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YOUR RESEARCHRolled it
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First, glad you are OK and the damage was minimal (cars can be replaced, people cannot).
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In retrospect, maybe I should have checked around, but I knew the car was toast.
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On my way home from Summit Point. Rolled my car. Rear end is intact, front of the car is a mangled mess. Assuming engine is not damaged, what are my options? I will post a pic when I get home.
Glad that you are OK. Car can always be replaced.
I would advise you not to divulge the details before or after you get your insurance settlement if were doing something stupid when this happened.
So you rolled it the track? At first it reads like you rolled it on the way home. Assuming you don't have track insurance not to sure what you can do but one tip would be is to stop posting about it. Insurance companies can be on here.
Glad to hear the worst injury was to your ego.
If you were on the track when you rolled it, and your insurance specifically excludes track events, then you have a parts car.
Jake at Flat Six Innovations might be interested in the motor and transmission. Sounds like others here may be as well.
eBay for the interior pieces and dash components. Look at how many guys and gals on this forum alone need instrument clusters, radios, A/C controls, and lots of bits and pieces!
It may take a while, but if you are patient you might actually get enough for the parts to offset the monetary loss of the entire vehicle. Find out what retail costs are for replacement parts then ask 50% less plus shipping. Someone who needs your driver's side sun visor might be thrilled to pay half price for a used one.
Don't leave it outside if you can avoid that. Parts (interior and electrical) degrade quickly once the weather is free to breathe on them.
Cancel your insurance coverage on this vehicle. Just tell them you sold it (which you will eventually will). Then you can avoid the premium hike. Apply the eventual refund for any remaining premium toward your towing cost.
Keep good records on your sales. You might be surprised by the potential results.
If it still runs (the roll over switch might need to be reset) and transmission is ok, you can get a few grand if the car is sold complete. If you are willing to part it out, $10-$15K is possible but it will take time and work.
Sorry to hear it, really. Same fate as my '70 Cuda. I see you just got new tires a couple months ago too. Crap.
So, at least satisfy the voyeur in us and post pix and the back-story.
Gotcha. I'm gonna be honest with the company. I'm 99.9% sure (without having looked closely at my policy) that I will not have coverage for incidents that occur at a track event.
I was at Summit Point in W. Va. Turn 4 is a high speed corner/kink that comes up after you come up over a rise. I had been steadily increasing my speed as the session wore on and I misjudged my entry. I was going about 95, the back end hadn't settled yet from coming over the rise and it got loose. I tried to save it and failed. Car ended up skidding into the right side grass, which was soft from the rain from earlier today (track was completely dry). Driver's side tires dug in, it went airborne and flipped, landed on passenger side roof and rolled to stop on its tires. Instructor was a little shaken up but I am told he is fine. I walked away.
So, yeah, I need to figure out how to make the best of a terrible situation. I guess I will have it hauled to my mechanic and have them check out the engine, etc. I really don't know what you do in this spot. Any advice is welcome.
Someone has to say it, so here goes - That'll buff right out.
Tough to look at. You are lucky not to be seriously injured.
What others have said - part it out or find a roller and use your engine.
Ask the insurance company that you are thinking of tracking the car and if there would be any coverage. Explain then exactly the type of event you were in and see what they say. If it's a no, then cancel the insurance and never mention them what happened, it's irrelevant anyways if they aren't covering you. This way there will be no chance of any possible note on your record.
You walked away. Everything else is bull****.
And you are right to be honest and upfront with your insurance. You never know, there may be coverage.
Wheels and tires + engine and some other stuff may get you well on the way to your next Porsche.
If you are looking to sell the whole car try dCAuto. But don't take their initial offer.
Did they at least give you an award for "Most Creative Approach to Turn 4"?
At the time it happened, I just signed my Cuda over to the tow truck company, since I couldn't see any significant value other than the tires (mine were new, too). In retrospect, maybe I should have checked around, but I knew the car was toast. I still miss that car.
No idea what your life is like in terms of how busy you are with work, family, polishing the silverware, etc. Personally, I do not have the free time to part out a car and EBay it.
So, either do that (part it out) or try and sell the whole mess "as is".
A good chance someone on this site may want to make an offer.
Thanks for the pix and story. Coulda happened to anyone in that same situation.
Before I left this afternoon I told my 2 year old daughter to say "daddy, keep the shiny side up!"
When I got home tonight, she looked at me and said "daddy, why you no keep the shiny side up?"
I tried, sweetie. I tried.
