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YOUR RESEARCHMetallic Chunks in Oil
Reported or suspected cause
dual row version
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No successful repair reported for this finding.
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Reported cause · Original poster
Fast forward a couple weeks, and I have the trans out with new parts on in the garage including clutch kit, flywheel, RMS, and a few other minor things.When I took everything apart, I studied the IMS bearing flange and confirmed it was the dual row version so it supposedly has a much lower failure rate.
Leading evidence: 'dual row version' (1 discussions report identifying this cause; no attributable repair resolution). Across 1 matching discussions, the most frequently mentioned possible cause is 'dual row version' (1 discussions; 1 report identifying it and 0 suggest it). The most frequently discussed action is 'Check during ppi' (1 discussions). For that action, 0 discussions report a resolution and 0 report an unsuccessful attempt. No action has an explicit, attributable resolution report under the current rules. These are forum reports and suggestions, not a confirmed diagnosis.
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Reported cause
It is a reasonable inference to draw that the damage was caused by the missing filter, and that the filter went missing at the lube place.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed · Original poster
In the comments section it reads "Oil and filter changed." I didn't think to fact check that until now.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
I have a 5 chain motor(1999), and mine needed to be replaced right around 80,000 miles, after finding these brown bits of plastic in the bottom of my sump tray.
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Suspected cause
It's pretty hard to see what the part is there, but it's probably a piece of aluminum, which is normal.
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Suggestion · Original poster
Hopefully I can get some decent results even though I scooped the sample from the catch pan (which was clean) and the engine hadn't been run prior to draining the oil.
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Suggestion · Original poster
There's the seller who really doesn't appear to be knowledgeable about cars in general, the seller who sold him the car, and the Meineke shop who did an oil change about 3K miles ago.
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dual row version
No successful repair reported for this finding.
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0
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Reported cause · Original poster
Fast forward a couple weeks, and I have the trans out with new parts on in the garage including clutch kit, flywheel, RMS, and a few other minor things.When I took everything apart, I studied the IMS bearing flange and confirmed it was the dual row version so it supposedly has a much lower failure rate.
Counts describe captured discussions, not unique people or a diagnosis. Author identities are not reliably stored. Exact duplicate evidence is counted once across matching discussions; one discussion counts at most once per action/state. Multiple repairs reported together remain a combination. Suggestions and failed attempts do not establish a fix. Matches cover whole discussions and can include related faults, model variants and incomplete threads.
81 eligible posts · 0 unverified posts · 1 discussions match the subject in their title or opening post.
Rennlist: 1 discussions
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Hey guys,
Backstory with potentially relevant details
I'm a new 996 owner but I've done a good amount of research before buying one. I ended up buying a 2001 Carrera 4 with 88K miles. When I went to go for a test drive, I could feel the clutch slipping quite often but factored that into the price and ended up buying it. It was a couple of states away so I couldn't drive home like that. I went to drive it to a relative's place about an hour away so I could ship it from there. On the way, the clutch started slipping more and more on the highway. I knew it wasn't going to make it so I pulled off the highway on the nearest exit. I BARELY made it... and by that I mean the car had no drive and I coasted into a gas station. The clutch was smoking and the car threw a couple CELs. I read them and they were various cylinder misfires. I thought that was odd so I cleared the codes, started the car and nothing came back at idle. From there, I shut it down and towed it to my relative's house so it could be shipped from there.
Fast forward a couple weeks, and I have the trans out with new parts on in the garage including clutch kit, flywheel, RMS, and a few other minor things.When I took everything apart, I studied the IMS bearing flange and confirmed it was the dual row version so it supposedly has a much lower failure rate. I decided I would get a magnetic oil plug and just keep an eye on it. Before I put the trans back in for good, I decided I better check the oil for particles. I figured I might as well check now rather than find a problem when the trans is back in.
