Porsche N-Spec Tires

The case for using N-spec tires is made quite persuasively and convincingly by Porsche. For those of you who have decided against N-spec tires, can you share with us why you purchased the tires you bought, what your ownership/driving experience has been with those tires, and whether you plan to buy N-spec tires the next time. Thanks.

I was asked to test (sponsored a the time) a set of Toyo T1R and they stayed on for 2 weeks.........................

Why only 2 weeks. Toyo makes a great tire. Please share

I don't know what N spec is, but I run Eagle F1 GSD 3's and love them. I don't track the car. What is N Spec? I find it rather hard to take if it's a porsche approved list of tires that are suitable for the car, I mean, it's not like anyone would be running old bias plys or something off an old ford truck on there...

jjker - here is a good explination of the Porsche N rating for tires. http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tirete....jsp?techid=26

Yes, Porsche says us should use N-Spec tires....I got a NEW set of non N spec tires in my size for $200...they were just sitting in a shed and my bodyshop wanted to get rid of them...just happened to be the same sizes I needed..so I bought them....I have no issues...mine are Conti Sports, just not the N-Spec...they make them in bot N spec and not...I have no issues. One thing is that the tire company must pay for Porsche to certify and I also think they have to make a variety of Porsche sizes...so some companies (Kumho, Toyo, Yokahama etc) have not had their tires Porsche "certified"...I think if you get a good tire company you will be fine.

Do people who stick religiously to Porsche's recommended 0-40 oil, also strictly use only N-Spec tires on their cars? Just as with oil, I'm sure Porsche's experts have spent lots of $$ and time on research for the best performance and safety tires for their cars. Afterall, tires are just as important, if not more so, The whole car, and it's occupants depend on them.

Not the same as oil....if you dont pay Porsche to test your tires and make them in a variety of Porsche specific sizes, they wont give you a certification....So for example...Kumho does not make a GT3 size tire, or a 19" 997 size tire, etc....even if one of their 17" tires passes the specs for the 986 and 996...they could not get a certification. So in some cases it has NOTHING to do with the tire. Also I wonder what the actual difference in teh Conti's I have and the N spec Conti's....its a $10 difference...I wonder if that $10 is just to makeup the cost to get it certified....and they only pass it along to the Porsche owners....like I said in a previous post....if you get a good tire...then you will have nothing to worry about....

I think it's like "THX certified". Just because your amp/reciever isn't THX certified doesn't mean it isn't up to specs. It just means that the maker didn't pay the money for testing/certification, even though they surpass the specifications and will perform just as well.

Tires, coolant, and oil as well as many other componants such as plugs. filter and the like, are all paid certification for car manufacturers. If you do not pay, you do not get certified. This practice is legal and has existed for more than 70 years. Certification does not, in any way, mean the componant is the best available.

One question with N spec tires. Do you have to have all matching N rating for all four tires? For example, say you have N1 on the fronts and say you had to replace the rears but could only get N2 on the same brand of tire as the front. Is this ok or do they need to be all the same N rating?

Let me start by saying that I am far from an expert on this. When I was shopping for new tires for my Boxster a few years ago, I compared Bridgestone S02A's. The N-rated version had a very different tread design than the other S02's. I also heard from a reliable source that the N-rated Bridgestones had a different construction with stiffer sidewalls. (Sorry I don't remember the source.) As I recall, not all n-rated tires have the same number of plies or construction (nylon, rayon, steel, etc.) as the non-N-rated versions. It is my understanding that the tire manufacturers are not just paying for a "certification" but are building a tire that will meet Porsche's performance criteria. I guess that is what the Tire Rack site says, too... http://www.tirerack.com/tires-techpage-1/26.shtml I just did a quick look at the spec sheets on the Bridgestone, Pirelli, Continental and Yokohama web sites. None of the spec sheets covering tire models that carry an N-rating showed the actual tire construction so I could do a comparison between N-rated and non-N-rated. Hmmm...

No, the number after the "N" has to do with the version of that tire size. Any N is fine.

I haven't done it yet but I will be getting non N rated tires next time. Why? because Michelin PS2s are not available in my size (03 C4S) for the front tires.

I think it is really a disservice for anyone to imply Porsche's N-spec program is little more than a certification program that tire manufacturers simply pay money to get their tires on the list. At least one magazines I have seen did a detailed article about the testing and certification process and they described it as an extremely involved and intense process. If memory serves, the article went so far as to say that Porsche puts more effort into matching tires to their cars (and truck) than any other manufacturer on the planet. Finally, it is my understanding that Porsche N spec tires often differ in many ways (tread pattern, construction, compound, etc.) from the same model tire that is not N-spec. Porsche has built much of it's reputation on the outstanding handling characteristics of its cars. It makes little sense for them to risk that reputation by putting on substandard tires that they made some certification money on. That being said I think there are many reasons one could have for choosing a non-N spec tire. One example could be track use as the only R-compound or track tire Porsche currently test (that I am aware of) is the MPSC for the GT3. A second reason might be cost as there are many lower cost alternatives available in the correct sizes. In my opinion, this situation differs greatly from the "oil" debate for one simple reason. It is very easy for even a novice enthusiast to swap out the tires, drive the car around (or better still take it to the track and compare lap times) and make a seat of the pants judgement about the handling and ride tradeoffs. With oil, the only way you can really know which oil is absolutely better would be to perform life tests on multiple motors (under different environmental conditions) and then tear the engines down to check how each oil worked. Additionally, if you decide to experiment in your own car with oil you may not see the ultimate wear problems (or benefits if your are right) until years down the road. The bottom line (in my opinion once again) is; It's easy to throw on a new muffler and judge the sound, or put on some headers and check the results on a dyno, or put a bigger shim in a GT3 spoiler and judge the handling/straighline speed trade-off, or measure lap times on a set of tires. I just don't see how you accomplish the same kind of tests with oil without a huge amount of raw speculation or big money.

I have had N specs on my car when it had 18's...Pirelli P Zero's....I bought 19's and just lucked up on a brand new set of takeoffs for VERY cheap....I fully planned to ditch this set pretty quick. But to my surprise they were great....I like them alot....Do I plan on buying N-spec tires again...maybe. If I can find a good tire, reasonable price and good performance, that is a N spec, then maybe...but if I find a great tire thats a good price, great performance, but no N spec...then I still may buy it....but its not the only factor in my decision....FYI, I pulled into my office and the F430 roadster has MY EXACT same tires on it....only the rears ar 20's....the fronts are 19's and the EXACT same size as my fronts...so if they are good enough for Fcars, then why not Pcars?

I wasnt implying that paying is the only way to get on the list, but I was implying that I am sure there are tires that would pass that are not on the list because the tire manufacturer didnt pay to have them tested. There are alos LOTS of tires that wouldnt pass the test.

The "N" spec for my contis was a $20 a tire difference (over the non"N" contis) but it stiffened the rear of my car vs. the non-"N" Potenzas I had. The grip though was a totally different story, had the sidewall stiffness but lacked the tread grip, almost balanced the two tire brands in handling. Oh yes, this thread is about NOT using "N" spec tires, I would personally spend the extra money for the rating.

No problem Newport, I was not refering to you or anyone else specifically.

If there is a difference between N and non N (and I don't doubt that there is) why don't the tire manufacturers use different names for them and make it that much easier for the world to comprehend? Dunlop is the only company that has come close to doing this with their 9090 (the 9000 is the non N version). I say close because there are some Audis running around with 9090s. Simply adding "N" does not seem to be enough for a lot of people to e convinced.

Long story short. So squirmy that the car was a danger on the road.

Most (if not all) tire manufacturers have the "N" designation on the tire side wall. My Mich. PS2 tires have N2 on the side wall about this size ==> N2

Great comments though. It's tricky, driving these Pcars with proper gear and fluids.

I agree, but still there are so many people who can't seem to trust that the tires are different because all that differentiates them is a single letter, no matter how large it is. If the name of the model was different there might be more believers. At the very least, maybe it would reduce the number of threads on pages like these. lol

YES THERE IS A DIFFERENCE. MOST PEOPLE DO NOT GET THE CHANCE TO COMPARE THEIR OLD TO NEW TIRE. I HAVE SEEN A MICHELIN PILOT SPORT NO N RATING AND THE SIDEWALL IS MUCH SOFTER AND THINE THAN THE PILOT SPORT N RATED TIRE. THERE ARE DIFFERENT GUARANTEED...

Is it ok to mix say N1 2 front tires with a non N1 rear tires? the non N1s are out of stock (PS2s) for a quite some time and my rears which are 315/25/19s do not have an N1 version. i have a feeling y'all are splitting hairs here and i'm trying to figure out if i want to play.

My car came with N-spec Pilot Sport on the rear and new non-N on the front. The tread pattern was different. (no idea about the hidden aspects)

Wow, old thread but I have some new input on this. I put my stock wheels and non-N tires back on, the rear feels very loose. I had conti N- spec and now have my old Potenzas on, better grip but the you can really feel the sidewall "give". Moral of my story is to go with N-spec tires for sure, there is a difference.

still not buying it i've run non n1 s-03s and ps2s and reo50A pole positions on other super handling cars like the s2000 and m3 and they felt just fine.

Under hard driving, I feel my sidewalls flexing on my non N spec tires....my next set will be N Spec....for not alot of extra $$$ you get the stiffer sidewall....

Simply stated - N rated tires are not the 'be all and end all' of tires. They simply meet a number of certification parameters for Porsche. Better tires are available, it's purely up to the driver to decide what works best for them. What's awesome for one, is unacceptable for another - ask 100 996 owners, get 100 answers. It does make me laugh when the service tech at the dealership gives me that disapproving look for using non N rated tires, like I'm a bad boy who's cheated at school. What would happen if he knew that I didn't use Porsche approved window cleaning solution in my wash bottle...

