Poll: Reliability of your 996/986

This is long but if you own a pre 02 996 or 986 I urge you to read it....... Many of us pre 02 996 (C2/C4) and 986 owners are starting to experience serious problems with our Porsche cars typically before they even reach 30,000 miles on the clock.....and despite having them fully serviced by Porsche main dealers. From what I understand there are more than 170 TSBs out for the Carrera model alone. Common reported faults range from serious problems such as blown engines, RMS (Rear [crancshaft] Main Seal), gearbox problems, clutches burning out at below 10k miles to nagging issues such as Cabriolet top noise, MAF sensors, and much more. I have communicated with 996 owners who have experienced cracked gearbox bell housings, engines blowing up, breaks failing and so on. One 99 986 owner I spoke to had no less than two replacement engines. That makes 3 including its factory shipped engine! In most cases our cars are never tracked but even if they were, this marque is supposed to be a unique "sports car" and we buy these cars to drive them hard and "tracking" them is to be expected. It is after all the "ultimate" sports car save maybe for a Ferrari. It is not a Lexus, Mercedes or a BMW. No sir! This is *not* a luxury car and it was not designed to be a luxury car. It's a seriously expensive performance enhanced sports car and only a lucky few like you and me get the pleasure of owning one. The fact is, these cars are not cheap. They are seriously expensive both to purchase and run. Having said that, I think you will all agree that despite this car being touted as a "daily driver", we don't realy expect its running costs to be "typical" of any normal daily driver. We know before we buy the car (even if we don't want to admit it to ourselves) that this car will be expensive to run. However, this marque is supposed to be bread from the greatest and most technologically advanced German engineering to date and while we except that a car of this calibre will be expensive to run, we also expect it to be reliable and have a build quality far exceeding that of other less expensive marques. To quote from the 996 drivers manual, Dr Ing. h.c. F. Porsche says: "Dear Customer. We thank you for the trust you have shown in buying this car and congratulate you on your new 911. As far as we know, no other vehicle can look back on a tradition like the 911. This 911 retains the fundamental values of its predecessors. And yet it represents a combination of tradition and innovation which is truly unique." To further quote from the Service Dealer Directory: "you decided in favour of a Porsche sports car and we thank you for your confidence . Your vehicle incorporates all our experience as specialized sports car manufacturer and was built with the utmost care. Porsche After-Sales Service will ensure that quality and reliability which distinguishes your Porsche will be long maintained. " This is how I interpret these words: "I can expect this innovative and uniquely specialized sports car to be reliable because I am confident that the extortionate ammount of hard earned cash that I payed to own it, will ensure that I experience this specialized sports car manufactured quality and reliability. Furthermore, the Porsche After-Sales Service that my car is undergoes according to its Scheduled service intervals, will ensure that this quality and reliability will be maintained." Having said all this, I question all these issues: relability, build quality, After sales service that ensures maintainability, and so on. What is Porsche going to do about it?

Scouser: This is dead on and very articulate. I will vote above but also want to go on record saying that I have been underwhelmed by the quality of my $90K 996 cab. My real questions is : "why don't we organize oursleves and mobilize to get Porsche to do something tangible for us rather than just rant to one another on line ?" Any suggestions from anybody on how to get this done welcome. Let's rise up!!!!

Stratpa, As consumers, our best weapon is our pocket. We don't like it, we don't buy it.

strapta, Thanks for your support. Actually I did have another paragrpah but I struck it off in the hope that someone else would say it. And you said it! Basically I wanted to see how everyone felt about the problems before screaming out. Here's my last paragraph that I deleted before posting: It is time we all stood up and spoke out loud to the manufacturer. We are unhappy, dissilusioned, out-of-pocket and without any confidence in this car. If there is enough support from fellow rennlisters, I am offereing to follow these issues up with the Porsche magazine press and also to drive my car to Stuttgart and demand some answers in protest from Porsche direct. I plan to park the car out in front of the main headquater gates to the factory with a placard "in German and English" saying that we rennlisters demand immediate action to put right these issues. I plan to leave the car there until I am told by an authority to move it. But I am not doing this alone. I need full support from everyone. So. Who else is willing to sign up to this?

