, blah, blah, blah". Funny how they blindly listen to Porsche about oil recommendation when isnt this the same company that refuses to admit any problem with the IMSB? Strange.

Krazy, I'm actually in the Mobil 1, extended drain interval camp for daily driving. Historically this has worked well for me. That said, I'm also someone that is data driven. So I'm always trying to track down more data and understand its implications. I also try to understand the trade-offs that are made in any product development. Things are rarely black and white, and understanding what trade-offs were made and making a decision for my particular application is just how I operate. It's interesting to note the distinction that Joe Gibbs makes between race engines and daily driven engines. They make a point in this presentation that the detergents present in API oils are beneficial for daily driven engines that experience extended drain intervals and that require emissions equipment to continue functioning. Race engines don't have these requirements and so they formulate their oils to trade off the detergents and low zinc additives for improved wear formulations. They still seem to suggest API approved oils are the preferred oil for daily driven cars.

Which is why DT40 was developed specifically for street service and XP9 was developed specifically for track service. When your street car goes to the track, it becomes a race car, but people don't seem to grasp that. Then they wonder why they send connecting rods to mars...

Some of us do JR so keep the faith and please keep posting.

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Jake, can you mix DT40 and DT50 if you track the 996? <--- ?? (dt40 doesn't give the greatest oil pressure on track... adding some 50 weight would help no? or why not use the 300V 5-40 or 15-50 from Motul since it has a long life and it was designed for the track.

I ha e two engines here now that died from the classic viscosity loss on track in the past 3 weeks. Both were running 300V Motul. The DT series of oils are not race oils at all and should not be employed on the track. Not even once.

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So then Xp9 for my DE in April. How long can I keep it in there before I go back to regular good ole fashioned Mobil 1? Someone mentioned something about 750 miles.

Mobil1? Why not use JG DT40 after your DE? So your willing to follow only half of his recommendation?

Ya, I mean after all, Joe Gibbs was head coach of the Redskins, and I'm not a huge fan. Still waiting for some stats. Krazy, I tried to PM you but the message said you didn't allow PM's.

Actually, as far as oil threads go, this one wasn't THAT bad, nor did it degenerate much. JR presented a lot of new information. Thanks, Jake. IMHO, it's no ones job to convince anyone that anything is better than anything else. All you can do is present your experience and reasons, and let others come to their own conclusions. No reason to feel anything is falling on deaf ears or feel insulted. It is what it is. I mean LNE outright contradicts JR by saying that they both recommend DT-40 for track use. If LNE and JR don't agree, how can you expect the peanut gallery to. I will likely switch to DT-40 after I use up my stock of Syntec, ( and if I ever get on a track again will go XP9.) As an experieinced engineer, with a few tribology courses under my belt, plus the minor improvements (major protection/warning) recommended by JR, and my particular use of the car and mileage, I find it impossible to see any difference between the two oils in protection. I can easily hear and feel the difference that 2 oil changes later from M1 0w-40 to Syntec 5w-40 made, and I want to play it out and see how long this feeling lasts. I know between my Turbo Mini Cooper Clubman S, and the 996, after 3k miles, the M1 felt spent, so I switched, regardless that the Blackstone reports showed the oil still fine by a long margin. Switching to fresh M1 after 3k miles felt different enough, that I know "something" was not as it should. The difference going to Syntec was even greater thru 1700 miles, when I had to change it again due to possible contamination. Of course I also put in fresh coolant, new WP, AOS and low temp T-stat and new serp belt, so that may account for some of the feeling, but really it shouldn't.

Steve, I believe JR suggested changing oil for the track after every event. I've seen suggestions on other oils of ~500 miles ( http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/...AQs.aspx#FAQs2 ). Shawn

Mixing XP-9 with M1 would lead to a ton of cross pollination and compromise. Based on direct experience the only oil that mixes worse with XP-9 than M1 is Redline. I use JGR products to assemble the engine, break it in, run it on the street and then take it to the track. I do so with no deviation under any circumstance, primarily because I only utilize what we develop. That said, I think the best thing I can do is to try to set up a podcast interview with Lake Speed Jr. on this subject. I learned long ago that you can lead a horse to water, but can't make him drink. A mule is even more stubborn, closed minded and will sometimes die from dehydration before he will finally take a drink.

So for future reference, DT-40 for the street and XP-9 for the track? Change to XP-9 if going to track and then change back to DT-40 upon return?

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Thats what I require for those who buy my engines. The DT 40 has a 5K mile life span, if you have 2,000 miles on it you can drain it into a clean container, run the XP9 for the track, then after the event dump it. You can then run another 3K miles on the DT40 without issue. Hassle? Yep. XP is depleted in 750 miles of track and street service, thats the way it was designed. It also has horrible storage qualities, because race oil is not a preservative oil. Just like changing tires optimizes a street car into a track car, changing oils does the same thing.

Thank you sir!

Man I am ever gald that issue is settled once and for all. They should offer a group buy on JG oil.

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Volume buys don't save any money on a product like this.. Every time I have ran a special on anything I have regretted it. Thats why you never see discounts or incentives on any of my products or engines.

Sensible advice and reasons. Thank you.

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Is the primary distinction between track and street use the temperature that the oil sees? Obviously load factors in as well, but if you're able to reduce operating temperatures of the oil does it buy you any margin for the use of DT40 at the track? Unless I'm using a trailer to bring the car to the track I'm need to change oil at the track on a regular basis...If an oil cooler could minimize the possibility of problems it might be a potential compromise.

No, street oils are very poor performers in the M96 engine on track. DT 40 was not ever considered as a race oil. DT40 should not be utilized on the track, AX or otherwise.

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So then why does LNEngineering post this exact phrase on their website concerning DT40!!! In development for several years, starting February 2012 we will now offer DT40, a high zinc formulation for modern European Sports Cars in a 5w40 viscosity, suitable for both street and track use superior to any oil LN Engineering has previously used or recommended and has been thoroughly tested by Flat 6 Innovations and Jake Raby, coinciding with their joint development of the M96 and M97 engine platform. source: http://www.lnengineering.com/joegibbsracingoils.html 2nd paragraph

Charles and I just talked about this last week and that phrase will be removed. I honestly thought that he already removed it.

