The 996 GT2 "Widowmaker" tag. Time to explode the myth. - Page 4 - 911/Carrera GT - PistonHeads UK

In light of this post on another thread : RWD cossie wil said: I think I need a GT2 to keep the turbo company!!! Still, considering how quick a tuned turbo is, I'd think a GT2 is a real handful if you are not careful , I consider myself to be a pretty good driver with considerable rear wheel drive experience, and having owned a turbo for 9 months now, I'm not ashamed to say I think a GT would probably be a bit of a daunting prospect to drive even remotely quickly! I felt compelled to respond. Other 996 GT2 owners, ex-owners (standard or modified) and others that have driven these superb cars (for a minimum of 1000 miles), do please post your experiences from behind the wheel. Sorry, those of you who've experienced these cars from the passenger seat needn't post. Ok, this "Widowmaker" nonsense needs to stop, right here, right now I've owned two of these phenomenal cars. The first example was an evil handling motherf*ckingsonofab*tch (now owned by PH'er Consul) : It ended up at some of the best GT specialists in the UK, and in the process the handling was transformed into something close to how the factory originally intended : http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=447... I drove that car for 20k miles in all weathers, be it rain, shine, snow or ice. In that time I can only think of two occasions where I thought "Oh f*ck, prepare to meet your maker you kn*bhead, you've just mistaken ambition for ability". The first time was whilst driving the car home in the wet (having just collected it from Porsche Reading) when I hit a large section of standing water on the beginning of the Northbound link road between the M40 and the M5. The car slewed sideways, and being the complete muppet I am, I came off the throttle. Whilst that stopped the power induced oversteer, coming off the throttle so abruptly only encouraged the rear end of the car to swing in the opposite direction (rather rapidly). Fortunately the puddle ran out, I gathered the car up (yeh right) and suitably chastened, continued on my way. The second occasion occurred on a fast section of A road in N. Wales. Not concentrating, I approached an 80 Lepton bend at close to 120 Leptons. Realising my mistake too late, I braked as hard I dared without upsetting the balance/trajectory of the car, avoiding hitting the N/S kerb and also threading the car past the car approaching in the other lane. It was a tight squeeze (and that was just my sphincter) But both the car and I escaped undamaged, though the same can't be said for my undercrackers ...... But those were the only two "incidents" that were noteworthy. You'll appreciate that both incidents had nothing to do with the car, both were "operator error". The second car was a higher mileage example, but a far sweeter handling one. Even on tired suspension and a track biased geo set up, it was a great car to drive, and encouraged you to drive it with a different level of commitment to the first car. I went on to modify it and make it even better/more fun to drive : http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=104... As has been said on here on many previous occasions, set up is critical on these cars, as are fresh tyres, healthy dampers, springs, top mounts and bushes. Critical too is the fitment of some decent rear toe links to eradicate the rear steer caused by the standard rear toe arm bushes deflecting under load and causing unwanted toe changes. Many cars won't have had any ride height/corner weight adjustments in their life, whilst many will have had track biased set ups applied to nullify the understeer built in by the factory. Cars running their original springs and dampers will often have a saggy rear end (the springs sag with heat and age), this means the front to rear rake is incorrect and with the front end waving around in the breeze (only exacerbated by the rear end squatting under the engines non linear power delivery and copious torque), the handling can best be described as "character building". It's these poorly set up cars, with dampers, springs and tyres past their best, that have garnered the GT2 it's "Widowmaker" tag. That and inexperienced drivers expecting the car to drive like 996 Turbo. Drive a car with fresh tyres, fresh dampers, correctly set ride heights, corner weights and sensible toe and camber settings, and you'll find the cars to be very benign and enjoyable to drive. And let us not forget they have two feet of rubber on their rear wheels ..... The factory mapping isn't the best, it's non linear, accordingly they can seem rather flat, but when they do come on boost, it can upset the balance of the car (especially a poorly set up example) I was always of the opinion that the last thing these cars needed was more horsepower, however once my second car had been remapped, I immediately appreciated the improved power delivery, so far from the extra power making the car more difficult to drive, it actually made it easier. Fitting a decent suspension kit (Ruf, Bilsteins, KW's, Ohlins, Motons, JRZ's) takes these cars to another level and in the process makes them easier to drive still. They can be driven rapidly in the wet without troubling the boost gauge, and on smooth, well surfaced roads, even in the wet, full power can be deployed if the throttle pedal is used judiciously. You'll need to concentrate and learn new levels of anticipation, as you'll find yourself travelling very quickly indeed (hard to believe, but almost as quickly as in a Cayman R) and you'll also need to be able to read the road for changes in surface, cambers and bumps. Be prepared to put the effort in whilst driving them and the 996 GT2 will reward in a way a 996 Turbo never can. Buy one, you'll not regret it

never really had a problem with mine.you do have to be very careful in wet conditions but its the same as most super cars you drive it like an idiot it will foooooking kill ya

A good thread Henry! I've had my GT2 just over 4 years and am delighted to report that both the car and myself are still in one piece..! My trackday- cherry was popped with this car and my second ever trackday was at a wet Goodwood! Yes, you have to drive the car with some care but for me, that's part of the fun of owning such a vehicle. And when those turbos spool up, oh mamma. I'm reasonably confident I will never own a faster car. Yes, it has it's faults - a mk1 GT3 (996) is a more precise car to drive and makes the '2 a little unwieldy but I would certainly recommend anyone with a passion for 911s to have a go in one. Edited by JamieG on Sunday 16th November 09:14

I agree "Widowmaker" as a reference to the 996 GT2 might be exaggerated. All cars can do that. Although mine is not modified in the way yours was Henry, so standard suspension bits with just a geometry set up by Phil Hindley at Tech 9, it has so far been no drama on the road wet or dry. On track days it lets me know when it is not going to co-operate with unrealistic expectations of grip and driver talent in a way that allows recovery of composure without feeling out of control. This is also probably because self preservation kicks in and am seldom aiming for 100% commitment. However over the last 9 years covering over 25k miles on road and track days has allowed some track day exploration towards where 100% commitment sits, especially on some safer run off corners. It helps to play on something like a kick plate skid pan in a GT2, or any car, so you know what it does feel like when it is out of balance in the wet. Mid engine cars seem to be the tricky ones to catch when they let go.

