PZeros in 18 degree weather-- no problem

just wanted to post my thoughts on this often-bandied subject. i've been driving my summer 18" PZero's here in the northeast in 18 degree weather (dry, clean roads), and although care must be taken before they warm up, they are perfectly fine once they do. i'd say they're pretty much the same as my PZero M&S set on my other car-- at least probably up to 7/10 or so (although i haven't pushed either that far in this weather). after they're warmed up, i can't kick the tail out any easier than when warm, and at higher speeds, everything seems status quo. as a matter of context, for the last couple years, i've been driving my bmw with oem michelin pilot sports (225/45/18F, 255/35/18R) during the cold winters and never had any problems with them. in sum, after they're warmed up, i don't think the rubber compounds are much different on summer tires than on all seasons. committed snow tires, that's a different story. anyway, my humble opinion . . . .

I had less grip on my Pzero's in the winter than in the summer which is the same issue I've had with all summer tires I've used. I'm not saying it's an uncontrolable grip problem but the same turns I take in the summer without oversteer in the winter I have oversteer, which is a bit more fun.

Thanks for sharing this on this forum. It's not surprising for me as I've experienced the same thing several times and at least in Europe experts know that the "thermo thesis" is made up by the tire industry to push their sales of winter tires. However, on this board there are still some warm weather theoreticians that are strong believers of the compound fairy tale. Check below link to my favorite thread on this: Tire discussion thread

To each its own. I couldn't be happier in below-freezing temps having swapped the PZeros for Blizzaks. For everyday around-town and short-commute driving, the difference is very significant, as there is not enough cumulative friction to bring summer tires up to a temperature that would make them sticky enough to be comparable to dedicated winter tires under the same conditions. From a pragmatic standpoint, the so-called "thermo-thesis" issue is a moot point: ultimately is up to the driver to do what he/she is comfortable with. Whether there is some absolute truth---apparently, and somewhat secretively, uncovered in Europe---and/or some of us are just blindly falling for a dark marketing ploy by the tire industry, is irrelevant: do what you're happy with, based on your actual experience. Kudos to those driving worry-free with PZeros on ice, if they can truly do it. Kudos to whose who feel unsafe with PZeros on ice and change to winter tires, if they experience real change for the better. Easy. No controversy.

I agree with you "smg" that everyone should do what he/she is happy with, based on actual experience. I feel unsafe with any tire on ice, doesn't matter if summer or winter tire. There's no difference. And of course (new) winter tires are unbeatable on snow! Here we are only talking about dry street driving at low temperatures. Yes, it takes summer tires longer to warm up because of the compound but don't believe that you'll have perfect grip with winter tires in city traffic just because of a different compound. They do also need to warm up and if you do stop and go at 10 degrees Fahrenheit, then no tire will provide you good grip. If you drive fast, then also summer tires gain good grip at low temperatures. That's the only statement here.

All tires are stickier in warm, dry conditions than in cold, dry conditions. The extent to which that's true varies by compound. I've been driving summer compound tires in dry conditions, 18 degree weather, all week with no problem. There is certainly less grip, but it's sufficient. I don't mind doing it, and that's why I don't feel the need to have A/S tires for the 911 (or Lotus, or S2000) for those clear, cold winter days. It does not take summer tires longer to warm up than winter tires. If anything it goes slightly the other way (because summer tires generally use a lighter casing and design), but in any case it's not much of a difference. The only problem with cold, dry driving is that it's hard to get heat in the tires and keep it there, and that summer tires suffer more as a result than A/S tires. The real issue is in snow. Summer tires simply don't stop or grip in those conditions. I've had incidents in my old Integra, Miata, and my S4, and I won't drive summer tires in even the slightest amount of snow anymore. That's why I have winter tires for the S4 (now) and X5. You do what you want to do, and more power to you. Let's just be clear about the point being made. IMO if you truly can't tell the difference between summer tires and A/S tires in the snow, or between mid-60's and sub-freezing weather with your summer tires, then you don't know what you're looking for.

I had PP's on my prior car and it was tough to get them warmed up adequately in the winter. It was fun, though, being able to get the car sideways at 25 MPH on clear roads. Now I run Blizzaks in the winter. They're nosier than PP's and not as good in the wet. However, they stick a lot better than I thought they would. On my favorite corner ("Turn four at Indy", my wife calls it), they're only 2 MPH slower before starting to squeal.

