Arrggh....996 or M3..long winded.

Hey guys, first post around here so 'hello!' I know this has been asked before but I'm going crazy trying to make a decision here. I had my last car (96 Eclipse spyder) for the past 7 years. Several things bugged me about it, but it was generally reliable and paid for so I wasn't really in the market for another car. Then some guy plows into me from behind and totals it so now I'm looking. I had always said that when I finally replaced it I wanted something rear wheel drive with more power and a little more room, definitely non-cabrio. Where I live (Clearwater) also has a lot of traffic and although I didn't really want an auto it would be a lot less punishing in stop-n-go traffic. When I saw that 2002- M3's were coming with SMG I thought that would really be the best of both worlds. Then I started reading some of these forums! Wow. From what I've read the M3 engine just really seems to be overtuned and it makes me wonder about the long-term reliability of both the engine and the SMG system. I'm also not planning on buying one brand new since the depreciation is just so brutal. So when I started looking at used M3's (2001 and 2002) I noticed that most of them were generally priced well above (!) 99-00 P996's. I hadn't really considered buying a Porsche before that but the 99-00 cars were in my price range and had already taken the big chunk of their depreciation hit. Aside from certain issues like the RMS problems they also seem to be not tuned to the ragged edge which would also conceivably help with durability. Then again repair costs for the Porsche also seem to be higher so it's probably a wash. The way I see it is as follows: M3 pros: SMG option, powerful, can carry 4 people, bigger trunk, more 'low key' profile M3 cons: various engine problems, drivetrain durability?, higher price, likely greater depreciation, will styling look 'dated' in 4 years?, image is that these cars get pretty abused by their owners, much more 'chest thumping' type behaviour in m3 forums 996 pros: reasonable price, timeless styling, good power, probably better resale value in the future, 996 cons: RMS problems, not really suitable for more than 1 passenger, much less storage space, much higher profile car I know a number of you guys have had both of these cars and was curious on your take given the information above. Also a couple of questions: 1-can you fit any golf clubs at all in the bonnet of a 996 C2? 2-how is the tiptronic reliability? 3-were total repair costs (pretend no warranty) higher for the BMW or Pcar? I haven't driven either one of these particular cars and the BMW/Porsche dealership nearby didn't seem the least bit interested in letting me drive anything whatsoever (I guess I looked to young or you can't wear jeans to the dealership and do a testdrive or something...whatever....nevermind that I could've written a check for one right on the spot). ust one more reason not to go the dealership as far as I'm concerned. In the end I know it just comes down to choosing which one I want to live with but I don't want to make the wrong decision since I'll probably be hanging on to the car for at least 5 years. Sorry this was so damned long I'm just looking for some insight here. Thanks for any assistance, Keith

Keith, I'm in the same boat you are! I currently drive a 2000 328ci and was thinking of upgrading to the M3 for 2004. That is until I test drove a 911 You really need to take them out for a test drive. I'm 32 and look younger, dressed in jeans and got to test drive 2 911's! The cab and c4s coupe. Best bet is to strike up a conversation with the salesperson, telling them you are seriously considering the 911 or m3. Dont ask for a testdrive at least until you are 10 minutes into the conversation. I drove the M3 as well, ironically had a tougher time getting a test drive from BMW! The SMG is great, but it does take some getting used to. If one dealer wont give you a test drive go to another. Honestly, either way you go you will be grinning ear to ear Reliability wise JD Power ranked Porsche number 4 in overall reliability for 2003 1.) Lexus 2.) Honda 3.) Buick (strange i know) 4.) Porsche Toyata was 6 or 7 I believe, BMW was somewhere in the middle. Were about 30 car companies listed. If you dig deep enough you'll find the link on this forum. Good luck, Dek

I'm not a long time owner of either car, but I just bought my 996 last week. I also looked at M3's before I decided on a Porsche. My take: M3 is a souped up sedan, Porsche is a true sports car. Yes, the M3 is fast, but when I test drove one it felt edgy, and like I'd have to work a bit to drive it quickly and smoothly. For me, there was no comparison to the Porsche, which drove smoothly and just did whatever I wanted it to do. I was really in the market for a sports car; while I liked the flexibility of the M3 sedan body, I knew right away that if I bought it I'd still want to buy a Porsche to have a "real" sports car. For the record, I test drove a '99 996 C2 and an '02 M3 on the same day. BMW dealer let me drive a used one, but said they don't like to test drive new ones. Gnome '01 C2