I cant attest on my 996, but on my M3 Cabrio I went from a set of Michelin Pilot Sports to Toyo T1Rs and preferred them. The T1R is not available in an "N-spec" rating where as the Pilots are... for 1/2 the price, I'd definate put a set of T1Rs on.

Most of the big tire retailers don't charge much more for a N Spec tire than a non N Spec tire in the same size and model. However the N Spec tires are not only internally different but externally different such as tread pattern and overall dimensions. I had some minor rubbing with a non N spec tire which went away when I went to a N Spec tire by the same manufacturer in the same model and size. N Spec tires are different but not neccesarily better. I won't lose sleep over a non N spec tire with the appropriate rating and size.

Did you ever think that a Porsche's engine is in the back, the others in the front. You are comparing apples to oranges.

Correct, anyone who does not believe this, look up the specs between the two tires of the same brand, one N, the other non-N. For instance, the Conti's I had, had a 200-300lb. load rating difference in the same size tire, that points to a stiffer sidewall.

yea so i guess you could say the Nspec tries to make up for some of the 911's inherent flaws wahahhaahah

some of you guys are seriously drinking that 911 koolaid. i'm still left wondering if it's ok to run n-spec with a non-nspec, and given the answers so far, i'm beginning to think it's all marketing and that it's ok to run a non Nspec tire with an Nspec. look i'll run nspec if it were available, but it's not in the size i need for the rears. so since i'm running a non porsche tire since they're steamroller wide, somehow i'm putting myself at risk because i'm running more tire on the road? i'm not taking full advantage of the magical voodoo 911 handling because it's non nspec? it's just too bad michelin's lack of qc led me to this question in the first place. it's a complete joke to have a tire that has so much hop it can't be balanced right and at $300 no less. this is for both the front and rear tire .

Apart from the Boxster of course, and the Cayenne, and the Cayman, and the new Panamera.... They all still get N spec tires - for what reason exactly?

I can't believe the cynicism here sometimes. Geez... It's really this simple: Tires are a suspension component. Every car manufacturer calibrates their springs and dampers for a reference tire, usually what comes on the car from the factory. After that, they don't give a hoot what you do. N-spec is basically Porsche's way of saying that if you buy one of these tires, you're getting what the engineer intended out of your suspension. Whether or not tire companies pay is irrelevant. This also does not mean that non-n-spec tires are worse in any way or better in any way. It's like buying speakers for your stereo... if you step outside the reference specs, you're on your own. You might end up with worse performance, or different performance (which could be better or worse for you), or even better performance. Grasp the fact that tires are part of the suspension equation, and consider the ego the Porsche brand has wrapped up in handling, and the n-spec thing isn't so crazy. Yeah, it's marketing. But not all marketing is bad.

i run the pss9s and roll on 19x12 wheels (porsche tuning bye bye) and diff sway bars so i guess i know which direction i will head toward now i also listen to gangsta rap straight outta compton nspec what?

You should still consider N specs.....why? The 996 is a VERY different car than 99% of all the cars out there...the added weight over the rear wheels alone is reason to go with the N spec because of the stiffer sidewall.....like I said, I wasnt convinced, until I seriously looked at the handling of my car and while it is amaazing, I feel the flexing sidewalls. I would bet a car with less weight over the rear wheels wouldnt feel it...If you are just gonna drive it to and from work, then it wont matter, but if you are gonna do some serious canyon runs, I would consider them.

So...is it okay to use N-spec tires with 15-50W oil...? what about Non-N-spec tires with 0-40W oil?

I think that's correct. When your engine explodes at speed you will need that added sidewall stiffness to avoid complete loss of control

I think that's correct. When your engine explodes at speed you will need that added sidewall stiffness to avoid complete loss of control

0-40W oil? Thats a good trick. I had no idea rheology had advanced to that level.

I dont know for sure but possibly to meet their requirements for handling. There is no doubt that N spec Continentals have stiffer sidewalls than non-N Continentals, dont know for the rest. Case closed in my book.

I can't run NSpecs in the rear even if I wanted to since they're 19x12, 315/25s. I will be running the more typical 235/35/19s in the front, but they will be NSpecs because the non-Nspecs are backordered until June - otherwise i'd run all nonNspec PS2s. your reasoning to go with "stiffer sidewall" due to the added weight in the rear is elementary school bud. what data do you have to even begin to prove your claims (other than your hiney) that the Nspecs are stiffer than the non Nspecs? You can't in my case because again there is no 315 in Nspec. even if i were running 305s, i'd still be curious as to how you came to that conclusion that the Nspecs are stiffer and "better" the 911 handling isn't a glass house. heck you and i both run aftermarket suspensions so that whole holy grail from the factory tuning is completely bogus and thrown out the door in our case.

And there is no doubt the Contis absolutely suck compared to PS2s Nspec or nonNspec next

The contisport 2 is a much improved tire over gen. 1

I use Conti Sportcontact 2 and have no complaints so far. I've read much negativity on them, but can't see why. I don't track the car, but I drive it hard ocassionally.

here's your daily dose of candor for ya fellas: one man's trash is another man's treasure

On my 964 i went with SO2A's N spec on street and track. Fabulous, but really short lived. now, bridedgestone is selling the new 050, which is not N spec, but is supposedly the future of the Pole Position group. i drove a 2003 C4S on the street, no track, with new 050's and they were great. soooo, my theory is, that if you are not pushing the cars to it's limits, for reasonable street, i might go for the 050's for the 996 that i just bought. of course, the PS2 is the reference standard, but i would like to hear some feedback from any 050 users. thanks bob

Are you talking about the Michelin Pilot Sport version 1 or the "PS2" ?? M3 cabrio is a pretty heavy car... how was the steering response on these...

It's all marketing here. The RE050A Pole Positions are fantastic tires that are an equal match for the more expensive PS2s. In fact, they have better manufacturing tolerances than the PS2s by my experience. From a shallow level, I have more faith in QC on products Made in Japan v. Made in France. I just wish Bridgestone made them available in 315/25/19s which they don't so I'm running the PS2 versions which do not come in NSpec anyways since no Porsche runs tires as wide as the 315s on the 911. Given my recent experience with PS2s, I am now an even bigger fan of the Pole Positions. Two of the new PS2s I got had hop with the front being so bad, it wouldn't balance. Right now, I'm running N1 spec fronts in 235. It's fine to mix NSpec with non-NSpec especially for those of you running steamrollers in the back that don't come in NSpec.

You guys ARE aware of what the "N" label stands for, aren't you. Porsche orginally labeled the tires NAIVE and the tire manufaturers could not fit the entire word on the sidewall where it looked good so it was shortened to just "N". There were so many suckers falling for their recommnedation that they had to begin relabeling them N1, N2, N3, etc.

you sure about that?

Missing the point....its not at all marketing....since when did Porsche use ity for marketing? How? They have simply put high tolerances and specifications on tires. They make you make them in a number of Porsche only sizes, and then they have to pass certification. There are great tires that are not certified for one reason or another, but if they make the tire in a N spec and non N spec, there is a difference abd sidewall stiffness is on of the main differences. For Porsche's thats a key issue. If you dont push your car at all you will never know....if you track or run canyons, you will notice the sidewall flex.

I'm talking about BS RE050A v. PS2s, bud. PS2s are certainly the most popular tire for the Porsche 911 brand, but I'd be more than cool with running RE050A PPs for the street on my 911 even if they don't come "approved". I push my car, whatever that means. Sidewall flex? Bro, you ain't even running Porsche factory wheels, suspension. All that magical factory Porsche voodoo is thrown out the window for you and I and others. The last hair you should be splitting is sidewall flex wahahaha and i'd love for you to even begin to try and show us some numbers validating your **** assessment

Actually they are Porsche wheels, and the suspension? Not much different than the GT3 coilovers actually, and because of it the flex if felt more....sorry, but I do feel it on my non N spec tires....Like I said in an earlier thread, there are probably alot of NON approved tires that will work just as good as approved tires because they may not make thin in enough sizes for Porsche....I also said there is a difference in the SAME tire..ie...Conti Sport 2 N's and Conti Sport 2's non N's....there will be a difference you can feel. REGARDLESS of suspension and wheels....Just because there are coilovers involved doesnt mean that tire specs are thrown out the window. I dont need numbers to verify what I feel....so I am just offering MY experience....if you have had N's and non N's back to back, then tell us your experiences...I look forward to it....

We can agree to disagree since I'm not big on splitting hairs. I believe you, though, when you say you can tell the diff in flex between Conti N Spec and non-N Spec, but Contis overall suck anyways so would never ever recommend these tires to anyone. I'd rather run Toyo T1Rs and save some money at the same time. I haven't pushed the PS2 235 N1s in the front yet as they are still breaking in, but that is not to say I haven't taken some turns aggressively to get a feel for the setup. I can tell you that it's going to make 0 diff in driving experience N1 or non N1 235s and then that matched with non N1 315s in the back. I feel no diff in sidewall flex whatsoever. I am supremely disappointed at the hop issues with the PS2s... so much for robotic manufacturing processes. Bottomline, the drive remains a kick **** experience.

I should have clarified my earlier statement....on the rear, where all the weight is, you will notice the flex, thats where i notice it....enjoy the car!

Why do you think contis suck? I just put on a set of contisport 2s (n2) and I think they're great

They suck because they don't grip nearly as well as the Pole Positions and the PS2s wet & dry. They're not even cheap. Poor value.

