new here, m3 vs 911 woes

Hey all first post! Just a quick background: Current 2000 328ci (e46) owner looking to upgrade to m3 or 911. Anywho, I'm not gonna ask why should I pay 20k more for the 911 when it has similar perf and not quite as practical (aka rear seats in m3 are better, m3 has more creature comfs, & more std options). I'll just surf the forum myself for more info on that. I'm just posting to say hi as a new member. I'm finding this forum very usefull, and I belong to m3forum.com too (boo... hiss....) Kidding aside, both cars are great IMO. Maybe the only thing I will ask is: Anyone out there who switched from m3 to 911, vice versa, or lucky bums who have both? TIA, Dekard

Don't think you'll find many M3 bashers here. I owned an E39 M5 prior to trading for my first 996 C2. I had also owned a heavily modified B5 S4, so my comments may be useful to you. * The M3 has a better back-seat than the 911, but it's still a coupe and the back seat is still tight enough that no-one is going to want to spend much time back there. * The 911 is about 400 pounds lighter than the M3 (3,415 vs. 3,020 lbs) and you will notice the difference if you push the car at all. * The 911 and the M3 are just about on par in terms of straight line performance. The 911 has a clear edge on the top end as the M3 is electronically limted to 155 mph, but that's unlikely to be a factor as few tracks have enough straightaway for it. * The 911's PSM (if you opt for it) is considerably less invasive than BMW's DSC (not optional). * The 911 gets marginally better gas mileage. * The M3 can be ordered with 19" wheels from the factory whereas the 911 comes with 17" or 18" wheels (if that's important to you). * The 911 has an "electronic dipstick" that tells you the oil level when you first put the key in the ignition. Ironically, it's the M3 that really needs this feature as the M engines have a tendency to burn oil (though your mileage may vary). * The only creature comforts the M3 offers that the 911 does not (as far as I know) are Home Link and SMG. If you want SMG, make sure you test drive a car with it first - it's not for everyone. * The 911, in my opinion, is a much more attractive car than any BMW, and has an exhaust note that is fairer to my ear than my M5 by a wide margin. * Both manufacturers charge a premium, but the M3 is substantially cheaper. In the end, you'll have to test drive both at length and try your best to determine which you'll be happiest with and to what degree the price difference matters. The dealership should also be a factor (unless it's the same one in this case). I can tell you that, in the end, I grew tired of the M5 as a daily driver and it was too heavy to be fun at the track. The 911 is, for me, a far better daily driver and track car and even a better touring car. The 911 feels substantially more buttoned down at speed than any BMW I've driven.

Yep, you're probably not going to see anyone here running down the M3. Everyone here knows they could have bought the M3 instead for less money, so I don't think anyone gets into that "my car is better than yours" defensive posture that you sometimes see on other boards. After getting the RoW m030 installed, I personally think the 996 is more fun and has better feel now than even my E36 M3. Which is saying a lot. It didn't take me long at all to feel "at one" with the car. That's obviously a subjective call, though. I find it much easier and more natural to throttle steer this car than any M I've driven. Again, that's more so after the RoW suspension. This car is less practical, certainly, than the M3. I appreciate that difference more now. Fortunately, this is a weekend car for me so that's not a big issue. But if this is a daily driver for you, think twice (or thrice) about that. Steering is phenomenal, even with the stock suspension. Much better than the relatively numb feeling of the E46 M3 and even the E39 M5. All 3 cars (E39 M5, E46 M3, and 996) have more power than I have skill, so that's not an issue for me. I hope to invest in some better skill next year so I can justify a Turbo. As Jim said, the weight difference is noticeable in the handling of the car. The car gets more attention from a broader audience than the M3, which is good and bad. (Mostly bad, I guess, unless you're into that sort of thing.)

