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YOUR RESEARCHBlew my 996
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Replace too
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Reported fix · Original poster
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If the main bearings spun, the crank carrier will need to be replaced too.
Engine sounded completely normal, oil pressure came back to normal levels once the car cooled off, the only indication was that the car shuttered side to side really hard at RPMs over 3000.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
All blocks are pressure tested to 40 PSI and all bores are checked for ovality, taper, and surface finish to ensure they are within our specifications.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed · Original poster
I was using Mobil 1 0w-40, haven't done any oil analysis, and the oil was changed 50 miles before I started my track day.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
Your rebuild will require a new/good used one, likely best to start with a good used engine.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed · Original poster
used long block, used short block, new short block, etc.
Engine sounded completely normal, oil pressure came back to normal levels once the car cooled off, the only indication was that the car shuttered side to side really hard at RPMs over 3000.
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
All blocks are pressure tested to 40 PSI and all bores are checked for ovality, taper, and surface finish to ensure they are within our specifications.
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Suggestion
One shouldn�t run an engine under any of these circumstances, but it�s really hard and dangerous to be constantly taking our eyes off the track to look at oil pressure.
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Suggestion
I can't imagine a situation where a "Green" run group student would be allowed to "I was the fastest in my group, even was the only one to pass an instructor at pace." or "but on that session I was wringing her for all she had."
Engine sounded completely normal, oil pressure came back to normal levels once the car cooled off, the only indication was that the car shuttered side to side really hard at RPMs over 3000.
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Terrible day as my best friend failed on track at Mid-Ohio. I had just put Billy Boat mufflers, a ROW M030 suspension kit, Rennline Race Motor mounts, 997 shifter and a Rennline shift ****. I upgraded to an X51 baffle kit and was using 340 treadwear Continental Extreme Contact Sports, so I should've been okay. Key words there being should have. Now begins the process of rebuilding. I haven't split the block yet, but as you can see from the gold rush of an oil filter container something's been destroyed. Best guess from my friend's at P3 Autokrafte in Dayton is main bearings.
Now I turn to rennlist. I have rebuilt one engine two years ago in a shop class which was held in the middle of the night, so I'll call my experience null. My wrenching ability I would describe as average. I have bought the 996 service manual, and 101 projects for you 996. What else should I do, or get, or whom should I seek to help me try to rebuild this M96. As well as, should I explore boring or stroking while I'm in there. I'm planning on installing an LN engineering IMS bearing as well as an LN engineering .5 qt deep sump oil pan. I'm planning on getting a different car to be a dedicated track car, so I'll skip the 2 quart deep sump to avoid clearance issues.
Thanks in advance for your feedback guys!
Yikes! Sorry for your loss but think of it as an opportunity to bump up the displacement to 3.6 or 3.8.
This long thread documents some major steps of my rebuild (3.6 to 3.8 LN nickies) may help
https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...wn-engine.html
Ouch! I know that feels like a gut punch especially with all the money you've dumped into the car.
Not trying to add insult to injury or turn this into another oil thread, but what oil were you running? Did you lose pressure on the track?
Personally, if you wanted to rebuild the motor yourself, I would encourage you to take Jake Raby's M96 rebuild classes.
Mobil 1 0w-40, and yes. I lost pressure coming out the Esses if you know Mid-Ohio. Car never stopped running, but if I went over 3000rpm it would shutter really hard. Guessing that�s the crank banging around against destoryed mains.
Bummer, this is why when I saw my oil pressure go down at Blackhawk on the long sweeper after 5 or 6 laps to 2-3 bar and then pop back up again once I got out of the turn I decided to call it a day. That doesn't change things for you though. Best of luck, rebuilding one of these engines is not the easiest or cheapest thing to do, especially with lack of experience.
Man, why don't you just put in a ticket with Flat 6 Innovations down in Georgia? In the long run, you will be better off with the engine they "reconstruct".
