Does magnetic particles in the filter means IMF failure

Guys it's been a long time since I've been here. I'm sure everyone is sick of IMF failure threads. Give some slack to this guy who has been away for a long time but was an active participant on those days (RMS was the big deal then). Anyhow....took my 2003 996 C4S which I've had from new with less than 30k miles (quite a bit of it on the track, so not necessarily a garage queen). They are saying they found a lot of metal particles in the filter and they are magnetic, therefore they've diagnosed it as a failing IMF. Is this true? They will replace the clutch when they are there and possibly the RMS if it's the older design. I know I had that replaced a few years ago to the new design, but don't know whether there were other version. Anyhow for all of this it is $3,500 here in Dayton, Ohio. I am wondering whether the magnetic metals I the filter means impending IMF failure? Thanks!

I sure wouldn't risk it and you might even need to have your clutch replaced anyways so replace the ims for piece of mind.

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Ok thanks. Do I have to look out for anything? Anything they need to do to minimize repeat failure? P.S: Im fine if someone points to a thread or article on everything to do about 996 IMF...I don't mind reading.

Speaking from personal experience, I can say that IMS worries will result in many sleepless nights and make you crazy every time you imagine the engine makes a suspicious sound. Go for an IMS upgrade and be done with it. $2k later, all is well(-ish). Wor

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Make sure the mechanic has installed an ims bearing before and it will be up to you which is bearing you choose you have some options there. I wouldn't worry too much about the damage that metal particles have caused in the oil it is probably minimal.

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Then do a search & read! You need to see how much metal is in the filter & in the oil sump. Remove the oil sump pan & check for metal. Stick your finger into the hole where the oil filter mounts & check for metal, if any is there you need a new engine & different shop.

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If it's new [metal in the filter], and I'm guessing it's new, it means that something has failed or has started to fail and it needs to be addressed right now.

Ok thanks....They are using LN engineering IMS

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Wow! r u serious...so the engine could already be gone without it being obvious...in which case I could replace the IMS and the engine could still blow?

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It really depends on how much of that junk got past the filter and for how long. IMO Had one of the owners at my shop tell me his 996 did the same thing. Drove it one summer, put it away for the winter, and had a bunch of metal or sheen in the filter when he went to change it that spring which was when he wanted to change the IMS anyway. He didn't sound overly concerned about it as the condition wasn't there for the last change, and the bearing didn't totally fall apart although he said it was bad. I personally wouldn't drive it or start it if I didn't have to at this point.

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You put the scare in me and I called the shop. They are saying there's no chance for the engine to be damaged. Apparantly it's the outer casing and not the ball bearing that shaves off metal and shows up in the filter. So, they are saying it's just very small metal particles form the outer casing and there's no damage to the engine.

I realize the M96 is expensive to fix, but expecting the International Monetary Fund to fail because of one bad oil change might be overreacting... heh. IMF. Heh. Sanjeevan, do you have a photo of what the shop is describing? It is hard to imagine that you can make an informed decision on how to proceed when you're working from a sketchy description like "a lot of particles." The "outer casing" of the bearing does not move - any metal being shed is the result of the inside of the bearing and/or the ***** flaking apart. Since the OEM bearing is sealed, the appearance of bearing material also means that the seal has been compromised, so at least some of the bearing material is being carried throughout the engine. If there really is "a lot" of metal floating around in your engine, slapping a new bearing on the intermediate shaft won't change that reality. However, some 996 owners see two tiny flecks of silver on the filter element and freak out. Without objective information on how much metal was seen and the condition of the bearing when it is removed, it's impossible to tell if your car needs more work or if it's ready to run 50K more miles... I don't think you need to freak out, but I do think you should get some additional information, including a visual inspection of the metal that was found and a look at the sump plate, before you drop $3,500. I hate burning money, so I'd far rather pay the extra $100 in labor to drop and inspect the sump plate before spending $3,500 on repairs.

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I went to the shop, they had removed the filter and spread it out. With a flash light I could tell there were multiple tiny metal specks (less than 1mm). I would say may be at least one in each fold, so not like the filter was filled with it. They were like shiny dots. Anyhow, I told then to go ahead with it. It is $2750, plus $750 for the clutch assembly as needed. What will the sump plate tell me that is more definitive? Ah! it looks like there will be more particles there. It looks like checking the sump plate will be a different procedure all together with additional money, I might as well just get it changed.

