First Gear Issues

I had my clutch replaced about 3k miles ago. Flywheel was fine. All good until the last few weeks when it started slipping in first gear. Even stalled it a few times getting it moving or pulling into the garage. Also noticed a significant decrease in acceleration just in first gear. Otherwise, shifting is fine 2-6. Scheduled to take it back to my Indy next week, but wanted to get input from you guys before I take it in. Clutch, flywheel or tranny? Thanks!

From a full stop, put it in second, give the engine some revs and take off. If the clutch is slipping you will know. Always machine the flywheel when replacing the clutch. 3K is very low mileage for a clutch to go bad again, so something is wrong with the install. Not the tranny, it is mechanical and will not "slip". Probably glazing on your flywheel.

First is usually the last gear that it slips in. Maybe the slave cylinder or throw out fork is sticking? If it is slipping that bad the Dual mass flywheel is probably toasty. Sometimes it is hard to get shops to resurface a DMS flywheel. I had to shop around to get my first one done and it worked out fine. I replaced it ~20k miles later when I replaced the IMSB with the ceramic one.

If it is the flywheel, should that have been addressed when the clutch was done 7 months ago?

By slipping, you mean that RPM increases without a corresponding increase in output at the wheels, right? Seems odd that you'd be more likely to stall when first is slipping. Only you and the shop know whether the flywheel should have been addressed when your clutch was replaced. Mine was resurfaced, but I was showing normal slippage (some 3rd, mostly 4th and 5th gear under acceleration), rather than the really odd first-gear slipping you're describing. What do you mean by "decrease in acceleration?"

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Thanks 5CHN3LL. Basically trouble getting the car moving in first. Heavy on the gas to keep from stalling, then not the usual pull until I get to 2nd...then it's all good from there. Came out of nowhere. Like I said, actually stalled it a few times which hasn't happened since I was 16 (a looong time ago). Yes, RPMs are noticeably higher under initial acceleration without the normal speed I am used too.

How does the clutch "feel"? I am asking because this could be any number of things: clutch slave cylinder sticking, bad release bearing, clutch fork is bad, clutch is bad, glazing on the flywheel. The point being this isn't going to go away and the only solution is to have the tranny pulled so all of this can be checked. For the shop that did the original work...what did they do (replace)? And will they fix it under warranty? What type of clutch did they install..OE?

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Old clutch was replaced with an OE clutch and it feels normal except it just feels like it's not catching in first gear to get moving...almost as if the pedal needs a few more inches at the top is the best way to describe it. Taking it in on Monday.

Don't drive it anymore or you can wipe out the disk. Get someone that knows a bit more about cars and have them test it and get their oppinion on it because your description is difficult to understand.

Sorry but you cant do (not recommended by LUK) this on the DMF. You must replace it which should have been done anyway when the clutch was replaced. Not sure of your mileage but every clutch related part should have been replaced. Gonzo, your description sounds odd. Does everything work fine if cars on a lift? Can you post a vid of whats going on?

have the installer road test it...do not drive it until they do

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Really weird. Sorry, don't have a lift and I'm not sure a video would provide any more info. I'm going to keep it in the garage this weekend and take it in Monday to the shop that did the clutch and have them look at everything. If it is a flywheel issue I believe that should have been addressed when the clutch/IMS was done a short time ago. Will report back when I know more. Thanks everyone as usual!

Yea, best is to take it back to the shop. Whatever it is, I'm pretty sure they need to open up the transmission to find out more as obviously your clutch is slipping and that can't be a shift linkage or external problem.

You know, it is possible to install the clutch disc backwards but Im not sure what symptoms that would cause. At this point we're all WAG'ing. We would really like to see and/or hear whats going on. Gonzo, can you smell the typical slipping, burnt clutch smell?

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No clutch smell. No sound. Just sloppy in first gear. I agree, not much to go on. I should know more Monday afternoon. Thanks again. BTW KK...I kinda missed you while you were gone!

Have you checked under the car to see if either of the shifter cables has come out of the bracket on the transmission? That can cause wonky shifting.

I had the same symptom. I would release the clucth slowly and normally the car should start rolling but instead the rpm would just drop and want to stall if I didn't give it gas. It's as if my sweet spot of engagement was completely gone. This would happen here and there and would return to normal.... Last week my pressure plate failed and I just installed a new clutch kit. I feel like it was related.

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Interesting. That is what I am experiencing too.

__________________ Thats true too. Many (including me) use safety wire to help secure them. Its odd there is no burnt smell if its really slipping. It really sounds like something went wrong inside. I would want to verify what they actually replaced. Now we all have to know. Please update what happens.

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"Can't do" and "not recommended" are not the same thing. My indy resurfaced my DMF in-house when they did my clutch several thousand miles ago. If I made parts for Porsches, I'd recommend against reusing the existing parts as well.

