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YOUR RESEARCHJust came back from a local Porsche shop - Interesting news (3.4l oiling)
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Fill with race cars
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Just came back from a local Porsche shop - Interesting news (3.4l oiling)
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Leading evidence: 'Fill with race cars' (no explicit attributable resolution; this is a reported action or suggestion). Across 1 matching discussions, The most frequently discussed action is 'Fill with race cars' (1 discussions). For that action, 0 discussions report a resolution and 0 report an unsuccessful attempt. No action has an explicit, attributable resolution report under the current rules. These are forum reports and suggestions, not a confirmed diagnosis.
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Just came back from a local Porsche shop - Interesting news (3.4l oiling)
Replace existing scavenge pump
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Just came back from a local Porsche shop - Interesting news (3.4l oiling)
Run between service intervals
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Suggestion
The lower the set redline the longer the engine can be run between service intervals.
Just came back from a local Porsche shop - Interesting news (3.4l oiling)
Set redline lower
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Suggestion
In order to extend the time between services, read rebuilds, Porsche recommends setting the redline lower on the engine.
Just came back from a local Porsche shop - Interesting news (3.4l oiling)
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Spoke with the owner of a local performance shop here in the ATL area. There is a similar mod to the x51 oiling update. The oil pump from the Turbo is taken and used as well as a similar feed tube. You still have to machine the valve cover, but I am thinking this will be cheaper to do. (meaning - no Porsche Motorsports parts.)
I should know more on this very soon. stay tuned.
Chad
yes, will stay tuned for this... is the extra pump for oil starvation under braking? from what I understand the turbo doesnt have the oil pump like the gt3 have.
http://www.pca.org/tech/tech_qa_question.asp?id={6AAD8903-6A72-40F4-9A1F-9D021DD24DB2}
edit: fixed barking to braking... thanks dreamcarrera
Here's more info:
Upon speaking with him, the x51 motorsports kit is no longer available. (Some of us knew this....it is now confirmed). The alternative is to take the 996 Turbo's scavenge pump and feed tube and retrofit it to the 3.4L. Ironically, this setup is very close (if not identical) to the x51 oiling kit. The difference lies in the fact that you are required to cut the heat shield a bit to make the feed tube fit. When doing so, the most forward mounting screw now becomes available as a point to support the tube itself.
It really was an eye opening discussion. I have requested part numbers as well as a quote for install. I should have more information tomorrow.
Lastly (this part made me smile big)....he mentioned that the 3.4L is a better motor (in his opinion) for upgrading and tuning for the track. He also said the 3.4L can have a higher tuned RPM rate than the larger powerplants. I am really looking forward to learning more....stay tuned.
C.
bump,
to subscribe and see where this goes. I'm looking at keeping this motor for a while and due to lack of driving, it's looking like this is going to be a track only car. Anything that'll save the motor is worth an eye on.
I'd love to see pictures of this (of the install procedure and machining modifications, really). If you get to "hang around his shop", bring your camera!
Subscribed.
I am very interested to hear more details about this system.
I would not program the engine to operate at a higher RPM however. IMHO, the increase in performance would be very minimal, and it would not justify the increased stress on the engine. This of course assumes that engine mods have raised peak horsepower RPM past the 6,800 RPM stock reading.
Motor Werks Racing in Cumming, GA.
Spoke with Matthew Forte
Nice guy, lots of info on the car. He even had one in the back completely setup. Motons, cage, blah, blah, blah...
My preference is Performance Imports. Peter has always treated me right. I will call him to find out if he can do this modification as well.
FWIW - I also found an AWESOME powder coating operation.
C.
The information I provided is coming directly from an experienced engine builder. The car on the floor had a redline at 7800.
His shop was filled with race cars. As I do not know what your experience is building race motors, I'll take his word for it for now.
C.
As the RPM of an engine increases, so does the stress put on the various engine components. Porsche engines are designed to run for extended periods at high RPMs and you may very well be able to increase the facory redline of a 996 but make no mistake about it, doing so will also increase the stress on the engine dramatically.
I do not have experience building race car engines but this does not change the facts that I have stated. The 996's engine is certainly not bullet proof and increasing its factory redline will shorten the engines life-span. I am simply saying that you should take this into consideration if you choose to increase the factory programed redline. Of course, there is a big difference between hitting 7,800 RPM on the street here and there as opposed to hitting 7,800 RPMs all day at the track.
The 996 cup car engine is a pure race engine and its time between service intervals is measured in hours not miles. In order to extend the time between services, read rebuilds, Porsche recommends setting the redline lower on the engine. The lower the set redline the longer the engine can be run between service intervals. I think you would agree that Porsche has some experience building race engines, certainly more than a race shop in Georgia. LOL
Uh...
There is just a bit more to it than simply just "increasing the factory redline."
Why on earth would that be the only thing done? When you increae the redline of a motor (any motor for that matter), the valve train needs to be improved. Meaning heavy springs, removal of hydraulic lifters and replaced with solid ones, heavier duty valve guides, the list goes on and on...
I was referring to a track only car in his shop. One that had a laundry list of modifications done to it.
Thanks for the obvious input though...
FWIW, I was obviously not referring to a totally race prepped 3.4L motor. I was referring to those who simply chip their cars, many of the performance chips increase the engines redline without making any mods to the engines hardware. I was merely making the point that those that do this should maybe reconsider due to the incidents of engine failure reported by 996 owners. Many of my comments were far from obvious input to the uninitiated.
I don't appreciate the comment and pic BTW. I'll be in the Atlanta area in a few weeks, if that is were you are. I'd love to meet up and hear the captain comment in person.