Jake told me if I could wait in line 12 mos and if 40k didnt scare me off (in a VM message) call him back.
Jake can be difficult. Good at what he doesnt but...
Needless to say I had another shop build my engine.
PS. At 22 I was racing a 2.0 914. Good on you.
Congrats! It took me to the age of 32 before I could buy a house 1994 and in 1995 buy a new Chevy Tahoe...But I could not afford a Porsche until 6 months ago when I came across "The996 Roller" for $4K!
I still can't afford a Porsche but I got one anyway!
Good luck and do keep us posted on your progress.
drop a used 3.4 in there and take your time to rebuild your current engine. that way you don't lose the season. these cars driven hard, having a spare motor is not a bad idea.
There are 2 questions you need ask yourself, to answer yourself:
1. Do you want to continue do track days with this car?
2. How much money do you have available to spend?
A reliable track engine is expensive, no way around it. From the looks of your canister, the crank is trashed. Your rebuild will require a new/good used one, likely best to start with a good used engine.
A reliable track engine will be $20k for a DIY effort with nickies, overbore, IMS Solution, head work, etc
To outsource, it only goes up from there.
Sorry to hear
As op stated it must have been a gut punch.
How many miles on engine?
Had you been doing an oil analysis after oil changes?
Any thoughts from techs out here, would/should a bearing failure shown up in oil analysis?
Thanks for all the replies guys!
I was using Mobil 1 0w-40, haven't done any oil analysis, and the oil was changed 50 miles before I started my track day. Car had 80,000 on the clock and purred like a kitten(until she didn't).
This was actually my first track day, so I don't believe I'll be continuing to track this car. Simply because it's cost prohibitive, between this and simple consumables. I might occasionally track it, so I will do a quality rebuild plus just peace of mind if my foot gets heavy on a back road
I think I'm going take one of the Knowledge Gruppe's M96 online classes to get me prepared for a rebuild at home. I'm also going to talk to my local PCA, get the word out and see if someone with more experience could lend a hand for a few beers. I have a lot more research to do and to crack open the block to decide which path I'll go down, i.e. used long block, used short block, new short block, etc.
I'll post all my updates on this thread and hope, pray, sacrifice a goat, and whatever else is necessary to get her back on the road soon!
Really sorry to hear this. Also Mid-Ohio should be such a positive experience. Don't let it spoil your future track time. I have been tracking for 3 years, now has over 90K miles, '99 C2 with no issues, so it can be done. GLWR.
Sounds like you have a good plan. Sorry to hear this too. But if you�ve done engines before and do your research and take your time, you�ll do well.
Tracking can be expensive almost no matter how we slice it. Even folks running Miatas, arguably one of the cheapest cars to track still spend hundreds of dollars. Stuff breaks, but also, stuff wears out and gets consumed. Too bad these m96 engines suffer from these high-g sweeping turns oil pressure drops.
Yikes, sorry for your loss. You are young, you will learn a ton on this journey and have a sense of accomplishment and pride that is priceless once you succeed. See what I did there? You will succeed. I tell you what. You take the online class, and I will personally pay for half of the hands on when you are ready. I heavily recommend the hands on class. This project may be a long venture for you, but you will succeed if you are determined and you sound like a very determines young guy.
Really sorry to hear about this. Learning to drive a 911 on the track should be an especially rewarding experience.
My '99 was setup in a similar fashion to yours and I DE'ed the snot out of it for several years without a single hiccup. So assuming you are seeing shavings from the main bearings, I wonder what actually took place.
What sanctioning group were you running with?
Are you an experienced DE / Race / AX driver?
Have you dropped the oil pan to make sure the oil pan baffles are still in place?
Can you test both the primary oil pump and the left bank scavenging pump to make sure both were functioning properly?
Did you ever see anything unusual with the oil pressure, either on the drive to/from the track or after a session?
Just some thoughts. Hope it works out for you.
