Just noticed "The Solution" being sold on the Pelican website...

I thought based on previous posts that "The Solution" was only suppose to be sold to professional shops. Wonder what the ramifications will be if your avg joe buys one to install themselves and something happens within the 12mo warranty. http://www.pelicanparts.com/cgi-bin/...52DRow%2520IMS Discuss...

My understanding was that Ln would void the warranty if the solution was not installed by a certified technician. I'm pretty sure that's what we were told when we met with Jake when he was in Toronto for a workshop. Correct me if I'm wrong Jake.

Maybe it has to be installed by a aproved installer.

Forget who installs it, $2000 for a bearing! Am I crazy or is that a little bit insane? I did the retrofit and felt the price for that bearing was a bit high, but within reason. I think $2 grand is starting to get beyond reason!

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The Solution is more than just a "Bearing"

Well, I know it's a bit more involved than that. Still, $2000 for the parts involved plus installation is very expensive.

Excellence Magazine Sept. 2013, page 137 LN Engineering Advertisement shows IMS Solution $ 1400 This advertisement indicates its for sale to the subscribers of this magazine and therefore logic would prevail that it is sold to the general public.

Haha, I could R&R my IMSB about 14 times for that price.

Interesting... In these threads, Jake seemed to indicate this product would only be available through certified installers and not sold retail: https://rennlist.com/forums/997-foru...-solution.html https://rennlist.com/forums/997-foru...-solution.html

The IMS Solution is for professional installation only and is not intended to be sold at any retail level, or to non-professional installers. The box is covered with statements concerning this and a non-professional installer will not even be able to register the product with IMS Solution. Wayne attended my M96 Engine Mechanical Class two weeks ago in So Cal and I told him point blank in the class that the IMS Solution was never to be sold retail. I stated this in front of 30 other attendees of the class and I thought that both my tone and directness stated this very clearly. I will square this away. The IMS Solution is NOT an LN Engineering product, it is a product of IMS Solution Llc. This product is not intended to be installed by anyone that owns a tool box. Email has already been fired off to Wayne and I promise it was direct. Further, the IMS Solution does NOT carry a 12 month 12K mile warranty! Unless installed by one of 6 Certified Installers in North America it has ZERO warranty. The warranty on this product is at most 30 days. Also, MSRP for this unit is 1759.00 when sold through a Certified Installer. (People wonder why we don't sell the majority of our parts, crap like this is exactly why!)

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Thanks for the clarification on your end. According to the Pelican site, Wayne or Pelican states that the IMS Solution difficulty level is the same or similar to that of the retrofit so one can assume your avg backyard mechanic should be capable of installing the Solution. I'm speculating that could've been his logic in offering it up in retail? Exactly what makes this a professional only job besides being able to control a certain level of QC standards with approved installers? This is just a curious question. I say this since the product is being distributed and not sold directly through Flat 6. I understand bad or improper installs could tarnish the Flat 6 brand but so can the retrofits that have been selling through retail to the public for some time now.

We have put a serious effort into the training of Certified Installers and their evaluation to ensure this work is carried out in a very specific manner. The biggest difference is the "qualification" of engines that are to be fitted with the IMS Solution, which requires extensive evaluation before the retrofit is applied. While it may be possible for anyone with a tool box to install this product, it was never developed for that and the support for such ventures was never created and will never be created. I stared in Wayne's eyes and told him that this product was not to be offered on his site- period. That supersedes anything that he may have assumed and this was only 2 weeks ago. Warranty concerns and the qualification of engines being fitted. On top of that, its a professionally installed product because thats how it is being offered. This understanding is the ONLY way I agreed to release this product for installation outside the care and control of the job being done under my roof. It is being sold to a distributor who ONLY sells to shops, which is the way that Pelican has acquired the units. The reason why we are NOT selling them directly is the same reason why we do not want Pelican to sell the units. Incorrect. This is A LOT different. I may have designed the tools for the standard retrofit, perfected the process and etc but I did this FOR LN Engineering as a paid consultant. I have zero vested interest in the standard retrofit bearing. This is not the case with the IMS Solution where its invention was a product of my brain housing group and all its development work was done under my roof. The IMS Solution shares nothing with the retrofit bearing, which is why it is a product of IMS Solution Llc and NOT LN Engineering. Put simply, the only way I was agreeable to sell these units was if installers were certified and attended my classes and passed my evaluation. MY REPUTATION is the one thats in the hands of anyone who installs one of these units and I take that more seriously than most anyone can imagine. Its not about sales, its about saving engines.

I can understand the potential market for the solution but I dont get the high cost. The IMSB is so easy to replace during a clutch R&R, IMHO it makes since to just replace it a few times during the life of the car.

