2002 C4S...wide body?

Hello everyone; I am looking at a 2002 C4S wide body and I was hoping that someone with a bit more knowledge could help me out. Was the wide body a selectable option, or were all C4S's wide body? Should I find RUF modifications valuable? This may sound like a stupid question, but I don't consider the typical mods (springs, intakes, etc.) "value adders". However, I know almost nothing about RUF and am unsure of how to place their worth. The specific car I am looking at is this: http://wwwa.autotrader.ca/a/Porsche/...howcpo=ShowCPO . I have already done a good once over of the car as well as a lengthy test drive, and am having it PPI'd before I buy. However, an inspection isn't free so I want to have a clear picture of what the car is before I move forward. The owner couldn't give me any specific information re: the RMS or IMS but has the complete service history so I am going to check that out as well. This would be my first Porsche and I am not as educated on the car/options as I'd like to be. Searching the forums to answer the wide body question showed me lots of threads about wheels... lol. Thank you in advance. I am hoping to submit an offer before Thursday.

Yes, with the 996 all C4s's have the wide body from the turbo. Turbo body, turbo all wheel drive, turbo brakes. Not the turbo engine Can't speak the value of the additions, but after exhaust has a value assuming you like the sound and feel. And without knowing how the price of Canadian cars compare, that seems like a high price for that car. that converts to ~39k USA. Crazy high. . 27-30 is what you should expect to pay without the service history. And get the PPI!~!~

That car is probably worth around 22k trade in value. The Ruf mods are great quality stuff nothing wrong with it. Personally, I picked up my Turbo for less then that C4S with 82k on it. I think for that price I would be looking for a Turbo which they are nearly the same body wise but has a much better and reliable engine.

Looks great ruf is premium stuff - if you like and it and car checks out and you can afford it go for it

For the normally aspirated 993 and 996's, the "S" designation meant widebody. So you could have 2WD widebody Carreras (Carrera S) and 4WD widebodies (Carrera 4S). The "4" designation simply meant four-wheel drive. This changed with the 997's, as you need to have the 4WD version (Carrera 4 and Carrera 4S) to get the widebody in a normally aspirated car. The "S" in a 997 just means the higher-power version and has no bearing on the size of the sheetmetal in the rear. Clear as mud? I pulled this info straight from the Porsche 911 Carrera 4 and Carrera 4S Product Information Manual (dated July 2005). Sean

Except that there's no such thing as a RWD Carrera S in the 996 line. The S is only available as a AWD Carrera 4S. It available as a MK II car only, model years 2002 - 2005.

If the owner couldn't be specific about the IMSB, it probably hasn't been done. I think the price is a bit high. But I don't value the Ruf upgrades that much. Someone else might. All of the C4S are built on the same chasis as the Turbos. They look just like the turbos except they don't have the inlets on the sides for air intake for the intercoolers. I think the 996 C4S is one of the most beautiful 911s ever built. I am biased since I bought one this spring. When you look at the maintenance records see when the last major service was done. Generally the spark plugs and the big service is done every 30K. This one has 60,000 Kilometers which is around 36,000 miles. It should have had a big service at 30,000 miles. If it didn't, that is a red flag because it will need to be done soon and it makes you wonder why the owner waited so long. Beyond that, this car has clearly been a garage queen. That isn't a bad thing except the garage queens are the ones known for suffering the IMSB failure. You can do the clutch and the upgraded bearing for around $2,400. At a minimum I would knock the price of doing that off the price of the car. The clutch is probably good but it is so easy to change once you get in to upgrade the IMSB you might as well. The other issue is that I am told the bigger wheels hurt the handling and ride of the car. I don't know. I have only driven ones with the standard wheels. But if you look, there are several threads on here that say so. It may not bother you. But if you can drive a similar model with the smaller wheels before you buy this and see if the wheel size bothers you. If it does, it is not a deal killer. You can always stick those wheels on Ebay and then take the money and put regular wheels on the car. There is always someone who wants the big ones. Beyond that, I can't say enough about the 996 C4S. My car is the most incredible piece of kit I have ever owned and there isn't a day I drive it that I am not incredibly happy I own it. And for what it is worth, if there is any N/A 996 that will appreciate it will be the C4S. Even the haters have to admit it is a pretty kick *** car. To give you some perspective, I paid $33,900 for mine. It had just had its major service and had an upgraded IMSB bearing. But it didn't have any of the RUF upgrades like this one and it has 55,200 miles, which is significantly more than this one. I probably paid a little bit more than I needed to but I got a car with an upgraded IMSB and a complete maintenance history. So far so good. All it has needed was an AC recharge. I don't think this car is too far out of line in price. It is a bit high, but a lot of people love the RUF upgrades and will pay for them I think. I would low ball him and offer $38K if the IMSB has been upgraded. If it hasn't, I would offer $36K. Regardless, I wouldn't pay over $40K for it if it has its original IMSB. I think the issue is a bit overplayed. But even I think it probably isn't overplayed with low miliage cars. You don't want to be stuck with a $10,000 rebuild. Just get it upgraded so you don't have to worry. And then drive the living hell out of it and have fun because the cars seem to be happier and do better that way.