The event was Grid Life. This was my first DE, and everything was going gloriously until the motor went. I was the fastest in my group, even was the only one to pass an instructor at pace. The car has been sitting at a shop and will remain there until I get house, which hopefully will be next month. That's when I'll be able to tear the engine down, and find out exactly what happened to the poor girl. The oil levels were good, and oil pressure was where it was supposed to be for how hot the car was. I only had 30 minutes between sessions, so I might have not been thorough enough on my checks.
The event was Grid Life. This was actually my first DE, and it was glorious until I the engine had second thoughts on being an engine. I was actually the fastest in my beginner's class, even passed an instructor at pace. The car has been sitting at a shop since it got towed back and will remain to do so until I get a house to put it at. Once that happens I'll be able to drop it and determine what actually happened. Oil levels and pressures were good for how hot the car was. I only had 30 minutes between sessions and might not have been thorough enough once I got off track. In hindsight I should've skipped a session and let her cool down a bit before running back out there, but live and learn.
I wish, that's way out of my budget. I still owe on this car, so if I want to sell it as a roller I have to come up with the other cash to get the title. I'm just going to keep her a fix it as cash comes in. Plus this was my first car that I bought that I idolized as a kid, so it's pretty damn special to me.
This is the route I would take but if you have the time, take it apart and have a look at it. If the cranks is damaged beyond polishing, you will need another one to replace it with. If the main bearings spun, the crank carrier will need to be replaced too. What the engine making noise? How did you notice the problem? When my main bearings were coming apart (they luckily didn�t spin), the only indication was a lower than normal oil pressure.
After reading your reviews and taking the class myself, I believe in the class 100%. It is worth every penny.
I also believe the class greatly increases the OP�s chance at success. Not just the information and hands on help but the connections and comraderie and things I can�t type here. The class is far more valuable than the cost of tuition.
I got a lot of great advice and help when I was young from lots of good people too.
Honestly my offer is but a tiny drop in the bucket compared to the expense of this project overall. I�m really trying to get the OP to attend the next class so that he will succeed. That�s it.
I�d be all for a RL gofundme to send a young guy to the class. The class is that good. It�d probably be an awesome community way to help M96 owners that end up in this tough spot. It�s sad when this happens because there is no inexpensive easy button to solve this problem. I�ve always had domestic hobby cars prior to my Audi�s and Porsche�s and fixing domestic V8s is so easy and cheap in comparison.
The tools needed to do this job right are a major expense alone.
Engine sounded completely normal, oil pressure came back to normal levels once the car cooled off, the only indication was that the car shuttered side to side really hard at RPMs over 3000. Nickie's 3.6L and 3.8L blocks are $5,000. I reached out to them to see if I could re-use my heads and crank, if it can be turned, on a 3.8L. Then throw a rebuild kit on top of that I should be close to a Porsche short block in price with some extra ponies.
The rod bearings typically go first. With that level of particulates in the oil, the mains probably got trash in them and there is likely some level of bore scoring. Rebuilding the current engine is probably the most expensive route if the crank and carrier are trash.
I would look for an engine out of a wrecked 1999, preferably a M96-01. May take some time to find a good one.
I have the same question and would love to have more info. It's odd that some people are able to track these cars for years without problems, and others pop really prematurely, even though on the outside it seems the owner/drivers are treating them similarly. It's hard to believe that the engines are that variable, that some are really durable and others extremely fragile. There's got to be something we're doing to them that sends them down one path or another!
Agreed, OP I hope this works out and you end up in a better place even than where you started before the failure. Driving these cars on the street or the track is really fun, it's a shame it always seems to come with so much hand-wringing! Good luck!
People that say that DEs don�t put much strain on the car are probably driving cautiously and slow. You and I, on the other hand, like to push the car hard. So yeah, street tires and a plain-Jane stock setup street cars can use nearly 100% of the tires, brakes, engine. So it really does depend on the driver, IMO.