Palting. Your right of course but only if you haven't already forked out for the car. Certainly I would not ever consider buying another one of these cars.

It will be interesting to see how the poll comes out. I've always suspected that the people having big problems were the vocal minority but I could be wrong. My 99 996 has had a hard life. I've owned it since new and in that time I've used it as a daily driver, used it as a track car, used it as a club racer and finally as safety equipment test bed when I was knocked into the wall at well over 100 mph. I'm not sure I could have asked for any more out of a car. It was great as a daily driver. I had an RMS problem and a couple other small issues but they were fixed promptly with no hassle. We have two great dealers and a bunch of good independents in MN. As a combo street/track car it worked flawlessly. There aren't many cars you can just slap a set of Hoosiers on and beat the living day lights out of the way you can a 996. As a club racer it was a little off the pace but it's in a class with the 993 RS and 993 TT. It was also my first year of racing so it might not have been all the cars fault. At Road America a car I was passing put two wheels off, over corrected and came back across the track, hitting me on the driver's side and riding me into the wall at a high rate of speed. Every body panel was destroyed and every suspension piece on the right side was broken but the chassis/tub was barely tweeked. 1 inch off center, 1/2 inch off flat. This is not a poorly built car! I'm not saying the 996 is perfect and I'm not saying that Porsche shouldn't continue to improve but I am saying they have a few happy customers out here. BTW, we're well into rebuilding the car and will be back next year with a little less weight and a little more HP to have another go at it. Jim

I think the poll is poorly designed, since it biases responses towards a negative answer - the "midpoint" is "Unreliable: Not Very Happy"

Berny, I have been quite happy, maybe lucky based on some posts. I 've only had a few minor issues like CELs in the first year, it has been nearly trouble free in 4 years of ownership. Not a drip or a puff of smoke, and I track it every chance I get. What other car can you drive hard at the track and put in a CD and drive home and to work everyday. I'm sorry for your troubles and I hope everything gets resolved.

15 months and 21,000 road miles including autox and a track visit on Laguna Seca A problem free great ride!

I've driven mine from Stuttgart, to Austria, Italy, Monaco, France, and back to Stuttgart. Then for over 14 months here in California, from stop and go traffic to 145mph on freeways to 2 track days at Buttonwillow with no problem.

It is interesting that well over 80% of respondants have had no major problems. Here's hoping my 2003 C2 with 2,500 miles stays in that group. Knock on wood, so far so good.....

Here are a few humble perspectives: a- I am a die hard Porsche driver. I think the cars are great and will probably keep driving them forever b- Part of the reputation of the car is build on its engineering and robustness and we pay a hefty premium for that c- I am not saying "let's not buy Porsches". What I am saying is let's hold Prosche to its promise and take care of ALL Porsche drivers and cars out there (not just the lucky unvocal majority). d- My car has been in the shop one week per month each of the last 6 despite the fact that I treat it better than a family member. I am about to run out of warranty and I am terrified of what this is going to cost me going forward. We may be an unlucky minority, but we have as much right as all the others to get as much pleasure out of our 996 as they do. e- It would be nice to get support from the majority to help sensitize Porsche and to do something for us (like perhaps extend our warranty on chronic issues a couple of years or something) f- It is all fun and games until it happens to you....

4 years and 50k miles. Zero problems. Maybe my experience is the outlier...., but my expectations were set by my 928 experience. Now THAT car can be a high maintenance girl.............. ...........And the car's performance still blows me away.............. I do have sympathy (if not empathy) for you who have had problems though. Nothing more vexing than paying a bunch for something and not being happy with your purchase.....

It is interesting indeed the stats so far. I think it was/is a fair poll. The negative comments made no difference so far to the 80+% who are more than happy with their cars. I have this poll up for 30 days so lets see how it goes. I will keep bumping it to ensure it stays current. Incidentally, I have had my 996 since new. 3 years on and 27,000 miles it never once gave me a problem. The most expensive service was �400 and that was its forst major. Up to then I was more than happy with my car. I would have voted for "Very Happy" if the poll was them. But one month out of warranty and it all started to go wrong: RMS, header tank and now gearbox. I am convinced that if my problems had happened in the US this would have all been taken care off with Porsche good-will. But here in the UK...well I rest my case. Keep the comments comin....and thanx for voting and your support.