In the absence of a clear consensus on this thread (and others), and as a result of doing as much reading as I could about N-spec tires, I ordered a set of 17" Michelin Pilot Sport Ribs today rather than a non N-spec tire. I considered Bridgestone S-02As, but they're discontinued (although there is limited availability for the time being). My fingers are crossed in the hope that these tires will be satisfactory.

I find it hard to believe people are feeling sidewall flex when comparing non N - N rated tires. You guys must have Star Trek Enterprise sensors on your ***. Or be doing something really hard on them obviously not being smooth like you would be @ the track. I have just put on some cheap Kumho ECSTA SPT not N rated and these are twice as good as the Pirelli PZero N3 rated tires I had on before. I tracked them both and found the pzero decent but the kumho's are quiter and perform just as good if not better on the track and offer much better grip in heavy rain.

S02-A in 17" are N4 while the Ribs are N2... they are both great tires... can't go wrong with either... I hear the RIBS last a little longer as well... they are also more expensive than the N4 S02-A... on tirerack.com

I heard the Ribs are amazing. Star Trek sensors.... LOLOLOL

Can't say about the PS2's but I agree 100%

I'm sure you'll be happy. To me, you go with what Porsche says match the car best unless you have a specific, informed rationale for doing otherwise. The only people I think are completely crackers are the ones who don't know much about tires or suspensions, but are so confident that Porsche is lying through its teeth that they'd rather take their chances experimenting.

Hey Bruce, regardless of whether your comments were pointed at me or not, it's not about a corporation lying to me and others who choose to make changes to the car. You can do BETTER than what the the factory gives you. It's a part of the ownership experience - to make it yours. And I do have fun teasing people about the choices they make to change-up some things on their 911s.

Definitely agree with that, and my comment wasn't aimed at anyone in particular. I just think that with tires, a person should really know what "better" means before they riff on the program. It's a safety thing. Consider: N-spec tires are rated for, among other things, the added load on the rears. Putting tires back there that lack that reinforcement means that, at the very least, you're going to get some lateral flex under hard cornering loads. It seems to me that lateral flex in the rear under heavy cornering is about the last thing this car needs. So, imagine someone picks a tire that fits, is cheaper, looks good, and seems sticker. And it even has a nicer ride. And then one day they decide to push the car hard through a corner. The tires stick like they're supposed to, but the rear end keeps rotating for another few millimeters as the sidewalls flex... Given how high this car's limits really are, it seems to me there's no question that you're giving up bit of predictability, a bit of margin. Fine if you're a boulevard cruiser, but maybe not a good idea if you're going to push it. If you're somebody who knows a lot about this stuff, maybe you can find some tires that are off the menu but still have the right properties to be a good match for this particular car. But if you're not and you're just guessing, then it seems to me that you're giving up some of that performance potential that you paid for when you bought the car.

I'm using top notch street tires on my 911 in the rear like a good number of others on this board. PS2s. I think we'd all agree they're fantastic tires for the street. So then the NSpec program fans are coming out saying there is a diff between N and non NSpec yet they've never ever provided any evidence as to exactly how they're different and even if they do have diff design/construction properties, they cannot/have not begun to explain how that impacts the drive on real roads. Again, 315s don't come in N Spec since Porsche doesn't go that wide if ever (997 widebodies currently use 305s max width, no?) So am I going to run 305s because my 315s aren't N Spec? Am I leaving something on the performance table? Do I even care to split that hair? So show me how v. going the way of Star Trek sensors funded by your fat wallets. If they did make the NSpecs in 315s, I'd spend the extra $20 or so to say that I've got it and do it for some sort of peace of mind, but it'd be for just that... peace of mind, nothing more, nothing less unless someone can convince me why with facts/evidence/etc vs. anecdotal remarks easily placed in a casual, bloggable format. My point is, if Nspec is available why the hell not it's only a few bux more. if not, don't sweat it. Just be sure you get some quality tires on there like the PS2s. PS - I've recently had bad hopping issues with brand new PS2s - I'd check out the Bridgestone RE050A Pole Positions as well...

Yes, maybe you are. Wider tires might look better, but they don't always mean better handling. So, you're improvising on Porsche's thinking on a few levels, here: Your tires are wider than they had in mind. You've probably had to go to wider wheels so they don't crown. That means you probably had to mess around with the offset, or at least had to correct it. You may have added rotational mass. You've probably altered the point at which understeer transitions to oversteer, since it's unlikely that the change in adhesion front vs. rear was proportionally identical. You've added contact patch in the back, but may not have given yourself stiff enough sidewalls to cope with it. Up front, wider rubber has probably cost you some turn-in sharpness, and increased the tendency to tramline, which in turn could have you screwing around with alignment. And so on. All cool, if you know what you're doing. For my feeble brain, that's too many variables to change at once and hope that the sum of it all is better performance.

As I said when I started this thread, Porsche makes a persuasive and convincing case for using N-spec tires. There are those who follow the recommendations, and those who don't feel compelled to use such tires. I've enjoyed reading all of the opinions, both pro and con. It's been a healthy and productive discussion. Porsche says: "Porsche N-specification tires have been fine-tuned to meet the specific performance needs of Porsche vehicles. Tires branded with the Porsche N-specification have a unique combination of internal construction, tread compounding, and tread design. Using tires that are not N-specific or mixing them with other N-specification tires is not permissible." Frankly, I like the guidance issued by the company and I've chosen to follow it. I also use Mobil 1 and Porsche's brand of antifreeze, and I follow their octane recommendations for gasoline that I buy. These products yield optimum performance and peace of mind. When I go around a corner or an on/off ramp at high speed, I don't want to be thinking about whether or not I have the right tires on the car. Peace.

Here is some info on N-spec: N-Spec and here an actual comparison: N spec comparison

with all due respect bruce, blah blah blah So when you drive your 911, you're able to feel out all these subtleties? LOL Talk about too many variables, man! all i know is, my ride sticks oh so prettttty and so does yours, but if you ever drive my car and happen to like it, maybe i should look to applying for a job at porsche. bottom line Just enjoy the drive my friend, just enjoy the drive. Neither you or I are winning any races around these parts and ain't nobody here proving anything except that they k now how to use the keyboard and lick a few icons here and there.

Here is another view - Porsche calibrates the suspension as well as traction control, PSM, and ABS to N spec tires. If someone has handling issues with non N tires and decides to sue Porsche, PNCA have their defense all lined up. This is not to say that non N spec tires aren't good - they are. On the other hand if someone inadvertently finds tires or a combo of tires that really messes up the performance of the car, Porsche is in the clear.

Does anyone know the differences between the N-spec PS2 and standard PS2?

Dude... if you're allowed to pronounce summary judgement on one brand or another of tires with technical terms like "sucks", then it seems to me that I can share my opinion, too, without being dismissed. Anyway, yeah, I kinda can "feel all those subtleties", to be truthful. I bet you could, too. What's clear to me is that you cruise, you don't drive. You have a Porsche because of how it looks. And that's cool, too. As you put it, "enjoy".

+1

Did you read my posted links? ...3 before yours.

Yes - thanks for that. But those are not PS2s... they are Pilot Sport Cups.

Since I started this thread, it's time for a follow-up. In 700 miles of driving on the Michelins over the past two weeks: 1. The ride is markedly more compliant that the Bridgestone S-03 Pole Positions that were replaced. 2. The tires are noticeably quieter than the Bridgestones. 3. In spirited driving on public roads (i.e., VERY spirited - 'nuff said), the cornering and braking performance was extremely impressive. 4. I started with 38 pounds all around, but now I'm running 36 pounds, which is where I'll leave it. 5. Total cost of tires from Tire Rack was $858 shipped. 6. Total cost of installation locally was $113. Conclusion: I feel that I made a good decision. The tires are everything I hoped they'd be. P.S. I haven't driven the car in the rain, so I can't comment on handling/braking on wet roads.

One more note if you're considering a similar purchase: The Michelin Pilot Sport Rib tires do not include the word "Rib" on the sidewalls. This confused me when the tires were delivered, because there's also a different Michelin Pilot Sport that is not N-spec. However, the N2 designation was prominently displayed on my tires, and Tire Rack confirmed that the tires were the Rib model.

The Rib model has a completely different tread pattern and is not directional, also.

Jamie, you're absolutely correct - thanks for adding that info. You sure can spot the Rib model by its tread design and the fact that it's not directional.

The PS2 N2 have a better rim protection. Best Regards.

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Yeap,..that pretty much sums it up,..for us engineering types. No question there's a difference,..no question what goes on my ride, too. No problem with reading skills here. Best, Doyle

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If you're interested in posing, sure go ahead and get wider tires/wheels without the N-Spec rating, but don't fool yourself into believing it doesn't detrimentally affect handling.

Porsche doc on N-spec tires: http://www.karrera.nl/tires/N-Specification2006.pdf Cheers,

I just put Michelin PS2 on my 996 and they don't list "N" spec in the standard Porsche size for 18" rims ... I like the tires but am wondering if not being "N" spec has hurt the handling. In high speed corners when i pitch it through a highway on ramp, the car feels like it is moving around a bit. Maybe the softer side wall.....

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Who are "they"? Tire Rack has 235/40, 265/40, 295/30, 295/35 and 315/30 in 18" sizes that are N-spec.