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Remember, I originally invented this only for my engines. This is a permanent solution to the issues related to IMSB service intervals as it removes 11 wear components from the assembly. Its worth it to some people, for the other people there are several other options. I remember the time when there were no options available at all. As for cost, these units are very expensive to manufacture, the cost that it took to develop this over several years were staggering.

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I was courious about the Advertisement by LN for The sale of IMS Solution Page 137 excellence Magizine What is your take on that ?

That ad is to drive more shops to the distributor. You will not find the solution on the L N site or our site for sale.

LN's site is half dead, no links have worked in a week.

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Heck, I closed my online store because of the headaches. Everything got better for us when we stopped caring about sales and only caring about engines and development. One day Charles will listen to me and will give up on sales, too.

I hear ya Jake... But how else are the new guys suppose to learn about LN upgrades?

After some research today I found that many others are selling the IMS Solution at retail as well. When I saw that it was for sale on Ebay with all the generic, whored out, Chinese parts I almost lost my lunch. With this I'll guarantee that we'll have some sort of major issue in the next 2-3 months and no one will listen to anything other than "the IMS Solution failed". They won't know that it was bought on Ebay and installed by someone at a tire store, and it won't matter, because the reputation will be ruined.

Sounds like your distributor is reading the contract you presumably have with him differently than you are. You either need a new distributor or need to handle the distribution yourself to ensure that only your approved shops get their hands on these...

The issue is the there are "shops" that are set up with the distributor who are nothing more than resellers. They are able to buy the product and then market it, but they are doing this with total disregard to the packaging which says boldly all over it "Not for retail sale" and "Professional installation only". Whats going to be interesting is when people try to register these units with IMS Solution and we require the federal ID of the shop that purchased the unit. As for distributing them ourselves, never again will I even attempt something like that. What a disaster. Its a double edged sword.

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I guess Pelican didn't get the memo as they are advertising this as a LN branded product. "LN Engineering IMS Solution Intermediate Shaft Bearing Update Kit ", even with the LN Engineering logo as well.

Thats what happens when businesses become too big for business. Today taught me another lesson and my next product thats almost done now damn sure won't ever leave the confines of my facility.

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Why do you think the parts are Chinese ? How do you know for certain where, they were manufactured ?

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My statement meant eBay is the place where Chinese whored out parts are sold, generally. I was not making reference to any other product or component specifically.

Jake, you have to stop being concerned with what happens after you sell the product or allow others to sell it. You cant possibly be held responsible for improper installation. Youve put your disclaimer on the box. Its no different than me buying any other part and installing it. From brake pads to crankshafts, the seller is not responsible for the buyers incompetence (if it applies). Why cant you just put the product(s) out there for those who choose to buy them? Its their problem if its not installed properly. Thanks again for all your research and advice.

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Although it the manufacturer's perogative who they choose to sell to, I heartily agree with this statement. I have recently finsihed a full, top-to bottom rebuild on an air cooled 3.2 that turned out very well. I am not unlike many DIY'ers on here who are very careful and methodical. The Solution is not a solution for me, as I am not interested in paying a shop to do the work that I feel I would do as carefully (or more). Of course, Jake or anyone else can't know for sure if I really will be that careful. However, I never expect warranty on work I do myself either. That said, the Solution is not the only option, and personally I think I prefer another, but that is just my own take. I understand that it's all business and I certainly don't have the right to demand that a manufacturer sell to me.

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Please share your thoughts Which Other option do you Prefer ?

I wish you were right, but thats not the case. In today's world where everyone has a method of inflicting pain to any vendor with the stroke of their keyboard people will jump to the worst conclusion and then go spout off as soon as they stump their toe with a problem. The readers of those post read nothing except "this part Raby developed broke" and then the BS starts. The more expensive that part was the more BS is instituted and the louder the keyboard warrior will scream bloody murder. The poster won't say what happened and he won't tell you that he botched the install, because he doesn't even know that he did, because he has zero experience at the level required to qualify his engine for a proper retrofit. Fact is just installing this unit into an engine that has one of the other 23 modes of failure occurring is whats going to kill the reputation of the technology. So far this year we have turned down 4 probable installs of an IMS Solution because the engines had other issues that were symptomless and found during our qualification of the engine prior to the IMSS installation procedure. Other people don't care about this and even other shops don't, they lose nothing if their hands go inside the engine and then something fails later on. You can guarantee that if an engine fails the very first thing that gets the blame is the expensive part that was "just installed". Then a finger pointing exercise ensues and my time gets wasted. Yesterday in another thread someone said "The IMS Solution would be more of a consideration for me if it had a better warranty". My rebuttal to that is I know a little too much about these engines than to place an exquisite warranty on my product so I can engage in even more finger pointing exercises with someone who has had another of the 24 modes of failure take their engine out, and even take out the IMS Solution to a point where no one can conclusively tell what has occurred as a primary mode of failure. These are the things that we work hard to avoid through product development, extreme testing and after sale support, to include ensuring that the proper installers can source the components. That said, what I do here is not a job, it is a life that I have lived since I was just a child. I take what we create very personally and thats why things like this hit home so very hard. I can't just say "sorry sir, your engine blew up and I just work here, so I don't give a damn". Even if I could say that I wouldn't, because if we have even a stupid issue I lose my appetite for days and can't think about anything else. Its called heart and its called pride and no piece of paper called a warranty can buy that. The IMS Solution has a 100% satisfaction rate today but since I know that the units have fallen into the hands of others I do expect to be engaged in some sort of a finger pointing exercise in the future because of that. This crap makes me want to retire before I even hit 40 and let someone else deal with it. Anyone who wants the challenge of their life, feel free to contact me.