I was in your shoes Keith, I came from owning a '95 Eclipse GSX. I had a deposit/order in for a fully loaded M3 and also a CLK500. Then I went to made the mistake of test driving a brand new 996, that changed everything. Porsche was not even an option, but when the sales person told me what discount I could get and what my monthly payments would be it was almost in the same ballpark as the other cars. Needless to say I bought the 996 the next day after 3hrs of bargining. Since then I haven't looked back. Here are my thoughts and again they are just my opinions� Porsche seems to just be a better car all around. Service and sales at Porsche dealerships (in my area) is friendlier. If the Porsche was going to be my only car I might have gone with the M3 since it can fit 4 passengers, but it�s not. The people I�ve met so far on the boards are great, very friendly and helpful. I feel like I�ve bought into a club/lifestyle/history than just a car. Not as common of a car as an M3. You look at a Porsche and you KNOW what it is, sometimes you look at an M3 and it can be mistaken as a regular 3 Series car. Porsche is very addictive and changes your life. Now I spend more time in the garage, sometimes just to look at the car. I enjoy long drive which I didn�t before. I've always wanted a Porsche and finally had the chance to get one. I could always get an M3 later in life, but wouldn't that be going backwards in a way? (that statement says it all doesn't it?) Watch out! These boards are dangerous! They teach you to Mod and accessorize your car which can get $$$. Bottom line is either way you go you can't lose, both are great cars and fun to drive.

Itzkirb, I just noticed your sig, selling your 996? I hope that your not getting rid of your 996 for a bmw.

haha, no...thinking about a TT or GT3

Was thinking about selling the C2 for the M3 (needed more room, my son is getting taller). Like many have said before, the M3's versatility was tempting. It would have been more comfortable and the M IS fast. More balanced and easy to drive fast. But then what's the challenge? After the test drive, I hopped into my C2 headed for home. I don't know how to describe it but the C2 just felt..... different (in a good way). The C2 is more involved, more fun. In the end, I just couldn't do it. Although my daily driver isn't anywhere as fun as the C2.... I'll just have to suffer until I can go out by myself. =) Besides, the Porsche community is awesome, very friendly and lots of driving events among other events.

Over on this side of the Atlantic, M3s are now a common sight, and nearly new SMG optioned cars are in virtually every dealership (check the BMW.co.uk site and see how many you can find). Not good for residuals? They are not as well made as Porsches, my 12 month old 328CiSE suffered a number of agrravating build problems and the paint chipped very easily. And as for those ****ing MVX wheels - words almost fail me - and then they put the crappiest make of tyres (D....p) on them which fall to pieces as soon as you look at a kerb stone, not to mention the wheelies. I've been the happy owner of a 911 for 2 years now. There is nothing else on the market that gives so many smiles per mile (sorry about the alliteration, so passe)!

I went through the same decision process between an M3 or 996. Here's my take: the M3 is a 3 series with a hot motor and suspension. In order to get the rush from the M3 you need to have it spinning in ultra illegal territory. I felt the Porsche has more low end grunt, an effortless joy to drive at normal speeds and sublime when pushed. The sounds and feel of the Porsche are far superior, the practicality of the M3 is obvious. The final test was putting my teenage boys as passengers in both cars, they thought the M3 was awesome but the 996 is simply in a far higher plane, there is an excitement there which you have to experience. The Porsche is an automotive legend, the M3 a great car.

You won't get your clubs in the trunk of a 911, it's a very deep space, but it's not wide enough for a bag. Most people will put the bag in the passenger seat, or remove the woods and put it across the back seat shelves. It's a little inconvenient, but well worth the hassle when you consider how much more fun driving to the course will be. The 996 trunk is surprisingly useful; it will take a very large suitcase, and it even fit my 79 Fender Vibrolux guitar amp with no problem. As for dealers in the Clearwater area, I'd stay away from Bert Smith and try Reeves in Tampa, or Suncoast down in Sarasota. Reeves has BMW, too, so you might be able to go back to back there. Golf ... jeez ... you know it's cold when you look at the weather page in Boston Globe, see it's going to be a high of 22 tomorrow, and think, "Ah, good, it's warming up!" Vic 99 C2 cab

have had two M3s - the E36 and E46 (still have the E46 in an SMG) and two 911s - the 993 and the 996 cabs (still have the 996 cab). the M3 is a great car - for my wife. i love driving it from time to time cause it's such a fun "cruising" the road kind of car. however, it's put to shame everytime i get back in the 996 in terms of which one is the sports car. the 996 is so much more crisp, responsive and feedback full. also, the M3 is mechanically a crappier car and BMW service is several notches below Porsche (or most other car manufacturers for that matter). if you do go with the used M3, be very careful since most of them have the **** driven out of them and with their very suspect engine...

