64 captured repliesDiscussion pagination complete · Source accounts, not a confirmed diagnosis
THIS DISCUSSION / SOURCE-DERIVED OVERVIEW
Discussion summary
YOUR RESEARCHcatastrophic engine failure
Reported or suspected cause
failed head gasket or a cracked cylinder head
Suggestion or failed attempt
No successful repair reported for this finding.
0
Identified cause
1
Suspected cause
0
Reported fixes
Read evidence and context
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Suspected cause
It was probably a failed head gasket or a cracked cylinder head.
Leading evidence: 'failed head gasket or a cracked cylinder head' (no explicit attributable resolution; this is a reported action or suggestion). Across 1 matching discussions, the most frequently mentioned possible cause is 'failed head gasket or a cracked cylinder head' (1 discussions; 0 report identifying it and 1 suggest it). The most frequently discussed action is 'Check forum' (1 discussions). For that action, 0 discussions report a resolution and 0 report an unsuccessful attempt. No action has an explicit, attributable resolution report under the current rules. These are forum reports and suggestions, not a confirmed diagnosis.
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Suggestion
Idea: Can we change the name of this thread to CEF...I hate seeing 'catastrophic engine failure' every time I check the forum!!
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Suggestion
Quick, go outside and check on your valve guides!!!
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Suggestion
Porsche doesn�t attempt to repair internal failure they adopt to replace the engine instead.
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Suggestion
I've owned some 1/2 dozen or more P-cars in my lifetime and the one thing I "thought" always was that the car would last forever no matter the model and when the engine went you replace the necessary seals, bearings, gaskets, etc...
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if this has been covered here, my apologies.
if not, as i am about to purchase an extended warraty for my 00 996, and now knowing that the rms issue is not that big of a deal, how prevelant is the "catastrophic engine failure" ?
the $600+- for an rms is no big deal, but $8k for a new motor is.
any opinions?
tia as usual
dave
lifetime member
I just did a "Search" on engine failure in the Trhead titles only. I found 10 threads (including this one) on the subject.
At the top right of the 996 Forum page (where the threads are listed) click on
Search this Forum
and then click on
Advanced Search
. In the top left text box enter
engine failure
and then click on the "drop down box" below it and select change it to
Search Titles Only
. You will get the 10 threads I found.
Go get your favorite beverage and sit back and enjoy the evening reading each of these threads. If you do not get the answer you are seeking, then ask your question again.
No one other than Porsche knows the stats on 996 engine failure but, if you do a search on this site or any other 996 forum you will see quite a few. Do the same search on any 993 forums and it�s a different story.
Porsche doesn�t attempt to repair internal failure they adopt to replace the engine instead. Mine had an intermix issue, that�s when the motor oil gets mix with the engine coolant. I don�t know what caused mine and Porsche won�t even respond to my letters. It was probably a failed head gasket or a cracked cylinder head.
For just under $12,000 I got a remanufactured engine with everything new except the air conditioner compressor along with a two year warranty.
The 996TT forum has no such engine failure threads.....with time, those prices will go up or at least go down more slowly because of this fact.
That being said, it is roulette....and "probably" 90% of the engines are fine and probably can go 200k+mi. If not, the US DOT probably would have already shut down the M96 in some way.....recall, etc.
JB
I think this is a great point - if the engines were prone to failure, the DOT would have forced Porsche to issue a recall, right? There must be some failure percentage chart that shows when a recall becomes mandatory,etc.
It's all relative. I read on the Acura RSX-S forum that there was a problem with the manual tranny syncros on a lot of the early RSX-s cars. This caused miss-shifts from first to second that sent the revs over the limit, blowing the motors up. Acura didn't admit to a problem, and the owners were SOL!
Here's an opinion, and I think you can apply it to all extended warranties for all cars:
If you could afford the $8,000 for a new engine, an extended warranty is a huge waste of money.
If you couldn't afford the $8,000, then you have to ask yourself how badly you want the car. If the answer is very badly, then accept that you're going to pre-pay a significant chunk of that 8 grand just for the feeling of security.
Trying to work out the odds that the warranty will pay off is a mug's game. Unless 51% of the engines fail, the odds are against you if you buy the warranty.
The NHTSA/DOT only cover safety related defects, the EPA handles emissions recalls (there are 3 different types) and the FTC would be the federal agency to cover engine failures. None of the federal agencies will do anything unless owners complain (which they haven't).