Feel free...beer is always available for other Porsche-geek's like me.
(and...relax about the comment. Everyone here will tell you my sense of humor is a bit twisted.)
Cold beer is waiting. Just shoot me a PM. In the meantime...
The most obvious advantage of the 3.4L over the 3.6L when it comes to increasing redline is the fact that it's a shorter stroke motor. This means less friction on the most basic level. I do not know the specs on intake/exhaust valve geometry, but I wouldn't be surprised if they are identical, which means the 3.4L will also have an advantage at higher rpm levels.
3.6L 3.78 X 3.26
3.4L 3.78 X 3.07
What cracks me up is people who think that Porsche left power on the table because they're stupider than some dudes on the internet.
Every roadgoing engine has more power in it, if you're willing to make the sacrifices necessary to get it. Those sacrifices can be noise, fuel economy, emissions, low speed driveability, reliability, durability, on and on.
Any dolt can make an engine do one thing well. If only my car just had to do one thing.
I don't believe anyone here called anyone stupid (at least until you did). When taking anything from the design stage to a viable consumer product many compromises and engineering decisions have to be made along the way. (If you've ever taken part in creating a consumer product, you would understand this) And what is the number one priority of any public company? profit. That means cost cutting and timetables. A basic real world example would be the plenum. Here's a part that was obviously a cost cutting measure on the original engine. We now have superior options available. This might come as a shock to some but Porsche is not divine and all-knowing. Their engineers cannot bend time or pass through walls. They have to deal with bean counters and bureaucratic red tape just like the rest of us. I'm sorry I had to be the one to tell you.
P.S. there is no Santa Claus
If I've ever taken part in creating a consumer product?
Don't bring a knife to this gunfight, my condescending friend. 28 years in marketing, here, including several years in the car business (Toyota and Honda). I hate to shatter your little socialist fantasy, but there are many things brought to bear on taking a product to market besides profit. That simplistic, consumer-as-victim view you have of the world is, in fact, often the reason that products aren't as good as they could be.
P.S. There is no 100 mpg carburetor.
The phrase I used was "number one priority." Might want to read it again. Nothing "socialist" or "consumer-as-victim" about it. Far from it, actually. You are absolutely right there are lots of reasons, I was providing a basic example to give everyone an idea of what really happens. My perspective is (obviously) from the engineering side of things. What the engineer intends and designs is never exactly what makes it into the living room. Just to over simplify things again
Not to split hairs, but from an engineering perspective the "number one priority" is actually cost which, yes, bears on profit, but it's kind of a different problem. Given free rein, engineers could design a car that was awesome at everything, including reliability and durability. But it would be so expensive that nobody would buy it. Every car, even a Bugatti Veyron, has stuff in it that was a product of "how cheaply can we make this non-mission-critical part so we can claw back the cost of that mission-critical part?". Marketing ends up getting involved in this stuff both because marketing has to figure out what price the car can be sold for and, with high volume manufacturers, what the consumer demands or will tolerate. Yes, Porsche makes the biggest unit margins on the planet. But they also only sold an average of 20,000 units a year or so of the 996. That has some real amortization challenges, which can only be solved either by pricing up (which they did as much as they thought they could) or cost cutting where they thought they could get away with it (which they did).
Over a beer, I bet I'd have some Toyota stories you, as an engineer, would enjoy. Their secret weapon, quality wise, is actually production engineering. They aren't brilliant design engineers; what they're brilliant at is engineering production processes. This, I suspect, is the real reason Porsche contracted them on the 996 project. You can only decontent a car so much in the name of margins. A company that had been building cars by hand for 40 years would need some help figuring out how find margins in production efficiency.
Oh, I forgot Toyota's other secret weapon: They leverage their high volume to play unbelievable hardball with suppliers. Try that on 20,000 units a year.
Greetings all:
As I am scouring the information online, I have come up with some leads to where theTech was getting his information. Interestingly enough, here is what I have found thus far:
Information sources:
Pelican Parts Online parts diagrams (Turbo Oil Return)
Porsche 996/C2/GT3 Workshop manuals
The following Diagrams describe the comparision between the two solutions:
Here is the X51 oiling Kit with the Dual Chamber Pump and oil line.
Here is the Turbo Return/scavenge pump and the location of the oil line. Note - the heat shield requires modification to make the components fit (this is the case with both the X51 & this version). The oil line may very well be a custom component fabricated to work. In my opinion, a braided / reinforced line will work nicely as would a custom bent and threaded tube. Actual factory parts may not be necessarily required to fit the line or make this work. Heat resistance would be advised due to its location next to the header.
Summary - Based upon visual clues, this certainly appears to be a viable option to this very talked about problem with the 3.4L engine. And as far as I can tell, the Turbo's pump would fit and fit in the correct orientation on the motor. Cost for this part could likely be around $450-600 each. And this does not include the machining of the valve cover.
More investigation will happen on Monday when I can speak with more detail to the Tech. I should have even more answers the deeper I get into this. My full intention is to do this modification and possible prepare kits (parts listings that others could use).
Oh, and before I forget...it is also VERY obvious that the use of the X51 oil pan with this mod is VERY recommended.
Stay tuned. More to come.
Chad
The existing gear driven mechanism. It simply replaces the existing scavenge pump. The difference lies in the additional intake point for the oil line.
C.
Ok, now that make sense, seems simple enough. Does this scavenges the oil under braking condtion, since the oil is forced to move at the back of the engine? Is this the primary function of the extra port?
The oil scavenge pump works all the time, just like the central one in the oil pan. It is constantly working to move oil back to the primary supply. As long as the engine is running, it is running.
C.
