how easy is it to spin?

just got a 996 targa 2002 without psm for my wife. She is reasonably cautious but I am still a little concerned about the possibilty of her lifting off the throttle mid turn in the rain and doing the 911 thing with the front at the back and the back at the front. I understand the handling on the 996 is much improved over previous models but the engine is still at the back after all. Just how likely is a loss of control at normal brisk road speeds

I've been trying to get the rear unstuck on my "new to me" 2002 Carrera 2 for about 3 months now and even in the rain I have had only one or two inclinations of oversteer. Granted I drove a 911 for ten years so I'm approaching it somewhat cautiously, but I've both lifted and given extra throttle,and some opposite lock, in the rain....and it ain't easy to get the back unstuck. Unless wifey hauls into a decreasing radius turn at insane overspeed and lifts and brakes, in the rain...while drunk, I think she'll be ok. Now a *real* 911 on the other hand, well that's another story.

Thats pretty reassuring. In winter we get a lot of rain for three or four months or so - I live in New Zealand - so I am concerned about a spin in the wet. What are the best tyres for wet weather. We never get ice or snow so I don't have to worry about that.

I just did a spinner recently. I'm new to the P-car and it really caught me off gaurd. I've driven rear wheel front and mid engines and this 996 is a totally different beast. Rainy night, just hailed a few hours earlier so road probably quite cold. Summer tires obviously. I was going into a right hand slow corner (street ends and goes 90 degrees joining another street), about 20kms is the posted limit - not going fast. Gave a little gas coming out of the corner as I normally do to accelerate out of corner, thought I was straight and eased off so I wouldn't pick up so much speed and the back came around, tried to correct but nope, no grip. Honestly going about 20kms hitting maybe 30kms coming out of corner. But, probably on and off the gas unsettled the car too much (I do this all the time in my other cars without any slips). Getting new tires now - people have said the tires were quite old, still tread but rubber isn't good after something like 5 years. Talked a lot to different people about this and they all said take the driver's ed as the P-car is something different to drive. I know what they mean now and will be doing driver's ed soon (can't this summer unfortunately, but will next summer). I wish I had experienced the off gas oversteer in a controlled situation before that as I would have expected it.

exactly what I am afraid of!

My P car had PSM and it is almost impossible to slide the rear. However, when I did the PDE we ran in a tight radius circle (approx 30 foot radius) with PSM off and a wet road surface just to experience the over steer condition and its recovery. It was quite easy to slide the back out when hitting the accelerator.

I have gone out to open lots in the rain with the only intent is slide the rear so I know what it would feel like when it happens. Nothing. Nada. This car won't let go. I turn off the PSM and the front will push but the back won't come out. I go around turns and intentionally stab the gas in the apex of the turn to help it step out. Still nothing. This is the first car that I have been in that wasn't an AWD that refuses to spin the tires. It isn't that I am not trying either. I love tire spin but it just isn't happening.

What FlashFlash describes is not the classic 911 oversteer. Quite suspicious that it happened when the car was close to straight after leaving a corner. Unless the throttle action was really violent it sounds like tire issues to me.

I think folks are underestimating the possibility of spin. I did the Porsche Driving Expereince like Mike Z and it was very clear how easy it is to get loose in a tight turn - we did with and without PSM and the difference was significant. So much so that I made sure that PSM was included in the car I bought (I did the course before purchase). Not sure where you are located (I know they do it at Road Atlanta), but perhaps a PDE for her as a gift might be money well spent.

FYI, they now have a woman driver specific version: http://www.porschedriving.com/womensonly.htm

Bucket, I totally agree with you on the gift idea. I would also add that for those who do not track their car, learning what the limits of the P car are is mandatory. The over steer we induced at PDE was done in a low gear (2nd I believe) and punching the accelerator on the circle. The back came out very easily. I attended PDE to learn what my P car and myself can handle. I will never regret the time spent.