Slippydiff said: "The second occasion occurred on a fast section of A road in N. Wales. Not concentrating, I approached an 80 Lepton bend at close to 120 Leptons. Realising my mistake too late, I braked as hard I dared without upsetting the balance/trajectory of the car, avoiding hitting the N/S kerb and also threading the car past the car approaching in the other lane. It was a tight squeeze (and that was just my sphincter) eek But both the car and I escaped undamaged, though the same can't be said for my undercrackers ." contango said: Reading the above, it sounds more like the owners have the potential to be the widowmakers, 120 nonchalent Mph on a public road with on coming traffic..... No wonder PH removed the "Speed matters" from their logo! Precisely my point, hence my use of the term "operator error" that you conveniently appear to have ignored They're not dangerous "Widowmakers" per se , in reality they require nothing more than a modicum of common sense and concentration to drive quickly. They're quick cars, so much so that 99.9% of other road users won't have the faintest insight into their overtaking capabilities. Many was the time I overtook cars (I believe this practice has been outlawed now ?) in a completely safe fashion with perfect visibility, no upcoming junctions or hazards etc etc. Only to be flashed by an oncoming roaduser half a mile up the road. Whilst they were frantically tugging on their headlamp flashers, the overtake was done and dusted (and with a simply huge safety margin). Morning Jamie

Only 7 months into the ownership of my particular car but it's an absolute joy to drive. Very powerful but equally predictable. Just fitted some RSS engine mounts so about to go for a play

An interesting thread Henry, driving mine recently must have re-kindled your enthusiasm.....?! Mine is a car that was criticised on here by many who jumped on the bandwagon to condemn it, all because it had a poorly repaired front wheel well. A proper repair complete, engine given a clean bill of health following a number of services at Fearnsport, a suspension re-fresh including 3 way Exe-Tc dampers, rebuilt diff to considered spec, remap plus a few very sensible mods, and what do I have??? One of the most engaging drivers cars I have ever experienced. It goes, stops and turns like a racecar but is utterly comfortable and tractable on the road. It has grunt a Carrera Gt would die for. Being fortunate to drive and race many serious pieces of kit, the 2 still attracts like none other and having had a GTR and 997GT3 neither get anywhere near. The car is Epic. Highlights: Chasing Rob Huff round Silverstone in his (now owned by a PH'er) - tricky as he had AO48 R's and I was on PS2's. Chasing the above in a 458 on the same day - whilst he will never admit it me in my GT2 were quicker... Getting to look at it's jaw dropping good looks Lowlights: Losing it once in the wet on the A5 in 4th gear, what did I expect trying to use it hard with nigh on 600 BHP in the cold, wet with heavily worn Yokos.....? They are so good I recently bought another, this time an 03 Clubsport.

Had mine now for just over two years, bloody love it. Came from 80/90's RWD cossie and a run of RS turbos before getting the Porsche bug. Been lucky to have several boxsters, 968 CS, 993C4S and a 993 (430bhp) turbo over the last 15 years, none of these cars come close to the GT2. It really is a drivers car, you have to pay attention behind the wheel when you want to press on, but equally you can do the commute in it if you wanted to. To me it feels like driving a boxster with the performance of the 993 turbo, very agile in a way the 993 turbo can only dream of and its a small cabin by todays standards the 997 and 991 cars feel so much bigger inside and you loose some of the intimacy. My car was on original tyres when i got it a couple years back on 12k, tread was still at 6mm but they were shot and had gone well past their best, and new set of N4 tyres transformed it. Understanding the car is part of the enjoyment of ownership, tyre temps and age or important plus letting gearbox oil etc get to temp as once it's all warmed up it's so fluid and the speed can build incredibly quickly. It is a very difficult car to replace, with the newer 997 and RS versions having set sail. Think "mistress" is a better moniker for the car, sure it will punish you when you are bad but reward you when you are good...... mine when I purchased it: and now 2 years later ( and yes I have kept all the original parts, and yes the new parts are all original to ;-)) Edited by unclepezza on Sunday 16th November 16:05

jfp said: Highlights: Chasing Rob Huff round Silverstone in his (now owned by a PH'er) - tricky as he had AO48 R's and I was on PS2's. Chasing the above in a 458 on the same day - whilst he will never admit it me in my GT2 were quicker... Getting to look at it's jaw dropping good looks. The b@stard assured me it'd never been tracked!

My old MB car loved it but was never in love it with (sound like a bloody woman ending a relationship there!) I just don't think I was a capable enough driver to be honest and could never really cover ground quickly in it despite it been a well sorted car. It bit me on a number of occasions and fortunately I never wrapped it around a tree. Still lovely things though, but doubt i'd have another, I preferred the GT3 I owned TBH

m33ufo said: jfp said: Highlights: Chasing Rob Huff round Silverstone in his (now owned by a PH'er) - tricky as he had AO48 R's and I was on PS2's. Chasing the above in a 458 on the same day - whilst he will never admit it me in my GT2 were quicker... Getting to look at it's jaw dropping good looks. The b@stard assured me it'd never been tracked! Ha ha yeah I saw that in the advert. A world touring car champ would never track their beloved road car right?! Personally, I think it's a selling point. I'll send you the photos when I get round to it.

jfp said: Ha ha yeah I saw that in the advert. A world touring car champ would never track their beloved road car right?! Personally, I think it's a selling point. I'll send you the photos when I get round to it. Pics would be good

I had a silver one for a year from new. Absolutely loved it! Only sold as an interesting investment opportunity came up and could do with the cash - thankfully it paid off...all be it a couple of years down the line! I've been thinking recently about getting one again as a weekend car - I just think they look epic and you can never get tired of those turbo's!

I've had mine for a few years now, and in my opinion its not a car you can switch off and just drive. You constantly need to be focused, for me especially along motorways (mine is setup more for track). You always need to keep an eye on how the road changes, camber etc, as she will change lanes - and increase the levels tenfold when it's raining - feeling the rear go light etc aqua planning isn't fun On trackshe's a joy, and when you get quicker you know it's down to you, and not any driver aids - it's very rewarding, but then don't get too confident or she will remind you you've not tamed her yet!

jfp said: An interesting thread Henry, driving mine recently must have re-kindled your enthusiasm.....?! Categorically, absolutely not. Well maybe, possibly, probably, ok, pretty much definitely m33ufo said: jfp said: Highlights: Chasing Rob Huff round Silverstone in his (now owned by a PH'er) - tricky as he had AO48 R's and I was on PS2's. Chasing the above in a 458 on the same day - whilst he will never admit it me in my GT2 were quicker... Getting to look at it's jaw dropping good looks. The b@stard assured me it'd never been tracked! Not sure which is funnier, the vendor claiming it, or you believing it It'll have been spanked more than all of Miss Whiplash's clients put together. Edited by Slippydiff on Monday 17th November 17:06

Slippydiff said: jfp said: An interesting thread Henry, driving mine recently must have re-kindled your enthusiasm.....?! Categorically, absolutely not. Well maybe, possibly, probably, ok, pretty much definitely m33ufo said: jfp said: Highlights: Chasing Rob Huff round Silverstone in his (now owned by a PH'er) - tricky as he had AO48 R's and I was on PS2's. Chasing the above in a 458 on the same day - whilst he will never admit it me in my GT2 were quicker... Getting to look at it's jaw dropping good looks. The b@stard assured me it'd never been tracked! Not sure which is funnier, the vendor claiming it, or you believing it It'll have been spanked more than all of Miss Whiplash's clients put together. Edited by Slippydiff on Monday 17th November 17:06 Ha ha priceless :-)

Slippydiff said: Ok, this "Widowmaker" nonsense needs to stop, right here, right now On the other hand, letting slip that you have tamed "the widowmaker" might lead people to imagine that you have large, gristly testicles.