That's a good sign - at least it's a small amount of material. If they do pull the sump plate, be sure there is no debris in the oil pick-up tube. Sometimes, sealant and other crap can gum up the pickup. If you are proceeding with the IMSB retrofit, please take a few steps to try to reduce the amount of material still circulating in your engine: * Add a magnetic drain plug. * Add a spin-on filter adapter, and slap a filtermag on your new filter. * More frequent oil change(s) after the retrofit I'd install the spin-on adapter, filtermag and magnetic plug NOW to reduce the amount of ferrous material from recirculating throughout the engine. The spin-on filter adapter, in addition to allowing you to use standard filters compatible with a filtermag, will reduce the chance of particulate-laden oil bypassing filtration. Good luck - keep us posted on how things go. Once you have the old bearing in hand, let us know how it feels/looks... It's good to hear that your filter did not look like this:

I was thinking the same thing. But, seriously, if you don't properly qualify that engine for IMSB retrofit, you may have wasted your money. Read JR's many posts about this.

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+1 Sent from my iPad using Rennlist

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How do I properly qualify? Look at the sump plate for more debris? Who is JR?

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You ask the shop that's doing the work...

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Just out of curiosity, if the shop "can" qualify the motor shouldn't they take it upon themselves to tell the customer, instead of just installing everything knowing the motor is shot?

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This is why you have to decide if you're going to trust the shop you take it to or trust a bunch of random people with all kinds of personal interests on the internet.

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So "properly qualify that engine fro IMSB retrofit" means I am checking to see whether the motor is still good? I thought it meant to makes sure there is an IMS failure before replacing it? The shop says even before opening it up, my engine is definitely fine. Is there no way they can say that? Do they have to take the engine apart? or is it something they will know as they replace the IMS

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Then the engine is fine. Unless you don't trust the shop, but why take the car there in the first place if you didn't trust them and if they weren't good?

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JR: Jake Raby or Flat6Innnovations on Rennlist. He is a well known and highly respected engine builder. The qualification process is a methodical checking of various things of the engine to determine how far and how much of the metal debris have travelled. But that's when the bearing has failed. You'll finds threads about that I'm sure. There are a lot of Indy shops that don't do this. They just do a wishy washy job and call it the day. Quick cash.

Ok, as I saw just a few shaving much smaller than the size of glitter and as the shop is saying for sure my engine is fine, I'll go with the replacement. I will call them and inquire about the Magnetic drain plug. I assume it will clear up any remaining "glitter". What will the Spin on filter adapter and filter mag do? Are these two separate things in addition to the magnetic drain plug?

You might have a similar issue to what I had during my first oil change, paranoia. This is how I got my avatar picture! This thread would probably be helpful to you. https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...in-filter.html Almost everything was non-metallic.

The original Porsche designed filter housing has the oil bypass valve at the bottom of the housing. This can allow metallic grit, that has settled to the bottom, to bypass the filter under some conditions. IE: First start on a cold winter morning = thick oil/cold start/high rpm. LNE has designed a "spin on" filter console that does not allow this to happen. http://lnengineering.com/products/ot...r-adapter.html

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I had some free time to GOOGLE so: http://lnengineering.com/spin-on-oil...ayman-911.html http://lnengineering.com/filtermag-s...r-adapter.html

Speaking of bypass, here is a good forum thread about the subject. http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...&Number=309756 IMO the filter is there to try and catch particles and "filter" the oil. It's not there to catch everything and save the engine. I'm fine with it bypassing (although I'd like to have a light or something when it does) because then I know the engine is getting oil and the filter will catch the junk later when the oil circulates around again. I'm a bit leery of deleting the bypass as in cold weather and cold starts I'm using it quite a bit. Just my opinion, and what I feel comfortable with. Magnets are a good thing, could even fit something to the plastic filter body with epoxy or some other stuff. But again, they are there to help clean the oil and not to totally eliminate any issues that are floating around. fwiw there are many old motorcycles still running around today that don't have a true oil filter. They only have pickup screens and oil changes, which works fine other than there is a little more wear on parts than with a filter. Also fwiw I blew up my motorcycle engine pretty good, cracked a piston and later had flames shooting out of a headgasket (lucky it didn't start on fire). Had a lot of junk on the sump, or maybe not a lot but a bit, and the rest of the components were fine for being 40-50 years old. I know these engines are different but it's not like you see some particles and all of a sudden the whole thing is junk. Now, the level of particles seen may or may not warrent further checking, but that's why you bring these to a good shop that you trust.