!! that's why I bought DT40 oil to begin with - for track sessions.. based on that advertisement... looks like I'm going back to Castrol 5W50 - UOAs were always good with that oil - and oil pressure was decent as well. who sells XP-9?

Thanks Jake. I never thought about putting the slightly used DT-40 back into the car after track. That makes the cost more palatable. And thanks for the links Ubermensch.

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It is a hassle, but any street oil requires the same regimen and any true race oil has no preservation properties and no lifespan.

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Thx for misinforming the whole RENNLIST community over the last 2 years!!! I guess everybody has to make a buck somehow.

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I said that we never designed the oil to be a race oil. I did not say that it has led to issues on the track, because it hasn't. People have used it on the track, but those are not my purchasers. The oil is just as effective on the track as most any other readily available street oil. Lots have people have used it on the track with no issues, but it simply was not specifically developed for the track, like XP-9 or even XP-5. Street oils perform best below their VI ratings that are measured at 212F. Just because it works on the track doesn't mean that it is optimized for the track. Street tires work on the track, but slicks are much better but don't last as long, right? The same goes with this oil. The additive packages must be friendly to 5K mile service intervals and be compliant with O2 sensors and catalytic converters. Finding the sweet spot for these characteristics of the oil was a bit of a challenge. We have employed DT40 on the track in our own cars and that dates back to 2008 and I had zero issues in doing so, but again- it is not designed for that service. The DT40 has not even been available to the public for two years! It became available to the public in March of 2012. Before that you had to buy my engine to purchase it and it had to come directly from us. As far as making a buck off it, I don't even sell it to anyone other than our engine purchasers. Today Summit, Jegs and other retailers sell it and none of that goes into my pocket, and I don't care. I don't believe that street oils have a place in the M96 engine on-track based on my direct experience. When I said that it shouldn't even be used once on track I was generalizing all street oils, not just DT40.

As a former motorcycle roadracer and engine builder I always ran Kendall 10w40 GT-1, the original formula which is now sold as Brad Penn. I was in contact with engineers at Kendall and they gave me a lot of recommendations, most of which were contrary to street knowledge. The GT-1 worked on the Salt Flats to top speed runs and nearly a decade of Superbike and Supersport racing in sprint races and 4 and 6 hour endurance races. The 10-40 GT-1 was labeled an automotive oil suitable for street, high performance, turbo and competition uses. I did frequent tear downs and never saw any indication of any oil related failure. The film strength of the Kendall oil was incredible as you would have to scrub the parts in the solvent tank to get the oil off. So, my question is what's the difference between a racing oil and street oil in JG?

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Because it's true? I'm guessing?

I've tried to stay away from this but really, M96 specific oil? Last time I checked, the M96 was just a regular combustion motor in a boxer configuration such as that as Subaru's. There's nothing exotic about it imo. It isn't some space age design. Once again, I can see Jake wanting to protect or preserve the integrity of his own engines and he has that right as the builder and it would make sense in his situation. However for the rest of us that have used 996's, I don't really see the logic...

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Automotive design involves many compromises. Jake Raby hates to compromise.

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I can definitely see that but in the case of a used 996 which all of us have, our engines have already been compromised somewhat given that rational of having had "regular" motor oil in it for 20k, 50k, 100k. Also compromise can be subjective in terms of what your'e expecting. I have over 120k on original motor using Mobil and it's been just fine. Am I expecting to keep the car forever and drive over 500k?, no. The "compromise" for me has been working just fine. Thank you. Although I can definitely appreciate over-engineering, I'm in the camp that it isn't necessarily needed sometimes at the expense of other things.

If you find it hard to believe JR knows what hes talking about, just dont follow his advice. I and many others will listen and use what he recommends. There is no law I know of that mandates you must use JG in your 996 so its your choice. There is no call to insult him or imply that he contradicts anything he has posted. Hes giving free sound advice that I will use. Why start using JG after 20K, 40K, etc. miles? Why not? The damage has been done argument makes no sense. Its never too late to do PM, unless the engine is destroyed.

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I know you're a fanboi but I do agree with personal choice. I wasn't in no way insulting JR or anyone that decides to use his oil. I was merely stating that I personally don't see the logic. As for damage has been done argument, one can argue "what damage?". "Why fix something that isn't broke" is the flipside to PM. All personal choices on what makes you sleep better at night. I think many that haven't caught on are merely curious in the long term effects(if there are any) and since there is no long term sample yet, are just asking for other info to determine the feasibility of whether to switch or not. JR should give you a discount for at least being the main cheerleader.

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Agreed. Considering there has been one UOA posted, and still no virgin specifications, I won't be using it until some more product data is available.

Like I said, depends on your use. I will likely never see more than one oil change a year, so why not? Cost difference is minimal, and if it makes a difference, well worth it. I might think different if I made 5 changes a year, though.. But not even for autocross? Really, now we're pushing it. AX is mild on an engine, oil wise. They just last too short a time.

As others mentioned, JR doesn't seem to be a fan of compromise and I can understand that. He's posting his best advice and it's up to users to decided what they're going to do. But when you see other's jumping on him for saying it shouldn't be used on the track, can you imagine what they would do if he said you could use it on the track and then someone had a failure? The mobs with torches would be out in streets. From what I read he's posting what he believes is the best no-compromise approach to engine longevity. Although I'd like to not compromise, the reality is that I don't have a tow vehicle and I don't think it's realistic for me to change oil at the track for every event I drive to. So, I like most people, need to compromise. Who knows exactly what I'll do, but I can tell you that if I ran DT40 or any other non race oil at the track and had a failure I wouldn't have anyone to blame but myself. I've always run Mobil on the street and on the track and haven't had an issue. Will I ever have an issue? Maybe, maybe not, but at least I'm better informed about how I can minimize the probability of an issue. In the meantime, I appreciated the opportunity to learn more about this oil and some of the considerations that went into its development.