El Guapo said: Slippydiff said: Ok, this "Widowmaker" nonsense needs to stop, right here, right now On the other hand, letting slip that you have tamed "the widowmaker" might lead people to imagine that you have large, gristly testicles. Are you suggesting PH is no longer the home of the powerfully built company director with large, gristly cajones ?

Slippydiff said: You'll appreciate that both incidents had nothing to do with the car, both were "operator error". Surely that's the point. Even the most dangerous "widowmaker" car isn't actually going to kill anyone whilst parked up. Add in 'an operator' however...

monthefish said: Slippydiff said: You'll appreciate that both incidents had nothing to do with the car, both were "operator error". Surely that's the point. Even the most dangerous "widowmaker" car isn't actually going to kill anyone whilst parked up. Add in 'an operator' however... Precisely my point, intrinsically they're not dangerous widowmakers, and driven by an "operator" with a modicum of care and common sense they're no no more dangerous than the equivalent horsepower 996 Turbo.

Slippydiff said: monthefish said: Slippydiff said: You'll appreciate that both incidents had nothing to do with the car, both were "operator error". Surely that's the point. Even the most dangerous "widowmaker" car isn't actually going to kill anyone whilst parked up. Add in 'an operator' however... Precisely my point, intrinsically they're not dangerous widowmakers, and driven by an "operator" with a modicum of care and common sense they're no no more dangerous than the equivalent horsepower 996 Turbo. The last time this was discussed (or was it the time before, or the time before that perhaps?) I think it was generally agreed that the term widowmaker generally applies to how forgiving or not the car is, and how communicative the car is around the limit. The GT2 (mk1) was reputed to be unforgiving and uncommunicative at the limit, and was reported to have been improved for the mk2, and your own OP suggests that the cars are very sensitive chassis/suspension tweaking. Fact or fiction? You decide... " while some fans dismiss the GT2's reputation as the 'widow-maker', I personally know of three people who are no longer here because the 996 GT2 turned out to be way too much " (911 & Porsche World, June 2008)

I also know of a fatal accident in a 996, driven by somebody who'd had a range of 911s over the years. My experience of the 996 was that it was very easy to get along with providing you're not asking too much of it, if you push it it bites and it generally happens at big speeds. I did 25k in mine and drove it on the Nurburgring, Spa, Brands, Thruxton, Bedford - I ran factory geo for most of the time until towards the end of my ownership I had it setup by Parr, it seemed worse if anything. I span it at Spa coming out of the bus stop with too much right foot, stopped next to the barrier just in time, very lucky. I span it on Brands GP coming through Clearways, the front went light over the crest as I turned in and it swapped ends leaving me facing the wrong way on the pit lane - s t scary. I had a healthy level of respect for my 996 but it had none for me

Owned this since April 2007 and can't really think of that GT2 sized space in the garage being filled with anything else, perhaps a 430 but these cars are just 911s to most people so get no attention anywhere. Try doing that with a Ferrari

996GT2 said: I did 25k in mine and drove it on the Nurburgring, Spa, Brands, Thruxton, Bedford - I ran factory geo for most of the time until towards the end of my ownership I had it setup by Parr, it seemed worse if anything. I span it at Spa coming out of the bus stop with too much right foot, stopped next to the barrier just in time, very lucky. I span it on Brands GP coming through Clearways, the front went light over the crest as I turned in and it swapped ends leaving me facing the wrong way on the pit lane - s t scary. Parr may have tweaked the geometry Gav, but they didn't adjust the ride heights and/or corner weights. Accordingly the car suffered from the usual 996 GT2 affliction, that being a saggy arse and no rake. Chucking big camber on the front and rear would only have exacerbated the handling issues. But worse still the rear dampers were toast (leaking and thus providing little in the way of damping) not surprising at 66k miles. I can't remember, but my guess is the tyres were probably past their best. With the Ohlins fitted, the car was an awseome piece of kit, I suspect you'd have really enjoyed driving it on track with the mods I'd done.

Slippydiff said: 996GT2 said: I did 25k in mine and drove it on the Nurburgring, Spa, Brands, Thruxton, Bedford - I ran factory geo for most of the time until towards the end of my ownership I had it setup by Parr, it seemed worse if anything. I span it at Spa coming out of the bus stop with too much right foot, stopped next to the barrier just in time, very lucky. I span it on Brands GP coming through Clearways, the front went light over the crest as I turned in and it swapped ends leaving me facing the wrong way on the pit lane - s t scary. Parr may have tweaked the geometry Gav, but they didn't adjust the ride heights and/or corner weights. Accordingly the car suffered from the usual 996 GT2 affliction, that being a saggy arse and no rake. Chucking big camber on the front and rear would only have exacerbated the handling issues. But worse still the rear dampers were toast (leaking and thus providing little in the way of damping) not surprising at 66k miles. I can't remember, but my guess is the tyres were probably past their best. With the Ohlins fitted, the car was an awseome piece of kit, I suspect you'd have really enjoyed driving it on track with the mods I'd done. I seem to remember they said they were adjusting the ride height as the adjusters were a real PITA to move. Whatever they did it didn't help much. In hindsight the dampers and everything else should have been replaced as they were no doubt the main issue, by the sounds of it you got the car properly sorted out, would have been great to drive it on that setup. Don't suppose you know where the car is now do you? If it came up for sale I'd probably have it back again, third time lucky

Bought my car in April 2008, at first it was a scary car, losts of understeer and all over the place at high speeds. Had the geo done at Snel Motorsports and it changed the car, its on rails at high speeds (Over 330km/h at the Autobahn). Still after all these years, every mile a smile.