You didn't specify if you were shopping new or pre-owned, but for the price of a new 996, you could: 1. Pick up a used 996 (prices are very low right now) 2. Use the change to get a used S4 (2001.5 if possible) if you're in a snowy climate; add a $600 chip upgrade for a 320+ HP sleeper This is the fleet I'm running and couldn't be happier. Ed

send PM to suwipin or anir on 993 board. they had E46M3 and sold/traded to 993 in a few months. i had E36M3, E36/8 M coupe.. they are easier to drive fast than 993/996's. it's hard to say which car you will like, however, they drive so differently that i think a test drive back to back on some curvy roads will easily sway you one way or another. of course, this is a p car board, so we are all biased ;o)

i still run with the bmw guys. my avatar was a 2-day i did with them last summer. the m3 guys like to wax p-cars every chance they get and i can confidently say the e46 m3 is a match in every regard for a na 996. forget magazine road tests that show the p-car a tenth quicker here or the m3 a tenth better there... they have different chasis dynamics and show advantages on-track in different ways. for instance, i could consistently out-brake any m3 from tipple digit speeds--even guys with r-compound rubber. on course, there were strange trasitions that upset me that didn't matter to m3s, so consequently they gained ground over me. at speed they pull about equal, at fontana we were equal to about 125-130 before braking hard for the first chicane. interestingly, many m3ers came around to ask about p-car ownership and said it would be there next acquisition--even though their bimmers were about equal (performanc-wise). they admitted that owning a p-car was next on their list.

i should mention we saw 113 degrees ambient and 140+ track temps(!) at fontana and never did my car skip a beat. this, without the 3rd radiator and stock pads (my rotors blued, but no big deal). more than a few e46 m3s warped their rotors and many--if not most-- e36s suffered from over-cooked brakes.

I traded an E46 M3 SMG for a MY04 GT3. Have driven bimmers and Porsches for many years. Thought the SMG would be fun (as close as I'll ever get to JPM!) but I got tired of it after a few months and wished for a regular manual again. The M3 is a performance bargain but it just isn't a Porsche. The 911 GT3 sounds, and brakes much better than the M3. The M3 was a great car but doesn't stir the soul like a 911 does...

The M3 is a sure fast piece of kit. But so is the 911. There isn't anything that the M3 does for me that the 911 can't do better. I am not sure if the build quality is any better than the 911 though and that's my only gripe. But the M3 is still just a 360i when you look at it. You can't compare the 911 with the M3 in looks. There is absolutely no comparison. Ones just a coupe, the other is a drop dead gorgious sports car. You see an M3 and WTF, you see a 911 and you go wow baby! Which one would you rather be seen driving down the road in:

I had a 98 M3 and have driven the new M3s. Hated the SMG. They just don't put a smile on my face like a 911 does. Spend a few days driving a 911 and you will understand why it costs more and why its worth.

I sold a perfect 1996 993 coupe with 26,000 miles on it to purchase the m3, what a mistake I never really liked the smg and have no faith in the long term reliability of the m3 engine still reading about engine failures on 03.5 m3. I have since sold the m3 and now own a 1995 993 cab a much better drivers car and a much more reliable power plant.

I agonized over the same decision earlier this year. First, I removed the money delta from the equation by looking at new M3's and used 996's. Most used 996's with low mileage are in such great condition, they are hard to tell apart from new, so they might as well be! So if you can just focus on M3 vs 996 without price delta as a factor, it makes things easier (sort of). Even though they are both awesome cars, they are very different. To me, the M3 is a very high performance daily driver whereas the 996 is a very daily-driveable high performance car. I know performance figures are neck-and-neck across the board, but after test driving them several times, to me the M3 felt more like a fast sedan and just didn't have the same "seat of the pants" raw power and handling sensation that the 996 had. My wife who rode with me during my test drives agreed. From her perspective (from the passenger seat), the 996 was more impressive. After driving the M3 (which she thought was nice), we drove the 996. After I rowed through 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and as I shifted into 4th through a sweeping corner she looked at me and said "No comparison! There is no decision here!". The 996 was exactly what she imagined a 60K+ sports car experience should be. After driving them both for hours I had to agree... I also talked to a race driving instructor who teaches on both M3s and 996s. His comment was that the 50/50 balance of the M3 made most novice drivers feel more a bit more comfortable at speed initially than in the 996. However as the driver�s skills advanced, they ultimately went faster around the track in the 996. Not to dis the M3 by any means. It is a terrific car and I'd love to own one (as long as I could keep my 996 as well). The rear seats are certainly more usable and if you have large children, they are a consideration. However, my kids fit just fine in the 996 and will be comfortable up until they are about 12-13 years old. The M3 is probably a bit more "comfortable" as a daily driver, but my 996 goes to work every sunny day and I couldn't be happier. If you lean toward the M3, the SMG decision is another tough one. I thought it was incredibly cool, but I'm not sure how I'd like living with it after the novelty wore off. M3 owners are split about the SMG, so drive it a lot before you decide. Reliability is yet another concern. Most hard data I've read suggests that Porsche has quite the upper hand here. The last aspect I would offer for consideration is the amount of attention that the cars get. The M3 is a wolf in sheep's clothing whereas the 996 is quite an attention getter. If you want attention, you'll love the 996. If you like running in stealth mode, the M3 may be better for you. The good news is that you can't make a bad decision here! Both cars are world class. Go test drive them both - one of them will speak to you...

