I'm nuts aren't I?

Let me first introduce myself. I'm 24 and an engineer in New England. Been driving my Saab for about 2.5 years now and, quite frankly, it's just a car. I'm a biker more then a driver and the Triumph down in the garage of my building gets as much use as the car. I work on both these myself, and have no reservations about any kind of car work. Doesn't hurt I have a few friends who are former mechanics and access to a two post lift. Anyway, reason I'm here, this past winter I finished paying off my student loans and began considering a nicer car. My Saab isn't bad, it just needs some work to make it really nice, and to me it's not worth putting the money into it. I'm also a RWD guy. First car was a Volvo 940 and had no issues driving it around in the snow on half worn out all seasons. Never did miss a day of class in college. Anyway, starting around November I began driving anything a salesman would give me the keys too. Anything from Honda Accords to Mustangs, BMWs, Audis, Mercs and so on. Can't stand the Mercs, the BMWs are as much a badge as anything else, and the Audis have that variable power steering. Not to mention putting power to the front wheels ruins steering feels and I hate the idea of lugging around several hundred pounds of junk for the one or two days a year it would actually be useful. Besides, when it gets bad enough to need AWD, you need ground clearance which and A4 or A5 simply doesn't have. I'll stay home or call my friend around the corner with a Jeep. At some point by a fluke I ended up driving an older Boxster (I believe 01) and couldn't get over the way the car felt like a go cart. The car simply felt right. Kinda wish I never drove it.... Eventually, I drove a Cayman S back to back with a 99 C4, and later that day a 997 C2S cab. All of these cars were simply special. My favorite being the 997, however I think I'm just getting carried away when I start talking that price range. So, for the past month, I've been back and forth. 911, gen 1 Cayman S or Gen2 Cayman. I liked the 996 better then the Cayman S when I drove them. As much as I think the Cayman was a better sports car, with a nice hit in the power band and awesome sound when you put your foot down, the ride wasn't quite as nice as the 996, smooth, but I felt things in the road I simply didn't in the 996. I wish I could go back and see what options were on it, but alas, this was quite a while ago and it's been long since sold. I also like the additional width in the 996 seats and seem to be picky with my seat. (I won't even look at a BMW or Audi without sport seats to give you an idea) Still with me? Good... so my plan as it sits right now (check back in later and it will probably change) is to have cash for whatever I buy, or close to it, either in investments I can sell, or quite literally cash in the bank (working on investing now, waiting for the funds i'm looking at to bottom out a bit first) then finance as much of the car as I can. Might as well play with other peoples money. I also want to keep payments at or below what I was paying towards my student loans every month ($500) which puts me right around 30k for 60 months if I did my math right, and it seems I can get into a 996 C2 pretty easy for that. I love the idea of a Porsche too because, while expensive to repair (IMS, GULP) they very rarely actually need anything beyond basic maintenance, which I can do myself, or for a 12 pack. So, question is, am I completely nuts and committing financial suicide here? Or should I just fix my Saab, and drive it? (Seems anything else is just a car, so why bother upgrading? Yes a new BMW or whatever would be nice, but not 30k nice.) Edit: I should probably add, I have a 3.3 mile commute. and currently put about 7-10k on the car a year.

I am 25,I bought my 996 a month ago. It all depends on how much you are making and how much you have for "oh sh*t" expenses. I am in the financial sector, as 2nd year analyst I am cresting 6 figures. I went into 996 with understanding that I am taking the risk if it fails, I will have to cross off the $17k for it. I am fine with losing that 17k. Considering the depreciation and monthly payments you would have to make on the brand new Porsche, 996 makes a great bargain. If your car works well for one year, it pretty much pays for itself as brand new 991 lease/finance payment is over $1,100.00/mo. If 996 is your only car and you would not be comfortable losing the money you paid for it, I would wait. I have 2003 acura tl-s for daily driving and as insurance policy against Porsche spontaneously turning into garden ornament. Also, if you can do your own work that saves a ton on maitenance costs. Porsche dealer and indy prices are extremely high. All but most complex services can be done by DIY person.