I wouldn't beat yourself up about that. I don't think the difference between 30 minutes of cooldown time or 60-90 minutes should fundamentally make or break your engine; something else must have been wrong. I instruct in my car, so I'm frequently running multiple sessions back-to back, running at ~98% by myself and then running maybe 90% carrying students in the passenger seat. So in fairness I'm not wringing the car's neck every lap. But I'm not giving it much time to rest either. Once the car has been out on track for a few laps and is up to steady-state running, I don't think it knows whether the previous session was 10 minutes ago or 2 hours ago.
Its likely mostly about the oil pressure drop issue. Folks engines that blow up on the track usually suffer from oil pressure drops here or there.
Mobil 1 and other street oils might be very good (they test very well), but when it comes to aeration, not sure they do that well on the track. Some folks have actually seen oil pressure drops on mountain roads, not just track.
Oil pressure is like blood pressure. Losing pressure, even for a very short while, is critically dangerous. If the gauge on the dash drops from 4 or 5 to 2 or 3 momentarily, the actual pressure is likely zero at that time. If pressure was once 4 or 5 and then drops to 2 or 3 at high RPM and stays low, that�s a sign that either the oil is way too hot, or something has compromised oil delivery. One shouldn�t run an engine under any of these circumstances, but it�s really hard and dangerous to be constantly taking our eyes off the track to look at oil pressure. So it�s a real problem for this car and other cars as well.
Could not agree more. Complete conjecture on my part, but I don't think it had anything to do with oil pooling in a cylinder head because he was pulling too many G's for too long. There was a more fundamental oiling issue at play.
All this talk has me wishing I could pull the engine and find out once and for all!
I do have to say I would take a cool down lap occasionally, but on that session I was wringing her for all she had. My friend had me clocked a very unofficial 1:45, which I was pretty happy with for my first time out!
Talk more specifically about the oil pressure drops. Were they just in the turns, or did you see a consistently low pressure at one point? What were your indicated water temps?
I was running 230 Fahrenheit, and dips in oil pressure through the turns. The oil pressure was lower than what I was used to, but was consistent with what I saw guys on here getting when they were running on track.
1:45 is a great lap time for a stock 996!! I'm pretty happy to run consistent 1:47s at that track
Nice work!
230F water temp strikes me as hot. I don't really know how accurate the dash gauge is, but presumably if it's linear, you're to the right of the tick mark between 180 and 250, since that would be 215? On my car I rarely see anything above the "0" in 180, which I'm guessing is around ~205 or something.
I had a BlueDriver OBD II scanner on the car giving me a digital readout on my water temperature which said the just past the 0 was 230. Anytime I hit that I would do cool down lap and get back to the start of the 0 by the front straight.
For my car, the dash is way off. I find this a commonly reported experience on the early 99s. The last white line on the gauge before red is enough to trigger the high speed fans, 102C (215F).
Unless something changed in the last year or so, there is no rebuild kit available for these engines. One company makes oversized crank bearings at a $1000/set but that�s it but these cranks don�t like to be re ground much. I think the crank is the same in the Boxter (not 100% sure) so you would be better off getting a good used one instead. Does the $5K include the pistons and the rings to work with that liner?
I've been doing it for ~10-12 years in dual-purpose street/track cars. A 1:45 in a stock 996 at Mid-Ohio on street tires is fast. A fully-prepped 996 cup car on slicks will run something like a 1:35.
I don't want to be a debbie downer, but there are many more expenses here, including a set of pistons, arp rod bolts, etc etc. Also plan to throw out the stock oil cooler with all that metal in there. and then there's IMS upgrades, and a clutch, and an x,y,z. Whatever you are planning on spending on a 3.8 or similar as based on your post, double, if not triple it.
Sorry, i've lost an m96 on the track also, and it sucks.
I've lost an engine on the track before too, although not an M96.
It was in 1990 when I was 23.
It was a professionally built racing engine, and I decided to rebuild it myself.
The expenses just kept adding up.
The timing belt broke on an engine that would not have normally been an interference engine in stock form.