Thanks for all the replies. I'm still debating however. I know if I bought an M3 it would be brand new 2004. If I bought a 996 it most likely would be a slightly used or discount lot 2003 model. I really want the newer 996 with the more rigid body and 320 hp stock. Dealers in the SF bay area still have a lot of 2003's sitting around just waiting to be sold. Most have very little mileage, mostly from test drives I assume. Yes, I did get to test drive both. The porsche dealer actually treated me a little nicer than the bmw dealer. I was straight up honest with the sales guy about considering the m3 as well. So he told me to come back the next morning and he let me test drive 2 911's! the regular coupe and the awd (c4 is it?) model. I didnt notice the difference between the 2 911's, but I guess I would if I drove it more. At bmw I had to practically twist the salesguys arm to go out for a test drive, I guess he assumed I was just some guy who wanted to go out for a spin Both are great cars, the 911 got to me somehow, its hard to describe. That engine sound going from 2nd to 3rd was sheer music to my ears! And one thing that really bugs me about the m3 are the engine failures. I read about that on m3forum.com, they still occur even with 2003 models with SMG! The max hp is at 7900, redline is 8000... thats not much margin for error. Granted everyone breaks redline once in a while by accident, but I dont want the thing blowing up on me if I do it a few times! Anyway, thanks again for the feedback, Dek

I had to have the engine recall on my M3 where they replaced the rod bearings and the oil pump. Was a pain as I took to a dealer 3 hours away because my local dealer had never done it and I wasn't going to be their guinea pig! If you read the forums at Roadfly.com you'd think every other M3 had an engine blow up- I never had trouble with mine and the bearings looked fine when they came out. Had to go thru another break-in period afterwards though! Another PITA! Have NEVER regretter selling it to get the 911...

My e36 M3 sedan was awesome, while the stock suspension on my '99 996 cab was almost scary in bumpy corners. The row m030 suspension cured that fantastically, and now the 911 drives like what it is reputed to be - an affordable supercar! If you're driving either - and especially if you learn to drive either well - you are living well - at least when it comes to cars!

My $0.02 I was sort of in in your same boat. I debated the m3 an 996 for a good two years. In the end I made a very emotionally based decision to buy the 996. If value was my main issue I would have gotten the m3 or perhaps a vette. But the very unsophisticated reason I choose the 996 was b/c it was my dream car for as long as I could remember! I new that nothing else would satisfy. When me and my buddies sat around as kids and speculated what we would do if we hit the lottery they dreamed of ferrari's and lamborghini's...I dreamed of 911's Now in the future who know's? Maybe I will "get over it" But for now, every day I get not into a car, but into a dream.

Well said, Jason. I avoided getting a 911 for years, because on paper it didn't seem to be worth it, and it was always too flashy. But I finally decided to go for it, and I can see many happy driving years ahead of me.

is may seem trite to say but "there is no substitute" if you can't afford a 911--get a boxter. imo, the m3 is vastly overtuned. it should not require7900 rpm to achieve max hp. the m3 is also not a sports car but merely a fast sedan. if you want a sedan-- check out the audi s4--v-8, awd and 4 doors. a nicer ride for less money than the m3. if you want a sports car... porsche! my 2 cents!