Since the position of DT40 is that of a street oil now, it would be interesting to see the long term real world effects of the condition of the cats and O2 sensors to see if they fail in any premature way with the elevated zinc levels. And by long term, I mean 80-100k miles and real world, meaning real driving and not on rollers in laboratory conditions like the million mile Mobil1 test car. Edit: Found interesting spec guide for ZDDP/Phosphorous content in the various M1 oils. http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/...duct_Guide.pdf

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All is good until there is a failure. At that point, it is time to identify the cause(s) of the failure. Several in this thread have pointed out that switching to a new oil may be better/worse for the engine, but it would likely take time and miles to prove either. We have been down a similar road with the IMS retrofit. Many feel that their cars are safer from IMS failure by installing the retrofit IMS bearing, yet has there been enough time and miles to support this as fact? Some OEM bearings have clearly failed at 40k, 60k, 100k, etc. Are there enough cars with the retrofit bearing, with enough time and miles, to accurately show that the replacement bearing will be any safer?

just got back from WalMart with 9 quarts of Mobil 1 OW-40 ($6.97/quart)...for my annual oil change (currently have 65K miles, 100% street only, weekend toy, 5K miles/year max) . P.S. Been reading a lot of good stuff about EVOO

Alpine, nice link, thanks. Interesting to see that the 15W-50 oil that Mobil mentions as being suitable for street and track use does have a little higher levels than most.

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Interesting to note that they also have a specific racing oils made just for racing which does have the elevated and highest ZDDP/Phosphorous content. The chart also backs up another poster's comments on the v-Twin oil as well.

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Those that are 40 weight and above do not need to comply to additive guidelines: http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Arti...t_why_how.aspx The "track ready" terminology refers largely to the lack of detergents coupled with a high level of protectant additives and a shear stable base stock. Hence why many true track oils are single weight; the lack of v iscosity i ndex i mprovers (the presence of which makes an oil multi-weight) keeps them shear stable (VII's shear down over time in high temperature/high shear conditions). Couple that with a lack of detergents (which allows the protectant additives to do their job completely without being washed out) and a high additive pack, and you've got yourself a track oil. And another link: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/oilshear.htm

Shawn I agree 100%

Gonzo, I think the experts are admitting that the IMSB is a "wear" item and should be replaced as PM at @30K to 40K if I remember correctly. Thats just the way it goes and we're stuck with if you have 996 and some newer, I think all the way up to 2008? Even Bentley states it is considered a regular maintenance item.

Krom, just wondering, your area is a warm climate, right? Have you considered 5-40W or paying a little more for the JG street oil?

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Been learning a lot of new stuff from this thread and honestly, still on the fence Maybe after I get the UOA results, will look into other options. (P.S. 2 trucks, 2 bikes, and 3 cars: been lucky to have had zero issues with Mobil 1)

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It's funny you mention it because I will be switching to Castrol 5w40 partly due to the fact that I only drive my car in 3 seasons and the fact that it is becoming readily available. Oh and the sales they had for under $5 each didn't hurt either. I captured my old m1 oil for Blackstone analysis just because its been awhile but also as a reference against the Castrol for the future.

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Yes, I've seen info on their racing oil before but the limited lifetime (~500 miles) makes it a tough option for me. What I came away wondering was even though some of these M1 oils have good levels of anti-wear additives, how does their shear stability compare to the data JR presented earlier.

I apologize for digging up this thread. I am going to try the DT40. In looking for a deal I have seen 02406and 02407 referenced after DT40 in the oil description. What is the difference?

Steve, the second number is just the part number for a case instead of 1 quart. I got mine from Summit in a few days. I think it added 20HP!!!! Just joking but I think the bottom line is that thanks to JR's research, several "experts" have finally recognized or admitted the need for a high zinc content oil for the M96 engine to ensure its longevity. You will "hear" the difference in the engine when you swap and I will be testing mine after a few months or 3K miles.

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Best deal I found was actually Amazon due to the free shipping. $131 for 12pack. Plus I got some Einszett rubber care while I was there. My sunroof rubber seal is cracking.

[QUOTE=KrazyK;10188327]Steve, the second number is just the part number for a case instead of 1 quart. I got mine from Summit in a few days. I think it added 20HP!!!! Did you first run the JG Break in oil before going to DT40?

Due to my high copper and iron level (~20ppm for both in 5k miles oil). I plan to try DT40 also. Krazy, Jakes, or others, there are two JG break-in oils, 15W-50 and 5w-30. I assume we should use BR 15W-50 for 100 miles before using DT40? TIA

Just to be clear here. The preliminary use of the break in oil is to have a more accurate oil analysis. It's not necessary if one doesn't intend to do the OA. Right?

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Based on my previous reading, my understanding is the break in oil will remove the detergent that is present in the old oil, which will dilute the ZDDP in the new DT40 oil if not removed. So without flushing, you can't get the full benefit of DT40, at least in the first oil change.

I just order a case (12 qts) of Joe Gibbs DT40 from JoeGibbsOilSales.com this weekend. Cost was $119.88 .and free shipping

Yep, thats the best price I have seen. I hope their giving JR his commission so I dont feel so bad for paying more.

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Anyone interested in two cases for $200 plus shipping or pickup at Chin Motorsports April 13th-14th event at Sebring?

I just got my Flat Six 3.6L Boxster back from Jake and the boys in Cleveland, GA. It has DT40 in it now, of course, and that's all I'll use on the street. XP9, of course, for the track. I know as much about oil as the rest of you guys (which is to say, not that much really). I'm betting it's like anything -- if you're an expert in it, a professional, you kind of chuckle at the stuff people say based on internet info. I do in my job (commodity trader), whenever I hear someone talking about the price of oil or gold or corn. I just chuckle, because they clearly have no idea what they're talking about, but they sound like they do to everyone else. On the other hand, Jake Raby is a pro and knows what he's talking about. You can ignore it, of course, or demand data to analyze -- if you're a lubricant engineer -- but that's all foolishness. Just like most oil threads, foolishness. People who don't know much arguing over the stuff they don't know.

^^^ threesome? Pm KK As per your logic, I guess Porsche is not an expert then?

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I also have a few cases for sale up here in Toronto - local pickup

So I swapped over to DT40 this weekend and I have to say the motor sounded significantly quieter with both the BR30 in it and now the DT40. My father is has been a mechanic for years and restores cars as a hobby but has no idea about the "magic" of DT40 also commented on how much quieter the motor sounded since he had the car at his house all winter, and this was an unsolicited opinion. So take it as you may, but that is just my $.02

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How long (how far) did you run the BR30 (flush)? Thanks.