The problem
What I found when I drained the oil surprised me... in more ways than one... and none of them were good surprise. I drained the oil into a clean pan. The filter housing is where the surprises were. Before I even touched it, I noticed oil was leaking from the filter housing. I took it off and noticed there was no o-ring. Okay not a big deal I guess... Next I went to remove the filter and there was no filter! WTH! The guy I bought it from wasn't very hands-on and said he took it to a lube tech place (I forgot which one) to get the oil changed. I was planning on cutting open the filter to inspect it for metal flakes. In the bottom of the filter housing, I noticed some metal flakes. I thought, "Oh crap, I guess I'll do the IMS too while I'm in here." I stuck a strong magnet in to retrieve the flakes and the magnet didn't grab anything. I then grabbed a tweezers and grabbed the largest flake I could see. I cleaned it up with alcohol. I didn't know if it looked coppery colored because of the oil or because that was its actual color. As it turns out, it is actually coppery colored.
So my big question is what the heck is this and how concerned should I be? (on a scale of 0 = run it to 10 = rebuild) I ruled out IMS failure since that bearing has magnetic materials that I would have been able to pick up with the magnet. I have seen coppery colored main bearings which concerns me. I would hate to see those go. One maybe important piece of info is that they were found on the bottom of the oil filter housing and could have potentially been there since break-in. I am going to send an oil sample in for oil analysis and get that analyzed as well.
So what are you guys thinking on this?
It's pretty hard to see what the part is there, but it's probably a piece of aluminum, which is normal. If you have copper glitter, that is not good, and it normally comes from the bearings that would be wiped. Hopefully it's not bad news for you, but I would drop the pan and see what you find. Best of luck!
Nice first post.
Only 51 known failure modes so glad you ruled out the IMSB.
Seriously. Get an oil report and take in for Cam Timing Devation and report.
Sorry for the bad news, but nothing good can come of this. It’s not normal for bits this big to be in the filter housing, especially if the oil has been circulating for some time without a filter. It would be a major mistake to just drop the sump and change the oil continue on.
On the topic of no filter, are you sure it’s just not stuck up in the engine like this:
Also, hard to tell from the pic if your chip is aluminum or brass/copper colored. Neither one is good. Glittery specks in the bottom of the filter are likely main bearing, con rod bearing, or thrust washer material.
Here’s a pic of what a failed con rod bearing looks like as seen in the filter housing:
How does yours compare?
Hoping for the best for you, good luck!
As others have posted, I think your first step is to send the oil out for analysis, as long as you're sure it hasn't been contaminated by another car's oil. Most guys here use Blackstone, The report will tell you the composition of the metal, which will help with next steps.
Not sure what else to tell you. Running without a filter probably makes any issue you have worse as metal particles that don't get picked up by the filter cycle through the engine. Does the guy you bought it off have a receipt from the oil change place? I'm not a lawyer, but they've got to have some responsibility for letting a car leave their shop without a filter.
Good luck!
Another reason I change my own oil.
I once took my car to a Jiffy Lube (not the P car) and had them rotate my tires while changing the oil. Told them to hand torque them and handed him the four way lug wrench...Heard the tech ask another how to use it and said he'd never seen one before
. Never again!
Thanks for all the insight and advice to far. I collected a sample of oil to be sent into Blackstone. That became part of my plan as soon as I discovered the flakes. Hopefully I can get some decent results even though I scooped the sample from the catch pan (which was clean) and the engine hadn't been run prior to draining the oil. I collected the sample within 10 mins of draining the oil so hopefully any metal that was suspended in the catch pan was still there. I will make a note of that when sending in the sample. While that is out, I will drop the sump and take a look around. I will definitely check to see if more flakes settled on the bottom of the pan. Coopduc, my oil filter housing didn't look like it had nearly the amount of debris as yours did. Holy Cow! I just saw a few shiny flakes and shiny dust at the bottom. That was reason enough for me to raise the alarm and start questioning things.