Well, to be fair to the M3, it does have a much more fun, sports car-like, feel than the S4. I know what you're saying, on paper it's just a tuned 3-series BMW. But in reality, it's a lot more special than that. And I think a lot more special than the S4.

Both are great cars. .... At the beginning you will be surprised by the understeer of the Porsche. BMW is easier to drive (When you don't own a Porsche you still think that it oversteers ). After some time you will find that the Porsche is REALLY fast and it behaves beautifully! I owned an M5 for ...eight years! and now own a 996Turbo AS WELL AS a 528 BMW. Difficult decision. At the end, if you have to decide between the two, and you love sports cars, YOU WILL shift - if you can afford it - to a Porsche. If you have a Porsche and you are looking for a Sport Car ( Call it GT if you want ), you are not going to shift for a BMW !! I decided to have a BMW as a family car and a Porsche as a Sport Car. The only thing I can tell you that if look for practicality, the BMW will be the choice. If you care for something else that probably can not be strictly measured... than the Porsche. No way back.

My favorite differences in favor of the Porsche are steering feel, much better brakes (if you track), and more entertaining rear-engined handling. However, M3 has nicer interior quality...

I was also trying to decide what car to get...I even ordered an M3 and put a $1k deposit on it. I made the mistake (haha) of Test Driving a 911 and the rest is history. Bought the 911 the next day and got my $1k deposit back from BMW within a few weeks. The main deciding factor was that the 911 just felt better to me. Also, 911's seem more rare on the road.

Same story for me. I ordered an M3 and bought the 911 a few days before it arrived.

I was driving an E46 Dinan 3, it was hot when I first got it in 1999...then 2003 came along and it got old. I was contemplating on another E46 M3 SMG or a 911. I could'nt decide so I bought both cars. I did not end up with the SMG though. Just as the previous posters mentioned, the M3 is a coupe with comfort and luxury. The 911 is a noisey, uncomfortable and harsh riding sports car. But it does look waaaay cooler than the M3. My piece of very important advise....Don't bother buying a plain jane 911, it will get old pretty quick and you'll find yourself maxing out your credit cards to make it look hot. Get at least a 911 anniversary, C4S coupe or cabrio or better yet a GT3. Stay away from the pre-owned models, you'll be sorry that you'll driving the last-last-last years model, you'll feel inferior when an 04' drives past you. Just my two cents.

I had the same choice The BMW M3 is an exceptional car My choice was simple ....If I needed a 4 seater car -----the M3 would be my choice, a 2 seater ---- the Porsche, I only required a 2 seater as like most P owners I have second 4 seat saloon. Donny J

I recently had the opportunityto drive my friend's 2002 M3 around the Streets of Willow, and I let him drive my 2001 Carrera (w/ sports suspension) around. I noticed that in terms of straight acceleration both cars are very similar, but that is where the similarities end. The shifter of the M3 has shorter throws, but the shifter felt fragile (like if I pulled on it too hard it would have broke), the clutch was non communicative and long compared to the 911. The brakes were not as good as the 911's but still very good. The sterring (wheel) was very nice, and the seats are better in the M3. The exhaust tone was more docile than my 911's (definitely could use an aftermarket exhaust). Overall the M3 is a great car if it is for everyday driving, ut if you intend to do any consistent track driving, or want a "spotier" feel for your car I would highly recommend the 911. After getting out of his car I was glad I had my 911, even he stated that my car was "a level above" his car interms of handling/track driving.

to me the m3 is neither a good sports car nor a good sedan. it is too stiff for a sedan with poor rear seat space. it is deficient as a sports car because of its overtuned fragile engine. finally its boy racer styling is off putting compared to real sports cars like porsches or even nissan 350z's. the m5 is a different story--an excellent comfortable sedan that goes like a bat out of hell. too bad it's out of production. the new model 5 series sedan is incredibly ugly in the back with its "bangle bustle". i fear that bmw is going into a bad patch. darn shame

