Another IMS tale of woe...

After 140K of happy motoring, and having replaced the IMS pre-emptively several years back, it looks my LN IMS failed. I notices a PSM failure light on and scheduled a service, after just having a dealer service 400 miles back. On the way to the dealership the Service Engine Light came on. Its a 4 mile drive... On arrival the oil pressure is below normal... Very little unusual noise from engine. They requested to pull the engine during a diagnostic ...metal shards found. This happened Friday . It's now Monday and the diagnosis is IMS failure. Quote 22K for new engine. Any suggestions on things to suggest doing while they are at it?

You aren't seriously considering putting a $22k motor into a car that could barely be sold for $22k are you?

Quotes source post: 4648221

Quote: You have my sympathy. The dealership tech should know what to do when swapping engines. But just in case speak to the tech to ask him to please look around for anything in the engine compartment that needs attention which would be much easier with the old engine out and before the new engine is installed. Off hand I couldn't swap an engine without at least checking the starter motor wiring for any signs of degradation due to age/exposure to the elements. Be sure all the heat shields are intact and the exhaust system hangers and what have you are in good condition. It is bit costly in terms of parts but it might be a good idea to replace *all* coolant hoses. The labor would be less since with the engine out access to the hoses in the engine compartment are easier.

Thank you for those helpful suggestions. Will definitely address these. It may seem crazy to put 22K into this, but I looked after this car extremely well, and had the transmission rebuilt 4 years ago, so I feel I can probably get several more good years out of this car. On the flipside, it is worth nothing. No way I can get a well maintained C4 cab for 22k. The only reason I put this on this thread is to say: if you contemplate a 911 of the 2002 - 2005 vintage, go for a turbo without the IMS issue. It's worth the extra bucks.

Thanks for the optimism - probably worth 16K

Sorry to hear of this...sounds like you have a good plan going forward. Are you going to do any "post mortem" to see why your replacement IMS failed - how many years ago was it installed, how many miles on it, how regular were your oil changes, etc.?

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Quote: I know where you are coming from. Every time I take my 2002 Boxster, with currently over 312K miles, in for anything other than an oil/filter service I am probably spending a large percentage of the car's value but I have taken care of the car extremely well and know it very well. The engine, the car in fact, still runs just great and I still get a kick out of driving the car. My 2nd car is a 2003 996 Turbo so it is not like I have a real POS facing me if I don't want to drive the Boxster. Unless forbidden my recommendation is do an early oil/filter service. When I bought a new 2008 Cayman S in April of 2009 I did an oil/filter service at 750 miles. The oil filter element was filthy with trash -- normal for a new engine -- and the oil filter housing oil had a very visible metallic sheen to it from all the alum. bits that got chewed up by the oil pump -- which is also normal for a new engine based on my engine rebuilding experience. A subsequent oil/filter service -- around 750 miles later -- found the filter and oil in much better shape -- which I expected. You can change the oil/filter early then again at the end of "break in" (2K miles IIRC), then I have followed a 5K mile oil/filter service interval for both of my Porsche cars since I bought them. (The Boxster new. The Turbo used with just 10K miles. It has over 155K miles on it now.) Best of luck with your new engine.

Thanks, will definitely follow those recommendations. As far as my cars history: The IMS was replaced at 99K miles. ( i.e. 40 k back ) It has been serviced according to factory recommendations. Ironically, I just had the dealer do a service at 136500 miles three weeks ago. I had mentioned seeing a PSM failure light come on momentarily ( it promptly disappeared ).They did a full service and said it was due to the rear center brake light switch and replaced it. There was no warning of the IMS failure at all. The tech said the IMS replacement are usually good for 50K ( which I was not aware of ). Well, mine lasted 40K with normal driving, no track events or anything like that. So it goes.

Hi, That is a drag. You are in Tennessee so you are next door to flat six innovations / jake raby, in Georgia. You should contact him, he's the go to guy on this. Is your dealer putting in a brand 996 new engine, or a rebuild?, or a sourced donor motor... and its 22k US total including labor and miscellaneous parts? There is another company called RND engines that does rebuilds including upping the displacement, core swap, nickie's sleeves, etc I only know about this from reading on rennlist, hope it helps.

Your experience regarding the IMS (bearing) going from OK to toast in practically no time is a very common theme to these failure reports. Unfortunately that's the nature of the beast.

Quotes source post: 4648533

Quote: "Very little strange noise" is not common for an IMSB failure though... I would think that if it's the imsb it'd be making a racket...What did they base their diagnosis on? I think that IMSB failure has become the de-facto "go to" marketing tool of unscrupulous service dept's when it comes to the 996. I'd be seeking a second opinion before giving them any $.

Quotes source post: 4648857

Quote: The OP reported the engine was pulled and metal shards found. I believe there must have been some disassembly. It is not a hard dianosis to make. I've seen two engines, a 996 and a Boxster, in a dealership with a bad IMSB. With the transmission removed the IMS flange is removed and with the bearing exposed it is quite obvious if the bearing is the culprit or not. See pic for what I'm talking about.