I know of *my father actually knew them* 3-4 people in the uk who were killed by their 996 gt2's, one was an experienced driver

996GT2 said: I seem to remember they said they were adjusting the ride height as the adjusters were a real PITA to move. Whatever they did it didn't help much. In hindsight the dampers and everything else should have been replaced as they were no doubt the main issue, by the sounds of it you got the car properly sorted out, would have been great to drive it on that setup. Don't suppose you know where the car is now do you? If it came up for sale I'd probably have it back again, third time lucky I've just prepared a secondhand set of dampers for my GT3, it's boderline impossible to do on the car, and even off the car they're a complete PITA to free off (I ended up cutting the majority of spring seats and locking rings off, but managed to save the anti roll bar drop link brackets). I'd be amazed if Parr removed the dampers do free them off, I'm equally doubtful they freed them off on the car, but without wishing to cast aspersions, my guess is the ride heights and cornerweights wouldn't have been adjusted ...... ^ ...... the rear end is lower than the front in the above pic. It did look good though ! I know you weren't a massive fan of the ride height I ran the car at with the Ohlins on Gav, but it's ability to deal with compressions on the road at high speed (and undulating roads generally) was otherwordly. It was a truly an epic car. Whilst searching through some paperwork yesterday, I found a copy of the original advert I'd printed off when I went to view the car. I really wish I hadn't sold it now I dare say if you speak to Tom or Dan at 911V they might contact the present owner on your behalf.

Slippydiff said: Damn I miss that car She does look like she's riding a bit high in the other photo but if that's what it takes to make it work as a better road car then I could live with it. If the current owner's reading this and wants to sell send me a PM.

Original tag applied to the 993 GT2 ........ back in the days when 450 BHP was a lot ....... now F12 has 720 !! but many were boost modified ... so things happened.

I'm going to sound naive but do 996 GT2's have ESP?

yes, your right foot and a LSD, thats all folks.

SkinnyP said: I'm going to sound naive but do 996 GT2's have ESP? No.

Xpuffin said: SkinnyP said: I'm going to sound naive but do 996 GT2's have ESP? No. It was nice knowing you folks. Cheerio

Always loved the 96 GT2 From that magical epoch where you have modernity and extreme performance but it still feels bespoke and properly simple and racecar derived. Along with the 96 gt3s an end of an era IMO and one to keep IMO.

I'm certainly keeping mine, but, from all the previous and current owners...what is the best suggested suspension set up? I know mine looks like its on original dampers and rusty springs, so i will need to update at some point, is there the ultimate set up ?

I owned one of these after just turning 24 in back in 2005, I was looking to get into a Turbo at the time until I saw one of these and just fell in love with the looks. I drove it like an absolute loon and tuned it to over 600bhp, If you were sitting in the passenger seat when it hooked up in second gear it would almost make your vision go blurred. With a decent suspension set up (cannot praise Chris at CG enough) and once you had found its limits I actually found it quite forgiving, although 100mph+ 4th gear rear end step outs were not uncommon in the rain, However I found you needed lightening fast reactions to really get the most from it. The PCCB were toilet and these were binned after a couple of months as they pitted quite badly, The only other week spot I found was the gearbox, I think I had mine rebuilt three times in the time I had the car but that is evident in the way it was driven and the power put through it. I kept this for over 4 years and over 50000 miles without accident and it was an awesome experience, I found it a lot more hard core that the 7GT2 I owned a couple of years after selling it.

Suspension wise I had mine serviced by Chris at CG and he removed the shocks for factory refurb plus changed a load of bushes etc and set it up at about 40k which made a world of difference to road manners, just felt so much more stable and predictable though I'm embarrassed to admit no track time at all...

Suspension wise I had mine serviced by Chris at CG and he removed the shocks for factory refurb plus changed a load of bushes etc and set it up at about 40k which made a world of difference to road manners, just felt so much more stable and predictable though I'm embarrassed to admit no track time at all...

W1TAK said: I'm certainly keeping mine, but, from all the previous and current owners...what is the best suggested suspension set up? I know mine looks like its on original dampers and rusty springs, so i will need to update at some point, is there the ultimate set up ? I went from standard to Bilstein PSS9, then to the current exe-tc 3 way set up with progressive springs. Cost wise the jump from standard went £2,500 then £8,000 respectivy plus fitting. As slippy has already stated updated toe links and a rebush are also needed, plus of course a decent geo. Most would be more than happy with the PSS9, the exe-tc is a luxury but DOES perform superbly. Easy, relatively........

I lend my gt2 to someone for a test drive and we ended up in a tree...me with 2 broken legs in a wheelchair...worst mistake of my life letting another guy drive...I was passenger seat still have the car its in bits... id like to reshell it as engine and box and all rear ok

kleonard said: I lend my gt2 to someone for a test drive and we ended up in a tree...me with 2 broken legs in a wheelchair are you okay now?

better before the test drive but could have been worse...was horrible was in hospital for weeks...i think I was lucky to be honest if you seen the car...had to learn how to walk again...never lend your gt2 to anyone not experienced ...I learned the hard way

kleonard, thats terrible

kleonard said: better before the test drive but could have been worse...was horrible was in hospital for weeks...i think I was lucky to be honest if you seen the car...had to learn how to walk again...never lend your gt2 to anyone not experienced ...I learned the hard way I think I remember you posting about this at the time. A shocking story, glad you got out ok and can tell the story now.

anyone want a 996 gt2 convertible...? from doors back perfect...engine box ok...rear car perfect might sell it as it is

Question: If the 996 GT2 is not dangerous and it does not scare you, why would you want to buy it in the first please?? Discuss.

hygt2 said: Question: If the 996 GT2 is not dangerous and it does not scare you, why would you want to buy it in the first please?? Discuss. Eh, what's to discuss ? The GT2 is a challenge to drive quickly (and all the moreso if they're poorly set up/maintained), it's also a different drive to any of the other 996/997 GT3/2/C4/2S/Turbos, but that doesn't mean it's "dangerous" or indeed "scary". However ANY turbocharged 460hp rear wheel drive car (without driver aids) can and probably will be dangerous in the wrong/inexperienced hands. But as I've stressed before, driven with a modicum of common sense and concentration, there's nothing intrinsically dangerous or scary about the 996 GT2. As for the second part of your statement. I don't think I've ever bought a car because it scares me

kleonard said: anyone want a 996 gt2 convertible...? from doors back perfect...engine box ok...rear car perfect might sell it as it is If you could forward some photos of what is left I could be interested, I have a project in mind...

hygt2 said: Question: If the 996 GT2 is not dangerous and it does not scare you, why would you want to buy it in the first please?? Discuss. What a strange statement.... Because it's challenging and deserves a healthy respect, goes like s t off a shining shovel and looks and feels gorgeous - that's why. Buying a car because it's dangerous is the most bizzare suggestion I think I've ever heard....