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WAHAHAHHAAHA and good luck posing as if you can even begin to get your arms around all the factors involved in getting to any sort of conclusive evidence that running N-spec is faster. some of you guys are so stuck in hairsplittsville it's absolutely comedic

C4S take 225/40ZR18 and 295/30ZR18 PS2 don't have N spec tires in 225/40ZR18 You probably could feel the softer sidewalls on the front, but if they are brand new tires. They need time to wear in. During that break in time the tires don't have much grip at all.

wxseed, I just replaced my old PS2 (rear, 2nd set) with PS2 again, and I feel the same looseness at the rear on high-speed corners. This will go away for the most part. They need about 1000 miles to break-in. Kind of crazy, I know, I'm on my 3rd set of rear PS2 and they are definitely worth it. The payoff is about 28k miles of life, and the looseness will get about 80% better as they get broken in at around 1000 miles. The other 15% will improve over time. At around 5-10k you will not be able to tell the difference. Mine is an '01 C2 with 84k miles and perhaps a C4 or C4S like jumper5836 has better weight distribution and torque transfer to the front that makes this sidewall flex less noticeable and perhaps "broken-in" sooner than a C2. My description is very unscientific, but based on 3 sets of rear non-N-spec'd PS2. My OE tire were the P-Zero, and they were cooked by about 8k and lasted till about 10k. Interesting how the Tire Rack does not list the service description (load index) of any N-spec'd tire. For what is worth, the load index of the PS2 on our size (265, 35, 18) is a 97Y (1609 lbs. per tire) while most non-N-spec'd are 92Y (1389 lbs). So it seems that the PS2 has a stiffer sidewall perhaps under compression, but that does not preclude that they can flex under side-load at high-speed cornering. But like I said, it becomes unnoticeable down their long-life road.

" They are Michelin Canada, no N spec listed. They have Sport Pilot but not PS 2 in N spec ....

Chago996, thanks for the info, I like the tires, far better than the P-zero's I replaced.

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Correct. They do offer, however, the same tire with two different load ratings. My indy put the XL tire on my car, and the sidewalls are marked accordingly. I'm mystified. I'm a pro-N-spec guy, but the PS2 is so widely endorsed by Porsche folks... given nobody seemed to have anything to gain by selling me the wrong tire, I finally just accepted the story that the higher load rating version of the PS2 was as good as.

Bruce p Thanks for confirming the Michelin status , I put the XL on my car, I figured it might be a better (stiffer) tire because of the increased load rating ... They also have a "run flat" but i stayed away from it ...

I don't get it. My PS2 18s are N rated. 235 f 285 r stock size.

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Me either. It really is odd. And odd that I was assured up and down that these XL rated tires were legitimate substitutes.

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Benj, I'm not sure if your purpose is to parody a totally ****-expulsive, obstinate individual, but I'll take a moment and reply as if you're serious. The argument is not so much whether N-Spec tires measurably affect handling vs. non N-Spec tires (they will), but whether your use of wider than factory rear tires will affect your handling balance. I hope you realize that one of the reasons that Porsche uses wider rear tires on the back of the 911 is to compensate for a RR car's tendency to oversteer? Hence, increasing the rear width of your tires, you have a car that is now increasingly prone to understeering. Throttle inputs at the threshold, will not affect handling dynamics the same way as the car is tuned to perform Furthermore, increasing the width of your rear tires makes your car more prone to aqua-planing, and we all know how much it rains in the Pacific Northwest. So while terms like 'tire-slip angle' and 'polar moment of inertia' might make your eyes glaze like Chief Wiggum's at a Dunkin' Doughnuts, I wouldn't write off a whole body of Science as "hairsplitsville."

Great, now we have another religious war to add to the 'which oil do we use', which is best, Mac or PC genre......

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Please don't say the 'o' word...

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[Image-only post; no author-written text. Original image references:] https://rennlist.com/forums/graemlins/jumper.gif

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Do you understand that you have to go to insanely illegal speed limits to even begin to test the adhesion limits of a stock C4S let alone one with a much wider track like mine? It should be rather obvious to someone who purports to have a grip on "handling balance" that running a setup like mine is clearly meant for a street driven 911. Let me ask though, do you seriously have the racing credibility to even begin to exploit "throttle inputs at threshold"? If you do have that experience and background from having driven multiple setups to even begin to speak with any sort of authority (lots of authority in the quoted statements above), then show us what you got, where you've been, what you've done as you go gonzo as an internet QB speedracer. I never once said use my setup to maximize the handling performance of your ride. What I'm saying is go out and just enjoy the drive because if you guys are sitting there with the flat6 humming behind you on your local roads or hwy headed to run some errands thinking "I bet you with the N-specs I'd show that family in minivan next to me defcon5 level "tire-slip angle" and "polar moment of interia" they ain't never seen... you really, really need to get your head on straight and realize... YOU drive a STREET car and you don't make $$$$ off racing your 911. If you do, great, I'll shut up, respect and listen. The probability is you're just another racer wannabe keyboard track star wanting some sort of recognition on the forum that you know all that there is to maximize the performance of the 911. and while you're busy splitting hairs about letters or lackof on a tire... it's clear, you look at the 19x12s rollin, deep dish, non N-spec 315/25/19s lowered on the street and it's no question that it's one bad **** motherfuqin ride. What's also clear is... lay off the doughnuts. They're bad for ya and add unecessary weight.

I think for a lot of guys, it's not about being 'good enough for the street'. Do I drive my car at its limits? No. Guilty as charged. Most of the time, I'd be fine on all-season tires. For that matter, most of the time I don't even need all six cylinders or all 300 hp, and you probably don't either. The thing is - just speaking for myself, here - I know what the car is meant for, and I get some satisfaction from that whether I'm using its potential or not. And I don't like compromising that potentiality. I would feel MUCH more like a poseur if my car was dumbed down to the level of performance I need from it on a typical day. I want it set up for the maximum performance envelope that I, in my fevered middle-aged brain, think I might want to use if the opportunity presented itself. I have lots of stuff that's better than it needs to be. Whether we want to admit it to ourselves or not, plenty of us do, whether we're talking about cars, bikes, watches, guns, televisions or kitchen appliances. It's fun. I don't judge you for a second making the choices you do about your car, which I think is a pretty sweet whip. But let me have my racer fantasy, 'cuz every once in awhile it's real and I enjoy the fact that my car is up for it. End of sermon.

and i am the same way, bruce. i have pss9s, i have quality work wheels, i run top notch street tires... so because my rears are non nspec, someone's going to be able to make that distinction by driving my car? somehow my c4s the way it's setup is lesser than someone else's carrera on nspec? trying to define compromising or maximizing the full potential of your 911 and mine... is a silly task. pls.

I think two issues got confused, here. N-spec: Debatable from a handling point of view. The only evidence on the table is Porsche's endorsement, and a lot of anecdotes from either camp. Wider rear tires: Not debatable. Proportionally wider tires in the back of any car will promote understeer near the limit. That's just how it is. Add AWD, and the effect gets magnified some because your ability to steer with the throttle is muted. Does that mean it's slower? Only a stopwatch will settle that. But there is no question about how it changes the handling. The result is either a matter of personal preference (as a former BMW pilot, you're used to cars that tend toward understeer), or it's a compromise you make in exchange for the look you want (and which you could manage to some extent by monkeying with your tire pressures). Guys who drive stock tire sizes at stock pressures on N-spec tires are getting 'Porsche:Unplugged'. Guys who change any or all of the above are riffing on it, and the results can be better, worse or just different.

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exactly. and hopefully this will happen but i will gladly run with you sir bruce on a nice canyon run or whatever you guys have up there in canada and i tell ya, i ain't gonna be far away from ya cuz i'm running 315s in the back. all that n spec whatever.. easily usurped by driver, ball size, whetheryou took a dump before the run, too many factors... minutiae.

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I think I'm a good authority on how a stock C4S drives. Look at my avatar. My car is factory (ROW M-030) suspension the way the Porsche Gods intended. And no, you don't have to go insanely illegal speed limits to test the adhesion limit of a stock C4S. Just because it's a Porsche doesn't mean the incremental cornering grip are significantly higher than that of a hopped-up 3-Series. How exactly does your set-up improve the streetability of your 911? Is the ride improved? No. Does it track better on the hwy? No. On anything other than glass smooth pavement, you will have to make a greater number of steering corrections to keep the car on track. How about responding with a technical argument based on physics rather than relying on some invalid genetic fallacy to dispute my point? Actually, what's amusing is that you seem to take offense at anyone that suggests your mods have been done for cosmetics rather than performance. In fact, it's blatantly obvious that your mods have been done for street-creed with its faux-performance image rather than positively affecting performance. Why are body-builders poor swimmers? If you understand the analogy, you'd know that throwing on a set of wider wheels, and a big spoiler does not mean the car will perform any better! What's also clear is that your vehicle would not pass a TueV inspection and would not be allowed on the roads in Germany. Hahaha. I'm sure there's a pic of me floating about somewhere here, and I'd wager I'm in better shape than you.

Roberga, your PS2 are N-rated because they are O.E. on the GT3. But I think your rear tires are 295, not 285 according to the tire rack configurator for the PS2. The PS2 weren't available in '01 when my C2 was made. In any case, the same size PS2 non-N rated tire for your car has a different load rating than the N-rated one. So, there's proof that they are different (N vs non-N)

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-PSS9 ride is much improved over stock and corroborated by a good number of folks who have also gone this way. No issues keeping the car on track so not sure at what sort of frequency your Porsche gods are intervening for you via your PSM module in Vancouver, BC. -I would venture that neither of us are engineers or scientists who can even begin to break down the differences between your setup and mine so this is completely absurd -I am consistent about my car being a street Porsche just like yours is. No offense taken, but the thing is, very few people actually point at my car and make any comments about it other than nice car. -My car doesn't drive any worse than a stock C4S; in fact, I would speculate that it drives better and faster than your stock C4S. But we'll likely never find out, right? You're more than welcome to meet me here in Seattle and we can do some runs. You're free to drive my car to see how the non N-spec rears do. You can bust out your calculator and flux capacitor or whatever it is that you have to make your measurements and gathery our data. -I don't know what TUV has anything to do with my US registered car. -Better shape than me? Since you refer to a pic, post it up right here and show us what's up instead of yapping about it. And then we can do like bench press, 400M dash, film it and post it up on youtube and entertain our Rennlist brethren. How about it?