'02 986 S, 14,000 miles and absolutely perfect so far. Not even one warranty claim! Squeaks and rattles when the top is up are overlooked, but that's the extent of it.Hope your problems diminish and you become happy with the car. Todd Emmaus, PA PPBB Member

You guys have me a little nervous. Just bought a 996 C2 cab with 1,700 miles so I won't be voting. Hope I'm part of the group with few probs. Granted the miles are low on my car but there have been no issues to this point. Fingers crossed. PS. Hey Gretch, nice to see you're here too!

Just wanted to let you all know that I called PUK customer relations again. I pleaded and begged them to reconsider. Told them that all rennlist are wathing for the outcome. Told them that I am in the market for a new car. Told them that AMV8 is a choice. Told them how dissapointed I am. The guy I spoke too was most accomodating and he is going to look into it further for me. Said he would call back tommorow or Monday. Will keep you posted on the outcome.

So far the vote shows that people are still satisfied with their porsche quality. I think the reason some people complain about their porsche is they are the newer owners who were lured into buying the porsche's such as the 996 because Porsche attempted to come into the mainstream market by making their cars look more of a Lexus or Mercedes than in the past. Although I myself am a first time Porsche buyer, I was around former porsche owners who knew it wasn't a lexus or mercedes in terms of reliability. In the ferrari group for example, they say that everytime you start your car its a new experience because you never know what will happen next, i.e. car won start, bad starter, electrical, etc. with this in mind it comes down to why did we really buy this car. I think majority of porsche guys like to drive fast cars, yet have the luxury, elegance closest to an exotic without paying the full price for one and being able to drive it everyday. I've had a Toyota, BMW, Benz and lexus; all cars that they claim are reliable out of the factory. What people forget is if you are into toying with these cars, like adding mods, etc. they don't last. I moved into Porsches because I've met many people such as those on the board now, who do things like forced induction, change the motor, etc. drive the car on the track and the car runs for years without any sacrifice of quality. Try doing the things you do to your porsche on a lexus, and see if you can compare them. Add a turbo and 100hp's, lets see if it holds out the squeeks and thumps from rough suspension. I always like to modify my cars and after 10k-20k miles, the mods are so nervewrecking I sold the car after a year. 3 years have gone by with my porsche having 19 inch wheels, coil over suspension, driving through streets of SF, racing the Auto-X, searspoint, etc. and although the damn check engine light comes on every now and then, I am still very satisfied with it. I'm so convinced it will hold up, forced induction is next. On a side note, my cousin who went from the BMW group to Ferrari recently told me. He visited a BMW CCA forum he used to post on a few years back and from an ousiders point of view noticed how people talk about their cars on the message board. Visit any message board, and the owners, fans of a particular car will always find a way to prove their possession/desire is superior to another even if it goes as far as to be in their own little world. Then there are the upset ones who somehow bought the wrong car and find problems about them ranting them all day. The lesson learned here is that nothing is perfect and if someone wants to make it look bad, they will, and vice versa.

Hey Scouser: I am in the US so can't come to the "sit in" but I am wondering whether you think that something more "business like" might be effective. I am thinking maybe we could try to garner as many signatures as we can on a "global petition letter" that would calmly but fimrly request that Porsche extend a helping hand to those customers that have experienced issues but nonetheless remain dedicated partners to a good Porsche relationship. What say you?

stratpa......count me in. I am all ears, fingers and keyboard. The issue I have who to contact. I have asked quite a few times who to address. My best friend is German and he is willing to write any letters in German for me but I would not know who to address to get the best results. One thing I don't want is to be referred to my local P dealer customer relations officer. I would want to ensure we get to a responsible exec in Germany who would look into our concerns.