Copper colored anything is bad news as far as I know...
Unreal they removed the filter *and* O-ring, which is why I NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER
use those cheap/fast/sh*t oil change places and warn everyone I know to avoid them like the plague
BTW if you got the clutch off do yourself a favor and if your motor is ok, put an LN ceramic bearing in. why leave the stock one in place?
Here's my 2 cents.
i too use to send my samples out to blackstone. But after watching many videos and reading post it is obvious they do a great job telling you about the oils health but not the motors health. Its just the same as you wouldnt take you 911 to the corner shop because these cars are different and need someone who knows them. Please some very recent videos from Jake Raby @ Flat 6 innovations on youtube. Start here https://youtu.be/XlfaGbH66C4 You will learn that Jake is most likey the leading expert (he hates that terminology) in the USA in regards to the 996 engine as well as all Porsche engines. One forum member even picked up a car that had a catastrophic failure. Metal everywhere. He sent a sample and got a thumbs up from Blackstone.
Everything you wrote points to a very deceptive seller. I believe it was more of the seller found out a lot of bad things a sold the car quick. I would more concerned with the stuff that was cleaned up before you got it. At a BARE minimum i would be pulling the sump plate for a much more extensive inspection but most likely the damage is done and your in need of a complete rebuild. Further running will only cause the parts bill to go much higher. If it looks like the sump plate was recently removed then its without question you got screwed.
Hopefully jake @ flat 6 will see your thread and will jump in on his own. Otherwise you may want to PM him. He is very knowledgeable and his previous post have shown he is here to help.
A good alternative to Blackstone is Speed Diagnostix.
https://www.speediagnostix.com/
I have no affiliation with them and have not yet used them, but likely send my next sample to them.
Pull the sump plate... Its a 20 minute job. Post pics of the sump plate without cleaning it... Use some sunlight if possible to expose the metals that are suspended in the oil that remains in the plate. Sunlight does the best job of waking these wear metals up for a photo.
With these engines one way to reduce a rod knock is to remove the oil filter element. This opens the oil volume up by 30% and the higher volume of oil will remove the noises.. This is an old trick that shady dealers have figured out. In last week�s class here we disassembled an engine that had a failure occurring and also had no filter element.
Sounds like you got hosed.. It happens everyday with these cars, and we get the phone calls.
UOA tests for debris thats very small, less than 40 micron. Most analysis will not even detect debris larger than 40 micron.
Happy to help, but I won�t be on the forums this week, as I will be at Amelia Island supporting one of my engines that I built for the Revs Institute. I won�t be on the forums much at all, if any through spring. Taking lots of time off starting very soon. Submit a support ticket at
www.flat6innovations.com
and my team will help you.
Well I dropped the sump plate tonight and the situation is seemingly getting much worse. I don't have a lot of hope at this point for this engine. As shown in the photos below, there are metallic bits everywhere, including many large chunks. I grabbed the biggest chunk I could find and cleaned it up to see what color it is. It has a copper or brass color and the chip is huge! If it came from a bearing, I can only imagine there can't be much left of it. I'm guessing it's time to pronounce this one dead and send it in for a rebuild unless one of you can convince me there is still hope... not sure if there will every be hope in this one but if someone could comfort me for my loss that would be great too.
Sad to see this crap happen. If i were you it would take everything i had not to go punch the PO.
only thing i can say is do TON's of research when it comes to a rebuild. Once you have looked at every option, send it to flat 6.
I see at least 3 significant wear metals in those pics. Please don�t start it again.
Time to issue another Death Certificate. That makes 3 for the day.
Yup. Time for a full rebuild, I’ve seen worse that has been resurrected to see the road again. Biggest unknown at this point is the condition of the crankshaft. As far as I know, there is no regrind possible of either the mains or crank journals.
the upside is: if you take the experts advice and follow it through to completion, you could end up with an increased displacement, high horsepower, very reliable engine. If you have the wallet for it.
if the thought of putting 5 figure sums into a rebuild makes you weak in the knees, sell it as a roller and move on to look for another car.