I still have the Bertil Roos camshaft...all 6 pieces of it.
The new engine ended up being more new parts than used parts.
Luckily if you go with Nickie's, they will come with pistons.
But there are so many other items needed to do it properly that the piston savings will be gone before you know it.
Although they aren't on the website (yet), we do offer rebuilt kits as a courtesy to customers for whom we are doing the block work and supplying other upgrades. We also have a large core bank of cranks, carriers, and parts for most, if not all the m-codes.
The $5k includes Nickies, resurfacing the deck of the block, and new coated JE Pistons, rings, pins, and clips. All blocks are pressure tested to 40 PSI and all bores are checked for ovality, taper, and surface finish to ensure they are within our specifications.
We will be adding a new option of vapor blasting the case halves, but we're waiting for the equipment to come from the UK. We've never been happy with how ugly the cases, even after going through our two step process of jet wash and then ultrasonic cleaning.
All the stock replacement cranks we sell are STD and if they need more than just polishing, they are discarded. If a crank went through a catastrophic failure, it's automatically disqualified.
We have done custom reworked cranks for Jake with exotic bearings and non-standard rods, but those go out for heat-treating, among other steps, before they are final ground to size. It's costly, but that's the only way you can cut one of these cranks for non OEM STD bearings.
It has been 4 years since I walked away, but here goes.
The OP said that this was his first DE, minimal or no previous track experience. At a PCA event, beginners would have an instructor in car the entire weekend. Speeds are often capped in this group. And I have seen passing restricted too. I can't imagine a situation where a "Green" run group student would be allowed to "I was the fastest in my group, even was the only one to pass an instructor at pace." or "but on that session I was wringing her for all she had."
Emphasis is on safety, car balance, and learning the car and your surroundings. And, of course, the DE line.
That said, every sanctioning group is different with a different approach to driving enjoyment. Just a matter of what you are looking for.
Got it. Thanks for the explanation. I should have tied the experience level and instructor-in-the-car pieces together. Somehow I was focusing on the friend putting a watch on him. I have no reference for times at Mid-O. My times, there, could be captured with an hour glass.
There's obviously more to the story.
I took the m96 hands-on Engine rebuilding class. Great learning experience. As I recall parts alone would be 14k-ish .. of course those are old numbers, mileage may vary, etc.. but you�ll end up with a motor that you�ll know has everything addressed properly. However finding an used engine would be cheaper.. but you�ll still want to address the maintenance items on that too.
Re: oil pressure on the track - Whatever upgrades you try, test them for gods sake first, before booking a DE or track event. Easy test - do 15 minutes of highway speeds to heat up your oil and aerate it to moderate levels.. find a secluded patch of pavement behind a Walmart, put it in 1st gear, start turning circles such that the Rpms are just above the level at which max oil pressure is reached (around 3400 rpm for 10w40 oil), and your on the edge of traction. Try to keep this up for 30 seconds. Cruise control is your friend - to eliminate your right foot from the equation. Did the oil pressure fluctuate? If yes, change your setup. If no, try turning the other way around.
I am almost positive your engine looks like one of my blown engines in my garage. The top of the piston is stuck in the cylinder and the bottom of the piston was in the oil pan.
I bet you lost oil pressure due to the bad oiling system design. I believe I have the pics posted on my InstaGram.
As for the engine issues, I might be able to help you out. PM me.
OT, I almost went to University of Dayton. Ended up going to UC. My dad worked at AK Steel for 2 in '94-'97.
I agree. This is why I stopped participating in PCA events. NASA events are so much better!
So sorry this happened to you. As it happens, I'm in Dayton too and Danny at P3 Autokrafte is my go-to guy (I have an '04 996TT).
This thread has been very helpful just to get the information about Jake Raby's M96 rebuild class.
I know this is scant comfort, but I really like your wheels. Are they powder-coated by chance?
If I can figure out how to PM on this thing, I'll drop you a line with my email addy in case there's anything I can do to help. Best wishes for success!