As per the recommendation of Joe Gibbs I just let the motor warm up and drove it around the blocks a few times to get the oil circulated and went for the DT 40. I know Jake recommends driving up to 100 miles on the BR 30, but you have to make sure you take it easy. As I had to take the car back to my place on a 2 hour drive on the highways I knew I wasn't going to be able to keep the revs low so I opted to get the DT 40 in before the trip home.

I didnt do a BR30 break in period. Went straight from M1 to DT40 after the car was driven all day.

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Thank you. That's what I did. I didn't know about the BR30 flush. Oh well, doing an early oil change again at about the 2,500 mile mark. No sweat.

Someone please clarify. As I think I read previously, The break in flush is to get an accurate OA with the DT40. Other than that it's not necessary. Is that correct? In other words the flush isn't needed unless I'm going to do an oil analysis.

Dt40 in my car all winter during storage. When I started it up there was no lifter clacking even though it had sat for 5 months untouched. ! Wow. You usually get some of this after long sitting periods. Too bad we can't use it on the track Thinking of using amsoil dominator 15-w50 for hot track days; draining it and use dt 40 for daily usage.

You can read more about the oil, how it was formulated and why, as written by the man himself Jake Raby. He formulated the oil specifically for the M96 engine and apparently got it right. If more 996 owners would have taken the time to read what he and other experts say about the need for a high zinc, higher viscosity oil, and more frequent oil changes for the M96 engine, there wouldn't have been an IMSB crisis in the first place.

[Image-only post; no author-written text. Original image references:] https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/popcorn.gif

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IMS bearing failure and oil change type/frequency are completely unrelated issues.

Read what the experts say about the issue and you will see the exact opposite of your statement is true. To prevent IMSB issues, they recommend higher viscosity oil, high zinc content, more frequent oil change interval of 3K to 5K. You can find the same articles if you look.

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I'd guess Porsche has oil experts in their employ who know a lot. And they have accountants who know things, too. In the end, they stick a Mobil-1 sticker on their car for whatever reason moves them. They also recommend only Porsche-branded parts for their cars, which I have found on several occasions not to be good advice. And, they're the very same people who brought you 12 glorious years of the intermediate shaft bearing. YMMV.

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I have. extensively, from Casper Labs, Hartech, Flat6, etc. IMS bearing failure is a result of the internal seal separating the bearings from the regularly oiled environment failing, which allows the previously greased packed bearing to have the lubrication removed. With the seal still in place and the formerly adequate grease now gone, the bearing is not properly lubricated via splash oiling from the engine. High zinc, high viscosity, high HT/HS numbers won't help much if the oil can't get there properly. The frequent changes recommended using nectar of the gods is, at best, a stopgap measure to "muddle-through" a compromised bearing environment. Proper fix: open up the bearing, and provide proper lubrication.

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That is correct. Failure of the IMS is influenced by oil. Why change oil infrequently anyway? Relative to the risk taken, what does one gain over the life of a car -- especially an expensive car -- by changing the oil a little less often? I don't get it.

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I never stated I go for the long interval; I am simply saying that oil change frequency/quality will have a marginal influence at best, on a bearing with a compromised design. I change it frequently anyways, and for other reasons aside from the IMS bearing it should be changed frequently with a higher grade oil.

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This is, in my opinion, 100% spot on. The "proper" fix might well be an oil-pressure lubricated bearing (similar to a main bearing, for instance) that gets rid of the whole sealed-ball-bearing thing entirely. I'd be willing to bet that the IMS got very little engineering, really. "It's just a shaft to turn the timing chains -- put a bearing on it and lets move on..."

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My bad on the whole interval thing -- I should've been more clear I was just generally ranting. I don't know that the bearing design is bad so much as using it there is dumb. As sealed ball bearing go, I'd guess it's typical. It's sticking it in there with hot, relatively thin oil that creates trouble. Wheel bearings, for example, withstand much more load than IMS bearings. They're just not constantly soaked in hot motor oil. From what I've been told, the more frequent changes and higher-viscosity oil make a difference to at least prolong its life.

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It's kinda ironic that people that complain about these cars or have false pretenses are still owners of these "time bombs" and all the sub-par engineering that exists. One has to remember how many 996 cars they produced to put it in perspective and this forum only accounts for a fraction of those numbers. With most of the people on here either being complainers, victims, enthusiasts, or any of the combo. I see the artificial fear that has been perpetuated by certain individuals still hasn't died down...

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Artificial? I took this one apart today...

Artificial was probably the wrong choice of words. Artificially Inflated was probably more appropriate. And yes purdy pictures do tend to add to the fear factor as well.

Jake, I say Photoshop.

Touche Alp. Looks like a $20,000 piece of scrap metal to me. Jake, can you give the scoop on what happened?

No photoshop here.. The other pics are at Facebook.com/fixabrokensix for your viewing pleasure. You can also check out "The Grande Failure" pics which belong to a member of this forum. His was taken apart yesterday.. Inflated? That's just my ego from performing all these miracles:-)

Oh boy, here we go again... For the newbs that are tuning in, just search for any of the numerous i*s threads out there and you will begin to see a common pattern with a certain degree of predictability. KK is the poster child of this fear as he can't even take a 300 mile trip without sharting his pants and thinking the world will end. when in reality he would've done every safeguard measure only to have a 16yo girl run into him while texting, thus totaling his car and rendering all of his stress and worrying, not to mention all the wasted money, down the drain. The last time I checked, Insurance doesn't cover you for proactive and unnecessary/excessive maintenance items.

Jake, I assume that this victim was using Mobil 0W-40 and a change interval of 15,000 miles? Man that's sad to see that kind of damage. Mmahon, you are 100% correct, and that's exactly what I did. Common sense would dictate that Porsche would have done the same rather than use a $12 sealed bearing.

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Have no idea and don't care! All that matters is that he won't be after the engine assumes my name.

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You are something else.

D-chunk + scored cylinder?

The D chunk was collateral damage from the primary failure.