Better days are ahead.
Thanks for the reply, Jake. I definitely won't be starting it after I saw what I just saw. Would there have been a way to detect this without draining the oil? Would a PPI have even found this?
As for the PO, I don't know what to think yet. I bought it privately and he only owned the car for barely over a year and I don't know if he was smart enough to pull something like this off. He clearly didn't know much about cars and I answered a few of his questions about this car. Maybe he was playing dumb but if he was, he was pretty convincing. I would guess that he bought it that way and drove it until it needed maintenance. There were other problems like brakes, janky door handle, and the brake wear sensor/wheel speed sensor harness was broken on the left front which threw 3 dash lights. At least that was a straight forward diagnosis and fix for me.
A good PPI would definitely caught this, inspecting the oil filter and dropping the sump are fairly standard procedures by Porsche specialists.
i know Jake’s includes much, much more than most.
Wow...sorry about this....sounds like a bunch of shady characters are in the history of this car.
Jake, thanks for letting us know about the filter trick...that is yet another thing to check during ppi for sure.
This sucks... Its happening all the time.
You simply have to do a PPI, and that PPI has to be semi- invasive. A proper PPI would have done exactly what the purchaser did, then the purchaser would not have purchased the vehicle..
People get too damn anxious, and they end up being in a hurry to get ripped off.
Therd is no way he was driving around and didn�t realize he had problems. Way too much to make the lack of a filter coincidence, even the worst oil change place would know it needs a filter put in the housing. I personally would try to pursue this legally.
Terrible. This is my fear and one of the reasons, I went to GA for the class. I feel like I could handle this if I had too. I ordered a lot of parts recently to avoid it too. I�m hoping to do a performance rebuild over time and on my terms. I love both my 996 and 986 though too much to part ways with them.
Thanks guys for the condolences. I'm looking into all options to rebuild, buy a new M96, sell, etc. My first 996 ownership has been nothing but trouble so far but I have confidence there will be brighter days ahead! Hopefully I can get this sorted sooner rather than later.
I don't know if this is a reliable option and what I could reasonably expect in return. If it were a dealer, I would be a little more confident they would try to make it right.
Might be worth getting the engine apart and asses the damage , it's toast anyway, if the crank isn't damaged there might be hope in a rebuild if it's not too far gone , what do others think??
I would atleast consult an attorney. There may be a time frame on this so you may want to act fast. Who knows, maybe just a threatening letter from a lawyer to the PO maybe net some cash back or reverse the deal. Couldnt hurt to ask.
Terrible story , worst case . I am on my 9th car , never had a major issue . Sounds like you are dealing with it well . Best of luck ! My advice would be a good take out replacement motor ..
Its hard to think people out there would be this shady and sell a car they knew was heading towards catastrophic failure. I have to lean towards the seller had no idea, being that close to failure (sounds like it didn't even last hours) he would be taking a gamble every time he let someone test drive it. Sounds like a case of really poor timing. I am hoping the buyer got this at a price point that a rebuild will not put him completely upside down.
There has to be some lawyers on this forum, how would one prove this guy knew there was an issue to go after legally? Seems like you would need him to admit he knew there was an issue.
I’m no lawyer, but it seems to me that the fact that the oil filter was missing indicates there gross negligence and/or intent to deceive. If it was purchased from a dealer I think there would be some recourse in that many states have laws allowing 3 days to negate the deal if you feel the car was not represented accurately. Not sure if this applies to private transactions.
www.theconsumerlawgroup.com/faqs/cancelling-a-new-car-purchase-agreement-with-a-dealership.cfm
Unfortunately, I know of a case many years ago where a friend bought an engine for a classic car, but it turned out that the engine size was never originally delivered in the model car he had. The seller told him it was, and the buyer was doing a classic car restoration, so originality was important. When it was discovered, and the seller refused to accept a return, the buyer took him to small claims court. Unfortunately, the judge ruled in favor of the seller, “caveat emptor”, he said the buyer was responsible for making sure the engine was correct for his application. Not saying this situation applies to you.
again, best of luck for a good outcome.