What kind of vehicle experience does your wife have? I went from a Nissan 350Z to a 2002 C2 (non PSM). On the public streets, well within the limits, both are great handling cars. But, on the track at the limit, the Porsche is much more twitchy (I'm using different pressures though 40F/42R). Without the experience of the 350Z (290HP RWD), it would be scary. How often do you check tire pressures? With the stock tire pressures of ~35F and ~45R Porsche seems to have induced a lot more understeer into the car at the limits. Changes (intentional or unintentional) to those pressures can change the handling a LOT. It doesn't sound like your wife will drive at the limit on a regular basis, but in emergency situations, it's always good to know what your car can do. As suggested by others, treat her to a performance driving school asap; it's saved my butt a few times.

Do you have PSM?

i had one spin last year. 90 degree, on a high way exit, with kid in the car! good thing is no one is following me! any way, you need to be careful, esp. when it's rainning. i don't have PSM,

It is not at all "easy" to spin these cars. In fact they have far more cornering traction than the average family car or SUV. However, you and your wife need to remember that the average family car does not have 320hp on tap (to the rear wheels) and this is what presents a problem for some. The 911 needs to be driven with "respect". Stab the throttle mid corner in a Ford Taurus in the wet and you will just induce some understeer. Pull the same move in a 911 and you've got oversteer. (In my experience the 996 is not snapish in it's behavior. If you make the rear step out it is very controllable.) Drive it smoothly with respect and keep it well within its considerable limits and you will never have a problem. Drive it carelessly and it can bite you. I drive my 996 through the Chicago weather year round and the car performs very well in snow (with snow tires) and rain (with summer tires).

I honestly fail to see how "anyone' driving responsibly on the street is going to spin this or any car! Now if you are in the rain, driving on either bald rear tires or completely hard as rocks tires and you turn in too much and give it too much gas then yes of course. (insert any rear drive car for that matter) On the track you have to be already at the limit of traction (ie going fast around a corner) and also be pretty ham fisted with the car to get the rear end to step out. It isn't going to happen under power in the dry, I try very hard too sometimes and can hardly get it to wiggle. However, if you don't follow the slow in fast out approach and end up coming into a corner too fast, and turn in too early for the apex and then lift abruptly when you think you are about to run out of road then yes, that is the perfect recipe. CHeers! -Paul

For a moment I thought that the training facilities would be in the "kitchen"...the best thing for women to ride is a dough mixer... Now (more) seriously: kiwin - IMHO the best thing you can do to minimize the risks of a spin is GREAT TIRES IN GOOD CONDITION. Always provide her a good ones. Never spare money on tires. I drove several times my GT3 at rain with bad tires and...it was like stepping eggs.

well said!!! it is all depend on where you coming from - if you had old 911 before then 996 is much forgiving in corner, but if you are from BMW...good luck... Get a set good winter tires. I play the 180 stunt last winter on highway and scared the s#*t out off me... because I don't have snow tires... No PSM and shop for winter set now.

I agree. I would add that PSM is a great system to have for anyone who lacks driving confidence/skill with a high powered sports car. It is in no way "necessary" for these cars, but it could certainly provide an extra safty net to save a careless driver IMHO.

I dont think its "easy" to spin. Its not like driving a drag car on an ice pond. My wife has driven my 9 many times and never has a problem. If she has a nervous leg twitch and cant resist punching it, then there might be an issue, but otherwise unless you try youre not spinning a donut in the intersection....

it's pretty easy

Its pretty easy if you are TRYING to spin it. But if you drive like you would drive any car its not.

Ben, sounds like spinning the C4S it's old hat for you. By my count you have had the car for three months. How many spins have you had so far? After all since it is "pretty easy" I assume this must happen to you on a regular basis, right?? FWIW, I have never spun either of my cars on the street and my Boxster does not have PSM.

Well said Ray, exactly the point I was trying to make......