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false. If this doesn't happen to you and you can not think about it, the fear may be artificial. If this does happen to you, the fear is not so artificial anymore. As I said in another thread, if you are part of the X% of people who experience a failure, it doesn't matter much that the remaining XX% of people haven't, does it? Really, the IMS situation comes down to risk tolerance. Do your due diligence and weigh the risks against your own particular risk aversion. If you are concerned, put in a new bearing. If not, realize you may take a chance and be happy about it.

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As previously mentioned, I made an error in stating "artificial" when I should've said "artificially inflated". I do agree with you 100% in the above statement. It is neither I or anyone else to make a determination on what one should or should not do. I've always maintained that it is a personal decision depending on one's comfort level. The same can be the said about Colonoscopies, Prostate screening, eating brocolli, etc...

Jake, Out of all the IMS bearings you have examined have you encountered any OEM bearing in which the seals were still intact, in that they still had original grease lubricant and not filled with oil? I suspect every one you have seen the seals were compromised but could you please verify?

Oh no way!... it's not over is it? . This thread was like a 70's soap opera. I need to know how it ends! That last question was a good one. Have there been any IMS (primary) failures with the seals & grease in tact? BTW, I just took advantage of Charles' 20% 2 day offer and picked up some BR30 & XP9 for $80 off! Thanks for all you do guys. (LNE & JR) Having been a retailer in the "performance racing biz" I know all too well that dealing with the detractors is tough. My experience with your products has so far been very positive. Carry on! Here are some pics of my latest M96 hack job http://www.flickr.com/photos/apex944...7633702078228/

Now thats what Im talking about. More pics of the M96 POS gutless internals being replaced with HP parts. Awesome photos but include the details, please! (Jake wont share with us)

Ok JR, Whats going on with the JG DT40 oil? Why is it now named "Driven"? Has the formula changed? I need a new batch for my 6 month oil changed and noticed the new name. Hope this is still the same stuff you formulated as they have removed the "Flat 6" endorsement.

Its just new packaging.. Nothing changed at all. The Driven name has been around for a couple of years and was used as the brand ventured further and further from NASCAR, where people are familiar with the Joe Gibbs name. Thats all.

Thanks Jake. Any reason "Flat 6" is gone, unless thats too personal?

I requested that it be removed. We are working more and more behind the scenes and we were getting to many calls/ emails about the oil and its characteristics, because my name was on the label. I pulled the online store down and sold my aircooled inventory to LN so we can expand engine development and building. Anything that pulls us/ me away from development or engine completion is being eliminated. We are so slammed! No end in sight, either… We developed both the DT40 and XP9 for our engine program, along with our intermediate break in oil. Over time these trickled down to the rest of the market and we further tested DT40 in other European engines to aid Driven with the implementation of the oil for other applications with similar engine technology employed (VVT/ Alusil/ Lokasil and etc).

I ordered a case off Amazon in late December and it was the old packaging still. $131 and free shipping.

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Since when did you extend your OCI to 6 months? I'm a bit shocked...

Now its a bit over 6 months. The sad part is that its only about 400 miles on the oil.

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Well, that explains your screen name. On many levels.

Straight from the M96 master himself, Jake Raby!

^ Note the comma, Krazy. That's 3,000-5,000 miles, not 300-500.

Krazy, please PM me your address. I'll send you a self-addressed-stamped 5-gallon pail to drain your oil into, and have returned to me. Thanks.

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You can't be serious. For ****'s sake, just drive the ****ing car for half an hour and burn off any condensation in the engine.

Hold on now. In my defense, I did a lot of PM during this time. Rebuilt front axles, dropped engine/trans, etc.

Yes?

LOL..that would work well as a Dos Equis ad too

My mistake. I just checked my records and its 8 months and 1200 miles. So actually Im over JR's 6 month recommendation. Regardless, sucks that its time to change it again.

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Jake, any comments on cold weather starts with DT40 5W-40? Live in northeast(kind of) and was wondering if there were any concerns.

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How cold ya talking? A high quality 5W full synthetic oil is really no problem in cold weather. Artic temps, you might want to use a 0W (not available at Gibbs). You're fine.

As long as this thread has been revived, Jake has there been any long term sample/analysis done on whether using this oil(particularly in track conditions with the elevated temps and rpm ranges) has any long term reliablity effects on the OEM cats?

^DT40 is NOT recommended for track duty. They have other products for that.

LexVan is right. I believe Jake specifically had them remove the track reference for the DT40 http://www.drivenracingoil.com/dro/d...tic-5w-40html/

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I take it then that you are running DT40 in Chicago. Do you drive it in winter as well? I'm in Pittsburgh so in winter we will usually have a few days in the teens

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My cars are stored mid October till April in a heated garage.

Single digits last week in Boston and all is well, oil pressure numbers all the same easy start-up I woudn't worry about cold temps till you get to negative numbers.

^I agree. We had 18 below zero last Monday and about 15 below on Tuesday. Didn't see any 911's on the roads. Cayennes. Sure.

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Thanks for the update, didn't know it was removed.

No, I had them remove my name from the bottle with the new packaging. Trying to keep the phone call volume down here, and that seal on the bottle made everyone want to call and ask 20 questions.. Heck, I don't even sell oil… Unless its in an engine.

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I've been wondering the same thing. I've read a few different things online, and have not been able to determine when it's too cold for 5W-40. There seems to be some people who say 10* and others who say -10*. I'm a Mobil 1 0W-40 user, but have been contemplating the switch to 5W-40. I've also read that it's not ideal to go back and forth between different oil brands, so I don't think Mobil in the winter and Joe Gibbs in the summer is a good option. I drive all year and it's common to have single digit temps in the winter, but usually only a few days that are negative.

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Keep running your 0W40. Switch to Mobil 5W50 for the summer. Yes, Mobil's additive package don't work we'll with Gibb's for users that would want to keep switching back and forth. All the oil never comes out. There is always residual.