I'd urge you to reconsider the Boxster and Cayman. The 996 is a great car - I love mine and plan to keep it forever - but if you're not especially married to the idea of owning a 911, the mid-engine platform is really hard to beat, and the cost of admission for a Boxster or Cayman is a LOT less than most of the rest of the mid-engine performance cars currently available. The 996, especially the earlier models, can be inexpensive to operate, but they can also be very expensive, and you won't really know which you've gotten until you buy in. I bought a CPO 2003 Boxster 5 years ago for just $25K, and didn't put a cent into it except for scheduled maintenance over the 3.5 years I owned it. I paid $30K for my 996 a little over a year ago, and I've put well over $5K into it (brakes/rotors, fuel pump, water pump, clutch/IMS bearing, air-oil separator, coolant overflow tank, etc.)... and I've done my all own work for everything except the clutch, IMS bearing, and AOS. If you can find a 996 that's already had the stuff listed in the previous sentence done, there's a good chance your operating costs will be quite low for several years. If you get one that hasn't had all of these items done, you're going to put money into the car. If the motor in a CPO Cayman goes, your total exposure is the inconvenience of not having it available to drive. If the motor in a 996 goes (which is a possibility in ANY used car that's nearly 15 years old), your exposure will be between $5K and $15+ K depending on how you proceed. I can't encourage you enough to get a Porsche, but for your first Porsche, a CPO Boxster or Cayman might be the ticket.

Are you a gambling man? If so your odds on getting a good 996 are very good. Estimate 5% going bad, that's 1 in 20 cars. You stand 19 to 1 shot of picking a good car. I would lay good money out on those odds. I did and picked a good one. I might add that I knew nothing about the 996 engine and its mishaps when I bought mine but still would take the gamble. I have never drove a car as good. So I say buy 996. I have the 99 cabriolet. I have put almost 22000 miles on it in just over 2years. No iffs or buts.. Get your finger out and buy one.

I'm not married to the idea of the 911, and as I said, I actually think the Cayman/boxster is a better sports car then the 911. Not to mention the updated interior is quite nice. The 911 being a better GT car, and when my hair really is on fire the Triumph will probably get taken out. I haven't gotten my hands on a base cayman... yet... and unfortunately they aren't common, the 911 being a bit easier to find used. Anyway, back to the Cayman, as of right now there doesn't seem to be much within 500 miles, and the CPO's in the sub 30k range really don't seem to be around. Not to mention on average they simply can't be worth it, no company would offer that if they are loosing money on it. And I have a thing about 5spd gear boxes... I just don't get along with them. Every one I have ever driven seems to have an gap somewhere. And yes, this will be my only car, that includes when the white stuff is falling, and an IMS failure would mean writing off the car, and unless I get a gen2 Cayman (which is pushing the budget, though I'm probably 9 months out on a purchase so who knows what values will be at that point) that is an option. And I can find a MK1 996 for 10k less then a gen 2 Cayman. I've been rolling this around in my head for 6 months now, and being porsche exclusive for about 2. Not sure I've had the same plan for more then a week yet, hence I finally posted. It's almost embarrassing the amount of reading I've done on here. And unfortunately there isn't a car out there without some kind of catastrophic problem. Heck my Saab is known to sludge up and blow the engine...

You're not at all crazy. A good 996 can be had for $20K. Spend a few dollars upgrading the IMSB for insurance or find one that has had the job done. It'll be helpful if you are prepared and able to twist a wrench or screwdriver now and again...but not any more so than with any other car. The cars eat rear tires too - gotta budget for that. At the end of the day the 996 is a very well built car. Mine has been dead reliable and a pleasure to own and drive.

With only a 3.3 mile commute, you will never get the 996 up to operating temperature, which is bad for it. I'm an engineer too; I did NROTC at school so without having any student loan debt I bought a 944 as a sophomore and then the 996 when I graduated. I love the 996 but it could not be my only car. I use it for autocross and track days but don't do long trips with it very much as it is not that comfortable with the konis and the muffler delete (not for everyone). I think the cayman / cayman S would be much more liveable with the boot for extra storage, but a C4S would really fit the bill if you are going to try and drive it year-round, even though you said you want RWD.

