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YOUR RESEARCHAdvice for Moving On from a 02 C4S Blown Engine
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Use )
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Cost of replacement engine is $8k (used) that I bought (I was lucky to get a matching age transmission as well as these can be very difficult to rebuild....and expensive).
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Yeah, putting another used engine in it will not cost you that much.
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Been there, done that - a $6k roller quickly becomes a $15k+ project by completion on the cheap end (used engine).
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Suggestion
Either scenario it is a ton of money to dump into an almost 20 year old car that is relatively easy to replace for less money than you�d spend to rebuild it.
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Suggestion · Original poster
The junk/salvage place was getting sketchy (changing the price on me, trying to tell me car was a C2 based on the vin) so I talked my indy up a little higher when I went to tow it home yesterday.
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Suggestion
CA recently changed their rules on engine swaps - I could have gone the Chevy route if my timing had been better - and that is a much cheaper alternative.
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Fixing it now is still not a financial possibility.
Two years ago I bought my 02 C4S. 2 months later I learned I had a scored cylinder. I didn't have the money to fix it then. So I drove it. My C4S and I still had a great time over the past 22 months - daily driver, running the kids around time, short family trips, all while consuming 1 qt a week of oil. Alas all that ended last Thursday when the clock struck midnight on my cinderella, and just after down shifting to merge into traffic I hit the gas, heard something metallic bang, and the engine turned off. Coasted to a stop in the median. Wouldn't start, or even being to turn over. Towed to a local indy, and dropped the oil pan - there lay pieces of a cylinder and other misc parts. Fixing it now is still not a financial possibility. This day was coming, I just didn't want to see it so soon.
So I am considering all option to reduce my overall financial loss. Parting the car out is not an option for me. I don't have the garage or tools for it, nor the time really.
My indy is interested in buying it to possibly repair and sell, so I will explore that. I am also looking to hear from folks who have sold rollers, scrapped, sold for junk, or other options. I am in the Mid-Atlantic, Baltimore/DC region.
Thanks.
Update 1
:
Thanks for all the info everyone. I'm still sorting it through. Emotionally I'd love to keep the car, and given how much fun the car is I'm sure I can convince myself that $15k to have a 71k mile c4s is better than anything I'll get next. However, the numbers are hard to reconcile for me right now financially. As many of you have pointed out, used engines while cheaper aren't cheap, and it may work out or may not.
I purchased the car for $25k. That is playing a large role in my decision - lost investment to walk way from or pour more on top of this. I expect I'll pick a path later this week. I'll be sure to update this thread however it turns out.
Update 2
:
After exploring all my options, I'm selling the car. The indy it is at now is interested but he needs to be lower than I want to make himself a profit on selling the car. I'll be listing it shortly and will provide links. I'll directly follow up with those who already expressed an interest. I am also waiting on an offer from a junk/salvage company I expect to be > $7k based on initial discussions. Which based on what everyone is talking about wrt pricing on rollers, this may prove to be the winning approach. As much as I hate to see this car in this shape parted out, I have bills to pay.
Update 3
:
The junk/salvage place was getting sketchy (changing the price on me, trying to tell me car was a C2 based on the vin) so I talked my indy up a little higher when I went to tow it home yesterday. Sold it for $6k. It was the easiest path forward at a fair price given what most people seem to be willing to pay (throwing out those $2-3k lowball offers). I'll be out of the game for a while now, figuring out how to get back in. Likely a few years off given my little kids seems to only get more expensive with each year.
Update 4:
i stopped by th Indy who is buying it to drop off some misc back seat parts from when I had the car seats in. He had pulled the engine to prep for installing another. He showed me the two relatively big holes in ththe housing. Picts below.
Housing at Driver side, front cylinder
Housing at passenger side, front cylinder
I have to make him an offer still. I wanted to think it over first before giving him a number. Car has 71,000 miles, pretty nice cosmetically (minor dings). No options though, it is a basic C4S. black on black, original everything, except prior owner black powder coated the wheels.
I hope you find the way to get the most you can back from your loss.
This and similar stories always make me wonder what type of legal recourse is available for a PPI missing a large issue
Been there, done that - a $6k roller quickly becomes a $15k+ project by completion on the cheap end (used engine).
Don�t get suckered into thinking popping in a used engine is cheap. Assuming you can find one for reasonable money ($6k for high miles is probably as low as you�re going to get), you still have to get it installed and replace all the �while you were in there� parts (unless you do it yourself like I did). It takes a fair amount of time, and you�ll be in it for thousands in labor with an indy.