Oh, lord, please stop. This is starting to get a bit Top Gun for my taste. Next you'll be snapping wet towels at each other. Couldn't you just do a whose-girlfriend-looks-best-in-lingerie thing? Or maybe who can PayPal me the most money? Something like that? Just sayin'.

LOLOLOLLLLLLL i can play the girls for rennlist thing no sweat lets see if this homeboy rennlist guest from vancouver will step up instead of hiding behind his keyboard playing porsche scientist

I don't care about seeing any buff dudes. I vote for the girlfriend-in-lingerie pics to settle the score!

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I am ROTFLMAO. Flux capacitor. I love it. Always use the same reference whenever I have discussion like this myself. Anyway, all this stuff is nonsensical on the street. We do it because it makes us feel good about the look and feel of the car. But like they used to say in my neighborhood when I was young, we need to get these two cars on the track and see what's what. I just had my first DE this past weekend and I was blown away with what my 2000 cab could do, much less the GT3 RS of my instructor. Wow!!!!!!!!!

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I was amazed at what an instructor did in his Z3 on stickier Toyos! So my point in all this is, n spec, z spec, q spec, whatever spec... 19x12 or 18x10... if you're going to start trying to prove why it's better and faster and justify via performance/speed claims... then SHOW ME your results. I can show you why I went with bigger, wider wheels because it makes a salient visual impact while at the same time cannot be hurting performance as ultimately all that stuff of going fast comes down to the driver and his/her abilities to work it. I guess I just grew up with car guys who just kept their mouths shut and drove and did it well. They rarely put up excuses, blamed the car, the tires, whatever. They just went about their business and told me to not get all mixed up with the hairsplitting dudes who get their panties bunched up by making things more complex than it needs to be. I have tracked in the past, but just haven't in the 911. I never bring it up cuz it's nothing that'll allow me to quit my day job. BALLLLN! I'll get it out there this summer.

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Hehehe. The only thing I'm taking issue with is the notion that you can make mods such as widening the rear wheels and think that you have no measurable effect on handling. Porsche engineers have carefully selected the right tire size, construction and recommended tire pressures to ensure that the control you have over the vehicle is optimal and when you are at the limits of frt adhesion, you are also close to the limits of rear adhesion so you can induce *controlled* power oversteer when required. By increasing the rear contact patch, you have severely reduced the ability to balance the car at its limit with the throttle because of a reduction in the rear tire slip angle vs. the frt. In other words, while you'd be able to do a carefully controlled power slide in a stock C4S, I doubt you could do the same in your car. And by thinking your car drives better and faster than a stock C4S, you are suggesting that you are better than the Porsche engineers who have spent thousands of engineering hrs making minor adjustments to variable handling factors to optimize the handling and ride. Yet, some yahoo in Washington state has somehow figured out a way to not only improve th4e ride, but improve handling as well by throwing on some pHaT wide wHeElz yO! The above is EXACTLY why your car would not pass inspection and be road-legal in Germany. The Tuv is a respected organization that tests vehicles and its equipment based on a robust scientific methodology. This means that you should not mess with the 'standardized' formula unless you know what the hell you're doing. While you are correct that it does not matter since your car is U.S. registered, it's probably also the reason the Germans are allowed to drive their Porsches at 170+ MPH and you should keep your out-of-spec vehicle at 70

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You have way to much faith in the "experts"... http://www.businessweek.com/globalbi...aign_id=rss_eu

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I'd still rather drive there than here, in some respects. Licenses are harder to get. Crappy cars are harder to keep legally on the road. And more automotive engineering is done based on what the car has to do in life rather than on the whining and bleating of some marketing focus group.

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Mate, do you really think it's wise to be pulling these sorts of maneuvres on the street? You're really talking track stuff here and BC already mentioned that he doesn't track his car. The point he was making is that at the margin, it might matter, but for day to day driving safely (well mostly safely, right Ben?) it's more than fine and he likes the way it looks. That is a load. There are tons of improvements that could be offered if cost management was not an issue. Heck, they would only make the GT3 instead of a Carrera. But cost does matter, so they COMPROMISE a lot with the car in order to provide a reasonable blend of performance and value. Exactly.

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Your argument is commonplace and tired. Again, instead of yapping about it behind a keyboard, go drive a car that's lowered on PSS9s with wider tires/wheels. Polish up your flux capacitor, time yourself, do whatever pleases you... my bet is you'll get back in your holy Porsche gods annointed bone stock C4S and feel... pedestrian or you'll find more excuses to put more sacrifices before your Porsche gods altar. TUV ain't got nothin' to do with me and my freedom to drive in the great ol' US and A. Riding on lowered 911s with bigger wider wheels is as commonplace, been there done that, heard it all seen it all as your ****-retentive opinions already spewed forth. You're freakin' weird, dude. wahhhaah

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My man -American Gangster

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... and market acceptability. There is so much more to this compromise stuff than cost, from the range of uses and roads the manufacturer thinks the typical vehicle will see, to the unhelpful input of consumer research (where the average buyer, even the average Porsche buyer, won't accept NVH levels consistent with the highest performance levels). That's why there's an aftermarket. I wish people would quit reducing this stuff solely to cost, and accept that most of us aren't 'typical' drivers, and are therefore unlikely to be totally happy with any product designed to please the majority of buyers...

the other point is that the aftermarket product is focused on the customer needs. Some people "need" fat rubberband tires and other non track related items. Others "need" track related performance items which do not look as nice on the street. To each their own. I am fortunate enough to have a SL500 for my street use. The Porsche is 90+% track. It is funny in that being a Harley owner it is much the same. Some put on lots of chrome other build out the motor and some do both.

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preach!

I am old so I do not know what that means.^

I'm fond of the "there is USDA meat in there" look but I just can't tell what it is! I don't believe that only the N spec tires are the only tires that perform well on the car. There are many German tests on P-Cars with many different non N tires that do extreamely well.

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Preach!

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I think that's Benji-speak for he agrees with you. What can be funny with the street-setup crowd with their rubber band tires and mismatched wheels is when they do make it to the track or autox. Watch out course workers! Cheers,

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Being of that crowd, what makes you think we didn't keep our stock wheels, dude not all of us like to wear our suits to the gym

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Environmentalists in Germany have strong political affiliations, what's this have to do with the TueV?

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Actually, you can reach those limits quite quickly - 40 mph and a liberal dose of throttle is enough to induce oversteer at a 90 degree intersection. I would say that cost is ONE factor, but it is not necessarily the determining factor. Ben made the mods, which in his mind, look better. If he said, I did it for looks, then fine. However, he has made statements that his wider rear tires/suspension mods are just as good, if not better than the stock set-up in terms of performance and will ride better too. That would suggest a win-win improvement on the stock set-up and this is wrong.

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You're a bit of a space-cadet, aren't you? While you claim my argument is "commonplace and tired" at least I _have_ a substantiated argument. In contrast, I'm not sure how someone can write such a large amount of drivel and not have a single logical argument contained within.

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I've driven a stock C4S like yours. Bottom line, I'd still be driving my beautiful 2004 M3 if I lived in your regimented world of TUV approved Porsche gods that unleashed a commandment 'thy shall not modify the wheels and suspension'. Relatively speaking, it's a significantly poor driving experience. Doesn't look great. Floaty. Common. Next. But we all know how I live. And I ain't never bowing down to nobody's TUV throne.

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And you like to hide behind that keyboard TUV approved no doubt... keep at it. All this so-called drivel is keeping you glued to the monitor... did you tithe this month to your Porsche sect?

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Absolutely. There are always going to be trade-offs with modifications. You could "improve" the stock set up with an aftermarket exhaust if you like a noisier car. You could "improve" the handling by compromising ride quality. You could "improve" looks any way you see fit, as there's no accounting for taste. But to be like Ben and cling on to the notion that there are no trade-offs to his mods and to get all butt-hurt when anyone suggests otherwise, is immature at best, and ignorant at worst.

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Its not only for the environement... people die on the autobahn because of the speed people travel on... but that doesnt matter, its tuv tested so it must be safe! N spec tires are pure marketing crap... just like the engine oil campaign. Porsche is not the be all end all... look at RUF, Id get one of those in a heartbeat.

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You're correct. The U.S-spec MO30 doesn't feel planted at all. That's why I went for the ROW M030. Do you know what the difference between the two is? There is NO difference in the spring/compression rates. The only difference is that it lowers the car's center of gravity, and that is enough to make a significant improvement in handling, with no appreciable difference in ride quality. So what's the trade-off? The US-spec M030 was designed to keep the car at U.S. bumper height laws. US bumper height laws are mandated for safety because of all the silly SUVs on our roads.

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bruce, you know me well enough and my car to understand this dude: 1) is completely off-base; 2) needs to spend less time at the porsche altar and perhaps some time scrounging up some loose change and become a member.

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Yes, it happens so that I did drive a C4S with the Rest of World suspension. After the nice test drive (thank you dealer), I got back in my bavarian hooptie.... ....And thought damn that stock C4S feels like a boat and sits high like an SUV. SUVs are great. I love 'em. Escalade on 24s. That's totally my style.