I was fortunate in my parents paying for half, and getting an inheritance early, so I came out with so little debt it was easy to pay off. Community college for the first two years was probably the best thing I've ever done. As for the 3.3 mile commute, it takes probably 15 min and tends to at least get the water temp up. I also travel back to NY at least once a month to the tune of 300 miles round trip.... btw, what you guys getting on the highway? And I suppose I could start going to the market outside of the city, (I don't exactly live in the best part of town, but have indoor parking, so going to a better part of town for the market might not be a bad idea) but I knew that could be an issue. Though means generally I'm not to worried about fuel economy, I swear the Saab uses more gas starting then getting to work. Also come the winter I'd like to be hitting the local ski mountain once or twice a week after work, which is a solid half hour one way. I think the IMS upgrade would be required too... I seem to remember it being possible engine in car... but maybe the trans needs to come out? IDK, crap shoot no matter what I do and it's bugging the heck out of me. Though a quick google search shows you can get the engine re-built for 6k or so... guess really worst case I hope it's not snowing, take the motorcycle (not the first time I've been bike only, saab blew the AC compressor and I decided not to drive it till it was fixed) and rebuild the engine. How much worse can it be then a motorcycle? Actually, now that I think about it, if I can get a 996 for say low 20's compared to high 20's to low 30's for the cayman (and being an older car it seems insurance will be about half the Cayman... actually within 100 of what I pay now according to progressive, though I have Allstate) I could toast the engine, put a new one in, and still be ahead on investment compared to the cayman, and i'd guess the 996 is must closer to bottomed out in price then the Cayman would be, possibly to the point of lost money on a 996 with a blown engine would be similiar to a cayman that doesn't blow.... hmmmm.... I need to stop if i'm going to get any sleep tonight... 530am comes way to quickly. BTW, anyone know what actually gets taken out when the IMS bearing fails? is it just and heads? or does it take out the block with it?

You are over analyzing this. Buy it, enjoy it, move on when you are done with it.

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I can answer most things here: 3.3 miles and city driving is not a strong suit of 911. Even though my is tiptronic, it does not enjoy put putting around below 3k RPMs. You will not enjoy the car much when doing the work commute. On the freeway, it is an excellent GT car. Very comfortable, and gets great mileage. With AC on and doing 80+ MPH I would get 25MPG. When driving slower, you can nudge it towards 30MPG. 996 is fine to leave in the bad neighborhood. It is a $20k car at the end of the day and you have full coverage insurance. If bad things will happen, they will happen. Don't sweat it. However, if you are worried about IMS and things going wrong, you will not enjoy owning the car. 911 is meant to be driven and enjoyed. Don't baby it and don't treat it like a family member. Treat it like a car and treat problems like you would on any other vehicle. IMS is one of many things that "could" go wrong, but you can also break your neck getting out of the bed in the morning. MPG on my car.

If you factor in a preventive update to the IMS (maybe it will be done on a few examples you'll find). Or catch (negotiate) one that needs a clutch... it's at best $2k. Not worth writing off a 20K or more car for $2k in preventative. The search is always the fun part. These cars are easy to work on by relative standards... and rewarding to do so. I drive my 996 year round (snow tires here in Co). You're right about ground clearance being the biggest hurdle.

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Do it - got mine 2 weeks ago (IMS Solution already installed so I have peace of mind) and I love it. Nobody ever talks about the "Saab Experience".... It takes some time to get used to driving, but I am getting more and more used to mine every day and loving it as I do.

Saab... there is a substitute. Or several.

Since the Cayman didn't come out until 2006, they seem to be quite a bit more expensive than the 996's. From what I remember, it would have cost $30k+ for a nice Cayman S while you can find multiple nice older 996 examples under $20k. I think all this IMS fearmongering has really depreciated the value of our 996's. That being said, I may have preferred a Cayman S (never actually drove one) but I absolutely love my 2002 Targa...

I would agree that you are over analyzing the choices. Hey, I did the same thing. One thing I can say after 26 years of various 911 ownership is that they are truly fantastic cars. I bought my first 911 at 20, paid cash... after spending a year deciding what to buy. As an engineer, you will appreciate them for more than just the driving factor- they are wonderful pieces of engineering. As for the Cayman and Boxster, they are all well and good if you can fit in them. At 6'2" and 185, I am not a fan of folding myself up to get into a car... Have fun with your choice. You have found the perfect support group here! Cheers, TomF

Agreed, I sat in my coworkers Cayman and it felt quite cramped compared to my 911.