Engine failures aside, if you decide you really want a warranty, make sure you get it from a reputable company that you're sure will be around if you ever need to use it. Many aftermarket companies have gone out of business. This is a huge issue. Caveat emptor.
Thanks...I stand corrected.
Porsche should just take care of anyone with a manufacturing defect like those on the M96 no matter what time has passed if service has been per the manual. Just my 10c (give the customer the pickle).
JB
Read those other threads on engine failure. Then think about how when something goes wrong people tell everyone they know. When things go right, people don't say anything because they're working properly. I don't think it's that big of an issue. Can't worry about everything in life. They're great cars and a blast to drive.
Agreed, well stated! If you know anyone that works in a customer service department ask them the relative ratio between complaints versus compliments. Probably 99.5% versus 0.5%.
When is the last time you read a thread that someone started so they could tell everyone that their engine was operating correctly. If things are working OK, we don't think or talk about them too much, because that is what we EXPECT our cars to so. Only when we are having problem do we mention them, because we are looking for info on how to correct the problem.
Doesn't get past the fact that:
1) There shouldn't be a known manufacturing defect based fault of this kind in any production vehicle without a recall
2) This is the first Porsche engine to suffer such QC based catastrophic engine failures
3) It really does happen, and to far more people than is acceptable
4) Convincing yourself that it's statistically unlikely doesn't make the problem acceptable
5) When the majority of the effected M96 engines are no longer under Porsche warranty, this will become a huge issue for effected owners. (as it already has in Europe where factory warranties are shorter)
Note - Porsche has recently reduced the subsidy on the remanufactured M96 units, and the price has gone up substantially. This is a direct reflection on the number of effected engines that are now out of Porsche warranty or about to drop out of warranty.
Also Note - Warranty direct have recently stopped covering 996/986 cars which have dropped out of Porsche warranty cover. This comes on the back of their damming stats on engine related warranty claims in 996/986 vehicles.
Sure, it's gone from $8k to $12k, and some dealers are now charging $15k
I was speaking to Loren @ 911 Design about this very point this month.
He was lamenting the uplift in his base cost for a remanufactured engine unit so we got into a discussion about the M96 issues and costs.
In his words 'the honeymoon period is over, Porsche are looking to charge a real-world price for these units and stop subsidizing them'.
Probably, maybe, possible, doubful, not likely?
All one has to do is call a few dealerships' service or parts department and ask if they've replaced any engines. Just tell them you're is blown and you want a place that has done it before, if they question you as to why you're asking.
Also, go on Autotrader or Cars.com and type in "New Engine" or something similar in your 996 search. That may help a little.
In his words 'the honeymoon period is over, Porsche are looking to charge a real-world price for these units and stop subsidizing them'.
Maybe Porsche has taken Gordon Gekko's remarks in Wall Street to heart. Here's his closing at a meeting of Teldar Paper stockholders:
Greed is right, greed works. Greed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit. Greed, in all of its forms; greed for life, for money, for love, knowledge has marked the upward surge of mankind. And greed, you mark my words, will not only save Teldar Paper, but that other malfunctioning corporation called the USA. Thank you very much.
It's not greed, it's economics.
While Porsche effectively decided to use the replacement engine strategy, rather than a recall, they subsidized the engines through the dealerships in order to reduce the cost burden and lessen the impact.
As soon as the effected group of engines drops out of Porsche warranty, they are looking at throwing money away if they keep subsidizing these engines in this way.
Why shouldn't they charge their costs plus their standard margin - as they do on everything else.
They do need to make a profit as a company, it's not a charity!
Based on all the superceded part numbers it looks like PAG has reduced their engine inventory to MY05 spec only. It will be interesting to watch how closely future price increases follow the trend of previous models. In 2003 you could buy replacement 964/993 engines for $7800 and now the MSRP is closer to $18k.