I was going to buy a M3 (my wife has a BMW wagon) but reading another board, talked me out of it. They are STILL having engines blow up with-in the first 20k miles. I'd rather deal with the RMS trouble... The back seat of a M3 or 3 series coupe is not much more useful than the back seats in a P-car. That's why we bought the wagon...headroom. For me it still comes down to this...I've ALWAYS wanted a Porsche, ALWAYS. I'm lucky in that my wife wants me to have a 911 since her wagon is fast enough for her... My decision is now, 993 or 996! -PK

Sold a E46 M3 SMG for a GT3. Thought the SMG would be fun (like I could play JPM!) and my wife would drive it most of the time anyway. Got tired of the SMG after a few months- neither one of us ever used the auto mode. A great car for the $$ but it's no 911. They are totally different animals. Drive them both and see which one fits your bill... do a search as there are several of these M3 vs 911 threads here and at funcarsonline.com.

I've owned both, and both are great cars, but here's a few thoughts: 1) 911's depreciate too - I bought mine in 2003 w/17K miles for roughly 50% of the original sticker. Nice for me! 2) BMW's are better finished than 911's in general. Mine was heavily optioned, but the stock interior, stereo, etc., is crap compared to a BMW. 3) Warranties are important in both cases. My 911 has had a substantial amount of work done under warranty, including new mufflers (welds broke, leading to a God-awful rattling at idle). Dealers vary, and you want a good one, though you generally have more to choose from with BMW. And Porsches are not immune to engine failure; a recent post on this board described a few. 4) 911's are sold as luxury cars, and the stock suspension reflects that. Mine drove like a boat. $2500 later with the RoW M030, mine drive likes a high-performance car. The M3 does this right out of the box 5) new models hurt the price of existing cars, and the 997 will hurt 996 values just as the e46 M3 has hurt the value of the e36 M3. The 996 is an awesome car, but the M3 is no dog. Which is faster on the track would probably be close, and the driver's skill would be far more important than the car. If you want a sports car you'l pass on the tiptronic, and I would skip the SMG as well. Your traffic's not that bad, I've lived there! And all this BS about a sports car vs. not a sports car reminds me of the guys who say that no real sports car has a hard top, or roll-up windows, etc! Since I've got a Cab I guess I'll say that only ragtops are REAL sports cars!

Based on your situation as I read it, I dare say that psychologically, if you end up with the M3 rather than the 911 you WILL regret it, but it won't be a logical regret... just another one of those many things in life you could have done but didn't.

I've had both, all three actually, inc. the Eclipse. Get the Porsche, you know you are anyway. It's the best choice, but you already sense that.

1-can you fit any golf clubs at all in the bonnet of a 996 C2? ___________ NO WAY. 2-how is the tiptronic reliability? ___________ if you are interested in tiptronics, maybe you should look into itskirby's car. he's got a nice one for sale. 3-were total repair costs (pretend no warranty) higher for the BMW or Pcar? ___________ porsche is a lot higher as i have had both.

K996, here is a comment I provided in an earlier thread on Rennlist on the same subject... -- I agonized over the same decision earlier this year. First, I removed the money delta from the equation by looking at new M3's and used 996's. Most used 996's with low mileage are in such great condition, they are hard to tell apart from new, so they might as well be! So if you can just focus on M3 vs 996 without price delta as a factor, it makes things easier (sort of). Even though they are both awesome cars, they are very different. To me, the M3 is a very high performance daily driver whereas the 996 is a very daily-driveable high performance car. I know performance figures are neck-and-neck across the board, but after test driving them several times, to me the M3 felt more like a fast sedan and just didn't have the same "seat of the pants" raw power and handling sensation that the 996 had. My wife who rode with me during my test drives agreed. From her perspective (from the passenger seat), the 996 was more impressive. After driving the M3 (which she thought was nice), we drove the 996. After I rowed through 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and as I shifted into 4th through a sweeping corner she looked at me and said "No comparison! There is no decision here!". The 996 was exactly what she imagined a 60K+ sports car experience should be. After driving them both for hours I had to agree... I also talked to a race driving instructor who teaches on both M3s and 996s. His comment was that the 50/50 balance of the M3 made most novice drivers feel more a bit more comfortable at speed initially than in the 996. However as the driver�s skills advanced, they ultimately went faster around the track in the 996. Not to dis the M3 by any means. It is a terrific car and I'd love to own one (as long as I could keep my 996 as well). The rear seats are certainly more usable and if you have large children, they are a consideration. However, my kids fit just fine in the 996 and will be comfortable up until they are about 12-13 years old. The M3 is probably a bit more "comfortable" as a daily driver, but my 996 goes to work every sunny day and I couldn't be happier. If you lean toward the M3, the SMG decision is another tough one. I thought it was incredibly cool, but I'm not sure how I'd like living with it after the novelty wore off. M3 owners are split about the SMG, so drive it a lot before you decide. Reliability is yet another concern. Most hard data I've read suggests that Porsche has quite the upper hand here. The last aspect I would offer for consideration is the amount of attention that the cars get. The M3 is a wolf in sheep's clothing whereas the 996 is quite an attention getter. If you want attention, you'll love the 996. If you like running in stealth mode, the M3 may be better for you. The good news is that you can't make a bad decision here! Both cars are world class. Go test drive them both - one of them will speak to you...