NB = 69.7 inches wide WB = 72 inches wide Not sure sure if OP already knew

Thanks for the great information everyone. I agree that the price is high. This car is approximately $8,000 more expensive than the closest C4S in a 500km radius so I intend to negotiate. Also glad for the clarification on the wide body. I found that a little confusing at first. Glad to know that any C4S I look at will be wide body. Really love the look (am looking at a 997 C4S tomorrow but it's $77,000 vs $42,000). I am getting him to send me the option sheet so I can exactly what's in the car. I am hesitate to look at a turbo as my first Porsche as I come from muscle car territory ('05, '13 Mustang GT) and import territory ('91 MR2 turbo I had hopped up to 375ish hp). Hilariously, I have a maximum budget of around $75k CAD and only drove the 996 C4S yesterday to see how it compares to a 997. I haven't driven a 997 yet (am looking at an '08 C4S tomorrow) but it will have to be vastly improved for me to plop down an extra $15-$25k compared to a 996. I was thinking of a 997 turbo as a second buy once I got to know the Porsche brand a little more, the cars, etc. Thanks again for the great information. I think I'm going to like it here

I would look at 997.2's for that budget. 09 and newer has a new more reliable engine

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True, though just because I have the budget doesn't mean I need to spend it. My wife and I just got married on Monday so my logic is spend $35 -$45k and pocket the money I would have spent and throw it into savings, etc. I have a huge hard-on for the 991 C4S's so the plan is to move into one of those in 2 or 3 years anyway.

It depends on how much you want to spend versus how much you have to spend. All things being equal, a 996.2 would be awfully nice. You can get 09 C4S for under 60K and have nor IMSB issues or deal with any "but you have the unloved Porsche" or "what about those headlights" nonsense. To me the 911 gets a bit more sterile and further away from what it originally was with each new generation. So, I am not too heartbroken about not buying a 997.2. One thing I would not do is buy a 997.1 N/A. They still have the IMSB issue and unlike the 996s, it requires breaking open the engine block to upgrade the IMSB. On a 996 you can upgrade and replace the IMSB every time you replace the clutch and just treat it like an ordinary maintenance item. I would either go for a 997.2 or save your shekels and take the 996.

Just to be clear, the 997.1 (first generation 997's) received an enlarged IMS bearing in the late 2005 timeframe. The 2005 997's still had the same style IMS bearing as the 996's until this change occurred. If you are considering looking into the 997 world, I would recommend looking for a 2006 or newer. True, this enlarged IMS bearing can't be as easily changed like the ones in the 996's, but they aren't prone to the same issues as the earlier designs. In fact there is an entire thread devoted to tracking IMS bearing failures in the 997, and there doesn't appear to be very many cases at all. When the 997.2 was introduced in 2009, they eliminated the IMS bearing altogether. Remember when it comes to IMS bearing issues in either the 996 or 997, all you hear on these forums are the bad news stories. After all, that's what these forums are for. You never here stories like, "Hey, I am having no issues with my car . . . everything is fine." Unfortunately the few bad apples out there have painted an undeserved picture with respect to these cars (IMHO). If your ultimate goal is to get into a 991, then perhaps you should go with the 996 as they have had the most time to depreciate. Prices for the 991 will certainly decline in 2-3 years, as will the 997 (but not as much). From a financial standpoint, you may be able to keep more of your money in your pocket by driving the oldest car first and waiting for the newest cars to come down in price. Sean

I assume you're in Calgary The going rate for a 996 C4s manual transmission with 50-80k km on it is $36-38k For 100k km plus it's in the $28-32k range and goes down from there That's for private sales Dealers are more I think there's wiggle room on the one in the trader with all the Ruf goodies that you list Similar car with similar mods sold recently for $38k Only problem tight now is that there are not many for sale, the other ones are automatics