Well I think it's pretty likely there is some foul play here and the filter was removed to quiet down a rod knock as Jake suggested. One of the PO's might have just punched his ticket to hell or upset his Karma or whatever you believe in.
As far as who is to blame for this, it's a tough one. There's the seller who really doesn't appear to be knowledgeable about cars in general, the seller who sold him the car, and the Meineke shop who did an oil change about 3K miles ago.
I will probably call the Meineke shop and see if they will share any records of the oil change if they have any. Their sticker is in the upper left of the windshield. If they have a record of the customer requesting no filter, then I can conclude the PO knew about the issue. If they don't have record of that, the filter was either forgotten (again, WTH) or the car was tampered with after the oil change. If they noted that the car came in with no filter, I can start pointing the finger at the guy who sold it to the seller.
I can maybe ask the seller who he bought the car from (somewhere in FL according to carfax) but trying to pin any blame on them is probably going to be much tougher.
In the end, I don't think I have much of a chance of actually receiving any compensation. Too many players involved. It just might cause a little more hair pulling than I already did last night when my engine received the death certificate.
OP, I used to work for a quick oil change chain. It was a big one. This kind of case with them would not be contested at all. They'd make a reasonable settlement offer and move on. You being the next owner down the line may be an issue but with the oil change being only 3k miles ago you may be good to go. I'm not an attorney and this does not constitute legal advice. Just saying it may be worth a shot.
Holy crap, this is getting to be some story. I don't think any oil / muffler place is going to let a car leave without a filter even if requested by the customer. They may agree not to change it, but if someone requested no filter to be installed, they would most likely refuse the business or fill it up with oil and put on the old filter. I think that leaves you with two scenarios: the PO removed the filter or Meineke forgot to put the filter on. You've said your PO wasn't mechanically inclined, plus he took it to goddamn Meineke to have the oil change done. I doubt he removed the filter after he took it to them. Remember that a new O ring comes with the new filter, and in your case it was missing. Why remove the filter, and the O ring if you just want the increased oil flow?
This sounds to me like Meineke removed the old filter and O ring, then forgot to put the o ring and filter back on and let the car leave. That, or some dumb tech kid took the filter off and somehow made it un-reusable before he realized they didn't have a replacement so he just put the filter case back on and hoped you'd come back in when he wasn't there. I have worked for one of these lube places, and believe me they do not care about your car, they only car about avoiding an issue. As other have said, I'd get a lawyer. These filters are not common, and a court case may find out that this particular Meineke never had any in stock.
Im no lawyer but play one on tv.
At this point without a witness or time stamped video pulling the filter housing its OP word against Meineke's that no filter was in place.
<NOT LEGAL ADVICE>
Sure, but the evidence of the seller that he took it to Meineke and it was OK, and the OPs evidence that the filter and ring were gone + engine damage. It is a reasonable inference to draw that the damage was caused by the missing filter, and that the filter went missing at the lube place. </END NOT LEGAL ADVICE>
I would get a lawyer.
Meinke isn't going to admit anything about anything to do with anything. But, I guess for due diligence. There is just no way a commercial oil change shop would let a car go out the door with no filter cartridge installed. They did the oil and filter change, sent him on his way, he heard something on that drive, or a later drive, found out it was a 10 min job to remove the filter, and make the noise lessen, then put the car up for sale. I don't buy the 'I am too stupid' act from the seller, and I doubt a local judge would either. I wish there was a third party present when you removed the filter housing, but we deal with what we have.