I would never recommend swapping back and forth between oils just to attain a zero weight oil, or for any other reason. Stick with one system of oil. When my engines are built they are assembled with Gibbs break in oil and grease, broken in on BR Break in oil, then ran on Gibbs Intermediate oil, then swapped to DT40 on the street and XP9 or XP5 on the track. Hopefully the owner loves the engine enough to keep it this way. Its been years since I used M1 for anything other than a "control" for a comparative evaluation. We have used DT40 in sub zero temps without issues since 2009, when it wasn't even a product, it was just an OS# from Lubrizol that only we could source. In fact, we just carried out testing of DT40 in Chicago in temperatures of -22 with a -52 wind chill. The engine was started over and over until the battery died, never allowing it to warm up at all. Then charge the battery or swap it out, and do it all over again. Yes, this is pure punishment on the entire car and engine, but thats how we ensure that we don't have issues. Sacrificial engines are just part of the game at our level. Here's a shot from one of the test vehicles, a Cayenne with a Raby 5.1 big bore engine, when it was -16F. We put it through hell.

Jake, Thanks for the info and the earlier clarification. So just to be clear, is it imperative that I run the break-in oil though the engine first before the switch to 5W-40, or can i go straight to the 5W-40. Currently running M1 0W40 as that is how I got the car a few months ago.

Is the engine fresh?

Not sure what you mean by fresh. Assuming it means new and the answer to that would "no". 52K miles previous owner replaced water pump and LNE IMSB(prophylactic) Sent from my iPhone using Rennlist

Ok, just wondered if the engine had been opened up, since you were asking about the break in oil. Any time we change systems with oils we utilize a purge thats carried out with break in oil. Cross pollination of oils is not favorable.

Jake, thanks for the clarification, so based on that: I do a full oil change with the break in oil, not just additive correct? And how long should it be in until the second change to DT 40?

Never use an additive. Change oil using the BR, run 1-300 miles, the swap to DT40 and service every 5K/ 6 months.

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Any chance the BR will help quiet a noisy lifter on a 99 C2 given the extra cleaning agents in it?

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Probably not, and it may make it worse. Once a lifter becomes noisy its pretty much a mechanical issue and the lifter crown radius becomes damaged from excess lash. The noise that you hear is excess lash.

Jake are you still making and developing the new and improved DT40??

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I was going to post this somewhere, and this thread seems like the right place. I recently listened to an episode of Adam Carolla's CarCast show with Lake Speed from Joe Gibbs racing oil. Jake has a lot of interesting things to say about oil, zinc, break-in oil, changing oils, etc. http://www.adamcarolla.com/CarCastBl...ed-jr-audi-r8/ When I went looking for the link to the episode, I found this return visit from Lake, which I haven't listened to, but probably will listen later today during my drive to Detroit. http://www.adamcarolla.com/CarCastBl...-jaguar-xkr-s/ I may pick some of this oil up for the RS. I drove the Targa all over the place during the recent bad weather. All-Wheel drive and snow tires made for easy driving. This is my first winter with the Targa back, but I've driven it in some of Chicago's worst snow storms with nary a problem.

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Lake is an amazing guy... I LOVE working with him and we are always on the same page. Matter of fact PCA will be here on April 5th 2014 for a Tech Seminar and Lake will be one of the Presenters as well as Charles Navarro and yours truly. Anyone in the area should attend! The current DT40 hasn't changed since 2012. The new version of the oil has been in development for over a year now, but its not complete yet, and honestly won't be able to have the final development done until the hottest summer temperatures are experienced and we can gather the final data.

Jake, last one for me on this topic. DO I need to be using the BR30 or BR40 for the initial clean out or does it matter

All this JG-DT40 talk and revival must be making KK all warm and fuzzy.

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If you have a cold climate I'd run BR30 this time of year.

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Great thanks

Sure, even though Jake profits from every blown engine he still promotes the right oil for PM. According to statistics, JG DT40 has created or saved 1000's of M96 engines.

Just curious. Is there a dealer in Japan for the DT40?

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KK, stop spreading bull ****. There are no 1000's of engines, and you have no statistics to back this up. Post your sources. My car has 2x the mileage of your car, always lived on M1 oil and on 10k dealer serviced oil changes just fine up to 120k miles. Your car has oil changes with DT40 ever 400 miles and is permanently broken. Something does not add up? How about you go drive your car for a change? You would make a horrible endorser for any M96 product as your car is permanently broken and never gets driven. Source, same 10k oil changes go down and down and down: Service_zps33e3cde0.jpg Edit: This is in no way attacking the F6 or their oil product. I have an issue with KK spewing baseless claims about your product and fear mongering. It does not sit well with me when someone who barely drives the car spews bull **** without anything to back it up.

Whatever.. None of it bothers me. People will say whatever they want, and you can be a hero or a zero. I do my own thing and have fun doing it. DT40 wasn't ever suppose to go to market, if the economy hadn't crashed and Lubrizol HAD to make 3,000 gallons of the oil to make a batch, it never would have been more than available to the owners of our engines and sold in this packaging. We had a lot of fun with it, and yes thats my Great Grandfather… He looks like he was about as nice as I am :-)

That is just awesome! That's what we need for our 996's: SNAKE OIL!

I know better than to wade into yet another "performance oil" thread, so I skipped all the static and ***-kissing parts. I have a simple question for Jake: If I send an engine to you for a build, is oil brand a determining factor on your build warranty? ( my car is fine, this is for future reference) For reference, I am using Motul with LN spin-on and magnetic drain plug on 5K schedule. Thanks

Kala, I dont think you got the joke. It was a play on words that were constantly used by the ObaXX Administration, their absurd claims about "created or saved" jobs. Each time I heard it, I wanted to puke. But, the JG oil is no joke. It will change your life! I think hes stated many times, JG oil is mandatory for warranty on his engines.

Best thing we could hope for is KK sells his 996 and moves on to a BMW, and another forum. No we don't "get your jokes". Nice job of pivoting to politics as an escape from the attack. 2003 Carrera 4S Speed Yellow / 1955 356 Continental 1500 Rust Red

Though I think its sad you dont get the humor, if forum MEMBERS prefer I move on, I wont post anything.

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This has been the wish of members for a long time now.

No hard feelings. Some good info on forum. Admin please delete my account and membership.

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So childish. Don't like the game anymore so ya want to take your ball home. Grow up. It's not too late. Or. Join the guy up in Canada (Adrian?? ).