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People die on highways everywhere. The death rate on the autobahn is not any higher than in the U.S. The NHTSA statistics claiming U.S. highways are safer were incorrect. http://www.ibiblio.org/rdu/nhtsalie.html N-Spec does not mean it's better. N-Spec only means that it's gone through a vigorous testing program and is recommended by Porsche. That means it's probably a much better tire than 90% of the tires you could fit on your car. Since the tire is an integral aspect of a sports car's performance, you can understand Porsche wanting to establish some guidelines. If you chose to ignore these guidelines, well that's up to you. You might get a better tire, but chances are, you won't. As far as the engine oil campaign, the industry has also established some guidelines. That's the pesky SAE starburst logo they paste on every approved bottle of oil recommended by manufacturers. You can of course chose to use Amsoil, which does not have the starburst logo, but you have to be willing to take Amsoil's claims on good faith that it is an adequately performing motor oil. I'd rather rely on the claims of manufacturers that have independent, standardized testing done on their products.

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OK... we're in agreement then. I thought all this time you were saying N spec tires are better. OK so there are 10% of tires out there that are just as good or better as the N spec... do you know what those 10% are? According to you I have a 10% chance of getting better tire. Im sorry I even mention oil... that is even more effed up then the N-spec

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I sure did. I just got a whole bunch of accessories ordered from Valentine Research. It's going to keep me and my Porsche on good terms with the po-po. 1) Hey if the shoe fits...you're a thoroughly abusive person who gets extraordinarily sensitive when the insults are returned in kind. Should we go back through your previous posts where you claim an improvement in handling and ride and ignore anyone that posts to the contrary with 'blah blah blah'? If I was completely off-base, you'd be able to easily refute my arguments, but since you can't, I'm just going to write you off as stubborn. 2) Actually my membership here expired. I tried renewing it, but I moved countries and the form does not seem to accept information from my new credit cards. <shrug>. Damn, that's a low ride. You realize that on a street-car a suspension needs travel to be able to work right? Let me guess, you did it for looks again? We know. We know.

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and you're the kind of guy who would thrive in the military, working in an orderly manner, probably in an industry that has something to do with graphs and charts with a lot of room for interpretation but then because your mind uses logic and order as a crutch, you can't conceptualize and think broadly. you're spinning your n-spec tires in the details. alas, i write you off as nerd. yes, my 911 does handle better than your car. no question. and my M3 as it was setup handles better than your car. no question.

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that's real classy to play off a stereotype. an african-american kid with a truck with big chrome wheels. real classy, bud. what are you scared of cuz we know you wouldn't post up that very same pic if you thought i was black. p.s. that is an adorable kid, too bad it was used in a bigoted manner.

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Nope, I think that's my point. The issue is reputation and credibility. We believe that Porsche has done the testing to figure out what is the best all-round tire for the vehicle. You might find a tire with better dry handling characteristics but worse wet-handling characteristics. Without testing and figuring out what's best for you, who really knows? With the N-Spec rating, I don't have to spend much time pondering which tire to buy. That in itself is the only purpose behind the N-Spec rating.

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Hahah. There are some fields of studies that require one to be analytical, while others require one to be creative. I am extremely comfortable in both areas. I think you just understeered into the ORLY owl.

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Oh spare me the P.C. nonsense. You know damn well there is nothing wrong with that picture. My black friends would never take themselves so seriously that they would be offended by that photo. Hell, the theme of many black comedians is to make fun of harmless black stereotypes. Considering you once call a member's wife a transvestite, I wouldn't exactly claim to be the high moral authority here.

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didn't know you were black, my bad... and a black comedian too? post up some of your performances. i love foxx, rock, pryor, murphy, etc. post your pic in my mug thread. it's only azn and white dudes so far with a little bit of other browns mixed in. diversity rules just like mods.

That's the thing about the Internet, you can be whomever you want to be! Try being a little less sensitive, and a lot more logical mmmkay?

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If you call what you spewed out logic, pls believe, I'm staying far away from it. And my sensitivity to nerds... can't shut that off. I try to not hang out with them dudes. WHAHAHAH you seriously have to be the first african-american gentleman here that i know of.

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Hahaha. So on one hand you celebrate "diversity" but on the other you admit an aversion to nerds? How very bigoted of you. How am I a nerd? Because I'm able to construct a well-reasoned argument? Because you were left so defeated by my wit you had no recourse but to resort to ad hominem attacks? Well step right up to the plate, Holmes, because guess what, I probably have more of a party lifestyle than you do out in those Washington boondocks! And you seriously have to be the first person here that continuously harps on race, as if it matters. You can respond to me - the person, not some ethereal concept of a particular group I might belong to.

I'm riding on the 'new' Sumitomos, if anyone cares for some feedback....

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I have about 500 miles on a set of those and I have to say I am very pleasantly surprised at how good they are. I even like them in the wet. So what's up with all this N-spec nonsense?

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Keep poppin' off, bro, right behind your keyboard. It's ez to do when you're anonymous, in the dark, flux capacitor glowing in your pocket. Nerd. HAHA now you're going to compare not only who's in better shape, but now party lifestyle? Can't even step up to admit that you're NOT black cuz I got you cornered with your bigoted pic post... Like I said, show us what you got cuz we all know I ain't hiding. All you've shown us are the following to date: -you're a self admitted stock setup worshipper ("porsche gods") -you have a hard time admitting or understanding that you are in fact on an enthusiast board where a great many people have modified their 911 beyond cosmetics and are thoroughly enjoying the improvements -you've read up on my posts and you don't like my lifestyle, my image, my whatever -you've shown us nothing to back up your claims of a party lifestyle, your fitness level, etc (big TUV keyboard, no pics) all the above have formed a perfect storm and you've been posting in this forum like you've never posted before. all eyez on me, sucka.

Here it goes:

As the person who started this thread, I think it would be appropriate to report on my long-term experience (over the course of 10K miles) with the 17" N-spec Michelin Pilot Sport Ribs I installed last May on my '99 coupe. 1. The tires have performed admirably in both normal and "spirited" (sometimes VERY spirited) street use. Cornering and braking performance continue to impress, and the tires are both compliant and quiet, generating very little road noise. I haven't tracked the car, nor I have driven in any autocross/DE events, so I can't speak to how the tires might perform under those conditions. 2. I have no valid test results to compare and contrast the performance of my tires with any others on any car of similar type driven in a similar fashion. However, I believe that these tires have allowed me to take full advantage my car's capabilities. 3. I feel that I made a good decision in selecting the N-spec tires, as they have performed as well as I had hoped they would. Further, when I go around a corner or an on/off ramp at high speed, I don't have to think about whether or not I have the right tires on the car. For me, that's a good feeling.

Guys, let's take a deep breath please. I posted way back in this thread and few paid attention. N spec tires are those tested by Porsche and approved for use on the vehicle. One intelligent remark (there are many not-so-smart posts) observed that our tires are part of the suspension and that Porsche specs tires which work they way the vehicle dynamics engineers want them to. Nobody mentioned the fact that the ABS and PSM systems are also calibrated to work with the spec tires. That's part of design and specification for N rated tires. Does this mean that non N rated tires should be avoided? No. There are plenty of perfectly good tires out there which Porsche does not have time to test. It also explains why certain N rated tires have different tread patterns from the (usually newer) non N tires. The Bridgestone SO2 is a good example. Once tested and approved, the manufacturer is not allowed to change any aspect of the tire affecting performance without a retest. Tires with N1, N2 etc. represent tires which have been recertified due to construction changes. So why bother certifying the tires at all? Porsche is OCD about performance. They are also OCD about avoiding lawsuits - they have suffered in the US and they remain (correctly in my opinion) traumatized. By certifying a care with specific tires, Porsche can demonstrate that the handling, braking and stability control work properly and have been tested. If you put on a different tire and try to sue Porsche for a handling defect, you have a problem. Benjamin Choi likes to run with fat tires. Fine. It is his choice. Since he put them on, a loss of control due to aquaplaning is his problem and he can't find PAG responsible. Does his car have better handling in the dry? Probably - not that Porsche cares, they are off the hook for any handling defect. Jury - please allow me a correction. When it comes to dry handling on smooth pavement, nothing beats a big fat race slick. Of course it would be deadly in the rain but racers have spare wheels and rain tires for the purpose. Porsche has to assume that the majority of owners will drive their car in all weather conditions. The average guy cannot pull in for a 1 minute pit stop and fit rain specific tires after all. This forces them to compromise on tire width and tread patterns to have something which performs respectably under all conditions. Within those constraints, they come up with an intelligent compromise, then test it extensively under varied conditions. The result is the N spec tire. For those who commented on sidewall stiffness, you are correct. The sidewall of the tire affects how the car responds at initial turn-in as well as the slip angle of the tire. The PSM and Yaw Control systems in modern Porsches are calibrated to the response of the (you guessed it) N rated tires. N rated tires for a spefcific model will all have very similar tire slip angles, and PSM knows those slip angles. The N rated tires are guaranteed to perform. That being said, an equally good non N rated tire can be just as good but you won't know until AFTER you buy them. I hope this puts the matter to rest. benjamin and jury, please watch for a PM from me. Best,

Quotes source post: 5323283

For what it's worth - which is nothing, I guess - this could explain the mysterious vanishing of the N-spec from recent PS2s, in Canada at least. Anyway, thank you for taking the time to post this.