Stop talking to people, and go file a court claim. Once you see the cost of your short block, plus R&R, plus swap and ancillary costs, I'd just serve the seller with that, and deal with it all in front of a judge/JP. Keep everything, and use it as exhibits in court. The court typically loves lots of exhibits that show malfeasance.
Sorry you started out this way. A caution for all who read this and go jump on a deal.
The cooper came from the main or the connecting rod bearings. Mine looked like that when the couple of the main bearings were coming apart. If the engine hasn't developed a rod knock yet then there is a good chance the crankshaft and the con rods are is still salvageable. I have a feeling this will be ugly when the rest of the engine is torn down.
How can he prove it was the oil change shop? Anyone could have removed the filter after the car left the shop. Most of the damage was there before the filter went missing.
First of all, sorry for your situation. Feels like a gut punch doesn't it? Nothing worse than buying your dream car only to watch it turn into your worst nightmare. Hindsight is 20/20 and so I won't beat the "you should've had a PPI done on this car" drum, but I would say that trying to place blame on the previous owner(s) is a dead-end road. This was a used private sell and it's "buyer beware" plain and simple. It's the buyer's responsibility to get the car checked out and once the car was paid for and bill of sale handed to you, it's yours warts and all. Trying to prove fraud is going to be almost impossible with a car of this age and with multiple owners. And, the fact that you've had the car in your possession and have worked on it by removing the sump hurts any chance of compensation related to the repercussion.
My advice is to plan to either one - have the car sent to a respected shop like Flat 6 Innovations or Two - be prepared to sell it as a roller and move on with life. Either one is going to hurt your wallet. Sorry.
Not even by accident? When I worked for a knock-off Jiffy Lube place back in high school, we let two cars (that I remember, its been a while) start up without oil in the crankcase. They didn't run long obviously. Both times, the person driving them away asked the kid down in the pit whether there was "oil in this one" and both times the kid in the pit thought he meant another car. Neither time was I responsible, since as a high school kid I was relegated to doing the interior vacuuming, which was disgusting on multiple levels. Not on purpose, sure, but I don't think you can rule out accident.
"Proof" is a funny concept. Not to bore you with the burden of proof, but this isn't a murder case, and the proof required for a civil trial can be quite low. Based on his story, there is enough here to pin it on the oil change shop.
Most lawyers will give you 30 minutes of their time for free. If it was me, I would talk to one. Many jurisdictions have laws where even private sales have to be "fit for purpose". I would argue that a car sold without an oil filter isn't.
Anywho, none of this should be considered legal advice, and under no circumstances should you try to put a dollar in my pocket. Seriously, I don't want your grubby hands on my suit.
Meineke wont roll over.
Its your word against theirs. Like others have said likely much of this damage was done done long before the filter incident.
All said, still sorry this happened to you.
Thanks for posting. Its a good lesson for all newbies to P car world.
The smaller piece that is next to the penny looks like it could be a brown piece of plastic. If that's the case, it's from the timing chain tensioners. From what I've learned, those are a common failure point. I know the newer replacement tensioners are a different color, but the dark brown ones are the original. I have a 5 chain motor(1999), and mine needed to be replaced right around 80,000 miles, after finding these brown bits of plastic in the bottom of my sump tray. I also found some aluminum shavings in the bottom of the Sump. From what I've researched, these could be from when the block was cast, and were not cleaned up from the factory. After it was all put back together, I've had no strange debris in my oil. The copper colored bit of metal I haven't seen before. I know that sinking feeling when something like this is found, but I'd definitely tear it down before I wrote off the motor. I wish you luck.
sorry but I call BS on this post: I worked at a hurry lube and the oil was always added from the top, not the kid in the pit, as a matter of fact the guy starting the car was the guy that put the oil in.
We would never forget to put a filter in a car btw. What kind of bonehead would bring a Porsche to a Jiffy Lube anyway.
I didn't read the whole thread but it is obvious the seller knew the engine was cooked and sold it without declaring.