And you still end up with a used high mileage engine with unknown longevity - it might work out or might not, it is kind of a crapshoot with salvage parts.
That might all work out (I�m pullling for you), but don�t think of it as an inexpensive way to go.
Your C4S is a nice basis for a restoration project though. Don�t let the mechanic lowball you. There are plenty of people on this forum (myself included) that would pay a reasonable price for a good roller. Please let us know before you sell it lowball.
DAS - definitely keep the group informed of the latest developments. There may be some interesting options if you’re just looking to get out from under it or if you want to get into another 996. A swap plus cash could be an interesting option.
Here's the receipt from the PO of mine that blew a motor just to give you an idea. It includes ~3k of cabrio top work as well. But no 'while you're in there' stuff done to the engine. Just a straight swap in of a low mileage (38k) 3.4 motor.
The sum is a bit confusing at the bottom. TLDR total is ~17k, about 14k of that is the motor swap.
996.2 is going to cost more for a used engine.
Rebuild might be the same price.
If the engine case or heads need replacing (likely) then the 3.6 rebuild will cost more than the 3.4.
Yea, it is a little confusing since the owner paid deposits upfront before the job was done. The total cost for the engine swap was $24,052.30 which is a lot for a base mk1 Carrera. The owner must have really loved this car to put more in it that it's actually worth. Personally, I wouldn't have paid this much for used engine that is going to be prone to the same failure. Seems like they could have come out better with new factory engine. Wonder if the original engine could have been saved by Flat 6 Innovations?
OP, sorry to hear about your engine failure! I've sent you a PM.
Oh, I see that the engine was $10K.\
...and the total for the swap was $14K?
Still, that's a lot of money to still not have a fresh(larger displacement) engine with Nickies.
But for that price you would have to do most of the work yourself I guess.
Yea, it really is a confusing invoice. Now that I look at it a littler closer, it appears the owner paid $12,500.00 on 1/24/17 and then $4854.65 when he picked up the car on 2/14/17. That would be $17,354.65.
I think you may need to subtract the convertible top work. I didn't do the math, think that leaves you with around $12K for the engine and labor part of it.
Yeah that was a rough look. I mean it's a 10k motor with 2080 called out for labor on the install. Then you got coolant and oil + a clutch release bearing. And that's it. I'm guessing the PO just wanted it running normal and not a dollar more.
I'd highlight that when I got the car 2 years and 5k miles later I ended up pulling the motor and doing all the stuff that should have been done when it was swapped in - WP, Thermostat, RMS, IMS, AOS, cam adjuster pads, plugs, plug wells, coils. It was priced right though, and it's actually nice to have done it myself and know it was done right.
No Snakiness, just wanted to point out what he said before the whole forum thinks its 25k to swap a used engine lol. Text can be taken out of context sometimes, this was an example...
Had some free time, eh?
Careful about that IMSR - it's not an IMS bearing. Apparently it's the clutch release bearing. I was confused as well and called the shop to confirm. He laughed and said he wished he could do an IMS for that much. This was obviously confirmed when I did the IMS myself and swapped it for a LN dual row ceramic.
Hahaha... Yea, I wondered about that. When you called the shop manager, you should have told him to get a business manager to assist with his invoices. If I submitted an invoice like this, I would be audited.
Since I am going through my C4s resurrection as we speak, I thought I would shed some insight.
Cost of replacement engine is $8k (used) that I bought (I was lucky to get a matching age transmission as well as these can be very difficult to rebuild....and expensive). I did this because my original transmission, while perfectly functional has 170k of miles as does every other component in the car. This is just insurance.
Cost of getting it into 4.0l land with nickies all in will be around 21k-ish give a couple of more thousand.
Does not include the 1k motorsport AOS.
In my head to justify this expense, I thought long and hard and well, you're not going to find something that is like a c4s for $30k that has issues taken care of. I already owned the car and used it full and well when the motor went at 170k miles. I'm the original owner so I know its history. Outside of the engine going kaboom on the track it never has had an issue ever (surprisingly). I just took care of it as much as I could due to its duty cycle and it rewarded me.
Is the decision sane? I dunno, but I am guessing I'll be smiling carving canyons. It's the last of the truly analog cars without too much interference. And, where else will I find a yellow sunroof-less replacement? Yes, i'm emotionally engaged, but you should enjoy things while you can and extract pleasure. That's a worthwhile value proposition.