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My filter looked kinda like yours. I don't know what to think. But I disagree with the one poster who posted a filter of a car that had blown its IMS and said that's when we need to worry. I have a feeling I could be replacing it for no good reason. However, the shop says they confirmed most of it to be metallic. However, it sounds like the LN IMS on 03 models seems to be 100% reliable, so might as well do it.

This is one of the most ignorant things a shop could say. You really need to read all JR has to say about the issue of qualifying an engine prior to IMSB retrofit. Especially if you saw the metal sheen and magnetic particles.

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This keeps getting said but I never saw any pressure relief in my Boxster's filter housing. My tech sources tell me the pressure relief's in the pump and bypasses pressure back to the low pressure side of the pump. FWIW, even the oil diagrams show the pressure relief is in the pump area.

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Thank you very much. So, if I feel comfortable only with the " Magnetic drain plug", it sounds like I could just do that, right?...just to be sure.

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It's a level of risk vs low hanging fruit. For those of us with manuals, and/or buying a car with unknown clutch wear, it may not be a bad idea to swap out the IMS and see what condition the clutch is in. Although on some models it's rare that one fails, but it can happen. Plus, even though I said what I did above in another post, it is a better idea to replace wear items before they put junk in the oil...

As far as the shop, well it's the first time I am taking it to them. This is an independent shop as was the one I was using before. Recently an acquaintance of mine was impressed with the new shop as they were able to fix some electrical issues with a very old 911 that most other shops couldn't. I guess I haven't forgiven the first shop for scratching the leather on my then brand new car when they installed the roll bar and refused to accept it. So, it is a new shop. So other than the one solid recommendation I don't have much to evaluate it by....but the mechanic who diagnosed the problem just works there, not the owner. The frist shop was owned by the mechanic and just one other helper (who scratched the leather)

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I will, thanks

Rubik, this statement is not correct. JR qualifies every engine before retrofit. Regardless if the bearing has failed or not.

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I've tried a few search term and I can't seem to find JR's main post on IMS...can someone post a link, thanks!

Definitely pull the sump plate. If no metal is found in there than you are lucky and everything is great. If there is metal in there than there might be damage already done to the bearings etc in the motor. Only someone with more knowledge than me should advise you what to do if there is metal in the sump.

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KK, I do agree that JR does qualify every engine before IMS retrofit, but then I'm sure he charges JR $$$ for it too. However, the general consensus is that if your filter is clean and there is no sign or symptom of an IMS failure - meaning you are doing it preemptively and not reactive to something that you've noticed, then you're good to go. At least that's what my common sense tells me.

You posted something about common sense in an IMSB thread?? Just kidding, I see your point about JR.

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You really should do a whole lot of reading on this forum before any more posting!

Ok. I am going to give you the definitive answer to the situation. What makes me qualified to do this. Well, I own a 996 and visit a lot of forums. But more importantly I had a failed IMS in a perfectly fine running engine. There was metal all over the engine. Due to financial reasons I didn't go for a rebuild, against the shops recommendation, and just got the magnetic drain plug and LN spin on filter adapter. Several thousand miles later and many oil changes let I may have had more metal shavings show up. Everybody freaked out and made me paranoid like my engine was going to explode. So I bit the bullet and paid for a rebuild ( I know refresh) and guess what. Inside of engine was pristine So replace the IMS. Drop the pan and clean it. Put in a magnetic drain plug and spin on filter. And then never think about it again.

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I have to agree with that statement. I found no evidence that there any pressure relief other than the common spring/plunger found on the oil pump housing.

The simple truth is many engines have failed and many have not and there is no way of knowing what category you will fall in. If you have metal in your filter it is a fact that something is failing already.

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That is not correct. At the inside bottom of the filter housing, there's a ~1/2" circular metal disc, which is the spring loaded bypass valve to avoid the filter from being crushed in case it's clogged. You can use pliers to grab the disc and pull straight up to feel the spring. Of course there's also the spring/plunger pressure relief on the oil pump itself.

You can see the filter housing bypass valve at the bottom of the canister in post #78 here if you look carefully. https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...l#post11968464

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People need to do a lot more reading about things on other forums...