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Mark, you heard the man, get on it ASAP for all our sakes. (BTW r u kidding KK?)

Good info in this thread. Ill change over to DT40 next time. And for the record, I vote KIDS stays active on the forum. Any DIY er that contributes knowledge and experience is okay in my book.

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Damn phone... that should be KK not KIDS

Seriously? I have to say to you all that the 996 forum is becoming borderline pathetic. Everyone dogs on KK because he maintains his car to the highest level, then he shares his experiences with us. Heaven forbid we make it about the cars. I don't know Keith but my perception is that he is a good guy who accepts his approach as a little out of the 'new' norm and plays the part of the extremist intentionally for the humor of others. Since I joined a few years ago, I think the quality of the technical conversations in this forum has declined. I rarely see logray or ddharn post in here- the contributions they made to this forum were invaluable. Personally the departure of these members (including KK) brings the level of 996 technical contribution to such a low level that I will probably also stop visiting here. (You can find me mostly in the ihi thread)

KK, again I am not sure if you are being serious of joking here. You obviously have some mechanical skills and you do your own work, I like that and it is great. The problem that I have (and some other members it seems) is with your baseless bashing of the 996 platform and constant fear mongering. In majority if your posts you refer to some ****ty part of the 996. Those posts are taken from the first page of your recent posts: - According to statistics, JG DT40 has created or saved 1000's of M96 engines. -Finally someone has enough sense to keep two spare engines. Oh well. -Most of the info is probably fairly accurate except the failure rate is now much higher than what was stated orginally. -According to the press it prevents any wear and blown engines. Tailor made for us I guess? -Yes, I too was sorry hear about the latest M96 engine explosion. -Instead of sorting through the usual BS nonsense you can right to all info about scored cylinders at Jake Rabys Flat 6 website. Yes, it does happen to low mileage 3.6's. Pass on the car unless... - can tell you exactly what I would do. I would drop the engine and begin to disassamble it to check for... -Sorry Bro but theres your answer. I dont get it how people on here dont learn from others misery or at least read Jakes info before they do this. Almost 1/2 of your posts are about engine failure or imply to it in an indirect way. It adds no value to continually bash the car and remind people that "**** can happen to your ****ty car". The analogy would be talking to the cancer survivor and constantly asking him "Do you know that with your cancer type the return is of cancer is pretty certain? Do you sleep well at night knowing that you can get sick again? How is the meds working for you?". I just don't get why you have the need to constantly bash or "joke" about the bad parts of the car. Start joking about good parts, how you can drive it fast, how it turns heads, how you make love to your wife on the hood, how you make love to your wife in the back seats etc...nobody will say a word to you.

Remember KK is also saving his wife for the next guy too. As for the people that want to just read technical posts, there is this place called RennTech that have many great contributors, one of them being Loren.

Line crossed Sent from my iPhone using Rennlist

I don't care what KK does. Stay, go, whatever. The nonstop 996 bashing is fatiguing And frankly doesn't paint a positive picture of the model. I respect Jakes' work, but offering no warranty on his engine outside of DT40 use is problematic for me. To that end, it's a free world.

Its pretty simple. We developed DT40 & XP9 for our engines and the engine were developed around DT40 and XP9. Beginning this year with all builds proposed in 2014 (the entire year is already booked, except one date- BTW) we are providing all oils during the warranty period for free. This isn't just limited to break in and intermediate oil, its including the period of service for the entire year that the warranty is in place. I am doing this, and even providing free shipping to ensure that the engine is protected and that there are no excuses for someone to use anything else in the engine that we've worked so hard to create. After the 1 year unlimited mileage warranty, you can use what you want. At that point we are disconnected and have done our part. That said, anytime someone wants to buy an engine only for a warranty, well it runs my red flag to the top of the pole. None of it really matters, in the history of our program we have had ONE warranty claim- period. I know too much about these engines and their failures to just allow someone to dump in any oil, no matter what Porsche says, what the oil Mfr. says, or what urban legend may hold. Took this one apart today-

^^^ You got your hands full there Jake.

Nah, hell, this is just a regular day at the office… Its the second one thats come apart this bad this week. Not a problem at all.

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Stupid analogy, it's a ****ing (slow) car not a human life. Grow up. In a nutshell, I believe (again I don't know KK) that its a cocktail of web based sarcasm/cynicism. Most "don't get it". Alpine.... Agreed, renntech is probably the ticket.

My quick observation is that there are those here who see 996 ownership as a chore. ( I'll use KK as an example) Seems like no fun at all to have explosive colon every day over a car. At what point do they become fun to enjoy? Or, said otherwise, why have or keep one? To read these threads, one could easily surmise they made is mistake in their purchase. Seems counter-intuitive to me on a Porsche enthusiast site. Then again I'm new.

Once KK stops the fear mongering and negative post, the 996 market value will gain back at least 10-20% value. He's really shooting himself in the foot with the negative posts. In fact i dont ever recall KK ever praising or saying one positive thing about the 996. Had he been a cheerleader for the 996 like he cheers for Jake, he could've sold his car for a premium and spent a bit more to get a turbo and not have to worry about the IXX again. I always said its a lot easier to divorce a car than a wife.

Agreed Even the infamous Jake Raby posts a grenaded block with every post. As a fan of Capitalism, I get it. A cursory read would indicate that Porsche is clueless and every M96 out there will pass through his shop sooner or later...and be reminded until you buy the oil or buy the engine. There's a term for that...

Let's talk about oil again. Glad to see that DT40 was tested in cold weather. Does anyone know what it takes to be on the Porsche recommended oil list, and why DT40 isn't on the list? I assume $$$ is involved, but what else? Do you need to be invited, can companies submit requests? Does Porsche just look at the specs, or do they actually run it in engines?

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There's literally 100s of oils on the approved list. Not like they/we need anymore. None of them are these boutique oils BTW. And I think companies like JG puts their monies into R&D and not big budget approval list projects.

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Hell, if Porsche approved it I probably wouldn't want anything to do with it. The guys at Gibbs wouldn't even consider trying to get the oil approved. I am the same way, as long as 3000 gallons a year are sold, (enough to have the oil for ourselves) I could care less.