Quotes source post: 4649454

Quote: Ha... if it had a bearing like that, "marbles in a can" would have been a mild symptom. From my reading of the original post (and I'm going from memory here) he said it didn't make any unusual noises - it was a CEL that tipped him off...

Sorry to hear about your trouble. If something like that happened to me, I would seriously consider a Renegade LS-3 V8 conversion. http://www.renegadehybrids.com

I think shops are quick to say IMS failure as a catch-all when an engine dies suddenly. Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

I am hoping to find the time to visit the tech in the next two days. It was definitely drivable, no oil leak whatsoever, and not even idling roughly. The Porsche technicians are pretty young, and I wonder if they have seen any of these. It's all recent model cars at that dealership. Anyway, will let you know what information I will glean from my visit. It is certainly a learning experience. Should have got the Hans Mezger designed 996 turbo

Quotes source post: 4650029

Quote: Have to admit that sounds a bit uncharacteristic of an IMS(B) failure. You didn't say where the "metal shards" were found. I found "metal shards" (albeit to use the term loosely) in the oil filter housing from my 2008 Cayman S when I changed the oil after just 750 miles from new. But this was normal metal (mostly aluminum) metal shedding by a new engine. A subsequent oil change about 750 miles later found hardly any trace -- and not enough to show up in a pic -- of any metal in the filter oil. At around 2K miles when I had the oil changed again this time at the dealer while we didn't bother to capture the filter oil the engine was running better and better and even at 2200 miles was running just fine. (It ran fine even after a '89 Volvo crossed over 2 lanes of traffic to smash into the side of the Cayman which rendered the car a pile of speed yellow scrap metal.) The 996 Turbo engine is not bullet proof and it costs upwards of $40K to replace should the need arise. Anyhow, I'm anxiously awaiting to read what you learn from your next visit with the techs. Take lots of pics of any engine hardware.

It would have been so much better to take to an Indy..Dealerships always just say "replace" and find quickest scape goat..Indy will usually give you more info & go deeper into the issue. I find it hard to believe the LN IMS failed..also failures usually happen to low mileage cars

Quotes source post: 4649447

Quote: The IMS was replaced at Music City Porsche & Audi approx May 5, 2012. I have had my Porsche's serviced there since 1994 until they closed last year. Andrew Heath was incredible and a good reason to own these cars. He retired unfortunately. I haven't been able to find a serial number of that IMS in my records. Thy showed my the remains of the IMS- the bearings were totally extruded. Here is a picture of the flange part, it looks pretty chewed up...

Here are the rest of the pictures of the carnage...

Well, there's no doubt that IMSB is toast.

Thank you for your offer. I decided to just bite the bullitt and have them replace it with a factory rebuilt engine from Germany. With everything in little pieces in their workshop I just felt I didn't have the energy to deal with negotiating shipping it elsewhere and starting again. Will let you know how this works out.

Got it back from dealership. Runs fantastic and sounds great ( different acoustics for some reason) Only disappointment is dealership did not credit me PCA discount on parts despite promising they would Of course, once I was driving I just put it all behind me. Running in a new engine, and plan another 140K on this one. No point selling it now. Maybe add a coupe down the road and keep this for sunny weather...

Nice, in 3 weeks time enjoy

Congrats...go back to the dealer to get the PCA discount. My dealer often forgets until I remind them and they adjust the bill.

Went back, and it turns out they did credit me the PCA discount. They just don't list it as a subtraction of the parts total like they did in the past. The German factory sourced rebuilt engine and all associated parts came to $11205.....add 30 hours labor plus other stuff needing work... This actually compared favorably to quotes I got elsewhere . Add the 2 year unlimited miles warranty and I feel OK about the whole spiel. A friend I talked to today had a similar disaster with his 996 turbo, and paid an apparently similar amount at an Indi but waited 3 months to get it back. Somebody else said it happened to a 997.. I thought the turbo models didn't have this issue? Oh, and did I mention it drives like a brand new car? There is no substitute ( for under $80K )

Quotes source post: 4652929

Quote: The Mezger engine has an IMS but the design is different than the M96/M97 so you don't see IMS bearing issues on the turbos and GT cars.

"The Mezger engine has an IMS but the design is different than the M96/M97 so you don't see IMS bearing issues on the turbos and GT cars." Plain bearing - Similar to LNE IMS Solution...