Keith, As you've heard, you can't fit clubs in the bonnet, but you can definitely fit them in the back seat of the cab. My fiance and I go play alot in the summer, and 2 bags fit no problem. Take out the woods, lay them across the back floor, then put the bags in. (Or just leave your bag at the club :-) Can't speak to tip reliability (6spd), but the stick is not that onerous that you shouldn't consider it (I'd put NYC traffic up against Clearwater traffic any day, and I have no problems) The JD survery should give you some confidence, but **** happens, so look for a porsche certified car, that'll give you a warranty up to 100k and 2 extra years, cause when stuff goes, it Pricey. All that said, one of my best friends has an 03 M3 and absolutely loves it, hasn't had many issues with it (just a broken Nav Sys I think), but the day he drove my car he was amazed. Test drive both and see for yourself, they are both great cars, just different...

When you put the golfbag on the folded down back seats put some foam or bubble stuff between the bag and the side walls of the carrera or it will mark it. Donny J

I have a 2002 C4 Coupe. I bought an M3 CSL in September - with the intention that I keep one. The M3 has 1. The best induction roar 2. The best seats 3. The ability to awe by standers 4. Fabulous SMG change It took me 40 miles to decide to keep the 996 and sell the CSL. The 996 is a compreehnsively engineered sports car - rather than the 9th best selling saloon car with bits added on. Incidentally, the best 3 series is the 330d. I had one for a couple of years and adored it. Spizz

You have not driven either car??? There in truly lie the problem. I came real close to getting a new SMG as a daily driver to save a little money. I really was not that enthusiatic about the SMG or the car. I also knew that whenever I drove it and saw a Porsche, I would be wishing I had bought another Porsche to drive daily. In reality, the M3 would have sat in my driveway and I would have continued racking up the miles on my TT or my Ruf if I would have bought the M3. The 996 has more than ample room for my 7 and 8 year old. I may be in trouble in a couple of years though. The only advantage I saw in getting the M3 was to save money and actually, the lease on the new Porsche worked out to about the same payments as the lease on a loaded SMG. You only live once and the P-Car truly has no substitute once you get hooked on them.

If you're having troubles that side of the state getting a test drive, come down to Orlando. The sales department has been great with me both times I bought from them! Go see James if you do... he sold me both my cars and kept me updated the whole way during the build and shipping processes (still waiting on the c2). Now, about driving the 2, one of my friends has an e46 M3, and to be honest I feel the 996 to be a better car over all, reputationwise and qualitywise. His m3's been in the shop more than on the road! Also, around here, e46's are as common as hondas, whereas you see much fewer P-cars in general... Ed

went thru the similar selection process and bought P-car. No regrets only bliss..

"1. The best induction roar" which is wholly drown out with the windows or top down by a rattly metal sound "3. The ability to awe by standers" they are in awe at how a bmw can sound so cheap and crappy (that metal rattle) when you put your foot in it.

Having been into BMW's I too was in the M3 vs 996 dilemma. To me it was the test drive that swung the vote to the 996. The steering, suspension, and feel of the road was more precise, and I think the 996 was better looking. The RMS issue with the 996 seems to be less of a concern than the E46 BMW bottom end issues. I'm considering getting a roof rack for the golf clubs, but as mentioned above you can get 2 sets of clubs in the back seat with a little effort. Besides, back in my college days I got a ride in a brand new targa (while hitchhiking home from school). He drove me over the winding "notch" in Amherst, MA. It had just 254 miles on it and I remember to this day how amazed I was with that car and how big the smile was on that new owners face. I had recently sold my Chevelle SS936 to pay tuition, but this car was in a different league and fueled an emotional desire that only the Porsche could fulfill.