1st track event is scheduled mid july after 2 years collecting dust in the garage.
Onward, upward.
Sad to see people in this situation. What I tell people all the time is how much money will it take to replace your car with something that you'll enjoy as much. It's often the person I'm speaking to will realize that spending more on the car than market value that in the end will be bulletproof and a keeper is worth the investment.
Depending on how you value your time, it would be a good DIY project for someone. A used engine is a roll of the dice and if you are paying someone to do the work, you can easily be into the car more than what it's worth as a fix and flip.
6k is a bit steep with a grenaded engine (nothing left to rebuild). For comparison, I recently paid 6k for an 05 997 S with tons of upgrades and options with slightly higher mileage that was still running, but heavily scored, as a shop project. I've seen cars similar to this one sell for $3500-4500. Private party retail is currently $17-21k in good condition and high for excellent condition is $24k.
Maybe you've got an inside track that I don't but when I was looking for a C4S (coupe + manual) earlier there were absolutely
none
in the low 20s. If I found one around in the mid 20s, it usually was well into 100k miles and/or needed some significant work on top.
A good C4s is high 20's easy even early 30's... Please show me a decent C4s anywhere under 25K nationwide. Those are going to be JUNK.
I think everyone can agree that a 996 is a super good deal at the present moment, so I would look at what would you be able to replace it with and what the cost is to fill that want.
My 996 Targa is not a car I could replace for 15K more than I bought for. So I think if the engine were to blow, Common sense says the numbers dont work. But they do when you realize the replacement cost off the whole car with something that does the same things it sort of does.
Depends on your financial situation and comfort level. The lets just ballpark with a ~$10k replacement motor, ~$25k for a JR 4.0 upgrade, and let�s call it ~$5k roller value; this begs the question of whether you could get more car elsewhere for ~$40k. It is also dependent on having a spare $35k you are willing to throw at the project. The result will be amazing, no doubt. A 4.0 in a 996 with the internal upgrades will make a hell of a car. I think the original poster said replacing the engine isn�t an option though...
Thanks for all the info everyone. I'm still sorting it through. Emotionally I'd love to keep the car, and given how much fun the car is I'm sure I can convince myself that $15k to have a 71k mile c4s is better than anything I'll get next. However, the numbers are hard to reconcile for me right now financially. As many of you have pointed out, used engines while cheaper aren't cheap, and it may work out or may not.
I purchased the car for $25k. That is playing a large role in my decision - lost investment to walk way from or pour more on top of this. I expect I'll pick a path later this week. I'll be sure to update this thread however it turns out.
Heres how I see it... 25k and you have nothing, or 40k and you have a nice Porsche you can roll around in. IF its financially feasible for you I would take the latter. You can spend 15k on an engine, or a Accord, I would choose engine!
In some ways the $25k is sunk cost and doesn�t really play into the decision. Regardless...
He might get $5k for the roller. End of the day, if he sells the roller, he�s $5k ahead of where he sits today. So he�s out a total of $20k on the whole enchilada, and gets to start over fresh with $5k in his pocket toward the next car.
If he puts a new engine in, he forgoes the $5k return, and is also out whatever he needs to spend to make it right (let�s use that $35k number for fun). Now he�s out $60k total, I think. And he�s still driving a car worth $25-30k.
Is that right, or am I messing it up?
I think you are thinking of this right however, I am not sure where your 35K number is coming from.
DAS,....I might be interested in your car as a fathers/son DIY project. Most importantly however, I am sorry about your loss...hope you sort it out soon.
35k to make it right? Where is that number coming from? I am of a simple mind so bear with me but heres how I see it...
He bought the car for 25k. Lets call it 15k to replace the motor that would put his total investment into the car 40k. He's driving a Porsche worth lets say 25k when its all said and done. He's upside down 15k.
Now lets say he decides to sell as a roller for 5k. As you mentioned now his loss is 20k. Irrelevant of his next move (he could buy a 1k beater, or a 100k Porsche) his loss is more this way. I know he's out of pocket more money in scenario one on the original car, but he's only upside down 15k vs selling as a roller and losing 20k. Does that not translate?
I made that number up. The $35k came from $10k for a good used rebuildable engine and low $20k�s for a raby 3.8/4.0 rebuild, plus a couple of thousand for removal, reinstallation and incidentals.