Afraid Im with kleonard, and cant explode the myth. The only drivers of my 911's are my mechanic and I. Only once have I ever broken the rule when one day I asked a trusted employee to move the GT2, from one garage to another. It was destroyed within the hour, upended over a kerb through a catch fence, and on its roof into a hill. Total write off. We think he lost the rear in second gear, jumped on the brakes, but hit the throttle because of the offset pedals, and unleashed all 500 odd horsepower which spun him the other way into a kerb and over it went, still in second gear. You wouldnt have believed the violence of it all if you hadnt seen it, as it all happened within 100 metres of a set of lights at which hed been stationary. I loved that car, it had never bitten me, and wish I still had it. The worst bit was my bloody Porsche mates all telling my wife, "oh yes, thats why they are called the widowmakers", thereby destroying forever whatever chances I had of replacing it. The arguments with my insurers over the claim just went on and on for months until they worked out that it was hardly a fraud and paid up. All together a disaster.

Several years ago a friend of mine had a reasonable but repairable off in his . About 12 months after it was repaired the OPC mechanic wrote it off again properly when in was in for a service . This was actually quite lucky as he got a strong payout from Porsche at a time when GT2's took a big drop at about 3 years old . 120k to 60k or so if I remember correctly . But ... If that car , a yellow CS was available now ( un crashed ) I'd have it in a heartbeat .

simonoz said: Afraid Im with kleonard, and cant explode the myth. The only drivers of my 911's are my mechanic and I. Only once have I ever broken the rule when one day I asked a trusted employee to move the GT2, from one garage to another. It was destroyed within the hour, upended over a kerb through a catch fence, and on its roof into a hill. Total write off. We think he lost the rear in second gear, jumped on the brakes, but hit the throttle because of the offset pedals, and unleashed all 500 odd horsepower which spun him the other way into a kerb and over it went, still in second gear. You wouldnt have believed the violence of it all if you hadnt seen it, as it all happened within 100 metres of a set of lights at which hed been stationary. I loved that car, it had never bitten me, and wish I still had it. The worst bit was my bloody Porsche mates all telling my wife, "oh yes, thats why they are called the widowmakers", thereby destroying forever whatever chances I had of replacing it. The arguments with my insurers over the claim just went on and on for months until they worked out that it was hardly a fraud and paid up. All together a disaster. I'm afraid that was a schoolboy error on your part, and one which I'm sure you regret. As I'm sure you will agree, its not the value of the car that stops you letting people use it, but the potential for it all to go horribly wrong. I used to let pretty much anyone drive my GTR, it was idiot proof, but my GT2 is a different story. It deserves respect, not because it's dangerous per say but because of what it is. If I had an F40 it would be treated like the GT2, not because its worth £750,000 but because its just too risky.... I wonder how many people who have binned GT2's do so because they just hop in, naively thinking it's just a 911, and treat with with contempt? It's difficult to describe to people just how sensitive you need to be with the controls, regardless of your capability, they think you're being a condescending prick.

simonoz said: Only once have I ever broken the rule when one day I asked a trusted employee to move the GT2, from one garage to another. We think he lost the rear in second gear, jumped on the brakes, but hit the throttle because of the offset pedals. You wouldnt have believed the violence of it all if you hadnt seen it, as it all happened within 100 metres of a set of lights at which hed been stationary. I loved that car, it had never bitten me Your comments are telling, and actually concur with most other contributors comments (even Karls). Losing the rear of car in second gear doesn't just happen if you're using the throttle judiciously. If however you were to flatten the accelerator hoping to get the full effect of the massive surge available (this whilst on cold tyres, an uneven or wet surface) there's every chance it could and would happen. All the moreso if you weren't familiar with the standard car's peaky, non-linear power delivery. A bit like Karl, I've been in the passenger seat of a 996 GT2 when it was crashed by an idiot driver trying to impress me with his non-existent driving skills. And you're right, it's a very brutal and violent experience. It was of course "pilot error" and thus completely avoidable.

A friend of mine in Germany likes to use his GT2 in all conditions, he even takes in the odd hill climb - and wins.... Meet Uli: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otK9TlipU9s&li... Glorious use of the weapon, oh and before you asks yes that is Walter in his car at the Ring.

jfp said: A friend of mine in Germany likes to use his GT2 in all conditions, he even takes in the odd hill climb - and wins.... Meet Uli: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otK9TlipU9s&li... Glorious use of the weapon, oh and before you asks yes that is Walter in his car at the Ring. and be very lucky https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pqcXxfpw2I

Xps911 said: and be very lucky https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pqcXxfpw2I great save!

Xps911 said: jfp said: A friend of mine in Germany likes to use his GT2 in all conditions, he even takes in the odd hill climb - and wins.... Meet Uli: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otK9TlipU9s&li... Glorious use of the weapon, oh and before you asks yes that is Walter in his car at the Ring. and be very lucky https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pqcXxfpw2I Yeah I've seen that. He went in too quick and paid the price, that said he gathered it up as the car responded to his inputs. Not sure it was luck, skill or a bit of both. But that's exactly the point, take liberties at your peril. What gives any of us the right to drive beyond our capabilities? and that's just it, if you do in the GT2 and you cant gather it up it will bite, if you stay (just) inside the line it will reward. Of course what you do on a track is a whole new matter :-) as I think its safe to say exploring it's limits (or yours) on a public road probably isn't a great idea in a GT2 or anything remotely quick...

jfp said: I think its safe to say exploring it's limits (or yours) on a public road probably isn't a great idea in a GT2 or anything remotely quick... fully agree on that one. I'm still learning mine on track, but it is rewarding when you see your times decreasing, and equally frustrating when you feel you've had a really good lap - and then find out it was slower!! lol

Xps911 said: jfp said: I think its safe to say exploring it's limits (or yours) on a public road probably isn't a great idea in a GT2 or anything remotely quick... fully agree on that one. I'm still learning mine on track, but it is rewarding when you see your times decreasing, and equally frustrating when you feel you've had a really good lap - and then find out it was slower!! lol Good work that man!

WCZ said: great save! Excellent save, and unlike a race circuit, not a lot of room to gather things up before you end up in a car/scenery interface scenario.