Hey Jake. Thank you for your work. New owner of a 996 '04 C2 now running DT40 but i didnt realize til I read this thread that a BR break-in oil is recommended. Is this a big deal? Obviously its too late now, but will it affect my recommended change interval? I plan on changing every 2-3k miles/2-3 months.

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You're fine. Change in 3,000. Then go to 5,000 mile changes. Unless you're tracking it.

I was throwing around ideas of what to do with my used (6 months 400 miles) JG DT40 I just drained and thought, "why not put it in my lawnmower"? The engine is air cooled (like a Porsche), horizontal opposed (like a Porsche), well horizontal at least, the mower is black (like the JG bottle), and the oil was free (cause I just drained it). The resluts are amazing. The 21HP egnine now lays down solid butt dyno numbers of at least 30HP. It now mows at lightning speed and has not blown up. Incredible!

I do that all the time.. All my tractors, mowers and non- diesel power equipment run slightly used Driven oils... I run DT50 in my Deuta- Fahr aircooled diesel tractor, too.. It loves it, especially when mixed with some high grade Raby bio diesel... Smells like a mixture of high zinc and french fries.

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* Please post the UOA results from your mower's next oil change. * What are these "resluts" you speak of? This sounds interesting.

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Why not? I don't know what separates approved oils from non approved. I tried DT40 with my last oil change, and was skeptical, but it really did seem to result in a slightly quieter and smoother engine. Of course, shortly soon after I added the Function First transmission inserts, resulting in increased cabin NVH.

About 700,000.00 last time I checked.

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Is that US or Euros?

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Jake, So buy a case of JG Break ( I see 3 types ) but which one for a 1997 986? Do I put in a new oil filter when I put in the break? Then a new one again with the DT40? Thx.

Here is a quick cheat sheet on oils I put together. Covers break in, intermediate, and final oils.

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Thanks Charles. I have your ims solution in my car

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Hi Charles, Do you still recommend the Motul oil for under warranty engines for a 2012 9A1? If not, which one? I would prefer the DI40 but the car is under a CPO warranty and want the dealer to perform oil changes for documentation purposes. I don't think DI40 is Porsche approved yet? I realize this is the 996 forum but everyone loves the oil threads.

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Unless you use the A40 approved additive package in an approved base stock, you're not going to be able to get A40 approval, so are no plans for any Driven oil to get Porsche approval. They are still recommending an A40 oil, so Motul 8100 X-Cess 5w40 is one of the oils I would recommend for a vehicle under warranty and just do more frequent oil changes. I'll just tell you what I do in my current CPO Mercedes, like what I did with my previous CPO Macan, which both are direct injected. I run DI40 and just do used oil analysis and do oil changes at half the factory interval. The proof is in the UOA. The Mercedes fill is $3.49 retail in Chicago per quart. I don't want that swill in my engine!

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How often do you run UOA? I realize you're not in the same situation as most of us. ;-)

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The Macan I did every oil change as we've been running DI40 well before it was commercially available, just like we did with DT40. I no longer have the Macan, but the engine was in tip top shape for it's next owner. I'm not super concerned about the Mercedes based on my prior experience with DI in other engines, so I'm not testing it every oil change.

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Thank you for your advice. I will use the Motul you recommend when its due at the dealership. From what I understand most dealers will use customer oil as long as its Porsche approved and I would like to have the dealer documentation of the work. I would much prefer the DI40 as it seems to me the layman, a better lubricant. I have read some technical articles regarding moly (in the form of MoDTC) reacting with zinc under pressure forming glass like compounds that reduce friction in cylinder walls substantially. Kind of looks like the magic bullet of wear reduction. Unfortunately I haven't found any oil additives (and not sure I would trust if there were) that contain molybdenum dithiocarbamate. I'll have to wait until the CPO warranty is over before I switch. I only plan on putting a couple thousand miles a year on until then. Also, how do you get around the CPO requirements for the Mercedes? Does the DI40 meet them?

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There have been other threads on LM products. Ceratec boosts moly content approximately 300 ppm, but if you use Driven DI40 that puts you at 300 ppm without need for additives. DT40 has double and comes in at 600 ppm. The Mercedes dealership did not give me an grief with bringing my own oil. It only goes every 10k to the dealership for major service - intermediate service every 5k we do in our shop.

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I would be happy to use either JG oils but I don't need any issues with a warranty problem if Porsche wanted to get picky, no matter how unlikely that is. Unless the DT40 is Porsche appoved? If so I would, if not then the Motul would be my oil of choice. I think I would avoid the moly additives as I think they are likely to fall out of suspension, especially since this isn't a daily driver and won't protect as well as an oil with MoDTC added by the manufacturer.

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Charles, Earlier in the thread Jake said that when switching oils to DT-40 (street use) it's best to run some JG break in oil, then put in the DT-40. 1. There are a few different types of GB break in oil, which should I use? (2003 C2 w/108K miles) BR Break-In, Mineral, 15W50 BR Break-In, Mineral, 10W40, ZDDP Enhanced Racing Break-In BR, Mineral, 5W30 2. How many miles should I run the break in oil before switching to DT-40? Thanks!

/\you want to use the BR30 for about 300 miles for your flush. Then go to the DT40. This gives you peak performance from the Driven products sooner, because their additive packages fight others, especially Mobil's.

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All the Driven BR products are formulated the same. It's just a difference in viscosity. For the M96 engine, we use BR40, however if you're running the car in the winter in a colder climate, BR30 might be a better choice in that instance.

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I'm currently using Liqui Moly Leichtlauf High Tech 5w-40 & Ceratec. Still 300 miles on the break in oil?

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200-300 miles. That's what has been posted in the past from Jake.

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Seems weird to run a break-in oil in an engine w/108K on it.

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It's not about "breaking in" the motor. It's about getting the current residue oil out of the system, to minimize cross pollination, so the Driven can do it's job more efficiently and sooner.

I don't think any Joe Gibbs oils are Porsche approved for use in our engines. Porsche approval is shown by "A40" on the container. A40 is certain additives which as I understand includes no harm to catalytic converters.

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If you read the thread, you'd see that Charles already said this.

A40 has a fair similarity to the GM Doxes rating.. Mostly to prevent foaming of the oil.