Logistically, how would I go about figuring out if the engine still works? I literally have no idea how you do something like that. I'm assuming you can't try and turn the key and see if it fires up in the shape it is in.
9/10 points for sticking that landing. Like everyone else said, the fact you walked away from it is the only thing that matters here. One of my girlfriend's neighbors had their kid put the father's RR Corniche into a wall... they ended up hanging the grille up in their garage. Cars, just like all other possessions, are completely irrelevant in the great scheme of things.
Find out where the roll over switch is and how to re set it. Usually a fairly simple procedure and then try to start it. BUT first just put the keys in the ignition and see what happens, might got lucky and the roll over switch did get tripped.
Glad you're ok, definitely good $ in parting out a car, but think of it like a 2nd job. I rolled an E46 M3, and parting it out was a lot of work. Not so much the ripping the parts out, as much as the selling of the parts, going back and fourth with buyers etc.
Happy to hear you are physically ok and that your daughter still has a Dad. You have a good attitude overall after you rolled your Porsche, and plenty of stories to share, no doubt.
I guess!
Amazing that the drivers door still opens.
If your insurance does not cover Driver's EDUCATION events buy one with a blown engine and transfer the parts over.
What a terrible day! Thank God you are okay. Now it's no consolation whatsoever for what happened, but, just looking at the pictures I am reminded why I love my Porsche. You were doing 95 mph, completely flipped the car, landed on the passenger side roof, and both driver and passenger walked away. Wow! If that isn't a testament for how well these cars are made for both performance and passenger safety, I don't know what is. Agree with the others, I would total this one out and walk away. Parting it out would be a challenge. Sell the whole thing as is, and then buy another Porsche!
Things like this are very sobering. I would love to take my 996 out for a DE but without a cage I worry. Ill will stick to caged cars. I am very relieved the car held up and both of you walked away. Instructors have alot of courage getting into the suicide seat.
I am constantly amazed that instructors exist. They basically said yes to the following proposition:
"Hi, for zero or minimal compensation, we'd like to strap you into a stranger's car who may or may not have any idea what they are doing and you can ride along as they go 100 mph+. You in?"
Looks like I am going to sell the car as a parts car. What would be a fair price?
This is an issue I brought up several months ago with all you track guys. Very sorry to hear that your insurance wont cover, which I would assume not. Glad your OK. Looks like no airbag deployment which is not surprising from how you described it.
If there is a lien on vehicle, you may have some options.
You definitely want to use that third picture for the eBay "For Sale" listing.
Just kidding. Wow, what a stunning wreck. Glad you and the instructor walked away.
I agree with you.
You have to be kidding me here. A street car doing 95 MPH rolls and both people walk away. I am not a PE, ME, etc but the load force of a 2300 lb vehicle at that speed would shear the roof off of most cars.
Sometimes its amazing that people walk away from destroyed vehicles (I think its closer to 3200 lbs.). Others die in what seem to be barely damaged vehicles. Its all about direction of force and impact trauma.
Im not going to point any fingers. Ive destroyed two in my career. Thankfully 20 years apart and walked away both times.
If you're going to cancel your insurance cancel your reigstration first.
Before you do either of those things or call the insurance company, carefully read your policy. Every insurance company has dozens of variations, and you cannot get a reliable answer from talking to them. You may be out of luck, but many times the language only excludes racing, or competition, or timed events, etc. Many policies are silent on it, but representatives of the company don't know any better.
If it's not explicitly excluded the company may try to deny your claim, and I believe you should fight them. You will likely win, and then they will likely pay you then drop you.
Good luck, feel better.
Glad you were able to sleep in your own bed that night. That was always my goal every motorcycle race day over 8 years.
You may ask an attorney to review your policy if you cannot find any exclusions for your specific activities. As I remember it was worded something like "closed course competition events". If your activity was "Driver Education" also having an instructor on board, it may be different than "racing".
I agree, read the policy carefully (having been an insurance underwriter & licensed agent).
You may find that the policy excludes "timed speed events" -- which does not actually exclude PCA Driver's Ed events--but would exclude an autocross (not that it makes any sense).
Just see how it is actually worded and hold them to their wording if it falls in your favor (it's my understanding that the courts tend to side with the party who did not write the contract if there are points of vague wording). Holding them to their contract is simply business....just as they would use the wording to deny coverage. No big deal. But, most likely, you're on your own.
