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YOUR RESEARCH1999 Carrera 3.4L Oiling Modification & Retrofit
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The problem is the following with the Tech's idea:
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Suggestion
ah, and that's why i recommend upgrading to the x51 oil pan (which i have done) for a 3.4L.
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Suggestion
The final decision should be based on whether or not you run “sticky” tires.
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Suggestion · Original poster
My full intention is to do this modification and possible prepare kits (parts listings that others could use).
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PLEASE KNOW - I am a shade tree mechanic. I have worked on my own cars for over 12 years and feel pretty comfortable tackling pretty much any project. I am posting this information on the basis for information gathering purposes only. You work on your own car AT-YOUR-OWN-RISK. Please do so in accordance to all safety measures available.
3.4L Oiling Modification & Retrofit
Greetings all:
Since the last thread got a bit side tracked, I am posting this one as an informational thread. Please only post questions or input as I am trying to keep this as informational as possible. Thank you.
**UPDATE: 11/19/07**
I placed a call to Kelly-Moss Motorsports in Wisconsin. If anyone is going to know if the Turobo scavenge pump fits, they would. Upon speaking to the Cheif Technical person there, he agreed that the Turbo Pump should fit and work accordingly. In fact, he came to the same "ah, HAH!" moment as I have about the idea of this retrofit. In addition, he agreed to help me put together a kit once I find out all the components needed.
I may end up buying the parts and trying to make this work on my own. At the moment, I am trying to see if an aftermarket group might be interested in helping me to put the Retrofit kit together. so far, the price found for Turbo oil return pump is: $474.95 (via
http://www.9parts.com/
)
As I am scouring the information online, I have come up with some leads to where theTech was getting his information. Interestingly enough, here is what I have found thus far:
Information sources:
Pelican Parts Online parts diagrams (Turbo Oil Return)
Porsche 996/C2/GT3 Workshop manuals
The following Diagrams describe the comparision between the two solutions:
Here is the X51 oiling Kit with the Dual Chamber Pump and oil line.
Here is the Turbo Return/scavenge pump and the location of the oil line. Note - the heat shield requires modification to make the components fit (this is the case with both the X51 & this version). The oil line may very well be a custom component fabricated to work. In my opinion, a braided / reinforced line will work nicely as would a custom bent and threaded tube. Actual factory parts may not be necessarily required to fit the line or make this work. Heat resistance would be advised due to its location next to the header.
Summary - Based upon visual clues, this certainly appears to be a viable option to this very talked about problem with the 3.4L engine. And as far as I can tell, the Turbo's pump would fit and fit in the correct orientation on the motor. Cost for this part could likely be around $450-600 each. And this does not include the machining of the valve cover.
More investigation will happen on Monday when I can speak with more detail to the Tech. I should have even more answers the deeper I get into this. My full intention is to do this modification and possible prepare kits (parts listings that others could use).
Oh, and before I forget...it is also VERY obvious that the use of the X51 oil pan with this mod is VERY recommended.
Stay tuned. More to come.
Chad
Chad!
This is great information and I am anxiously following your quest to the end because I will do this for sure on mine!
This kind of info is so good and one of the reason's that make Rennlist and members such a valuable resource!
thanks again!
Peter
MODIFICATION ON HOLD
Upon speaking with Steven at Imagine Auto (the 996 Turbo Guru), I am not sure about this retrofit. The 996 / GT3 scavenge pump has different fittings for an output line and a couple inputs.
Something is not adding up. I placed a call to the shop where the tech told me this is possible to gain information. The receptionist is putting together a quote for me with (hopefully) a parts listing.
Stay tuned. I will post what I find out as soon as I can.
Thanks,
Chad
seriously chad, it is overkill if you don't run slicks. people have been racing with hoosiers without starvation. MPSC, NT01, RA1, etc.., won't generate enough G's to create starvation. if you don't run tracks that have sustained high G turns of 10 seconds or more, i.e. ovals, then the x51 pan is sufficient.
when i go to slick i will definetly do this mod. thx for the legwork.
for extreme tracking/racing, later cars would need this mod too. oil scavenging did not change from the 3.4L to the 3.6L as evidenced by the 3.6L x51 kit.
Chad... this is what I was refering to in my previous post regarding this mod. It is meant to battle hard braking conditions... personally I think its a no issue. Though I did put in the x51 pan for peace of mind.
From PCA
http://www.pca.org/tech/tech_qa_question.asp?id={361FCF02-7326-4C88-96A5-B5C2CE361057}
Question:
Can you discuss the Porsche Motorsport North America competition lubrication system for the 996? Which cars need it? Full competition cars, active time trial cars, autocross cars, even spirited rural driving cars? Does it void the factory warranty? (Could a factory modification really void the Factory warranty?)