I think that your instinct of Prosce North America being a little more customer focused might be right. I would suggest we start with the President of PNA. How about we split the load: - I can do research here as to whom to contact and write a draft letter for us to review - Can you figure out what the most practical way to get an online petition is? maybe rennlist or another site can facilitate. Deal?

Deal. I'll get started.

Scouser: 1) Convertible top replaced because wasn't seating correctly. Dealer fixed quickly 2) Clutch replaced at 30k miles 3) Water pump being replaced right now at 44k miles and guys are checking for other things in need of repair under extended warranty. I'm quite pleased w/ the build quality of my '99 C4 Cab. The 996 is a different animal than previous iterations, and the trade off is refinement and comfort VS tank-like build quality. Still much better daily driver than other exotics/sports cars. Regards, Mitch

Mitch. Sounds like you have a well behaved porker and better still a good service dealer. I am interested in your car. Not many of us have moded with techart airkits. Most 996 owners fit stock kits but I like to be different. Any chance of some pictures. Also what's the ECU upgrade give you?

my 996: more stereo and speaker replacements than i can count driving light bulbs just keep blowing and blowing and blowing (i don't even bother to replace them any more!) cigarette lighter/power outlet quit working major coolant leak security system/lock/unlock/memory all don't work (it even locked me in the car once!) gas guage broke center console door broke and i know there are a few more things, but i lost track since there's been so many problems! but even with all this i still love my 996. what can i say, they're awesome cars!

I love my '99 C4 but its been in the shop now for 5 weeks with a blown engine and transmission........

Looking at current poll results, the question for me is whether "fairly reliable" is the standard that the paragon of automotive sports engineering should be hitting. Isn't that like giving "edible food" rating to the top gourmet restaurant in any given country ?

Its always sad to hear about people's misfortune in keeping their vehicles maintained. I only wish that there were a separate forum where all the disgruntled could congregate and share their stories of woe. Its depressing to see all these negative posts on the main board when it is pretty clear that this is just a small but vocal minority. If Porsches are known for anything, it is being a high cost and high maintenance vehicle. No one can say they didn't get into the marquee with their eyes wide open on this issue. The only thing surprising is that the cars are really a lot more reliable and less expensive to maintain than is generally recognized by the public. There is a long history, at least in the US, of image conscious people buying cars they can't afford to maintain, and then blaming the car rather than their decision to buy it. I come from a whole generation of young guys with Jag XKEs, BMW 2002s, and Triumph TR-6s sitting in their garages that they couldn't keep running. So this is nothing new. But I feel bad for Porsche, which is a tiny itty bitty little company fighting for its life in a Great Whites, to be drug down by having their enthusiast boards highjacked by the buyers remorse crowed. So how about it Viken? put the GT3 guys back with us and make that spot the sad sack forum where all the disgruntled can gather and cry in their beers. It would be most therapeutic for everyone. P.S. I won't see this board again until Monday, so if there's anyone else out there who agrees its up to you to carry the ball...

Jeff 25, I am a member of rennlist and as such it gives me as much right as you to voice my opinions. In fact it gives me more right than you since I am a paying member and it p*sses me off that your using my bandwidth. If you want a hand in the direction of the Forum then pay your dues.

JimB, when I grow up, I want to be like you. My hero

Ruey220, "I think the reason some people complain about their porsche is they are the newer owners who were lured into buying the porsche's such as the 996 because Porsche attempted to come into the mainstream market by making their cars look more of a Lexus or Mercedes than in the past. " A lot of the guys I know that have had issue with their 996s are long time owners. Personally, I have owned 10+ Porsches since 1985 and the 996's have had more issues than any 911 I have owned. I will not own my 996 out of warranty, I won't take the risk (I'll own the Turbo out, it can be rebuilt). The 996 is a much better car from a drivers perspective, but my 3 have had a lot more minor issues (and some major) than my older P cars... Jeff25, "There is a long history, at least in the US, of image conscious people buying cars they can't afford to maintain, and then blaming the car rather than their decision to buy it. I come from a whole generation of young guys with Jag XKEs, BMW 2002s, and Triumph TR-6s sitting in their garages that they couldn't keep running. So this is nothing new." If your implication is that the people who are having problems are these "image conscious" people who "cannot afford to maintain" their cars, that's not very well thought out. Most of the people who are having issues are having them under warranty; I think they can "afford" that. My position is unchanged, they are great cars but the quality is not consistant with the price imo. Roy ps. I could take my TR6 apart and put it back together with my eyes closed