Glad to see you walked away from the accident and no one was hurt. Sorry for your loss. I would first remove the wheels and sell them separate if you can. What is the mileage? Does the engine still run or was there damage?
Glad both driver and instructor are ok. Who is your insurer? Some policies don't even mention track days or "Drivers Education". In which case you have the argument that you were not driving a timed event and you had an instructor in the car. Consider track day insurance from Lockton Affinity before your next event.
WOW, after seeing those pics, I'm glad to hear that you and your instructor are OK Miller. Sustaining a crash of this severity without the proper safety bells and whistles(roll cage, racing seat, hans device, etc.) comes down in large part to luck. Did the stock(street) seat belt hold you in place?
This is the conundrum we who DE our street cars face. Modifying the cars(halo seat, roll cage, hans, race suspension, etc) to make them safer on the track also takes away a lot of the cars usability on the street. However, tracking a unmodified street car at high speeds is very dangerous, make no mistake about it. For this reason I seldom do DE events anymore. I just wish I had the time and space for a dedicated track car.
Also, I agree with what many here have said about handling the insurance claim. I would make sure your policy does not specifically exclude DE events before even notifying your ins. company of your incident, let alone filing a claim. If your policy excludes a DE type of event, meaning your claim will not be honored by your ins. company, then there is no reason to even tell them about the incident. Why risk them noting this incident and labeling you high risk(which also may be seen by future ins. companies with whom you do business)..Good luck getting this all sorted out.
I was tangentially involved in a crossover SUV rollover case with similar dynamics (the vehicle caught air and came down on the roof) - but in that case, the A, B, and C pillars all pancaked, and one of the occupants was critically and permanently injured. Although the A pillar shows a lot of deflection, it's a testament to the design of the vehicle that both occupants walked away (apparently) uninjured.
When I was tracking my Boxster, in the back of my mind, I always worried about what would happen to my head (I'm 6'2") if I caught a rut and wound up upside down. This thread really makes that question even more relevant... if I still had it, I'd install a roll cage.
Got word that the instructor suffered a broken rib but will be fine/make a full recovery. Yes, standard seatbelt + helmet was all either of us had. I "suffered" a scratch on my left hand that is now impossible to see.
I got a copy of my policy and the language excludes from coverage a vehicle that is "on a track designed primarily for racing or high speed driving. This exclusion does not apply if the vehicle is being used in connection with an activity other than racing, high speed driving, or any type of competitive driving."
I am a lawyer and I have consulted with myself and my law partners and we all pretty much agree that coverage would be denied. I am in discussions to sell it as a parts car for numbers that would get me a lot of what I would likely expect from the insurance company so I agree that filing a claim would be inadvisable.
To that end, if anyone wants to make me an offer for it, let me know by PM.
I certainly don't read your posts because they are worthless BS. BTW, I am closer to the correct weight than you are so what exactly is the problem with my post??? It is not a rehash of what you posted if that is what you are getting at.
QUOTE
"I think he may be SOL with insurance just because of the speed involved."
See my previous comment about your posts being worthless BS...
Here's what my car looked like when my daughter rolled it last year at approx 70 mph (airbag didn't deploy there, either... it missed all the sensors):
.
.
Look a little closer, the lowest point of the roof is almost level with then dash. They were were lucky. If the instructor's head was where the roof collapsed this would have been a very different story. This is not a sign of a super strong design.
The Chute is counterintuitive in a way that you actually need to stay on the pedal, not off it, to keep from getting loose. I've lost my brakes there once and luckily didn't collect anyone going straight through to T5...
Here's one for sale with a bad motor. No affiliation with the car or the seller. Just remember seeing it the other day when I was on this forum.
http://dorkiphus.net/porsche/showthread.php?t=30643
Marv's post just reminded me. Look on the bright side, how bad would you feel if you had rolled a GT3 or GT2? See, yours wasn't so bad after all.
I think you should consider what several have said about finding a roller. If your confident in your engine, you can easily find a roller in the $5K-$7K range.
Looking at that roof shows why PCA national does not want cars with 5/6 point harnesses on track with no roll bar/cage.
Instructor would have been held upright in the seat and probably taken a hard compression hit on the helmet.
Any of your lawyers have any thoughts on the driver's liability for the instructor's injuries? Pretty sure OP is on the hook for that in addition to the car's loss. Does track insurance cover medical liability too or just the vehicle?
I'm not an expert on West Virginia tort law, but I am pretty sure that when an instructor sits in a car with a novice driver to serve as the instructor they are assuming that there is some risk involved. An accident (in the classic sense of the word) would be within the class of risks that are assumed.