To Strathcona: if you buy a car in Canada as is no warranty then the engine is found to have been blown I don't think you have any recourse. That is why Buyer Beware.
Karma will get this seller.
Good for you, but we did. Not that I'm proud of it. And the guy driving it out may have said, "is this one ready" or whatever, and the pit guy answered. It was a long time ago. My point is that generally in these shops more than one person works on the car. I don't think you can eliminate error in not putting in a filter.
Exactly! That's my thoughts entirely. Never take a car like a Porsche to a quick lube place... never!!! Take it to Porsche or take to respected Porsche indy or... do the oil change yourself, but never never never take it one of those quick lub places.
Sorry Mike, my language may have been harsh...lol
At 15 I was the kid in the pit....I did 90 oil changes in one day once.
one thought is did this car even have its oil changed at meinekes? is there an invoice or just the sticker? I think the seller was doing a great acting and setup job. No question he knew he was screwing the buyer.
I agree with Raby, the OP got hosed from the owner, but trying to get a buy back will be a stretch. Having to prove fraud in this case would be extremely hard too. I wonder if the OP signed a bill of sale with the as-is where-is wording in it? If so, those would be the final nails in his coffin.
The carfax report shows the car was at Meineke in May 2018. In the comments section it reads "Oil and filter changed." I didn't think to fact check that until now. At this point everything previously taken as fact should be scrutinized.
I'd start with a letter from an attorney to the seller...Do not wait on this! The seller can deal with the company that did the oil change on his own dime!
I repeat: Meinke isn't going to admit anything about anything to anything. Accident, on purpose, I'd be amazed if they even admit working on the car, even with detailed records, and video proof. Whatev...
What you NEEDED(past tense) is third party proof of no oil filter when you took the housing off. Absent that, it's a huge frigging rat-hole.
However, I proceed from some history with this. I happened to buy a truck and camper long ago from a less than honorable guy that had hidden damage to the transmission. I didn't even get 30 miles on it before it failed. I did sue, I was successful, and after almost 10 months, I finally collected from the guy. This was a CA case, and each state is different. But - for the cost of a filing fee, it's a nice Trump card to have.
This post has gotten off topic and i dont want to continue to do it but feel i should point some things out being in the mechanic bussiness. These are some general statements and are not the case in every situation.
Most chains and decent size shops have a lot of procedures in place to protect themselfs from lawsuits and deceptive customer. Customer are a-holes and attempt to burn shops for free repairs. Several shops have camera systems so they can review footage to show oil being drained, filters changed, and oil added. Some shops also require sign offs from the employee that they have done every step and they must write down the amount of oil added and the oil filter number. The shop i work at now requires the box top to be torn off and stapled to the work order, amount of oil added, drain plug torque and wheel torque. These procedure are not only in place to make sure we don't make a mistake but also as evidence needed to prove in court that we did our jobs. I have been to court as management and won cases due to these procedure. We never lost a case because when we messed up it was obvious and we took ownership by either fixing it or going thru our insurance company. I have been wrenching over 20 years and have seen plenty of tech make mistakes. I have also seen cars get towed in when it was obvious the customer obviously intentionally damaged the car. I agree the chances of a shop not installing an oil filter and o ring intentionally is almost non exsistant. Truthfully i cant see it even being possible for the car to run for a lengthy amount of time without the o ring. It should have been dumping oil out.
None of this really matters regardless because for several reasons. The car has changed ownership and the current owner could/would not be able to prove no one has touched the car since. 3k miles has also passed which adds to the gap of responsibility.
what matters is this poor guy got screwed. By whom, no one will ever know. I believe 100% that the previous owner knew something. At a bare minimum the PO sold it knowing it had a bad clutch (which he didn't disclose) and a bad oil leak. He either knew it all or some. Either way this poor guy got the shaft.