I think if I have understood correctly: Slippydiff said: 996 GT2 is not a widowmaker if: this this this and as long as this this this Given the caveats, I'm not convinced the myth is exploded. Then there are the very sobering real-life accounts of things going wrong in these cars.

jfp said: A friend of mine in Germany likes to use his GT2 in all conditions, he even takes in the odd hill climb - and wins.... Meet Uli: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otK9TlipU9s&li... Glorious use of the weapon, oh and before you asks yes that is Walter in his car at the Ring. Did you see the flex in the sidewall on the rear tyres, looks as if they are trying to tear themselves of the 12" rim! Quality piece of car control.

braddo said: Given the caveats, I'm not convinced the myth is exploded. Then there are the very sobering real-life accounts of things going wrong in these cars. Let's say I have a pilots license and I've flown a Cessna Skyhawk for three years, my mate (himself an accomplished pilot) buys/leases himself a Learjet 85. "Hey Slippy, you can fly yeh ?" I say "Sure can". "You should take my 85 up, see what you think." I do, I crash it, we both die. Does that make the Learjet a "Widowmaker" ? I fly a Robinson R44, my mate buys a Bell Jetranger, he says I should fly it because it makes my Robinson R44 look like stunned slug. We go up, I crash it, I die, he ends up with two broken legs. Does that make the Bell Jetranger a "Widowmaker" ? You can't expect to jump into what was the fastest car Porsche produced (until the CGT ?) and expect to take liberties with it. It's a stiffly sprung, 460hp rear wheel drive car with no driver aids whatsoever, course they'll spit you off the road if you take liberties with them ! The only "ifs" are : if you're endowed with a modicum of common sense, if you're respectful of what you're driving, if you're prepared to concentrate and if you're prepared to drive within your own capabilities. I've done 25k miles behind the wheel of a couple of 996 GT2's in ALL weathers. Others on here have done similar mileages and running more horsepower. They've all lived to tell the tale. When the GT2 I was a passenger in crashed, I wasn't in the least bit surprised. We took off as the sliproad fell away (yep no kidding). I remember thinking "if this guy gathers this up, he's a driving god, if he doesn't this'll be the mother of all shunts". Of course he wasn't a driving god, if he had been, he'd have realised that wheels/tyres don't steer when their not in contact with the Tarmac, but more importantly, had he been a driving god, he wouldn't have tried to do what he was attempting in the first place ........ When we did land, the dope had put such a huge amount of opposite lock on whilst in mid air, the front wheels were pointing in the wrong direction. When the front tyres hit the Tarmac, they bit and we turned 90 degrees left at something close to 80mph, unfortunately/fortunately, (depending on your view) the Armco was no more than 15 feet away. We hit it at unabated speed, I watched mesmerised as the front of the car went under the single layer Armco and said section of Armco made its way inexorably up the bonnet like a large, blunt guillotine. It's true, time does slow down in these circumstances, I thus had time to consider meeting my maker, it wasn't long, but in the time I had available, I came to the conclusion the event itself would most likely be very quick and thus painless. Then as the weight of the uprooted Armco (3 posts pulled clean out of the ground) and the increasing angle of the bonnet/depth of the front of the car overcame the forward motion, the car stopped and was then instantaneously catapaulted backwards by the energy stored in the Armco. We did a full 360 degree spin before hitting the Armco on the same side again, this time with less force, but still sufficient to "eject" my glasses from my face. That incident totally changed my perception of who I was prepared to sit alongside in a car. Before it I'd been happy to sit next to anyone in any car, regardless of their talent. Now if I have ANY doubts, I just won't entertain sitting in the passenger seat. And even if I do sit next to someone I trust, but I think they're going to try and impress me, I make a point of saying to them "You don't need to drive quickly or try and impress me.........."

It`s amazing how quickly people who think they`re talented run out of it when something unexpected happens.

ArcticGT3 said: It`s amazing how quickly people who think they`re talented run out of it when something unexpected happens. Exactly, and when it goes wrong in a 996 GT2, rest assured you will be going quickly. I did a driving day in my first GT2 with Bernard Aubrey, we used Chobham (Longcross) We went on the proving ground pad to play with the grip limits. It was quite simply staggering how much grip the tyres had on the smooth, grippy surface. Even under severe provocation the rear tyres were unwilling to relinquish their grip. But Bernard went on to say the surface at Longcross is flat, grippy and smooth. On the road there'll be cambers, surface imperfections and changes in the types of tarmac, in short the grip levels will never be as consistent on the public roads. Thus the chance to lose adhesion is far higher. Throw in damp or wet roads and the situation changes again drastically.

Slippydiff said: Let's say I have a pilots license and I've flown a Cessna Skyhawk for three years, my mate (himself an accomplished pilot) buys/leases himself a Learjet 85. "Hey Slippy, you can fly yeh ?" I say "Sure can". "You should take my 85 up, see what you think." I do, I crash it, we both die. Does that make the Learjet a "Widowmaker" ? I fly a Robinson R44, my mate buys a Bell Jetranger, he says I should fly it because it makes my Robinson R44 look like stunned slug. We go up, I crash it, I die, he ends up with two broken legs. Does that make the Bell Jetranger a "Widowmaker" ? You can't expect to jump into what was the fastest car Porsche produced (until the CGT ?) and expect to take liberties with it. It's a stiffly sprung, 460hp rear wheel drive car with no driver aids whatsoever, course they'll spit you off the road if you take liberties with them ! The only "ifs" are : if you're endowed with a modicum of common sense, if you're respectful of what you're driving, if you're prepared to concentrate and if you're prepared to drive within your own capabilities. I've done 25k miles behind the wheel of a couple of 996 GT2's in ALL weathers. Others on here have done similar mileages and running more horsepower. They've all lived to tell the tale. When the GT2 I was a passenger in crashed, I wasn't in the least bit surprised. We took off as the sliproad fell away (yep no kidding). I remember thinking "if this guy gathers this up, he's a driving god, if he doesn't this'll be the mother of all shunts". Of course he wasn't a driving god, if he had been, he'd have realised that wheels/tyres don't steer when their not in contact with the Tarmac, but more importantly, had he been a driving god, he wouldn't have tried to do what he was attempting in the first place ........ When we did land, the dope had put such a huge amount of opposite lock on whilst in mid air, the front wheels were pointing in the wrong direction. When the front tyres hit the Tarmac, they bit and we turned 90 degrees left at something close to 80mph, unfortunately/fortunately, (depending on your view) the Armco was no more than 15 feet away. We hit it at unabated speed, I watched mesmerised as the front of the car went under the single layer Armco and said section of Armco made its way inexorably up the bonnet like a large, blunt guillotine. It's true, time does slow down in these circumstances, I thus had time to consider meeting my maker, it wasn't long, but in the time I had available, I came to the conclusion the event itself would most likely be very quick and thus painless. Then as the weight of the uprooted Armco (3 posts pulled clean out of the ground) and the increasing angle of the bonnet/depth of the front of the car overcame the forward motion, the car stopped and was then instantaneously catapaulted backwards by the energy stored in the Armco. We did a full 360 degree spin before hitting the Armco on the same side again, this time with less force, but still sufficient to "eject" my glasses from my face. That incident totally changed my perception of who I was prepared to sit alongside in a car. Before it I'd been happy to sit next to anyone in any car, regardless of their talent. Now if I have ANY doubts, I just won't entertain sitting in the passenger seat. And even if I do sit next to someone I trust, but I think they're going to try and impress me, I make a point of saying to them "You don't need to drive quickly or try and impress me.........." Very good point old Chap. Saved me the time of posting similar analogy about a Piper Cup a Pits Special... and a a Chap who'd just passed his PPL

Great cars ..just you need to be experienced to drive them that's all ..!