Glad we have good "European" experts to inform us about the "myth" of different tire compounds. IMHO, anyone who has ever driven on R Compound tires understands that their superior grip come from having a softer compound. Furthermore, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that summer tires and r compounds don't really reach optimal grip until they come up to temperature. What you seem to be saying is that the rubber compound in a summer tire like a P Zero is the same rubber compound in a Blizzak. In my experience driving on these tires in the winter that is just not the case. I took my Boxster (on Michelin Pilot Sports) to a superbowl party last Sunday in Chicago (below zero temps). I took it because it was dry and I don't like for the car to just sit all winter. I knew that the Michelins would not have a lot of grip, but it was shocking how much grip they gave up to the cold. Even with a meager 217hp on tap I could break the rear end loose almost at will. This is quite a contrast to the car I usually drive in the winter (996 C2 on Blizzaks). The 996 has over 100 extra horses, but the Blizzaks simply provide much more grip in the bitter cold. I am sorry but in my opinion your "no difference" advice is "bad" advice.

Totally agree with Ray. Summer tires in the winter do make for some fun sideways driving at much lower speeds than would be possible in the summer. But with that said, therein lies the problem. They will break away with no recovery possibility. As a result I only use winter tires on my sports cars during the winter months. Sure you can tippy toe around all winter; all the while hoping that you never get even a light dusting which will immobilize your car. To each his/her own. Just this week I witnessed a new GTO driving fast and then due to needing to avoid a car merging he completely lost all control and was unable to stop or slow down went right off the road into a community hitting the barrier of trees... Summer tires.

i appreciate your guidance, especially from someone who's apparently found what he was looking for (i'm presuming after all these years, no less). but as long as we're being clear, i never made any comparisions of driving in the snow, and i never said i couldn't tell a difference or that there was no difference in sub-freezing weather. but in very normal, non-spirited driving, i don't feel there's a lot of difference b/w my PZero's and my M&S's. i'm simply making the point that, in my experience, the PZero's are sufficient and not so terrible in winter as some make them out to be. i apologize if i didn't read the post that opinions were no longer allowed here. and to be further clear, i'm not suggesting that snow or a/s tires are unnecessary or that PZero's are ideal all year round. To the contrary, i've used blizzaks and think they're great, endorse a/s tires as i have them on one of my cars, and believe that one is not totally safe with summer tires in sub-zero temps. i was simply stating the proposition that they're not so bad under normal driving conditions as some people suggest-- again, IMHO.

and in many European countries (e.g., Germany, Switzerland) you would be in big trouble with the police for driving on summer tires. It's a big no-no. As someone who also lives in the NE and has just swapped 18" P-Zeros for Blizzaks after getting too scared having to tippy-toe around in them, I certainly have regained my confidence in my car now that I have Blizzaks. Each to their own........

I agree with Ray. I ran PS2s through last winter and will never do it again. The tires simply break away so easily and even the lightest of snowfall causes the car to drive like a sleigh. I'm very happy with my Bridgestone RE550 All Seasons thus far.

I didn't say you weren't entitled to your opinion. You might have noticed that I actually agree with it - to summarize, driving summer tires in cold, dry conditions does not equal certain death. I would hate, though, for your thoughts or those of others to be misunderstood, and for people to drive their summer tires in winter with undue confidence. If people take away that cold weather grip is nearly equal to warm weather grip, or assume that your conclusions apply to snow it would, in my opinion, be dangerous. Apologies if my words or tone were misunderstood.

i agree-- although i'd be saddened if someone took my word for it and couldn't get a feel for him/herself. but i could've been more clear. my apologies as well.