With Jakes shop being the exception, this statement applies to the majority of other shops out there. No tech or mechanic cares about your car as much as you do. I can cite numerous examples in my own experience and have seen many others here. Loose bolts, missing bolts, trans disasters, etc. Please refer to the photos of two recent IMSB/clutch R&R jobs. One done by the car owner and one done by a "shop". The filth on the engine where the IMSB work is being done is pathetic. An owner doing the job takes much more pride in the work because its his. As members on here have proved, many repairs can be done better by the owner than a "shop". Again, Jakes excepted of course. His shop is truly one of a kind.

My car just left to be delivered to Jake to have the solution done. Its a small price to pay to have the job done right. By the right people. Jake has every right to the price he gets for the part and the service as do the qualified shops. They spent the time and training to do it right. We aren't talking about a small block chevy here these are expensive engines. I could do the work myself with the proper tools, sure. I decided to ship it from mass to Georgia to have the pro do the installation he designed and developed for just that reason. I know the work is being done the right way by the right people and I also know Jake will back up his work and product. I for one am honored to have this man and his shop working on my car. Just my 2 cents.

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Thanks for the kind words, sorry it took us an extra couple weeks to secure you a shipper. Its been a challenge grabbing cars from Boston for about a year now. With the car shipped, now its our turn to make things happen :-)

Hi Jake It could be because I think the shippers know how bad the traffic is up here. The shipper got caught up in Friday summer traffic in Boston and it took him 3 hours to go 40 miles. I felt bad for him when he got here. I look forward to hearing from you and all those kind words were earned by your obvious dedication to your craft.

Some areas are hard to ship from. Oregon is the worst, no one wants to ship to/ from that state. Boston is the only NE state thats a challenge, but Pennsylvania has recently gotten a little tough.

Even Canadians know that Boston isn't a state.

Of course that should read "only NE area".

I beg to differ Sir, The Peoples Republic is more like a state of Mass confusion....and from one born and lived here his entire life definately not part of the Union. I cant wait to leave. Soon, very soon I will be living near Jake in Gods country

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For my own personal set of reasons, I like the direct oil feed ball bearing combo. However, I put my comments in this thread in which a lot of options are being discussed: https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...ims-fix-2.html LN makes great products and I am certain the Solution is top-notch too, I did not mean to detract from it, rather just noting that there are more choices now.

Jake why don't you just cut off the pipeline right now to distributors and only send them personally to your 6 certified installers?

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Because he wouldn't sell as many.

How this can be fixed is to only sell the product WITH the installation price included. Have a set price agreed by the certified installers and included in the sale of the bearing. The only problem with that will be the huge number associated with the advertised product. However, since this has to be paid by the buyer anyways, just show it all.

That's price fixing and is frowned upon in the automotive industry. It is also illegal in some states.

Isn't warranty repair at dealers are price fixed too them? Can this be handled in a simmilar matter?

Dont let this get you down. You are a problem solver and you will solve this problem also.