Quotes source post: 5323283

Uh, oh

One addition to my post above, I got three PM's asking why Mercedes (for example) does not spec tires "N" rated the way Porsche does. As far as I know, Mercedes carefully selects OEM tires and suggests that owners use only tires approved by MB. They need not go as far as Porsche because (in my opinion only - I speculate) the average person driving a Benz is unlikely to get anywhere near the limits of the car. Stability control on the Benz intervenes very early - no fun at all on my E 500 4-matic for example) whereas Porsche tolerates a good deal of slip (drift) and intervenes only when things get out of hand. This puts a lot more emphasis on carefully calibrating the relationship between tires and the ABS and PSM systems. This is only possible if the performance characteristics of the tires are known. In sum Porsche knows that owners of its vehicles are likely to drive in a more "spirited" fashion. Best,

Quotes source post: 5323283

Straight up and very well put Bob Enjoyed reading your post....guilty of enjoying the tire war as well When it comes to men and petroleum products, the gloves come off

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Why does this sound so, so wrong?!?!

Quotes source post: 5323502

If that's so wrong I don't want to be right

Quotes source post: 5323437

I agree, great post. As a corporation, Porsche should be OCD... but man we all know who else is OCD, but for reasons derived from something less corporate, more family.

I agree with the others.....very good post. Thanks for taking the time to write it.

what would be useful is those who have experience with non-nspecs and track, to post their impressions. what happened to the kinder, gentler Ben?

Quotes source post: 5324463

[Image-only post; no author-written text. Original image references:] http://www.fullboarsafety.com.au/products/images/Wk%20in%20Prog.jpg

Hmmm...what's that guy shoveling? Don't expect anyone to bend over even if kinder/gentler spots on a cheetah

Quotes source post: 5323283

Oh, I have no doubt that by Ben adding wider rear tires he has increased the level of grip in the rear, not to mention effectively widening the rear track of the car, which also reduces the level of grip lost due to weight transfer during cornering. So if one were to measure objectively, he could very well increase dry cornering speeds. However, there are also many subjective aspects of handling. Skidpad grip does not tell the whole story. What about the balance of the car toward under/oversteer and the way the car reacts to driver inputs of throttle, brakes and steering at this point? The NSX, or Lotus Elise is a wonderfully balanced car and they have achieved this without the need of fat tires. In fact, wide tires would be detrimental to throttle induced oversteer, because those cars are lacking in the torque dept, as is the 911 when compared to a Viper of Vette, where wide tires are the order of the day. Uh-oh, I'd better head back to my corner now. P.S. Excellent post.

Jury, the reason I'm confused by your reasoning is because Porsche themselves increased tire width of the car from the 265s on the 3.4 996 to the 285s on the 3.6 996 and the 295s on the 3.6 996 C4S. Clearly, the increased tire width in the rear offered some advantages for Porsche to change, right?

Quotes source post: 5325772

As the power went up, so did the rear tire width. This extra traction at the back helps tame oversteer. If the car understeers (skinny front tires, wide rear tires), then you just need to hit the brakes to get traction up front again. Fewer lawyers for Porsche to deal with. Cheers,

Quotes source post: 5326408

They also upsized not just the diameter, but increased the rear wheel/tire width on the 3.6 997 Carrera. Oh, but the dynamic balance is out of flux capacitor! Nooooos!

Quotes source post: 5326429

I'm only talking width. I don't care about diameter unless they need bigger wheels to fit around massive brakes. As for your flux capacitor comment....well....stow it before Bob sees you stirring the pot again.

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I'm talking both. Comment about Bob... I don't plan on staying on Bob's bad side (not that I really really care like I care about World Cup soccer or anything like that).

Quotes source post: 5326408

Agreed. I'm aware that the extra power might have required more traction. That was my point.

My point is, even with the same level of power, Porsche makes it available with the wider tread which brings me back to my original point all along... all of this is hairsplitting so long as you're not running bike tires or running 16" rears or KYJelly-spec tires, you're fine. Enjoy the drive. Just imagine the many others on Rennlist who run non-PS2 tires, but are perfectly happy with the performance of their 911 on their local runs to the grocery store or to the mountain valleys. Oh the horror.

Quotes source post: 5325772

The answer lies in your post. Going from the a 3.4 to a 3.6l also increased the amount of torque available, which gave them the ability to use wider tires in the rear. The increased grip would give the car better acceleration and with additional power, you could still induce throttle oversteer. Also in 2002 the chassis/suspension would have been retuned to take advantage of the wider tires. Are there any cases of Porsche offering wider rear tires alone as an option on the SAME car?

Quotes source post: 5326740

No, it is not hair-splitting. Changing the tire width will significantly affect handling. Reference? Which models are you talking about? List the FRT/Rear tire sizes available.

Quotes source post: 5321946

The only thing poppin' is that vein above your eye-lid when you realize how much you've been pwned. Space-cadet. I believe I've posted a photo in a thread titled "My official Hello." Knock yourself out with the search-function. Hey, just 'cause you're an attention-***** who can't accept a good old fashioned defeat, doesn't mean I can't have a little bit of fun at your expense. :P

Quotes source post: 5328236

People change the tires/wheels to improve the handling of their Porsche's. The stock set-up is fine but it undoubtably has built in compromises. For example; - Porsche builds more understeer in the cars than necessary to protect unexperience drivers. My opinion maybe, but it also seems to be the opinion of many others on this board as well as many automotive journalists. - Porsche undoubtably considers ride quality with standard tires configurations. - Porsche also seems to considers buyer preferences when selecting tires (look no further than the 19" tire option on 987's and 997's). - If the stock set-up is optimal for handling, why do racers usually change it? Travel through the paddock at any DE or Club Race and you will see many more non-stock solutions than stock. I use "N" spec tires on my cars on the street because because I think their are "some" benefits. But, I don't run the stock sizes on any of my Porsches (street or track). Additionally, at the track I use whatever R-compound I believe offers the best price/grip compromise. It works great for me! Your results and/or opinion on the matter certainly may vary.

Quotes source post: 5325140

Once he saw the big schtick coming at him, he cries uncle and relents. I'd give you a tissue if I could. Thx for pretty much admitting I'm right. As to this dude's other post, it's obvious this guy's read up on me as I have no idea where the hell he came from in the past (anonymous dude), doesn't like my level of confidence/lifestyle whatever, so being the kinder/gentler Ben, I will respect Bob's wishes and refrain from responding because as you can clearly read, this guy is thw weird guy you don't want to have over for a bbq/beers cuz he's downright vapid, ultra-p-car conservative, and chicks are scared of him cuz he just doesn't stop calling cuz he just doesn't get it . He is without fail the missionary man.

LoLlol Ahhh...thank goodness it's the gentle Ben. I might just kinda like him better....but not by much.

This is respecting the rule about "no personal attacks"?

Quotes source post: 5329733

Bob, the guy clearly responded after receiving our little message. Chronology. And yes, it was not a personal attack. It was an on-target assessment of the interaction.

Quotes source post: 5328834

Ray, all your points are accurate. Further, you qualify the benefits with the downsides. Porsche must certainly make compromises to performance to appeal to a wider range of buyers. My point was that Ben modified his car by adding wider rear tires for the "steam-roller" look. That INCREASES understeer, thus negatively affecting his handling.

Quotes source post: 5329135

When did I say you were right? Increasing the rear tire width on the C4S only makes it perform better than stock in a narrow range of scenarios where more rear tire grip is required. However, when you start understeering (which is how Porsches are inherently tuned), you have lost the ability to balance that with throttle oversteer because you just have too much rear grip! Hence, you've converted your car from mild understeer to heavy understeer. On a stock C4S, when the frt starts to push, the rear is also pretty close to the threshold. And this is ignoring what increasing the weight at the rear-most corner of the car will do to its handling. Hahah. I've been a member here since '04, so of course I've read your posts. Where do you get the idea that I don't like you? You can think of me as just like you - only with a higher IQ. Oh yeah, and someone who isn't ghetto when it comes to class, sophistication, and style. I see you have no comment on the pic I posted? Not quite the nerd you pictured? Hahaha. As for the "missionary man" quip, I'm afraid you're rather far off the mark with that one. I'm young, easy-on-the-eyes, and pretty darn entertaining. So, uhm, figure it out. P.S. Still waiting for that reference on where Porsche offers a wider rear tire package on the same car, Sparky.

Quotes source posts: 5330670, 5330670

This is indisputable. This is subjective. (Although I happen to share the view, but, again, it's subjective. A car that understeers is not 'bad' by definition. Within reason, it's more tame and predictable and, because corrections get made by lifting the throttle a bit rather than getting into it more, it's less performance oriented).

Quotes source post: 5328236

YES! At least in Germany for the 3.4l 996s you could. If you had selected one of the optional 18" wheels (as opposed to the stock 17" "Carrera" wheels), you could also order optional wider rear tires, which took you from 265s to 285s. I do not know if this same option was available in the US. Of course as most of you know, the 285 on an 18" wheel became standard on the '02-'04 3.6l 996s. Rob

Quotes source post: 5321705

I am just about to pull the trigger on a set of these. My current set of Pirelli PZero System rears have lasted about 7000 miles and look like slicks right now. I have decided it is more prudent to go with something with better wear characteristics and less traction (although the Sumitomo has a better grip rating than the Pirelli) for daily street use. I can then buy a set of Michelin PS2 Cups and a second set of wheels for track/autoX use. No compromises that way. And in the long run I figure I might even save a little money.

Quotes source post: 5330918

I absolutely love that I got you talking about your IQ, how you're not ghetto, how you're easy on the eyes on a damn car board. LOLLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL IQ, eh? Who got you to show us how you really feel about yourself? I got you. And just do us all a favor and post up the pic you mention. With some chicks preferred. And, again, it's clear that you're trying to state as fact something that you can't even begin to prove. Just like you, I can't provide scientific data because who has $1m to pull off something like this? What I do have is a countless number of Rennlisters and non-Rennlisters who have upgraded to 19" wheels that are setup with wider tires, who have lowered the car with PSS9s/KW3s and are perfectly happy with the upgrade and would never, ever look back. Why? Because the drive is that much better thus clearly justifying the $10K+ expenditure. Enjoy your floaty stock suspension with your regular wheels. We can all bust them out when we feel like... putting some winter tires on them. Continue to live in the dark. You're ignorant and tired (I've never read your posts until this thread Zzzzz).