Prices are from the February 2007 North American price list (SS means supercedes)
Code:
996-840-051-ax $11246.43 --SS 996100951CX $11506.12
996-840-001-ax $7647.24 --SS 996100996 X $12399.50
996-840-051-bx $9703.26 --SS 996100951DX $11506.12
996-100-996-qx $9346.80 --SS 996100995CX $9534.09
996-100-996-px $9505.07
996-840-001-sx $7647.24 --SS 996100996AX $12399.50
996-840-001-fx $7647.24 --SS 996100996 X $12399.50
996-840-001-jx $7647.22 --SS 996100996AX $12399.50
996-100-996-ax $12399.50
996-100-996-mx $12399.50
996-100-996-cx $9304.96
996-100-996-lx $7190.20 --SS 996100996MX $12399.50
996-100-996-dx $6733.03 --SS 996100995DX $8752.59
996-100-996-ex $6733.03 --SS 996100995BX $8752.59
996-100-996-gx $7493.65 --SS 996100995DX $8752.59
996-100-996-hx $7493.65 --SS 996100995BX $8752.59
996-100-996-jx $7568.60 --SS 996100995DX$8752.59
996-100-996-kx $7568.60 --SS 996100995BX $8752.59
i am not sure if i read it correctly.
so for a MY2001 3.4 C2
996-840-001-fx $7647.24 --SS 996100996 X $12399.50
the price went up to $12399 now?
996-100-996-lx 996-100-996-lx $7190.20 MY01 M96.04 M660 M661 M620 M480
996-100-996-lx $7190.20 --SS 996100996MX $12399.50
Yep
If you look at the published 06 price
996-840-001-fx 996-840-001-06 $7647
You can see the 07 price has gone up to $12399
So a rise of $4752 - that's a 62% uplift
Was there any difference in the years to failure? IE did the production engine receive technical updating as it went along? I have an 04 C4S and I am sitting here scratching my head about whether to start driving like it was going to gernade or hurry up and purchase an extended warranty.
I think the main question is has the engine been receiving engineering updating to the 04 model?
They do need to make a profit as a company, it's not a charity!
LOL Last time I looked Porsche was by far the most profitable car company in the world, but I guess there's always a need for more profit. You may call that good business practice. I call it greed.
I remember reading that Porsche was the most profitable...somewhere.
Idea: Can we change the name of this thread to CEF...I hate seeing 'catastrophic engine failure' every time I check the forum!!
f* that. i saw this coming last year, and was joking about if we could buy a future on my 3.4 replacement.
any way, i will put my car on market then, i am sorry i can't take a $15K loss should anything happen.
or, i will wait and see if any one will start rebuild 996 engine for 8K.
MY 99 - end of MY 01 seem to have the most QC issues to date
Major engine changes from MY02 onwards and the early QC issues appear to have been solved to a great extent.
I have no horse in this race, but something comes to mind and that is.... Since when is a WHOLE ENGINE a replacement part? Why has Porsche not made parts available to rebuild the engines. Blows my mind!!!
THE PARTS ARE AVAILAABLE, but the realistic cost of doing it is beyond what anyone would want to pay. Bewteen parts and labor your going to be 75% OF A completye unit for porsche, and still have all the old accessorys and no warrenty. I
Wow! Thanks for this interesting information. Where does one find the rebuilt engine part #s and what engines/options they apply to? I'm guessing the ones in PET are new engine part #s only. Is the Exchange # the "core"?
WOW that's unfortunate
And I do get the point above on the cost of rebuild vs. value of new.
I just can't get beyond the fact that an engine has become an expendable item. I've owned some 1/2 dozen or more P-cars in my lifetime and the one thing I "thought" always was that the car would last forever no matter the model and when the engine went you replace the necessary seals, bearings, gaskets, etc... and do a nice machining of surfaces and you have a new car. Seems that ideology is now flawed for me
In January I paid $8,129.56 after a core credit of $2,375 at Dean McCrary Porsche in Mobile, AL. I call a Porsche dealer in New Orleans and asked them how much for a engine and they faxed me a quote of $8,129.56 after a core credit of $2,375.
Altogether with TTL I paid just shy of $12,000.
I�m happy with my car but, there always is a but, I still don�t believe any car with less than 70,000 miles much less an $80,000 Porsche should have catastrophic engine failure especially when all maintenance work had been preformed early and the car had been driven normally and never raced.
I don�t know if Porsche is the �most Profitable� but according to Porsche�s Annual Report 2005/06 their EBIT was $2,726,000,000 on sales of $9,397,000,000. That is a profit of 29%! Wow!!!
it�s important to point out that it is the early 3.4- litre engines, made from 1998 to 2000, that are most susceptible to major failure. (99 onwards in the US)
The later 02 onwards 3.6-litre engine is pretty much problem-free.
Also, Porsche made many changes to the 3.4-litre unit over its production life, so the last of these smaller-capacity engines � made in 2001 � tend to be more reliable, but perhaps not as reliable as 02 onwards.