Hey guys thanks very much for your comments. And mucho thanks to whoever suggested some of the other dealerships in the area. Today I went over to Reeves in Tampa and was blown away by how much better they were than the dealership in St. Petersburg (which is also the one which wasn't recommended by the same poster...go figure, eh!). At Reeves the guy who came out to meet me was friendly, helpful and went to get keys for a test drive without even a second word. They had about 6 used M3 cabrios and 3 used M3 coupes (none were SMG) so I took a 2002 6 speed coupe out for a test drive. (The fact that they have so many used cars that are only ~2 years old is something I hadn't pondered too closedly). But I have to say the car really drove incredibly well, the seats were truly great and the engine sounds were also very nice. Compared to what I was driving before this car has all kinds of power. Totally different league. After the drive I was quite impressed and could definitely live with the car. However.....then I started looking underneath the chassis....*every single M3* on the lot had what looked like a sheen of oily grime underneath the car?!? This did not look like normal road crud but was 'wetter' looking like a fine mist of oil had been spraying in that area over a period of time. Pardon my language but WTF?!?. Is this supposed to be normal? This was a MAJOR turnoff and has almost completely made me mark this car off the list. Just for kicks, when I came home I looked under all of our cars (including a 2000 Mustang, an 87 S-10 pickup and my wrecked 96 Eclipse)...*none* of these much older, much cheaper cars have the amount of oil residue on the underside of the car as these practically new BMW's. Unbelievable. Did I really see what I thought I saw? Changing the subject to Porsche...unfortunately they did not have any 99-00 911 C2 coupes on the lot and the only used 911 they had was an 03 cabrio (which I'm not looking for at all). Since I still wanted to drive one, the salesman got the keys for it and we took it out for a spin as well. I have to say...you guys were right regarding the way the cars feel. I would *never* have guessed they would drive so differently. But for some reason the Porsche made me a little more nervous while driving it. After thinking about it most of the day I still can't quite explain why that was the case. In the limited amount of time I spent with the two cars, the power in both is more than adequate for me. I wasn't thrashing them and took only a limited test drive so no major power differences came up. You guys were right on the money with most of the comments as well...the handling of the M3 was lighter but the Porsche felt more solidly planted. The 911 had a much stiffer clutch but more 'positive' shifting action. The M3 had better seats and better interior build quality (switches, buttons and surfaces) but the car itself didn't feel as sturdy. I did notice that the M3 had an incredibly tight turning radius though (forgot to test this in the 911). But as I said above the engine issues and the oily undersides of the M3's on the lot have pretty much sealed the deal. (Although I still can't believe I saw what I think I saw...damn I wish I would've reached under there and touched it.) I was talking to the Mrs. about the two options (pros and cons of each, the decision process, should I buy one or not, etc. etc.) and she was surprisingly straightforward...get the Porsche. In her mind there was really no comparison between the two choices...so what if it doesn't have a back seat! lol So it looks like I'm in the market for a 99-2000 C2 coupe! The dealership is looking for one for me but there are a ton of them for sale on autotrader.com within 200 miles of me for decent prices. What value ($) would you place on getting a dealer certified 99-00 versus going with an individual at a lower purchase price? Besides oil leaks from the RMS issue, is there anything else to really be on the lookout for? Thanks for your advice and expertise, both were greatly appreciated! -Keith

"But for some reason the Porsche made me a little more nervous while driving it." Don't be afraid, it's most civilized P-car yet, and with current market for used cars only you will know how little you paid for it

Played around with a new M3 convertible today a little. He got taken by my lowly little 90 964 cabriolet that is heavy is all get and about 13 years older than his ride (18s + over 100 pounds in stereo gear and nothing lightweight in my 964 cabriolet). Bummer buying a brand new M3 and not being able to keep up with an old 964 . . . even if it has a Ruf badge. https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...hreadid=109390

K996: If the BMWs you looked at were built in Germany they'd have Cosmoline sprayed on their underside before shipment to inhibit corrosion from the high salt content in the air on ship. Porsche's get the same treatment. Removing it is up to the customer but many don't.

My neighbour had a new M3, then I did a cruel thing, I let him drive my C4S, he just traded his M3 in on a C4S...we now have a matched set in our garage (shared), he felt the M3 was rougher and not as refined as the Porsche, and, once you get in the corners.........like many have said, try driving one.

I love the smell of Cosmoline in the morning.... smells like.... Victory....