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Good point. For some reason the writers of the Porsche 911 Carrera 4 and Carrera 4S Product Information Manual (dated July 2005) didn't seem interested in making that distinction. I guess they too get confused over the countless versions of the 911 that are out there. Sean

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My understanding is that 8-9% of 996's have had issues with the IMS, which still sizable, is far from being a sizable minority let alone majority. I'm looking at another 996 C4S (2002) tomorrow that is $33,500, obviously with no RUF goodies, and full service history. I'm also looking at an '08 C4S tomorrow evening, and I think after that I will be able to make my decision. Either way, the 997 is going to have to seriously "wow" me for me to justify the extra spend. My kitchen could use some new cabinets just as much as my garage could use a new Porsche :P

Their writers aren't the only ones that are confused. The Porsche marketing team seems to be more confused. I see it in my garage every day. My 996 C4S is AWD, and it as red brake calipers like the turbo. It has the same engine as the C2 and C4 cars. In the 996 series cars, the AWD Carrera 4 is designated as AWD by the "4", and it has silver brake calipers. My Cayenne S is AWD (like every Cayenne), but it has no "4" designation. It's an S, but it has silver calipers (only the turbo and GTS models have red). It has a more powerful engine than the standard Cayenne. It all makes perfect sense, right?

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I have heard similar IMSB "statistics," but I have asked myself where is this data coming from? Is Porsche keeping track? Perhaps, but they would only know about IMS work done by dealerships and not independents. Is 8-9% really the right number? I'm somewhat skeptical. When I was doing all my research before buying my water-cooled 911, I asked numerous independents for advice and practically all of them said the IMSB issue was "overblown." Their words, not mine. No doubt the IMSB issue is something to consider, but is it something that keeps me up at night? Certainly not. BTW, I found the 997 interior to be much more refined than the 996. But the 996 represents great value for the money right now, so it will ultimately come down to what's important to you. Sean

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The IMS isn't an issue for me. If I go the 996 route I intend to have the engine RMS replaced and an LN IMSB installed as a preventative measure. The interiors are certainly quite different, aren't they? Something to think about. Still, to get into a 320hp AWD C4S for under $35k? My wife is already counting the ways to spend the extra money... hahaha.

A790, like the way you roll -- married on Monday, buy 911 later that week... NetJets card next?! But seriously, considering 996/997s for now (until you're ready for 991): -- 996 C4S: agree few nicer looking cars on the road. Price for vehicle in question does seem high but if PPI checks out (inspect the filter!) maybe OK. -- 997.1S: great option; unlike the 996, "S" designation means more HP and better suspension, amongst other things. Check the VIN against the IMS class-action site and you'll know whether the IMS can be upgraded (some cannot) -- 997.2S: a safer choice relative to IMS but probably $20-30k more. My vote, if you like the 996 C4S body find one, drive it for 2-3 years, then upgrade to the 991 C4S you want. Regardless of eventual model, there are very few who regret buying a p-car of any type so enjoy!

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Maybe consider the DOF with the bearing replacement. I put a LN bearing and if the DOF had been out I would have added that also. Especially if you go for 2006 or later large IMSB http://directoilfeed.com/

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Ha, it's how we do! The wife is completely on board with the Porsche- she tells me that I work too hard and that I need something for myself. Plus, she got implants last September and so I think she feels guilty :P It's amazing the price disparity between a 997.1 S and a 997.2 S. It really is to the tune of $10-$15k. Looking at another 996 C4S and a 997.1 C4S today. Today will be the deciding factor. I already ruled out a '14 Cayman S (had an appointment to look at one on Saturday at Calgary Porsche) as we both have decided it's either 911, or wait a little while longer and get a 911 anyway. Also, since I'm new I'm unfamiliar with some of the terms I've seen tossed around rennlist. P-cars? Is that another term for Porsche, or does it refer to a specific model/trim? It's definitely something worth doing, though I wonder if maybe it's a bit overkill? Is there data showing the LN bearing failing that would reinforce the DOF's necessity? Not trying to be cheap, but I am definitely trying to educate myself.