Answer:
I think that this problem may be highly exaggerated. I know a lot of people running 996s in track events and have still never heard of a real engine failure sighting. It is almost like flying saucers—we keep hearing about them, but we just never see them.
In their testing Porsche has obviously created a condition where the engine can harm itself or they never would have issued that warning about putting sticky tires on these cars. However, as far as I know this problem has not carried over into real life. I have never heard of one failure caused by this condition.
The potential problem derives from the fact that the layout of the engine is a mirror image from side to side. The cam chain drive on the left side of the engine (cylinders 1-3) is at the flywheel end of the engine and on the right side (cylinders 4-6) is at the front of the engine or at the rear of the car. The oil return pumps (scavenge pumps) are driven from the chain drive end of the exhaust camshaft, so on the left side the pump is at the rear of the engine (that’s the end closest to the driver) and on the right it is at the front of the engine or at the rear of the car. The supposed problem is that under braking in a corner all of the oil in the right side of the engine can be thrown up towards the rear of the engine (flywheel end) and you can end up with too much oil in the valve cover and not enough in the oil sump.
Porsche has come up with Oil kit 996 for the U.S. market. This kit consists of a replacement oil return pump for the right side of the engine which has two scavenge stages. This kit is available form Porsche Motorsport North America, and is currently advertised at $1325 plus shipping. You must also remove your right valve cover and send it to Porsche Motorsport for machining. The machining is included in the price of the kit. The reason that you must send your valve cover (cylinder head cover) and cannot do this on an exchange basis is that the valve cover also provides half of the bearing saddles for the camshafts. The cylinder head, valve cover and bearing saddles are machined together as a matched set and must remain together.
The Oilkit 996 is part of a Powerkit for the 996 that is available in Europe.
This Carrera Powerkit increases the 996 engine’s power to 320 PS horsepower. The Powerkit has other changes in addition to the oil scavenge pump modification, but the other engine modifications that increase the power are not available here in the US.
I guess that if you really want to be safe you should add this oilkit anytime you modify the car for competition. The final decision should be based on whether or not you run “sticky” tires. You should be safe with the standard street tires. I don’t know about the warranty, the implication in the Porsche Motorsport North America ad is that if you modify your car for competition there is no warranty. You may want to check with them.
Bruce Anderson-Panorama-8/00
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ah, and that's why i recommend upgrading to the x51 oil pan (which i have done) for a 3.4L. i should have said the oil scavenging pumps haven't changed from 3.4L to 3.6L.
I think your answer is here (from post number 8)
"Answer:
I think that this problem may be highly exaggerated. I know a lot of people running 996s in track events and have still never heard of a real engine failure sighting. It is almost like flying saucers�we keep hearing about them, but we just never see them."
Hey all - Thanks for keeping this going:
I have learned A LOT in the last few days researching this. With what I intend to do with my car (yep, slicks are coming), I am moving forward with this idea. The problem is the following with the Tech's idea:
1. The Turbo's inlet and outlet points on the return / scavenge pump differs from that of the 3.4L-3.6L's
2. The oultet on the pump goes to a line that feeds back to the turbo's / GT3's oil tank.
I am still waiting to hear from the shop Tech that suggested this.
In any case, this is still a possible mod due what it is. Simply put, it sucks the extra oil from the valve cover back into the sump. If we think about this simply, I can already think of an idea that could aid in making this simpler and more cost effective.
1. Machine the port into the valve cover
2. Machine a port into a sump or return location
3. Ansi fittings on both ends
4. Braided hose
5. Electric oil pump moving the excess oil back to the sump.
This is a MUCH simpler and cost effective way to do this. The trick is to create a switch in the cabin to turn it on along with a light that lets the driver know it is working.
I am working on this and will report my findings. Stay tuned.
C.
I called a parts upplier of mine. Let's just say - the little buggers are rather pricey for what they are. Around $800. And that doesn't include machining time.
If my figures are right, I could potentially cut the cost in half or more. Stay tuned.
C.
Hi Karlooz,
I know, I know. It has been debated to the point of exhaustion. I would rather have total piece of mind than rely on 3rd party information. Why not make a kit that completely rids the 3.4L's of any question on oiling? I ask you...
If you search, there are dozens of threads with questions. And...no real conclusive answers have ever been posted. For either side... IMO, that still leaves this question in the air.
So why not squash it completely?
C.
Nah, just personal experience. I go to tracks all summer long and I've never seen an M96 "blow". Certainly doesn't mean it can't happen.....but after tracking the 986 for 6 years I doubt it.
If you want to talk "flying saucers" go here...
http://www.dennis4president.com/
This is a source reference. Confirm exact model applicability in the original material.