Interesting enough, my brother and I saw a GTO on a flatbed that appearantly flipped. And I mentioned to him, "he was probably driving too fast on those summer tires". He had aftermarket rims and summer tires. [QUOTE=pjalexandre]Totally agree with Ray. Summer tires in the winter do make for some fun sideways driving at much lower speeds than would be possible in the summer. But with that said, therein lies the problem. They will break away with no recovery possibility. As a result I only use winter tires on my sports cars during the winter months. Sure you can tippy toe around all winter; all the while hoping that you never get even a light dusting which will immobilize your car. To each his/her own. Just this week I witnessed a new GTO driving fast and then due to needing to avoid a car merging he completely lost all control and was unable to stop or slow down went right off the road into a community hitting the barrier of trees... Summer tires.[/QUOTE ]

Ray, if you would read what I wrote you would not quote me wrong. I wrote: So the "no difference" is related to driving on ICE as "smg" wrote: On snow winter tires outperform A/S and summer tires. There's no doubt at all but this is first and foremost due to the tread pattern of the tire and not the compound. It's right that the quoted European countries fine you if you have no winter tires on winterly roads with snow or snow slush. However, you're not obliged by law to have winter tires and you'll not get a ticket if you drive your car on dry or wet roads on summer tires in the winter. This is because the lawmaker is not convinced that winter tires are safer on dry or wet roads (Germany just re-issued this law in 2006). There's no evidence from tire or car manufacturers that winter tires are better than summer tires on dry roads. So we are glad to have Mr. Ray who is an American expert on tires!

Sure, you can drive on dry roads with summer tires in very cold weather. And if you are careful you will get away with it no problem. But just let your guard down a bit, and push it too hard in that corner you always take at speed in the summer and you just might find out why there is such a thing as winter tires. A Porsche in low winter temperatures with summer tires can be dangerous if not driven with care. The problem is that if you get up to any speed and are forced into any kind of quick evasive manuver, you stand a good chance of losing the car when normally that manuver would not be a problem. Summer tires in low temperatures just don't stick like they do in the summer.

Harold, I'm sorry but I believe that you are giving bad advise in the thread that you linked to. Tire manufacturers do use different compounds for different tires. Racing compounds, Summer compounds, and Winter compounds do exist (at least outside of Austria). I will agree to disagree.

You are quoting me a little out of context there. The preceeding paragraph was about a car that had crashed on summer rubber. My point was if you have an accident on summer rubber in wintry conditiions, you can expect to be treated differently than if you had winter rubber (i.e., they assume that was a pretty stupid thing to do, therefore you are "more at fault" and you will be punished more severely). So the law certainly treats you differently. Now, of course, some will argue that's silly law......

Ray, we don't need to have the same opinion, that's OK. But you interpret me wrong again. I never said that the compound of summer or winter tires are the same. Just that the impact of the compound is overrated in terms of temperature sensitiveness of tires. That's all. I had no intention to give advise. If someone misunderstood this, then I'm sorry. I said more than once that everyone should act upon his/her own experience and situation. For me as I drive my 996 only on dry roads on weekends, winter tires are not an issue as I feel enough grip on dry roads around the year with my summer tires and believe that the compound impact is overrated.

As long as you stay on dry, clean roads you'll be OK. But as soon as hit compacted snow or ice, you'll be in trouble. I believe in the rubber compound fairy. I could not go out of my neighorhood after the first snow of the season with my summer rubber. No control.....

right. as a counterpoint, i was simply making the observation that summer tires in freezing weather, once heated up, do not equate instant accident havoc, as some people appear to suggest. imho, i think the people who have had problems with summers in winter didn't heat them up enough before getting to their local starbucks and pushed it too hard getting out of their development. i'm sure this was the case with the GTO someone mentioned-- believe me, i see a whole bunch of idiots in ny/nj/ct getting stuck in snow b/c they never thought to swap out their oem 18 summer tires on their bmw's, etc.-- let alone when there isn't snow. Notwithstanding, summers may not be ideal for driving above 7/10's in February, but, then again, neither are most committed snows, whose breaking points aren't always progressive and clean themselves. under normal driving conditions, i felt pretty comfortable with my P Zeros in 18 degree weather (prior to recent cold spell, been averaging 600 miles per week). again, imho.

A few thoughts; - You will never get summer tires up to an optimum traction temperature driving on the street in 18 degree weather. If you think I'm wrong try the following test. 1) Go for a 30 minute drive (in 18 degree weather). 2) Pull into a gas station 3) Measure the temperature (with a tire thermometer) at the inside 1/4, middle, and outside 1/4 of your tire tread. Try the same test on a 75 degree day. You'll see a huge difference. - I didn't see anyone post that driving with summer rubber in the cold/dry weather is "an instant accident". However, you will be operating with greatly reduced traction vs. what the tire will provide on a dry 75 degree day.