The Cayman S and the Carrera C4 are really two different cars. I mean this in terms of the driving experience, and to a lesser extent the reliability. I own an '06 Cayman S and an '01 Carrera 4. Compared to the C4, the driving experience in the Cayman is sharper, stiffer, quicker, and I am more comfortable throwing it into curves. It makes more mechanical noise inside the car (nice) and more road noise as well (not necessarily so nice). It is a tight cabin especially in length and my 6'-4" frame barely fits. The seat is more narrow and stiffer, but in my experience it is actually quite comfortable on long drives. IMO the C4 is a better GT car in that it is smoother, more quiet, more roomy, and in general it feels "larger", when in fact it is only about 300 LBs heavier and is similar in overall length. The C4 has that inherent Porsche feel and there is something about the way it goes around corners and punches out of a curve that is amazing and apparently unique to the 911 rear engine layout. They are different and the only way to figure it out is to drive both (again) and see which one you are most comfortable with. Another thought is to start with the 996 as it will be less expensive vs a Cayman or 997. Then move on to your next Porsche later as you become more aware of the car's differences and your circumstances and needs change.

I'm 6'2 and 230, and I fit perfectly in the "smaller" 986 Boxster.

Just a quick suggestion, look at a 993.....

RedRider - depending where you are located in NE, you might want to come to Lime Rock this Sunday for the Vintage show. A number of us Rennlisters will be there and I'm sure would be happy to answer questions

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+1 I have short commute as well 6 miles +/-to but I get her up to operating temperature and even the short commute to and from work still puts a smile on my face every time rain or shine. As far as repairs had a window regulator go, a breather hose slit and other than scheduled maintenance and an IMS pre-purchase just gas and tires for last 3 years. So, yea if you dreamed of owning a Porsche like I did growing up only a 911 will do.

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Depends on if i'm on the bike or car how far I am... however my parents want to come out and visit so my weekend is kind of tied up at this point. Anyway, looking around on cars.com today (work is... slow...) looks like if I go private party, with 70-90k miles and early 996, 15k isn't all that unreasonable... That being said I haven't seen these cars in person so for all I know they aren't worth the gas to see them... That does move up the purchase window though since instead of saving another 10k, its more like I can do it now.... hmmmm... OH, since I can't come out this weekend, anyone here drive there car in boots? Or just have big feet? I'm around a size 11 and don't actually press on my brake pedal very often, and if I try to drive my Saab in the boots I have on I need to left foot brake because my foot gets caught on the brake pedal. (I'm in manufacturing and wear steel toe boots to and from work since I need to cross the shop floor to even get to my office)

Buy either a 911 or Cayman and some comfortable shoes to drive in. You won't regret either choice.

Comfort isn't the problem... heck I wear my boots all the time because they are comfortable... it's just physical size that's the problem.

I too love my 996 and plan to keep it forever but, if I were in your situation, I would definately increase your budget and get a CPO'd 2nd gen Cayman. They are by many considered the best handling car out there and the 9A1 engines have no Intermediate shaft bearing or intermediate shaft. The 9A1 engine has dramatically fewer internal parts. Less parts, less things to break/wear. Just my non-engineer opinion.

You forgot to add the "poll" option. How are we supposed to vote?

I have size 14 shoes and drove the 996 to base all the time in my uniform, which meant big steel toe boots. Not as fun as driving in pumas but it'll work. The gas pedal is a bit cramped for me if I have big shoes on but otherwise it's good.

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Well, if we are talking in general the poll isn't needed, it's a definate yes. I'm refereing more to with respect to buying a Porsche as a daily driver while not making multiple millions a year.