Terrible story getting worse. The shop or the PO did a lot that was shady, that is for sure. I�d take them both to small claims court and you can see who the judge believes.
Not all shops are good, careful, follow procedures or even have them. That is certain too. It�s really worthwhile to do routine maintenance yourself and learn as much as possible. Knowledge allows you to find a quality mechanic for things you can�t or don�t want to do.
The only person at these types of shops making money are the owners / share holders. And you can be damn sure they want the cheapest parts and materials used for your repair and they want them installed as quickly as possible. Anyone telling you different is 1) a liar or 2) they are a great reputable shop doing quality work and making way less profit than most people think. Your job is to find #2 and recognize it when you see it. Even a chain shop franchise can be great, but it is rare. Most guys that really do it right will eventually hang up their own sign.
I stopped doing car work as a 2nd job when I got screwed by the customer. His wife thought a full day labor and machine shop time to true heads was worth parts and dinner at the yellow arches.
Wow, sorry to see this. I bought my 996 in September 2018 and dropped the sump cover and found parts of one of the timing chains. Jake and Flat6 were able to fix me up, replacing the chains and a lot of external (to the engine) wear items (water pump, clutch, AOS, IMSB, etc.) for low 5 figures. Since it wasn't a full engine rebuild and I'm 60 miles from the shop, Jake was gracious enough to sneak me into his schedule. Fortunately, with Jake's help I was able to avert a major disaster.
After my initial experiences with Flat6, I was so impressed with them that I took the M96 engine classes which were awesome learning experiences from the foremost experts on these engines.
Based on every experience I've had with Jake, I would trust everything he's told you above and be thankful that he contributes his priceless information to those of us on this forum.
I was also a kid that worked at a quick lube. We averaged about 140 cars per day. In our process, the person that drove the car in, vacuummed, did tire pressure, and windows was not the same person that put oil in the car. We destroyed 4-5 engines per year by doing stupid stuff like: double filling the oil (came out of a gun). Forgetting to put oil in all together, not making sure the gasket was removed oil filter, and having a double gasket blow out, etc., etc., etc.
Still, our failure rate was pretty low, but idiot kids trying to get a car done in 10 minutes so maybe they can have a bite of a microwave pizza between cars will make mistakes.
Thanks, Sam.. You were a very lucky individual to pull the sump plate, and find that debris! That was a classic �save�!
We just had another similar report with another 996 yesterday.. Except the poor guy got his car with a bank 1 996 block half (3.4L), and a bank 2 986S (3.2) Block half. This gave him 93mm cylinders on one side, and 96mm on the other.. A bit of a 986/996 hybrid. He had the car 2 days and had misfires from bank 2, as the chamber filling was down due to the 93mm cylinders being fitted. The seller had blown the bulb in the check engine light....
I know all of their tricks.. We�ve seen them all. I plan a Rennvision video series to show some of these, as well as how to do my version of a PPI. This PPI video will besomething we will use Amazon Video to share, as it will be one of our paid videos.
You can�t be too careful buying these cars.. A PPI from someone who has internal engine experience is a simple must... It has to happen.
Another trick is oil filter change the day before you p u for PPI.
Drop the plate!
Get Cam Chain Timing Dev.
Buy from a PCA long time good guy member and never ever from a flipper.
This just blows my mind !!!! They could make more money by being legit. It's like the guy who will climb a telephone pole to tell a lie, when he could stand on the ground and tell the truth !!
When you say this isn't the first time you've seen this, I'm guessing you're talking about the CEL sabotage or have you seen these franken-blocks more than once?
This sucks big time man, I would at least attempt to get a partial refund from the previous owner and I mean $6k or more.... How much did you pay for it?
Good point, I think a lot of owners like the idea of a oil change just before they pick up the car so they get maximum mileage to the next oil change.
Maybe people should insist on the seller not change the oil till the PPI has been done?
Bill
This is a source reference. Confirm exact model applicability in the original material.