Had I intentionally driven the car into a tire wall that would be a different story.
So the instructor's health insurance company has no claim? I appreciate that waivers may be signed and risk assumed, but the instructor's health insurance company didn't sign any of those forms and might gripe about paying and might try to beat that money out of someone else, or decline to pay the instructor's bill, no?
Glad everyone is OK. I assume Marie is your recently dearly-departed. I hope you secure a new wonderful ride soon.
I don't think that is the case. If I understand the OPs description of the accident, he lost it at 95MPH, driver's side tires dug in (his driver's side rear tire is off the rim), car went airborne at 85+ (give or take) MPH and A+B pillars on the passenger side took the first impact. The amount of energy that car carries at 85+ MPH is enormous, hence why proper racing cars all have roll cages.
For reference, this is what happens at 40MPH to a brand new car in the small overlap test.
2012 Volkswagen (Passat) CC IIHS Narrow/Small Overlap Frontal Offset (Marginal Rating) - YouTube
I'm not a lawyer, but I am (like many here) an instructor. I accept that there's some risk, and if I were hurt or killed in an accident I'd definitely be upset. But I don't think I'd be in lawsuit mode unless the student did something intentional/malicious, or explicitly and repeatedly ignored my direct instructions. (For example, if I told them three times to slow down, or once to pull into the pit, and was ignored.)
As far as I know my medical insurance company has agreed to cover me no matter what stupid (non-suicidal) choices I make, including instructing DE. They have assumed that risk, and have received significant payment to do so. If the OP decides to offer compensation for the instructor's out-of-pocket costs (deductible, etc.) that's up to him.
+996
I would also say that in the ever increasing nanny state society we live in, there may come a day when you may not be covered by your health insurance at a DE!!
First off I'm glad both of you got out of this with minor injuries although speaking from the viewpoint as a 99 owner and someone whom has had broken ribs - WOW! I wish you well and I hope you can minimize your losses here and move on. I see a lot of these type of issues at my local track (I'm a track worker) and I sometimes wish I had direct communication with people as I'm usually pretty good at spotting potential problems before they arrive at sudden stops. Unfortunately track owners and rental organizers don't take to kindly to my 'interference' so I pretty much have to stand back and watch the havoc making ambulance calls or at best make discrete approaches to people I think won't take offense or blow me off. P car people are far more open to advice then the mixed manufacturer groups I find. Some organizers have no policy concerning multiple spins or wheels off the course (unlike PCA) and it can get a little wild west until the track owner rep is forced to respond. We are seeing street legal vehicles lapping at near World Challenge GT class speeds - without the safety equipment and skill level. Now the super exotic's are showing up, the MC 12's, Enzo's, Zonda R (I kid you not) and they are pretty near DP and P2 class speeds on the straights. We even have people buying race cars and showing up for track days where if they showed up in the same vehicle for a region race event they would not be allowed onto the track due to the lack of a race license, medical and attending a race school to obtain a license. Yet no such restriction applies for the lapping day industry unless one of these organizers have some morals or higher standards and requests to see one. Thank god the people I work with do inquiries on guy's that show up in mid 80's formula Atlantic equipment whom have never held a race license who want to 'try it out' and prevent such madness. (Not to mention he didn't know how to bleed the brakes on the car.) Take care out there.
I don't think that's exactly how it works. In this situation you wouldn't be suing the driver, your insurance company would be. Your medical insurance company has agreed to cover you, but they also have the right to seek compensation for damages. Take a simple traffic accident as an example - someone t-bones you and you incur $10k in hospital bills. Your insurance company pays the hospital, and then they work with the driver's insurance for reimbursement, and if that insurance is insufficient they go after the driver's assets or write off the loss. All of those decisions are out of your control.
This is why I asked if track insurance covers medical or only property. Imagine I am a dummy driver and manage to snap an instructor's neck but not kill him. I am now on the hook for 24-hour care for the rest of that instructor's life. If he or she is married, his or her spouse may seek lost income. I see a lot of people here talk about DE insurance as if the worst case scenario from a financial perspective is a totaled car. No, the worst case scenario is far far worse, which is why it's important to understand what's covered and what is not.
Agreed. Most of the roof crush tests automakers perform are with static loads, sometimes with a platform on the roof to distribute the weight. This is HUGELY different from the dynamic forces of having an airborne car land on a specific part of the roof structure. This damage could have been catastrophically worse, with much more serious consequences than a broken rib.