I drove the M5 and was totally unenthused. 2 months ago I was looking for a daily driver because I was putting about 2k a month on my TT. Yes, it was quick, big, comfy and etc., but it it was easy to pass up for Porsche # 4. The M5 is just not as exciting as a Porsche. My girls are 7 and 8 and fit in my 911s for the time being. One day, however, I will be forced to consider something like an M5 and AMG.

i never meant for the m5 to be compared to 911! the m5 is simply the best sedan available--very fast and stealthy but no sports car. when your girls get to be 10 and 11 an m5 will seem more useful than now. in the meantime enjoy your tt--imo, the best daily driver ever made--enjoy all 2k mi/mo. you only live once

Agreed. My BMW vs Porsche story. I have owned two M coupes (the ugly Z3 based ones). A 99 S52 and more recently a 2002 S54. Both silver, both a heck of a lot of fun, the former worked over a bit to the point of being a real auto-x go kart. When considering the first M coupe I drove a new 99 996. At the time I felt the coupe was a bargain, perhaps 90 percent of the car for 50 percent of the price. Another consideration was the terrible pre-sales experience my wife and I had at both local Denver dealers. If you did not look at least 30, they were not interested. When considering the S54 I went back and drove another 996 and made the same decision again, simply put the S54 M coupe was faster .. or at least felt faster (on paper it's so close whose counting) and it was a bit more visceral, at the expense of handling and refinement, the P-car wins hands down in this department. Still, after the purchase my heart was still yearning for a Porsche. I found myself staring at them at stoplights and in parking lots. After 8 months I gave in and purchased a 2002 911 Turbo. IMO given the depreciation the turbos are currently seeing if you are considering moving from an M car, be it the E46M3 or S54MCoupe or M5, the turbo is a more logical step forward than the N/A 996 -- which is by no means a bad car in it's own regard, just not so different in some ways. On the other hand, if you are coming from a 328, a bargain priced 2001 or so 996 is going to be a heck of a lot of fun and a good rung in the ladder on your way to ... well whatever. -Steve.

Thanks Steve, I know the feeling about having to look 30 I'm 32 and still get carded sometimes The Porsche sales people really "took me in", were a lot friendlier than BMW, maybe business is really bad, hehe they are desparate. Nevertheless, I am starting to lean towards the 911. Options I'm thinking of including: 1.) Engine tune to up hp to 345 2.) Standard 17" wheels (do I really want 18") ? 3.) Leather all around. Mad cows must be good for something? 4.) Maple wood interior (the lesser one) 5.) Power seats/heated seats/lumbar, rear window wiper I would get as #6 the cd changer in the trunk, but I really want a cd changer that plays MP3's. I know Alpine makes one for BMW, not sure for Porsche, anyone know about that? Also anyone know much about the engine tune besides whats described on the porsche website? Is it a big difference? Thanks again.

Dear Dekard The X51 kit makes a big ,big difference, I would suggest that you upgrade to sports suspension and Sat Nav the latter being an important feature in resale ease. The full electric seats are very useful. Donny J

dekard, Full leather is a great option - good choice. However, don't forget (IMO) the most important option available: PSM. It could save your life...

Dekard, You have private mail!

Dekard, great choice. FWIW, I've ran in the last 1 1/2 year with an M3 on the track, and I would have to say I have a much easier time in going fast than the M3. We both have a whale of a time chasing each other, or rather him chasing me and me running away . With regards to the X51, do a search with the key words "power kit" and other words you can think of. There have been numerous debates on whether this is worth it or not. IMHO, this does add 25 HP, but you retain the same torque, and torque is what determines performance. There is a negligible increase in measured acceleration performance, but this is negligible enough that it can be attributed to sampling error. Not worth the money. If you want to spend on HP, go for the GT3. Just my .02. You are missing a few good options. Rather than the x51, get: 1. PSE = great sound 2. PSM = great life saver just in case 3. 030 = great cornering power 4. 18" wheels = go lightweight, better cornering. One other way is to get the standard 17", then go for aftermarket 18"s. 5. Bixenons = the better to see with, my dear. Sounds. Who cares about CD's and MP3's if you have the PSE and the wind? Anywho, if you really want good tunes, you are better off getting aftermarket.