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This is a much different as the vehicle manufacturer is paying the bill for warranty repairs. Trust me guys, it takes a lot more than this to get me down. It just seriously pisses me off that its this difficult to properly sell things these days. This wasn't the case a few years ago when people were more mechanical, today even technicians are no longer "mechanics" because all they want to do is plug a device into an OBDII port and solve an issue. The days of mechanical manipulation are pretty much gone. Thats the reason I have Porsches here from 21 states, its not that we are that damn good, its that everyone is that damn lost, doesn't care and are not willing to take the risks to tear into things. I travel all over North America instructing my M96 Engine Mechanical class and I have classes that typically have 25-40 attendees. In general as I look out across these classes people are lost and their questions are so elementary. In those classes typically 1-2 people impress me and the rest are generally lost, or they are falling asleep because their boss is paying the bill and they don't care. This isn't the case in Canada where we have the best attendees and have the biggest classes over and over they are sold out. This is why we have taken the effort to seek out the best installers to certify and have made them pass evaluations to support the IMS Solution installation. Anyway, this is the part of a product that I care nothing about- sales and marketing. My part of all this is done deeply behind the scenes at the root level and once its on the market I just have to turn it off. I do all of this to make my engines better through the evolution of product and engine development. Unfortunately for us to have the parts for our engines we have to sell some of them to allow the volumes of sale to be great enough to manufacture all of them in the USA. The same thing happened with the Joe Gibbs DT40 oil, for years we were buying this and not selling it, only using it. There was no fancy bottle and no marketing, it was our secret weapon; then we had to start selling it so 3,000 gallons per year could be made. To give you an idea about how much I hate to sell things, we don't even sell this oil ourselves, even though it has my name on the bottle. You can buy it at Summit or Jegs, but you won't find it here unless we carry out our procedures on your Porsche. As for having a standardized price; well I'd never do that because these products are installed nationwide and worldwide. The labor rates in California are 50.00/ hr more than they are in Tennessee and so on, so forth and etc. The easiest way to solve the problem is to simply not care. Unfortunately I can't do that, even if I try. I am going offline for a while, so you won't see me here. I have 9 week backlogs on IMS Solution installs, 5 month backlogs on my Stage 1 engines and 13 month backlogs on my Stage II, Stage III and 4 liter engines. On top of that I have two new tools designed to work through patents on, final testing of our CNC ported R51 heads to complete and on top of that I have a book to finish and publish before next year's Porsche Parade where I will be a technical presenter. If thats not enough I have an engine mechanical class to instruct once per month, too. Jud may use this log in from time to time in my absence. See you guys around.

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This statement alone would give me concern as to the quality of components in the distribution pipeline at this time. Is it fair to say that anyone contemplating purchase of an "IMS Solution" should hold off at least until some of these distribution channel issues are worked out?

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To clarify: There are no "Chinese IMS Solutions" out there (at least I hope not- it usually takes the Chinese a while to find things to copy). I was stating that eBay is a gathering place for the bottom of the barrel automotive components in general, and that I was disappointed to see the IMS Solution being sold there. Its almost like seeing a very expensive wine sold along side some Boone's Farm at the store. Each IMS Solution is sold with a serial # and a serial # decal for the vehicle it is installed into, along with specific registration information that matches that of each production run. This information is held by IMS Solution LLC to ensure that there are no fake units out there. ALL of the units that we have delivered have passed our QA inspections that Charles and I carried out personally by measuring and inspecting each and every unit ourselves and even boxing them, sealing them and shipping them. That said, there are A LOT of Chinese copies of the other products that we have developed on the market today. Most of the time the people copying them are sol bold that they won't even change the design or appearance at all. They just anodize it a bright color and throw it up for sale on eBay.

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+996! Jake and his team at Flat Six installed the IMS Solution on my 996 three months ago. I couldn't be happier with their service and professionalism and I view it as a small price to pay for peace of mind.

I paid my mechanic $1,725 for the parts, and a couple hundred bucks for the instillation. I posted pictures of the bill/receipt in the albums section (Jim's....). You can also see a picture (2) of my perfectly good IMS bearing that was removed.

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Dunno and a bit confused. The receipt says close to $1500 in labor. Am I missing something? Also the looks of the IMS itself doesn't necessarily mean it's good(broken record).

Jake, surely you can't be implying that installing the IMS bearing or the IMS solutions is beyond the capabilities of "MOST" independents and or Porsche dealers? I had my IMS installed for peace of mind pre-purchase at Stevinson Porsche and I can tell you they seemed pretty not only professional but also very competent and 34k miles later car is and IMS bearing are both going strong. My local Indy J&W Imports who has serviced my car since 2010 and also has installed several IMS bearings over the years also seems pretty competent and capable of doing not only IMS bearing installs but a whole heck of a lot more. If it blew up tomorrow I am positive he is more than up to the task of rebuilding a stock or stroker motor for me. So, while I get that you are selling a product you are obviously passionate about the rhetoric is just a HUGE turn off for me. my .02

So what are the "engine qualifications" for IMS Solution insatllation?

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That the engine not be failing from some other mode of failure, or from IMSB failure. Also, any engine with debris in the oil must not be retrofitted.

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I hate to do this. I really do, but for those old enough to remember "The Beverly Hillbillies", Granny developed a cure for the common cold. Mr. Drysdale was all over it, ready to invest until Jed told him how the "cure" worked. You took it, then a week later you felt better. Sound like The Solution works great for cars that ain't sick.

Absolutely. The Solution states right on the box "For preventive application only" The last thing we want is the Solution being installed into engines that have suffered an IMSB failure and have experienced hidden collateral damage from that.

Stop pestering the man with questions - he's got a backlog of work!