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The Cayman S is a better car, faster, lighter and reliable engine. In dark colors it can hide the Panamera looking hatch back rear end. Can't see the 996 C4S losing as much in depreciation for the next couple years compared with the 997.1 which will loose a lot. If you got a 996TT in the 40's it won't go down. It will stay the same mine has actually gone up. You may not need the extra hp but it is the better buy, deprecation, easier to sell. Leave it stock and it's very similar to a 991S with power kit in hp, torque is different though as boost vs na is quite different.

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I don't doubt the qualities of the Cayman, but unfortunately we've decided that AWD is a requirement. Plus, the $80kish pricetag they have here is '09/'10 911 money.

I guess I'll be the first to ask...Once you purchase it make sure to post pictures of both car and implants!

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Dude, if you just got married then BUY IT IMMEDIATELY WHILE YOU STILL CAN.

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We looked at a black '02 C4S today w/ 93,000 km. The body is in 8.5/10 condition, interior 7/10. Engine runs strong, has almost complete service history. However, the owner doesn't know anything about the RMS or IMSB. Oh, it also has Porsche roof racks He wants $32,500, and I think I'm going to offer $29,000. Looking forward to it.

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If you haven't already you might want to research the AWD requirement a little. I don't have any personal experience since I have a RWD Targa, but from reading online the AWD wasn't really designed to improve winter use dramatically. It is more to get on the throttle a little earlier and harder coming out of a corner on the track. If you do end up with a 996 I would recommend keeping a bit of budget back for upgrades. Adding a new nav/stereo helps the interior, and upgrading the shifter and replacing the engine mounts helps improve the feel of the car.

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I didn't think you could add nav given that the climate control is the second din above the stereo. Are there aftermarket options, or is their a factory unit I could use? One thing that is important to me is adding a bit more power. I was thinking an intake, IPD plenum, and exhaust + tune. Figured that'd take me to around 350 hp or so... yes? I'm used to the world of Mustangs (last was a '13 GT) where and intake + exhaust + tune gained 45 horsepower... lol.

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The climate control was designed to be easily movable to the bottom slot so no problems there. It is probably possible to use a factory nav, but given the age of the car the aftermarket technology is almost certainly much better. Count on about ~$1K to convert to a double-din nav as a DIY. It is pretty straightforward thanks to 3rd party kits and help from this forum. Adding more power is tough though. My conclusion after lots of reading here was that Porsche has already tuned the engine really well and hasn't left much on the table. Aftermarket 200 cell cats, better intake, and a tune might help, but I'd be surprised if you could get more than 20hp. My personal opinion is that the 911 delivers power better than the front engined Mustangs/Vettes so it pulls more than its numbers suggest...but if you want more power you'd probably be much better off looking at the turbo.

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No on the power, and talking like that with the budget you have, you should really be looking at Turbo models. IMO I'd rather take a high mileage Turbo any day over a NA low mileage model.

kgoertz, Porsche is for whatever reason notoriously conservative with both its horsepower and performance numbers. For example, the 02 C4S is listed by Porsche as having a zero to sixty time of 5.1 seconds. If you google and read the car magazine reviews of it when it was initially released, all of them timed the car doing it in around 4.8 seconds with a manual transmission. I am pretty sure Porsche has underrated the actual performance of about every 911 model ever made. I totally agree with you about the value of tuning. First, not every tuner knows what they are doing. A lot of people have made their cars worse by screwing with the tuning. Second, even if you make it better, the gain as you point out won't be as dramatic as people think. Moreover, nothing comes free. More power means more revs and more gas in the cylinders which in turn means more wear on the internal parts and a shorter engine life. Considering the cost of rebuilds, I don't see the point of tuning up the engine. You tune up old Detroit V8s that you can rebuild in your garage for a $1,000 in parts plus the cost of machining the heads. Unless you just have an endless supply of money, I think it is crazy to screw around with an engine that costs a minimum of $10K to rebuild. That said, if I had a 996 TT, I might think about getting one of those tuned but that is only because they were built to be tuned to 600 horsepower or whatever and just detuned for the street. Tuning an engine back to the performance it was designed for couldn't do too much harm I wouldn't think.

I'm in Calgary Have an 02 C4S Just added a high end exhaust and intake Can give you feedback if you want

Hmmm, more power definitely isn't a huge focus but was something I wanted to do if it was attainable. Turbo's fetch a good $10k over what I'm looking at for C4S's as well. I think I have decided on a 996 C4S. Spending a bit extra on an aftermarket nav unit isn't a big deal for me. peteb3, want to get together at some point so I can take some notes? EDIT: Alright, looking at an 02 turbo tomorrow for $39,900...