Quotes source post: 4652929

Quote: While the Turbo engine doesn't have the chain driven IMS and its sealed bearing -- the Turbo engine has a gear driven lay shaft that runs in plain bearings -- the lay shaft gear can loosen or the key that "locks" the shaft to the gear wheel can come loose -- and if either of these happen the effect is comparable to the N/A engine and its IMS bearing failing. Any engine has a number of failure modes. The engine is only as good as its weakest part. This can be an IMS bearing, a lay shaft key, the bolts holding the gear to the lay shaft, a rod bolt, a rod, a chain link, etc. I don't know what the percentage of Turbo engines have had this failure but the number of Turbo engines is quite small. The Turbo engine can also experience a coolant hose fitting coming loose. These are aluminum and epoxied into the block. It seems tracked cars are more likely to suffer this problem but as the car accumulates miles and time who knows? So far (knock wood) my 2003 Turbo with over 156K miles has not had this problem. I don't lay awake at night worrying about it though. The problem doesn't ruin the engine but it is an engine out job to address and once the engine is out all 6 or 7 of these fittings need to be redone.

A friend of mine had to have his turbo 996 engine rebuilt, but he said they had dialed in way too much boost ( 750hp!! ). It took months to be rebuilt at an Indie and was quite expensive. When I told hime what I paid he said I would not have saved much by going elsewhere . He tracks the car with extensive modifications. Interestingly, with less power he has improved his lap times presumably because it has smoother more predictable performance. I realize this would be out of my price range - no track time for me. ( heck - it's a convertible anyway...)

Quotes source post: 4654338

Quote: The Turbo engine is a pretty robust engine and can handle extra power. But as your friend found out there's a limit. The Turbo engine came from the 1999+ GT3 which itself was derived from the Le Mans winning engine developed for the 911 GT. This engine was fitted with titanium rods and IIRC its power output was in the 500hp range. So I'd hazard a guess that if one pushes one of these Turbo engines to the 500hp level he probably needs to think about some better rods. At least.

Quotes source post: 4649447

Quote: I now have a rebuilt engine from Porsche. It has a sticker which seems to indicate it has an LN IMS: What would be the warranty on this?

Quotes source post: 4671445

Quote: A great outcome and seems very reasonable compared to some figures I've seen. I guess we'll never know if it was the chicken or the egg. Best of luck with it!

Best to check and confirm with LN but if I remember correctly the warranty on the retrofit is two years/24,000 miles. Also, for the warranty to be effective I think the installation had to be registered with LN so you might want to check that too.

Porsche factory installs LN IMSBs?

Thank you again for this information. From what I was told this was “ factory rebuilt” and I guess it could have been sitting in storage somewhere. It certainly looks new. Anyway, I am not getting ulcers over this - will just drive it and enjoy it. From the info I now have, will look at replacing the IMS at 60k if I still have the car.

Any recommendations on when to do that first oil change on this rebuilt engine? The mechanic said he'd just do it at 10K...

Quotes source post: 4683270

Quote: Charles from LN offers his opinion in the attachment to post #38.

Quotes source post: 4648408

Quote: Or...spend the extra dough and have an oil-fed bearing (e.g., LN Engineering/Flat 6 Innovations/Jake Raby IMS Solution) installed that alleviates ANY possibility of an IMS failure. Expensive, yes...but MUCH cheaper than an engine replacement (or even a Turbo version 996).

Quotes source post: 4671445

Quote: FYI, an IMS retrofit still uses a balled-bearing (albeit improved ceramic hybrid ball bearings) and may still fail. Warranty of a retrofit is 2 years or 24,000 miles with a recommended replacement at every 75,000 miles or 6 years. If you want true piece of mind, you need the "IMS Solution," which uses a plain (no more *****), oil-fed bearing.

The dealership gave me a 2 year unlimited miles warranty - by word of mouth, for what its worth. I decided to do an early oil change ( today ) at my Indie at 2600 miles on the rebuild. My technician said he found it interesting that I received a short block. He said that when this issue first came up he was working at a dealership and they would be shipped a complete engine with headers and all, and would just bolt it in and reconnect - a very quick process. They said it was to keep labor down. I guess that's not done any more - they used all the old bits on mine and, $8512 of labor later, it was back in place. Parts were $11000 for the engine, I believe. They then did things like alignments etc. and the final total , with tax , was $24500 odd

I just noticed your comment on this thread. I'm current going thru bore scoring issues on my 997.1S I was think of and spoke to the gues at Renegade about getting a Renegade LS-3 conversion... the problem is they won't pass county Emissions testing. They are even the ones that told me this... unfortunate... as I heard a lot of good things about Renegade

Quotes source post: 4649877

Quote: I just noticed your comment on this thread. I'm current going thru bore scoring issues on my 997.1S I was think of and spoke to the gues at Renegade about getting a Renegade LS-3 conversion... the problem is they won't pass county Emissions testing. They are even the ones that told me this... unfortunate... as I heard a lot of good things about Renegade

Why put an LS motor in a Porsche just buy a vette and go from there the price of vettes are dirt cheap for a reason

Quotes source post: 4884175

Quote: When you add up the price of the LS motor and all of the things you have to change in order to get it to work, you're in the neighborhood of getting an FSI bulletproof performance engine.