Hi guys First of all thanks for the reply - all very helpfull. The car is a 2002 996 targa and unfortunately does not have psm. Psm was definitley on the list but the dealer was desperate to get rid of the car and folded like a cheap tent on the price so i got $20k off with all the full warranties etc. I also got as part of the deal a set of tyres at cost so I will be replacing the tyres soon. The car has michelin ps2's at the moment. I am thinking of replacing either with the same or with conti's. She is a carefull and competent driver and is only too aware of the power sitting behind her. She calls it the genocide in the back of her *** engined **** jellymould. hmmm. Porsche driving experience is definitely on the calendar for both of us but is not available until october. I am looking for a large parking lot to use until then but they are bieng filled with kerbs specifiaclly to stop young hoons from using them for exactly what I have in mind. Thanks for al you help nigel 911 targa 2002 944 na 1983 A4 quattro 3.0 2002

Sounds like she will have no problems.

Try going to an autocross to see how the car handles at it's limits. I had my 996 for just a week when I took it to an autocross event just to find the limits. After my second run, I got the back end a little loose and it felt like it was going to come around but I gave it a little "more" gas and it hooked right up. On a 5th "fun run" I was able to completly loose it and loop the car. I am really amazed at how stable these cars are. Like others have said, it seems like you would really have to try to get the back end loose on the streets.

She sounds like she's fully aware of what the car can do - shouldn't be a problem. The only time I've spun was on the track, while thinking about the next corner but one, instead of the corner I was in - except for this kind of severe brain-fade at high speeds, it's pretty hard to spin. (Exception: summer tyres on a cold morning)

I guess what I am worried about is not throttle on oversteer but lift off oversteer in an unplanned situation in the rain, perhaps downhill on a twisty road. This is not something I worry about on the 944 so really the question is that is the 911 more likely to spin than the 944 in this situation just because the largest mass is aft of the rear axle.

As Paul said, these cars by nature have a lot of grip accelerating out of the corners in the dry due to the cars weight distribution. You can be fairly ham fisted and barely get the rear to wiggle on corner exit. That being said you do have to be careful of mid corner corrections as they can induce over steer but even that is not too much of an issue in a stock 996 with stock suspension is set up to under steer. I drove a 02 with X71 suspension on an autocross and even trail braking his car it would not over steer. As mentioned before, learn the limit of these cars at a safe environment like a DE or autocross. You will find these cars forgiving for the novice and progressively more rewarding as your experience increases. With the 911, the more gentle/smooth your inputs the faster the car is. Hope this helps, PS- Ben, what where you doing to spin a C4S?

she shouldnt have any problems (she sounds like she's into the 911 thing, which helps), she just needs to be more attentive in foul weather... as with all of us... and tell her to enjoy. I wish my wife drove 911's, she rather drive honda's

- I don't have PSM It was on my wish list as well as a C4 instead of a C2 (drive an Audi as well, so I know the AWD is great for this rainy weather) but this deal came up so I went for it. All in all, I think my spin situation was more of a tire issue (going on the throttle and off didn't help a lot either). The previous owner had the tires on the car for quite some time and didn't drive that much so it had a lot of tread - appeared to be OK but apparently not. I'm getting new RE050A PP's - should be ready for pickup today or tomorrow and the car will be a different experience for me to drive again.

The 996 (and even the 993) are not like the older cars in this respect. They are much less sensitive to throttle lift oversteer than the earlier 911's. The handling on 996's is pretty bullitproof. They don't have any real nasty flaws. Both 996's and 944's will spin. But you have to work at it to make it happen.

In general agreement with some of the previous posts, a good portion of the car's sensitivity is related to the abruptness of on/off throttle as well as steering inputs. Smoothness is almost always faster--but may be less "exciting" or theatrical.

I have a Tip and I have spun my car out a few times along with plenty of oversteer situations. I could only imagine a manual that is more direct when you lift the throttle, I am sure the count would be higher. But as far as worrying about losing it on a normal curve, probably never happen, the rear is really planted IMO.

My best friend's uncle's cousin's friend's brother's son's mother's brother's friend got his C2 to spin out once. But only by pushing it to it's limit on a circular descending highway on ramp trying to drift on the baldest of tires did that happen. In other words, you would have to try really hard to spin it out.

Oh my overkill, I spun out once, but it might be because I turned the wheel hard to the left and popped the clutch at 7000 rpm's......

I have PSM and haven't had the car come close to sliding - ever. No track time though so I've never pushed the car past that 90% limit.