I think it's an internal problem related to the pressure plate. It would really annoy me, but I lived with it for a while as it was only occuring on and off. I drove it until something serious happened (pressure plate completely failed and wouldn't engage gears with the engine running). New clutch kit solved that.... just a shame cause my clutch wasn't worn out at all and i've been driving manuals all my life. Just a flow in design I guess, a fluke really.

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Forgive my mechanical ineptitude, but is a new pressure plate normally included when installing a new clutch or is it similar to the flywheel...only if necessary?

Gonzo, a basic kit is usually the clutch disc, release bearing, and pressure plate. Ideally they should check and replace if needed; guide tube, clutch release lever, ball pin, sealing washer, retainer, clutch slave cylinder, and DM flywheel. Many of these things should be changed "while in there" because of the age of our cars. I would ask for a list.

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I just pulled the invoice (attached) and they replaced the pressure plate and release bearing and resurfaced the flywheel. My Indy has been great so I am sure they will give everything a good look see on Monday. Have a great weekend and thanks for the help. Yes they use Mobil 1 and yes it is 15w-50. I just know someone will see that and this will turn into an oil thread. Yes I had the IMS replaced with the clutch because it is a wear item. I just know this will turn into an IMS thread. BTW KK...please go for a nice, extended 2 block drive this weekend

Did they find the problem yet? There are many more clutch system potential wear items depending on mileage/use. Good idea. Higher viscosity is recommended, especially for hot climates like yours. A great idea. It should be replaced with the clutch! Sounds like you got it all covered. Hopefully they will find the problem soon.

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I was going to drop it off this morning but got busy. Going to take it in Wednesday. I will keep you posted. Thanks again!

Finally got the car to my Indy this morning. Preliminary report is a bad clutch pedal sensor but the owner was out today and wants to confirm diagnosis. Should have details by mid morning. Will update tomorrow. Still could be the pressure plate.

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Clutch pedal sensor? I guess the ECU runs a different map when the clutch is disengaged. Probably runs a lot leaner for emissions purposes and richens up when the car is pulling away. I could see this being the problem. It'll be a nice cheap fix if it is (should be anyway). Please update this thread when its all sorted out.

Glad to hear you are having it addressed. I think your "slipping" description but no burnt smell is what threw us off. Interesting read on the delay switch and what it does:

Interesting. I have experienced the retarded timing on take-off two or three times and assumed it was PSM.

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This is exactly what I thought when I read the first line of the thread. In other cars the symptom is EXACTLY as described. My bet is on the disc having been put on backwards. Also, fyi, when my clutch was replaced about 18 months ago, the flywheel was replaced at the same time.......dealer job.

Update...Got the car back today. New clutch sensor and all seems good, but there are extenuating circumstances that need to be disclosed. Indy noted some after market wiring in the same harness as clutch sensor. Soft codes noted so not sure if the problem is actually related to the sensor or to the other wiring. Easier and cheaper to replace the sensor than to continue to investigate. After market wiring could be from my Double Din install (doubtful) or from a previous owner mod (radar dector, iPod charger...who knows but more likely). Also noted cracked coils. So the problem could also have been power related, ie, not getting the normal RPM's that I am used to to get the car moving. Something only I may be able to notice. Indy and 3 other techs drove the car but didn't notice anything wrong with the clutch but the owner did think it was sluggish, so changed the coils too. Again, they needed replacing and why spend labor on that diagnosis. So, could be failing clutch sensor. Could be aftermarket wiring throwing codes for failing clutch sensor. Could have been the coils. Still could be something else. If I continue to notice these issues I will insist they revisit the entire clutch assembly, but for now, things seem to be fine. Thanks all!

Well thats certainly good news. Glad you got it sorted

How much was the clutch sensor? and does anyone have a DIY? Also, are you sure its called a clutch sensor and not a clutch interlock switch?

The switch inquestion is #17 here http://www.autoatlanta.com/porsche-p...section=702-00 The way it works is the switch engages as soon as the clutch pedal is pressed and its purpose is to tell the DME so the DME will retard the timing to soften the shock when the clutch engages at the friction point. The interlock switch is #16 which prevents the starter from being activated as long as the clutch pedal is not all the way down. The switch engages when the pedal is almost all the way down. You will hear a slight click.

I'll be changing both switches out to play it safe...Even after a new clutch I'm experiencing the same thing that the OP is describing. OP - Which switch did your dealer change that fixed the issue?

Wow - I really can't believe that clutch switch caused 3 MAJOR problems. 1. It would have starting issues. Key would go into ignition and I'd twist and still nothing. I'd have to hold there until it would start. 2. Lack of power as mentioned by the OP (Sluggish), and variocam wouldn't engage later then usual. Car didn't even sound the same. 3. The first gear issue of loosing that sweet spot and all shifts as a matter of fact felt a bit off in terms of engagement. I bought the part for 25$ at the dealer and replaced it in 10 min. Literally the best fix I have ever done on a car.

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Clutch switch, OEM. Same part # that Ahsai posted. Makes you wonder how many new clutch kits get installed rather than replacing a $22 part. So far so good here.