An update on my gearbox: After pleading with PUK they have come up with a compromise and I must say I am a lot happier and somewhat impressed. A new gearbox in the UK is approx �7000 plus 17.5% VAT (Value Added Tax) + fitting cost + VAT. PUK have offered to fit me a new gearbox at a cost to me of �3,300 all including VAT and fitting. I can't argue at that. I have had 30k miles on the old gearbox and I guess it's a bargain as a new one would have stung me 10 large. As well as this they have also offered me a years extended warranty thrown in so that any more problesm will be covered. So first of all I would like to say sorry to thr group for moaning and groanin. And second I would like to say Sorry to PUK for givin them proverbial. Still �3,300 = approx $5,200.....not exactly a nice xmas gift but it'l be done right and give me pice of mind.....bank manager won't be happy though!

Recently took a driving trip in my 2001 C2 (150 miles round trip with numerous stops to view the scenery) to the mountains in Western North Carolina. When I got home, I parked the car in the garage. The next time I pulled it out of the garage, there it was, a spot of oil about 2 inches wide by 4 inches long underneath the rear of the car at dead center. Since then, no apparent drops of oil on the floor but I can smell a hint of burning oil odor after I get out of the car. I have not taken the car to the dealership for a check yet but I am afraid that I have the dreaded RMS leak. Fortunately, the car is still under warranty so it should be repaired with no problem.

I've had my 2000 996 since new and at close to 60,000 miles, it feels better than new. I track it about 6 times a year too.

Randy, get the car in ASAP. * If the RMS fails under pressure your engine'll blow up. * The oil can build up in the gearbox bellhousing and wreck your clutch and/or flywheel.

I agree totally - these cars are touted as being reliable and an 'everyday sports car' yet the problems I have read are incredible for such low milage. I just hope that my 996 doesnt present me with too much grief especially since if the bills start to really esculate then I will have to consider another marquee... I only bought my 99 model 3 months ago. So far so good....finger crossed...

Vorland, You are going to buy another tent???

C'mon, we need three more votes to make an exact 100!!!

ping.

Cracked cylinder wall at 18K miles. All service done at Porsche.

I have had my mid year 1999 996 Cab for six months so far. I have put 4,000 miles on it with no real problems so far. Though my experience has been too short to get a good picture.

My 01 did have the RMS problem, but the Dealer dealt with that so fast and painlessly it seems hardly worth mentioning. BTW it showed up after I had done a few Autocross events. It now has 20K on it without any other problems. {those 20K include a least 30 days on the track} My 99 {I got it with 60K} now has 70K and plenty of track time by my Wife and I {this is back to back hammering the hell out it!!} RMS never was an issue, and still isn't. Mufflers did let go, but I replaced and boy was that an easy job since the car is built so well. BTW: my tow vehicle is a Ford. I HATE IT!!! Porsche and Ford are such polar opposites {from dealer experience to build quality} I think it is an insult for even the worst Porsche to be compared to any Ford. Start doing any work at all on the two vehicles and you'll see where at least some of the $80K-plus goes.

I just bought an '04. Do these newer cars have a lot of the bugs you guys are talking about worked out? I've had an Fcar for 10 years but defected to the P-camp because of the new car warranty and "reliability?" (as "sold" by the P-salesguy) for the same price as a used F-car with the possibility of $15k engine problems. Even though the Porsche is under warranty, I was really hoping I wouldn't need it!!! Sean Dynes

Scouser: Finally uploaded pic of my car(s). Apparently can't load the pic directly as my avatar until 25th post, so I've pasted the web address until then. Regards, Mitch

Chuck, thanks for noticing. Amazing the difference between the two sites eh?