Here's a better photo of the bypass valve in the filter canister. http://personalizedautohaus.blogspot...d-porsche.html

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To clarify: Every vehicle that we accept for a potential IMS Retrofit procedure does see a full evaluation and "qualification" process. We do NOT charge for this, as it is to protect our reputation as well as the owner's Interest in the car. When qualifying an engine we spend 1/2 of the first day assuming that the engine has an issue, and it just has to be found. I go about this very objectively and due to this 20% of the preventative candidates that we see are turned down for a retrofit procedure, because the qualification inspection uncovers some deficiency. These issues are generally symptomless. Just because a job is being done preventatively doesn't mean the engine is healthy enough to have an IMSB retrofit process, and spend the money on it. We go for maximum return on investment, which is why I receive IMS Retrofit vehicles from all over North America. If the year stays booked like it has the first half of 2015, we Wil surpass the 500 mark for IMS Retrofit procedures around October of this year. Out of those 500 we are batting a 100% effectiveness rating, having never had a retrofitted customers engine fail after the procedure. That's more than 3X more installs than any other single facility in the world.

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Take the man's word for it and go with one of his certified installers. I had a different opinion about this when I first joined RL due to some of the chatter on these threads, but have since determined that he is a very honest individual and I would not doubt his word in any way. Some of the posters on these groups seems to suggest Jake tries to scare people but this is not the case, in my opinion. I have yet to go through any IMSB replacement since I am in warranty but I would def go through his network of certified installers to pre-qualify and install the LN bearing when the time came. Thanks for all of the time you've put in here Jake. Time will always show the true character of men.. +1 for this guy! Sent from my iPad using Rennlist

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Thanks for chiming in Jake. I didn't know that the qualification process was pro bono. That's further proof to this community that you're the man. If I was in this situation and was close to you, you'd be first on the list.

I feel I am the LUCKY one. I shipped my car to Jakes shop all the way from Las Vegas. They were in contact with me almost daily. I was initially going to do more than was necessary but Jake told me it was not necessary so I actually spent less money than I was prepared to spend. I talked to Jake myself and feel he is a one of a kind person, very honest and very knowledgeable. My car runs like new and I know if it does ever have a problem it won't be the IMSB. If you are like me and can't really enjoy the car unless you figure you have done all you can to keep the odds in your favor then you should get the car properly pre qualified and have the bearing replaced. If you're not like me you probably can live just fine with the fact that most of the cars NEVER have any problem and you'll enjoy the car as much as me without spending any money. In any case I think we should all be thankful that Jake still posts here and offers his knowledge for free to those of us that need it. I get pissed off at some for seeming to be angry that he might get a customer once in a while and make out financially. Many of us support overpriced medium skilled dealers or indies who do nothing for us for free. I am not implying that all are like that but some are.

If you are using a "preferred" installer of LN's bearings, they have promised to follow certain pre-installation qualification procedures. I understand JR uses some additional procedures that aren't available yet due to patent issues with the tooling. Once you have decided on LN as the supplier, then you have to start asking your mechanic which Flat6/LN bearing is going to be used. There can be 2 or 3 LN supplied possibilities and their prices vary. Ways of you qualifying the shop are to ask; - how many replacements using the bearing they suggest they have done. - what tool kit and instructions are they using. - are they a preferred supplier (you can check on LN's web site at http://imsretrofit.com/preferred-installers/ ). Some background on the IMS itself and the kits available from LN may be found at http://imsretrofit.com/ims-101/ Good luck.

What's everyone's opinion on IMS solution from LN engineering over the retrofit

This should be good. This statistic is incredible and is another reason why any Porsche owner would be foolish to dismiss any advice or opinion JR has on anything engine related. I personally find it mind boggling that some forum members continue to argue or disagree with him about subjects from oil selection to track prep to IMSB issues. His advice and opinions are priceless yet free to those who choose to listen. Thanks again Jake!

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Don't be confused, all LN/ Flat 6 IMS products are forms of IMS Retrofit. The IMS Solution is also a form of Retrofit, it just happens to be the only fully patented product on the market. It's also the one that removes 11 wear components from the equation. This week I did a really crazy test with an IMS Solution, that defied everything I have ever thought about in the past. I video documented it as well. ill share it when I need to.

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Ah! You keep doing this, JR. You are incorrigible, mon ami!

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Ran it without oil at high rpm's for a determined amount of time? We need a Castrol type challenge...

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Thanks...how much more does 'solution' cost in terms of parts and is it a much longer process labor wise?