No....you need to have respect.

I wouldn't personally call the GT2 (or any car, really) a Widowmaker, but to the extent that people might consider any modern car to be a widowmaker, I understand why the GT2 would be a prime candidate. It doesn't suffer fools, is capable of such incredible speed and is sensitive to setup (incl. tyre/suspension condition etc). I'm not much of an aviation buff but to my mind the GT2 might be analogous to something like a Spitfire - no safety net of course, capable of amazing things when handled properly by a skilled and experienced pilot. BUT, definitely not something in which a Cessna Skyhawk pilot should be heard to say, "Watch this!" Edited by braddo on Friday 28th November 14:51

No personal experience of the GT2 but I know a guy who's owned one from new (or nearly new). He's covered a total of 130k miles as a daily drive, without serious incident. Admittedly he has experience as a racing driver but, from what I understand from speaking to him, he pedals the car with a decent level of commitment and loves the feedback the car gives. In the right hands, these cars can be pushed...

kleonard said: Great cars ..just you need to be experienced to drive them that's all ..! Xpuffin said: No....you need to have respect. But that is true of any powerful car with limited/no driver aids. The criticism often levelled at the GT2 was that it was poor in communicating the approach to the limit. If the GT2 isn't a widowmaker, then the term (as applied to cars) doesn't exist.

Plenty of trashed CGT's on Wrecked Exotics. Neither car suffers fools gladly. But then not many RWD cars with in excess of 450hp and zero driver aids do ........ ^ Worked just fine until the world went crazy with litigation, Health and Safety, Nanny States etc ........

Slippydiff said: Plenty of trashed CGT's on Wrecked Exotics. Neither car suffers fools gladly. But then not many RWD cars with in excess of 450hp and zero driver aids do ........ ^ Worked just fine until the world went crazy with litigation, Health and Safety, Nanny States etc ........ i know of a guy who has a stable of cars one being anF40 which when he took it on an mot on a loose surface road lost it and crimped the front and rear he was most embarrased as hed driven F1 cars and is some noise in the british F1 scene very experienced driver

I upgraded my 996tt to about ~700+ hp with a built engine and new k24's with 20g compressors (thanks AES), extra pump, gt2rs coolers, exhaust, rods, injectors etc., etc. Boost now reads at 1.3bar peak after air leaks finally cured. Protomotive tuned and 2 years and 12 k trouble free miles later, it's worked out all fine, not missed a beat in that time, although my heart has on few occasions especially in second or third gear ! It seems a great (albeit not cheap at about £25k ish) solution; it is super, super fast and yet if not in the mood, the electronics are there in the background, unlike a GT2. That back up feels good on bad roads. I mostly drive it in anger with the electronics off, as i don't want the throttle cut back unexpectedly. I think my car suspension was well set up, as I am still alive 2 years later and have used every ounce of the power, often. My ex Porsche lead mechanic did a fantastic job delivering the build I wanted despite me being a bit overly fanatical at times (a 911 turbo owners nature I often wonder?), and at a good price too. The front wheel drive has worked hard since the upgrade surprise surprise, and I don't use a boost controller either, as I always want max boost available just in case a big bike turns up etc. And boy I have had my best races with them, some really epic memorable ones. Not been overtaken in anger either, only one of Ken's monsters is going to get past this 996tt beast ! So, OK, its not a beautiful special GT2, but with GT2 eating acceleration still feeling fresh after 2 years, I can live with the GT2's better looks. I have the same slightly wider tyres as the GT2 as well. No need for more power, it is totally bonkers on the road as it is, I can't imagine selling it. And isn't the 996TT looking a bit more classical now ? and it is simple to tune and with the tiny block Metzger engine and a proper gearbox, it really rocks. I was shocked how compact the engine core is, it is clearly race bred. apologies for the long rant !

but this moment was a bit concerning ! Engine being rebuilt.

a few pics of the motor... Pauter rods going in.... There is the intermediate shaft driving the oil pump - this is the 996tt engine's achilles' heal, you can see the bolt holes in the back of the large cog wheel, it is cheaply bolted to the shaft, and sometimes it comes loose. That means a loud rattle at first and then eventually the oil pump won't get driven anymore as you can see - means a full engine rebuild, as per my engine. In my case the new shaft had its bolts loctite'd in for extra protection so it hopefully does not happen again. No oil pump upgrade in my case but a GT3 pump is nicer. The new intermediate shaft... engine back together the wolf in sheep's clothing...

Someone I know who’s reached out to me a few times over the years now owns Rob Huffs old 996 GT2 tuned by Herr Ruf. This thread should be renamed. Kleanord is Leonides. Once they were Spartans

Just be careful with any 'Ruf' GT2s. My 996 GT2 went there and had the full Nardo engine upgrade plus carbon panels at 50,000 Euros+vat about 15 years or more back, so I know them well. (The car was sold a long time ago though) The reason is that there was a UK GT2 floating around with Ruf badges that the owner claimed was tuned by Ruf. It was at Vmax once when I was there with Marcel Ruf (Alois's son) who came with Adam in his CTR Yellowbird. Marcel looked at the car and said that it had never been to Ruf and the parts fitted were definitely not from Ruf.

The car I'm taking about is Robs old car. Its never been to VMAX as far as I'm aware .

IMI A said: The car I'm taking about is Robs old car. Its never been to VMAX as far as I'm aware . That car was modded by someone in the UK AFAIK: http://www.911uk.com/viewtopic.php?p=1030493

Hmmm maybe I'm confused. Certainly saw a car just like that in 911 and Porsche World or the like saying tuned by Ruf and discussing his other cars? Curious.

Back to main point. Epic cars Ruf or not. A stock one too much for me!