I would agree that the GT3 is more cost effective than the X51, probably. Especially since the GT3 has a entirely different engine (and chassis, and brakes), not just a modification to the standard engine. Another option you might want to consider is getting the stock suspension and then adding the RoW m030 after delivery. The USA m030 is a little higher from the RoW one. And, yes, the full leather is very nice. I wasn't sure I'd appreciate it, but I really do. I will definitely get this in my next Porsche, even if it's the GT3. As far as the resell value of SatNav, it depends on how long you are keeping the car. If you're going to keep the car 5-6 years, then having an obsolete Nav may not help you that much. Remember by then Nav systems will probably have real time traffic or much nicer interfaces or be much faster with better routes. So the 2004 porsche Nav (which is already well behind other manufacturer's systems) will probably be pretty unimpressive in 2009-2010.

I definately support all the guys who vote for the 996! Eventhough I never owned the new M3 model, I still have a former model 3 series convertible (95 model) in my garage, and also had the previous model (90) 3 series convertible. Since a couple of months I did however bought my first 996, and I am happy as a little boy with this great awesome car. From the different road tests, I may assume that the performance of both cars are really great, however I think I may speak for other members on the rennlist, you also buy a Porsche for the personal association that you feel with a car, performance (of course), the history, the class of people who buys this type of cars and the perception other people have of YOU owning a porsche. If I see a former 911 model on the road (994, 964, or even the classic 911) I see a person driving who chose to be in a more expensive than average car, a person who knows what he wants, and a person who does not give a sj... about other wannafree road pirates, he does not have to prove himself, because he drives a porsche anyway... If I see an older model BMW, (328, M3 all the same), I see a young guy " wannabee the MAN!!" This guy could have just upgraded from a "cool lowered Acura" (in the USA), in Europe he could be a "former Opel" driver...with a lot of spoilers... This BMW driver is so insecure about himself, that he is trying to show off whereever he goes..., who want to race with him @ traffic light, who corners quicker than him, and he even lowers himself to race with other Japanese "dicky toy cars"... To summarize, I just see a loser..., this person does not deserve to be owning a Porsche...and most likely he never will be... The person who started this topic needs to look within himself in what category he wants to be, a friendly sales guy....a free cup of coffee at the dealer ...will not decide for you, I hope... Other fellow rennlisters, did I miss anything?

i still own a 2001 bmw 3.0i z3 coupe. it is funny looking but was a great bargain and is great fun to drive. my wife loves it but is looking forward to our buying a 996 turbo in about a year so she can drive our c4s this is trickle down economics at its best!

Dekard: Exhaust and PSM. The two most important upgrades. You won't be dissapointed with the stock power but X51 if you can afford it. But PSM may save your life and PSE (I would rather have Fabspeed but that's my own preference) makes sweet music out your rear end

Hmmm... I don't agree with this at all. 911 is much more flashy car, surely insecure showoff would get 911 before "blend into crowd" M3 which has quite similar performance. That is of course if your theory has any credibility? Now that's a mature attitude but fortunately it seems to be very rare in this board so far Incidentally I'm looking to buy a used M3 or 996 during next few months so I am checking this board out to get more information about 996. I have already quite lot of knowledge about M3 but 996 is somewhat new territory for me but I like learning about new things! I'm looking to buy a daily driver which should work well on snow (I will be using the car in finland) but I really don't need the backseats. I will drive the car on track whenever it's possible. On insurances there is virtually nothing between 996 and M3 in finland so that is not an issue. But I'm afraid that services and parts are the killer with the Porsche. There is only few place in finland where you can service your Porsche and I'm not sure if they are in anyway authorized. On the other hand, you can take your M3 to pretty much any BMW workshop to get it serviced, a big plus.