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How about 37 miles up a mountain, and back with no oil line attached? I thought it would fail in about 5-7 minutes, but it NEVER failed. I pulled the whole thing back apart to inspect and the DLC coating was compromised, but that was it. I don't want to post any of it until I can get a couple of RL member to be here through the entire installation, then drive it back up the mountain chasing the car with my tow truck with a dash cam installed. We'll run it till it does fail, load it on the truck, take it home and pull it apart. It never should have done what it did, and unfortunately I wasn't ready to collect all the info. I do have a video standing under the car with the engine at 6K RPM and no oil line attached to the IMS Solution. The Solution should cost at least 1K more than any other technology just for the part, and a Certified Installer should be the only one trusted with the job. Thats different than a Preferred Installer. You can always ship it to us :-0

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No skin in the game and I really don't care either way, but, IMO. Most shops will only really suggest replacing the bearing, and it seems that most will do that with a LN, but either way the normal route seems to be the bearing. The soultion is what they (porsche) should have done from the get-go, or something like that but for whatever reason or another they decided against it. Going this route would pretty much take any worry out of it - unless you ran out of oil pressure, in which case you have bigger problems - and I'd be willing to guess the soultion would hold up better for tracked cars. If this were a engine build, where a person would be upgrading everything, then I'd think the soultion would be the way to go. If it's just a normal daily driver or weekend car then I think you're putting way too much thought into this.

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Jake, don't you mean a "hill". I didn't realize you had mountains in GA. Regardless that is pretty impressive. Was the solution drenched in DT40 before you removed the oil line(in other words, this was previously submerged in some kind of oil)? Did you just stop at 37 miles and could it gone longer with no other damage? Any observation in abnormal noise, temperature, oil pressure readings? Is that motor still being used?

In response to the question above: I did the LN IMS refit - but just the bearing, not the whole recirculating-oil-bath-whatever setup. The shop that did the work has installed quite a few. So far so good. There were no impending doom precursors - I just wanted to be a bit proactive.

The "hills" in Jake's neck of the woods are amazing. Some of the best driving I've ever seen. One is even called Blood Mountain, hmmm I wonder why? Often there is this odd sensation when you're up the moutain but down a small ridge at the same time.

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I know this first hand as I picked up my car from GA and had the pleasure to drive it home. I was a little chicken though and played it safe by not going over 90 in the rain around the winding roads.

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The engine is still being driven, no adverse issues at all. The "test" solution (which was an off the shelf unit) has been removed and replaced with another Solution while we evaluate this whole thing. Yes, I do have video proof of this. We were chasing the test vehicle with the rollback in case it did fail, but I made it across the mountain, and back across it again, then pulled the car in the shop and held it at 6K RPM for a video op. The engine, or technology never failed, but this is so unbelievable that I need verifiers present for the whole thing next time. The parts did have wear, but nothing significant enough to catch a nail on. So much for the copy cat clowns that claim the Solution will fail immediately if the engine loses oil pressure delivery. It never should have performed like this. I was expecting to waste the test engine to prove how long it would go without oil feed, and I am kind of disappointed that I didn't get to see something fail. My shop is at 1300', the "mountain" is 3,500' and has a 7" grade up most of it. Bigger mountains may have higher elevation, but few are more steeply inclined. Here's the Solution flange, remember that this had ZERO pressure fed oil delivered to it for 37 miles and saw 7K RPM for a good period of time. It has only partially worn through the DLC coating. No wear of the parent material exists thats measurable or visual.

How much oil did the engine lose in this trial? These are impressive results nonetheless!

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Just so we're clear, was the oil line completely removed, blocked, or what? You never answered whether the bearing previously was submerged in oil before and what type? What was the outside ambient temp? Also can you even record any deviation with a micrometer in anyway on the wear spots?

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Less than one 1/2 shot glass full. The loss was so little that it was almost immeasurable. This is due to the AOS placing a vacuum on the engine, it was actually pulling vacuum into the flange from outside the engine! The oil line was not attached to the SPOFA or the IMS Solution flange for the test. The video I have shows the engine running and barely leaking any oil, even at 6K RPM.

I wished you brought a infrared thermometer to see what the temps were in and around the flange area, right after the 6k run. I'd be curious to see how little or lot heat build up there was.

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Next time the data logger will be on it with several sensors in place. I literally disconnected the hose and expected it to drive 1 mile or less, and fail. For that reason alone I was not set up to do more than see how long it took to die. Waiting on oil analysis and particulate count for even more data. What this further proved isn't what I was looking for.......that fed with clean oil the IMS Solution will not wear out.

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On the flipside, it would be interesting to take the dirtiest and oldest dino oil that has had a oil analysis sample to confirm low TBN levels and run it with that and then take it apart and analyze it.

If you ever need an assistant miscreant to break **** on Raby Mountain, I'm your man. Someday I aspire to become Chief Mayhemist - but I realize this is a lofty ambition.