Let

it

go.

+ 1,000,000,000

Ultimately, it seems like no one here can stand the thought of not having the last word.

I like cake.

Let dresler eat cake

Quotes source post: 5332182

What kind is your favorite?

Let me bring this thread back on topic. I do feel sorry for the person who reads this from a search. Anyone know if 295/30s fit in a 996 C2 NB lowered without rubbing? I have 285/30 ZR 18 N2 contis now but it is not available as a replacement.

Quotes source post: 5332377

Yes, they will fit. I have 295/30 - 18's on my car (11" wheels, GT3 offsets).

Quotes source post: 5332377

I have 295/30 on my NB 99 C2 and they don�t rub.

blueberry cheesecake!

Quotes source post: 5332493

I've got something that they can rub!

Quotes source post: 5332591

I got your rubbin' right here!

Quotes source post: 5332619

Anytime for you baby!

What are N spec tires?

Quotes source post: 5333077

Back things up a few hundred posts to page one. You will find the answer as well as some solid entertainment if you keep going +1 on cheese cake!!!

Quotes source post: 5331681

That's really rich, considering you're the Master Self-Fluffer on this board, not to mention a disruptive presence constantly drawing people into inane arguments. I guess that also makes you a chronic Master Baiter, so go right ahead and LOL-away. Your attempts to paint an image of me as an unimaginative nerd without a social life failed. Sorry, you're going to have to do better than 4th grade school-yard bully tactics. Looking for additional ammunition, huh? I like how I've got you licking your wounds and looking for retaliation. Do you need me to explain how to use the search-function, brainiac? I even pointed you to correct thread! You clearly lack the scientific credentials to fill a thimble, much less be able to interpret scientific data. Are you A-D-D on crack? Why do you continue to ignore the physics behind the concept that adding wider rear tires, ceteris paribus, will result in an increased tendency to understeer? OMG! A whole $10K expenditure? Oops! I forgot the (+). Hahaha. Blah! Blah! I love how you constantly resort to the bandwagon approach in supporting your arguments. Unfortunately, my technical explanation pwns you. I certainly will enjoy my stock suspension and regular wheels, Benjy. I sleep well knowing that I have not pImPed mah ride, deluded into the notion that I can out-engineer Porsche by making performance compromises to cosmetic mods negligible.

I am just going to pipe in here because what I have read is that your comments are just opinions and not necessarily from experience. I upgraded to PSS9s and GT3 sways from stock 2 months ago. I even got bigger tires on now compared to before. The result actually ended up with less creak and rattles than my previous stock set up. The tires, suspension and sways even made the car turn with a smaller radius. My dampning settings reflects a slightlt stiffer setting than stock because I wanted a crisper ride. I can also find a stock setting if I chose. How is having more choices bad?

Quotes source post: 5333340

This is getting tired as it's obvious to everyone here you're seriously taking all this personally. At ease, man. Chill for a bit. Don't come off any more weirder than you are right now. And consider renewing your Rennlist membership since you are spending a lot of time with us here thx to me. Everyone, just read my points and you'll see what I'm seeing. The 911 is wholly modifiable for the better. There is nothing special about the stock ride unless that's all you've got to go by, that such is all that's left on the table post-purchase. But fortunately, we have great vendors and minds spending R&D $s, talent and energy in enhancing what's been set as a standard by Porsche from the factory. Wonderful, but can be improved upon in not only looks, but in outright grip and handling (my setup for the street). Row, row, row your boat with the stock height shifter. Case in point that's clear as day unlike this pretend dance routine this dude's got with his 911.

Quotes source post: 5334555

Believe me, I'm not taking any of this personally. Just enjoy puncturing those with no justification behind their over-inflated egos (which includes you). This all started when you took offense at being labeled a poseur and have yet to admit that any of your cosmetic mods have any noticable performance downside, which you write-off as "hairsplitting." In one hilarious episode, you even go so far as suggesting that you managed to improve ride and handling and that you should be hired by Porsche. It is modifiable to be more in line with the owner's preferences. I would not say it is modified for the better. Laughable. Those who choose to keep their cars factory are doing so because they lack the funds to modify? Whatever helps you get through your day, Ben. Just out of curiosity, can you list mods you have done that are NOT cosmetic in nature? Your set up might look better to you, but it is not better than the stock set up for the street! It has an increased tendency to aquaplane, it has an increased tendency to understeer, it has a poorer ride, it will track poorer.... I have no idea what that means, but your doctor should check your dosage of haloperidol.

-My ego is well in check, I'm as humble as they come... -Definitely improved ride and handling with the Work wheels/PSS9s/PS2s -Never, ever do I assume Rennlisters who have stock cars stay stock because they lack funds; all this has to do with your own insecurities in running into someone like me who knows exactly what he wants and has done it -PSS9s, wheels (looks and better handling), everything else is pretty much stock, it's just that I know which things to mod to make it look like something huge as been done to the car, but really, very little - that's my skills right there: less is more -Hydroplaning? WAHAHAHAH weak. Again, my car handles better than your car. I drive well within the given road conditions and I drive my Jeep for wet weather anyways. Couldn't care less. Never felt any ounce of lift going through water in the 15K miles I've put on this car in the past year. Likely a lot more miles than you ever put on your car? -Again, weak. You bringing my doctor into this convo now? Keep reachin', bud. Keep reachin'.

Like listening to Chaz Michael Michaels and Jimmy MacElroy

This guy likes wearing suits off the rack because its better that way. The pattern makers know how to make clothes fit better than tailors.

Quotes source post: 5338685

Wow, you're right, I do like to buy suits and shirts off the rack. I've done both though, and off the rack suits me just fine because I don't have an oddly shaped/sized body and I believe you can still buy great, more consistent clothes off-the-rack.

Quotes source post: 5337804

So says the guy whose mug takes 90% of the pixelated area in his avatar. Your opinion. Mine differs. Quit weaseling. The least you could do is to stand by what you wrote previously or offer a retraction. It shows character. Believe me, nobody is thinking you were going for 'less is more' when they look at the steam-roller with the giant wing. I guess, you are admitting that you can't think of a single mod you have done which hasn't been cosmetic in nature? Yeah, my car's just under 20K miles now. I have experienced the rear tires hydroplane at hwy speeds when I hit standing water, I'm running 295s with plenty of thread and you're running 315. I can't imagine how you cannot notice this. Actually, haloperidol is usually prescribed by a psychiatrist. Hehe.

Quotes source post: 5340724

It's amazing what good taste gets ya. Less is more. That's my 911. Here's how: -Wheels -Stereo (I posted a thread about this to share with my Rennlisters) All the other stuff came with my car. So in total, three aftermarket pieces. Wheels/tires. Suspension. Wing. As easy as 1, 2, 3. I have the B&M SSK, definitely not cosmetic, but it came with the car so can't take credit, but I would've done it if it didn't come with the car. So much for stock being awesome (row row row your boat). And hmmmm all the other interior bits are... factory. Exhaust? PORSCHE sport exhaust. Brakes? Factory. Front lip? Factory. Any less than the above 3 mods... our cars would be... hear me out, playa... everyone else too... eerily... SIMILAR. Rennlist, we've made a discovery! See how it looks like I did a lot, but then I didn't? Yes, I make pimpin' look ez, beooootch. WHAHAH As for the hydroplaning, you keep insisting that I do when I don't. What more do you want me to say? You senile? Try flax seed oil. So c'mon, man. It's clear as day my style really tweaks you and I love it. As your boy Fiddy said, "if they hate, then let' em hate."

You know I saw the nicest C4S the other day. It was Basalt black, but the frt grilles were painted silver like the 40th anniversary. Those black grilles tend to get lost on a black car. The contrast was stunning.

Quotes source post: 5341388

Disagree. Plastic grills should not be highlighted. They should always be in matte black on the 911. Leave the cutesy grill treatments for the Ford pick-up trucks, the Escalades and rental Jaguars.

Frankly, are the grills even an options on anything by the C4S?

one arm flyrod's gone askew on tredel!

Quotes source post: 5343297

huh?

monty python.

Quotes source posts: 5341817, 5342041

If you can have a car that looks like a steamroller, others can get painted grilles. Turbo?

Quotes source post: 5344036

I don't know what steamrollers look like in Canada, but here's a USA steamroller: Just for comparison's sake, here's how my "steamroller": And this is what you like WHAHAAHAHAHAH: Call your optometrist, something's gone awry.

There's too much yellow going on there and it makes the car look washed out. And as I pointed out, silver grilles on a black car adds contrast, and carries the silver theme from the headlights. If I ever run into that C4S again, I'll snap a photo. Don't try to bite my style, I'm a style icon, baby! P.S. Is your spoiler mod for performance, for looks or both? Not a criticism per se, just wondering what your thoughts are.

Quotes source post: 5344561

Definitely post the photo. Tell the guy you consider yourself the style icon and I'm sure the driver will be more accepting... The spoiler is for looks, though I think the 996 C4S is one of the rare exceptions where sans wing, it still looks damn good. It may well have the best looking **** end in the water-cooled universe. My Misha GTM wing is on there to match the front aero lip to balance out the front to the back.

the yellow car is such a plastic surgery gone bad. Is this a MK1 aero with a turbo front conversion?

Quotes source post: 5345493

Yes, it is. Frankenstien 911. Dipped in all gold. Daytons.