In my experience ~$15k would get you a low mileage running used motor (installed) with the �while you�re in there� stuff (ims bearing, rms, aos, cluthch, flywheel, pressure plate, plugs, belt, hoses, filters, fluids). Might be fine, might not, �its a crapshoot� as Jake Raby says.
So, who knows, but the range of possibilites is in the low teens to mid thirties for getting it going again with varying levels of improvement and reliability updates.
Either scenario it is a ton of money to dump into an almost 20 year old car that is relatively easy to replace for less money than you�d spend to rebuild it.
If I were to �save� a 996 again myself, the shell was a keeper, and I had the money, it�d get the Raby engine. If it wasn�t a keeper, I�d replace it with another 996, a 997 or
maybe
a Cayman S.
Maybe I missed this in the conversation, but investing money in it now could be worthwhile if 996 prices go up. Every generation 911 has gone up in value - there's no reason to think this won't happen in 10 years or so.
When I was looking for another 911, I located quite a few 996 C4S in the low 20s that were in "great running condition" with well under 100K miles. The ones that were below the $20K mark, had serious issues that would need to be addressed, but I ended up getting a base Carrera. I really didn't want an AWD car. But I like the wide body Turbo look, but prefer the handling of a manual RWD car.
I agree... good one! hahaha Hagerty's just released the M96 based cars that would be worth investing into and they were all the highly exclusive GT2 and GT3 cars. I don't think they even recommended investing into the Turbo cars. The base M96 cars have too many stains on it's reputation to be cars that will soar up in value anytime soon.
As I said, if you find 996 C4S in the 17-21 in good condition, (or excelent in 24), please MP me with the link
(no kidding). Although, I think the quid here is what each one considers... "good condition"....
Bummer on your loss...
I went through the same and am now on the good end of it. Bought a CoPart wreck for $12k, another $3500 in misc parts and upgrades, I'm hoping to sell of the wreck for parts and make back half of that $12k so my total outlay will be closer to $10k.
CA recently changed their rules on engine swaps - I could have gone the Chevy route if my timing had been better - and that is a much cheaper alternative. ~$5k for a brand new motor... I've actually been entertaining the notion of doing it just for the hell of it but my much better half hasn't signed on yet...
Best of luck whichever way you go...
This. Nothing saying you need to get it fixed immediately if you don't have the funds. Throw it in the garage or under a cover for a year and save. The 996 is just a few years from being a "collectible". You'll have 40k in it, but chances are it will be a 40k car in 5-10 years anyway.
Around here, 997 prices are starting to edge downward into the 25k level. There are just too many of these cars on the road to make them more valuable.
As with anything, it�s only worth what the next buyer will pay for it. That said, I bought my c4s to drive, not as an investment. 2,000 miles of smiles later I�m still enjoying every minute behind the wheel. If it goes up in value great, if it stays flat great, if it depreciates some more great ... because driving a Porsche delivers a spiritual return on my investment every time I hit the throttle!
I have also noticed that although we 996 owners know there approximate values, the public still sees them as very very expensive cars. I�ve even had the police knock on my door and suggest I close my garage door, especially with �that car� in it, meanwhile almost every car parked up and down the block are more valuable.
Agreed, every time we take out the Porsche people think its a 100k car. The average Jane and Joe on the street just see Porsche Carrera and assume its huge money. I bought the 996 because we wanted a Porsche convertible and to most people surprise liked the "fried egg" look. Could have spent more and bought other models but to me there was no point in doing so as I didn't buy the car to impress anyone but myself. The fact that people think its a 100k supercar is a funny byproduct.
Bummer! I see another Porsche in your life somewhere down the road. Enjoy the ride, as it's really all the matters - the "destination" is always over hyped.
THanks. Keeping my head down driving a base Impreza to make the wife happy (cheap, under warranty, super reliable). Trying to figure out the next step, what I want. It will have to be a daily driver, so “4” seats is needed for kids. I’m not sure I can go the panamera or Macan route, for me if it’s a Porsche it should be more the 911 or cayman (nothing against the other models such as 924, 944, 928). May end up saving and going a CPO route on a more recent 911. The wife is reluctant to see more money go to a car without a warranty. The irony is we have an 86 vette in our garage (hers, not mine). I joked at an engine transplant as that engine is rock solid (not that I actually think that model engine will swap in easily like other conversions) but that didn’t go over. I’ll bide my time fixing up that vette and enjoying that In the interim. Hopefully I’ll be back before too long.
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