Yes, it's a good thing the instructor wasn't strapped into a taller seat - but if the car'd had racing seats, it probably would have had a roll cage, so the crush would have been limited.
It's also a good thing the "landing" occurred on grass and not concrete - another few inches of deformation and that passenger seat would have become way too snug.
This thread should give anyone pause who regularly tracks their cab...
Speaking of the passat test, has anyone EVER done such testing on 911s? If you look at safety ratings at Edmunds, etc., they're all "I dunno." When my wife asks if the car is safe for the kids in the back, I say "um..sure!"
First of all I am happy that there were no serious injuries. While somebody was of the opinion that the car (MY 1999) performed well from a roof damage point of view, does anybody know if the roof of the 997.2 (MY 2009) is any stronger. I know there are no published tests, but there must be pictures or experience to relate. I would assume that 10 years later the car has gotten better.
Re: the partial overlap video, I hope everybody noticed that the dummy missed the air-bag due to the rotation induced by the partial overlap.
First, glad you are OK and the damage was minimal (cars can be replaced, people cannot).
Second,
awesome
title for the thread. Definitely followed the "less is more" when it comes to writing, good on you!
Good luck with everything, hope the instructor heals up nicely and you find yourself in a P-car again soon.
DS
The instructor emailed me tonight and said he's gonna be fine.
I accepted an offer yesterday from a parts company, sorry. I would have been thrilled to sell it to someone on this board but I wanted to get this done and move on.
Well, I ... uhh... guess it stays in the garage when I'm not driving it. Given what's happened to other cars I park on the street, I'm happy to leave the Porsche in the garage.
Brief update and an introduction.
Exchanged some emails with the instructor. He is indeed going to be fine. He, of course, was very worried about me. We are trying to harness the power of a mutual worry loop as an alternate source of power but we have so far failed at connecting the output to the grid.
Also, apparently the corner worker reported to him that the left rear tire was flat. It isn't clear if the tire was flat before things went haywire (technical racing term, I think) or if the haywire process caused it to go flat. Instructor thinks that the tire being flat explains how the car behaved after control was initially lost; according to this report it was definitely flat before we left the track on the right side/started to roll. Other available information indicates that my recollection of not getting the car on line is flawed and that the car made it to the apex of the turn and got loose on exit. My memory was that it got loose while we were on the left side of the track. Which really just proves that people's memories are terrible, mine included.
With that said, I'm really not interested in rehashing the actual accident in this thread and trying to determine whether the tire caused the accident or if my driving was the cause. It happened.
But, the combination of my wife's kind spirit and our bank account has brought a Porsche back into my life:
It's the one from Maryland in my "Price Checks" thread. Everything checked out on the car and the dealer did better than expected on price. I really like the color and the targa roof and the 3.6 pulls really nicely compared to the 3.4. The interior is a massive upgrade as well. The exhaust and wheels/tires will need some attention to get back to where I was, but with winter coming here in the northeast having these on it won't kill me. So, everyone say hi to Sasha.
I don't have current plans to do any high speed track driving with this car.
Also, can anyone point me to a quick DIY on removing the front license plate bracket holders?
Which circuit were you running (Shenandoah?) Looking at the picture in the beginning of the post I see there wasn't tire left on the drivers left side. The tire was definitely down or flat before the roll.
Wow! Congrats! I was just talking about you this morning. My car's been in the shop all week, and someone was bemoaning that I was without my car. I said, yeah, but at least the car will be back soon, better than what happened to that one guy who rolled his recently (I showed my daughter the pix of your old one, after it rolled).
Well, this new car of yours looks great! Good luck with it! Glad to hear the instructor is doing fine. Imagine the great stories you and he will have for the rest of your lives!!!
Here's another pic:
She has 61,000 miles on her.
Sold it lock stock and barrel to a guy near me. He bought it sight unseen (other than the pictures I posted here) for more than the guys at DCauto were willing to give me. And he let me have the crest from the hood that is my profile pic even after I sold it to him. He may or may not be talking with GuyIcognito about selling my engine to him. I have given each of them each other's info. I kind of hope that works out because it would be nice to hear that the engine found a good home.
I was on Summit Point Main, got loose exiting the chute.
Thanks to everyone for the nice thoughts.
Just like to bump this as an appreciation for instructors putting their lives at risk to further the education of others to be better drivers.
This is one more reminder of recent:
http://www.total911.com/news/porsche...-sean-edwards/