I too find it odd you preferred the 996 over Cayman S. If I had more options on Island a Cayman S would've been my first choice. If you're looking for more of a GT car, then I guess that makes sense. I can't agree about the "BMW being nothing more than a badge" not sure what models you drove, but as a long time BMW enthusiast, they have been the best cars I've owned. Did you ever try an E46 M3? Or E39 M5? I daily drive my 996, bought it for $20k almost a year ago. Spent maybe $7,000 total on maintenance, and preventative things. A few I remember: IMS Bearing upgrade, clutch, flywheel, RMS, AOS, new tires, expansion tank, mass air flow sensor, basic oil changes, filters etc... Most of the work (besides IMS bearing job) I did myself, and besides the expansion tank, tires, and MAF sensor everything else was more preventative or "while I'm in there" The unreliability of these cars is blown up in my opinion. My original IMS beating at 65k miles was still mint (dual row *pre 2002) Going back to E46 M3's... If you haven't considered, I actually preferred mine in many ways to my 996. Much more exciting engine, I wouldn't say more reliable but cost associated with what it may need is far less (mine got up to 140k miles without any major issues), has usable back seats and a trunk, still has great lines. They have the subframe crack problems, Vanos issues, and need valve adjustments every so often... But in my opinion that S54 was a much more impressive engine. The 996's M96 has multiple "issues" that if happen, you're looking at $15-20k replacement engine, and to me nothing about the M96 makes it special enough for that besides it having a porsche stamp on it. Nothing on the E46 M3's list of more commom issues comes near that... not to mention far better interior. Crap, I have to stop... I'll talk myself into dumping my 996 here way too soon! Just trying to say, a lot more of the 996 is in my opinion "all badge" I do prefer some things about it over many other cars I've owned. Yet, a big part of me giving it a shot was just my lust for owning a 911 one day, and the history, the unmistakable unique curves etc. yet one of my biggest complaints with the 996 is its disconnected, numb, and quiet feel. I'm in too deep to give up the car yet, so my fix is in between maintenance to slowly make the car more to my liking, more raw/ and sporty. If you're looking for more of a GT... It may be perfect for you.

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As I said, the Cayman is a better sports car then the 911, and if I wanted something just to flog then I'd be picking up one in a heart beat. However, the vast majority of my miles are either to and from work where I'd rather be comfortable, or on the highway where the ability to just relax and eat miles is very nice. Twisty roads do exist, however even on two wheels I rarely find myself specifically seaking them out, I just aim for them when crossing distance. My bike is a sport tourer if that gives you an idea. Since you brought up the BMW thing, as far as being just a badge is concerned I'm refering mainly to the 3-series. I just see them EVERYWHERE... the 5series is similiar but not quite as much. As for the E46M3, drove one with an SMG, and quite frankly that transmission needs to go in the garbage can. I'd bet its awesome on a track, but not in the real world, I just need my third pedal if I'm gonna deal with manually shifting. Then there is the tearing subframe, and VANOS issues and manual valve adjustments. I look at a lot of these as almost givens on the cost. I'm also just not as much of a fan on the looks. I would like to get my hands on one with a proper manual and drive it back to back with a 996, however, at the end of the day, I'd rather have the porsche. There really is something special about them. Keeping to something mudane, I'll fix up the Saab and drive it till it blows up.

Completely understand. I was shopping for an E46 M3 when I found the 996, being in Hawaii way too many cars are convertible, and most cars here have SMG (I hate that transmission as well for what it's worth) I was just looking for a well maintained mirror image of my old manual coupe, and none popped up for over a month. I was actually peeking on M3 forums a few days ago, saw a beautiful manual, coupe that was maintained by a true enthusiast, had subframe reinforcements, Vanos rebuild, upgraded most of the cars bushings, suspension, CSL brakes, etc... It made me Upset that it's just very unlikely to find a car like that here, and I wasn't about to have a car shipped from the east coast sight unseen even at $17,000. As far as "something special" I disagree as well. Many Porsches yes, have that something special to them. The 996, with so much cost cutting, short cuts, and inferior build quality (the car was really just a ploy for Porsche to get out of the ****ters) to me the 996 leans more towards the opposite end of "special" but for $15-25k it's a good bargain 911 to experience that rear engine feel. This last bit I'm going to say will likely get the pitchforks Out on this forum, but I've owned two N/A 944's in the past, one was in amazing condition. That 944 to me was more rewarding to drive, as well as much more fun to flog around. It felt more "special" to me than my current 996. Once again though my Idea of special involves more of a raw car. I'm also a rider too, but I'm the type of rider that wakes up at 4 am on a Saturday morning to throw on my full leathers and drag knee through some mountain roads. Or to better my lap times at a road course... I dispised riding during normal commutes as I got better, I hated having to put a flat spot in the middle of the tires. I'm the type of guy I guess that purposely drives or rides through twisty roads, or craves that next autocross or track day. So it's natural that our opinion of cars/ bikes will differ.