As Guy said, Rob Huff's car definitely wasn't a Ruf or indeed modified/fitted with Ruf parts. Another contributor to this thread knows Rob well and has his own well modified '6 GT2, I think he's driven Rob's car.

its my own confusion not the owners. Will have look at past mags if library site I know still up.

Mate of mine put his foot down in one of these a long while back. Lots of enthusiasm and lack of talent ended up looking like this

Rather fitting thread, I stumbled across this yesterday: https://youtu.be/8bl8mfxcMS0 Fast forward to 11:40 for the cringe moment

^^^

Have any owners on here bought a 996tt and removed the driveshaft to make it RWD? Wondering if that gets you close to a budget GT2 experience if you add in an LSD?

Kleonard said: I lend my gt2 to someone for a test drive and we ended up in a tree...me with 2 broken legs in a wheelchair...worst mistake of my life letting another guy drive...I was passenger seat still have the car its in bits... id like to reshell it as engine and box and all rear ok So what ever happened to the car after 2014? Was it put back into use - engine at least? I have to say that I disagree with Henry's interesting post but I think it depends on your definition of "Widowmaker". I think the M16 or was it the AK-47, was also called the 'widowmaker' in NI. Those two weapons are also 'safe' in the right hands. For me its about a car with minimal safety aids but easily lost even in professional hands and moreso with 'beginners' or those with over inflated egos. Pip

Pip1968 said: I have to say that I disagree with Henry's interesting post but I think it depends on your definition of "Widowmaker". I think the M16 or was it the AK-47, was also called the 'widowmaker' in NI. Those two weapons are also 'safe' in the right hands. For me its about a car with minimal safety aids but easily lost even in professional hands and moreso with 'beginners' or those with over inflated egos. Pip Having looked back at this thread, I'm pleasantly surprised not only at the number of owners/ex-owners who contributed to it, but just how many said the 996 GT2 was a great car and that they enjoyed owning/driving them. They're rare and special, not just because of their rarity, but because Porsche doesn't produce cars like them very often. Out of all the cars I've owned, the GT2 along with the 997 Cup engined Mk1 996 GT3 and my old tweaked Impreza 22B were the one's I came to respect the most, because they were either flawed to some degree, or their performance was so easily accessible (that'd be the Impreza then) The bottom line is this, in the wrong/inexperienced hands ANY car is a widowmaker. It's just that the average 1.0 Nissan Micra owner doesn't try and explore the limits of his and his cars abilities very often, whereas the owners of high/er performance cars do... Widowmaker car ? (4WD, huge tyres, no doubt it has sophisticated TC or DSC too) or an inexperienced show off ? : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SGIJXbghxg I used to know the roads (and indeed their foibles) that make up the Evo Triangle well, having lived just 30 minutes from them for nearly 6 years, and spent many happy hours driving them in all manner of cars and weather conditions. Evo carried out their tests of cars on these roads with good reason, they have qualities that are excellent for exposing the weaknesses (and strengths) in any car's suspension. And it's those very same qualities that all too often catch out individuals who don't understand what they're doing, or indeed what they're driving ... So here we have the same again, this time a 200hp Honda Civic on the Triangle (2 mins 24 secs) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoDAX1ZJ-g8 15 seconds earlier and he'd probably have done what another individual went on to do a couple of years later ... Same with this individual, less than 5 seconds later/earlier and that innocent motorcyclist could easily have become another victim of a an idiot showing off to his mates : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpmXAoc3dew And again : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_6IjnCcU1Y All the latter feature relatively "mundane" cars, though I grant you the S2000 has gained a reputation for being spikey in extremis, yet in these instances they're driven by morons showing off to their mates or other drivers in their convoy, with little or no understanding of what they're doing, what they're driving, or indeed the roads they're driving on. This was exactly the scenario when I was a passenger with another clueless, inept moron in 996 GT2. He could have killed both of us, and the Headlines would no doubt have read "Two die in Porsche supercar. Two males died when a Porsche supercar crashed yesterday, the £120K German supercar tagged the widowmaker because of its fearsome reputation, blah blah blah" The car had nothing to do with the accident, the crash was solely down to the idiot driving it (probably showing off) and his inability to read the road and appreciate just how quickly the car could accelerate in such a short space of time. I'd already spent 12 months driving my 996 GT2, so I had a pretty good idea what a GT2 was capable of, and what I was experiencing in the moments (5-7 seconds) prior to the crash, told me two things, either the individual at the wheel was a driving god, or we were going to have the mother of all shunts, and on the basis of the previous 20 minutes as a passenger with him, I KNEW we were going to crash... so much so I quite literally hunkered down in my seat and braced myself for what I guessed would be a huge impact at some point. If you'd tried the same cretinous manoeuvre in Transit van or indeed a Trans Am, the end result would've been the same. You can't beat the laws of physics. Whilst the crash shocked me, I think I was more shocked that in the immediate aftermath of the shunt, the driver alleged he "didn't know what had happened" !! Duh !!

Can you imagine being car salesman trying to flog these back in the day doing a test drive with billy know it all I'm a driving God

Cactussed said: Have any owners on here bought a 996tt and removed the driveshaft to make it RWD? Wondering if that gets you close to a budget GT2 experience if you add in an LSD? Not quite the same but I did for my C4S. Same process for the turbo. Make the steering come alive and removes significant weight. Given where GT2's and Turbo's are price wise I would say a 2WD turbo with nicely done suspension and a bit of weight saving/remap would get you 90% of the way for 50% of less of the cost. I can recommend 9E for the 2WD conversion.

A friend lent me a 996GT2 for a weekend back in the day. It was standard except for a track geo and remap. I thoroughly enjoyed the driving experience. Not a car that you can safety explore the limits of on the road but nor are many other others. It just required smooth inputs and an understanding of the potential outcomes of deploying it large power reserves. It was entirely predictable. Lovely car

My turbo is with 9e for a bit of GT fairy dust. They can delete AWD easily on gen 1 997 C4S as it has same awd system as 996 turbo. Also can do this on 997 turbo both gens and 997.2 C4S. 9ff which is Porsche modifier in Europe do a AWD delete kit that makes the ECU think your cars a GT2. I may do this mod when my front diff fails. On 101k miles now. Nothing has failed in 7 years. Nothing

I had a 996GT2 new back in 02, thought it was great car it was my daily use car also back then as well as track days. Kept it 2 years and 14k miles it had a mild GEO setup on it. One of the best driving 911s I have owned.

APOLO1 said: I had a 996GT2 new back in 02, thought it was great car it was my daily use car also back then as well as track days. Kept it 2 years and 14k miles it had a mild GEO setup on it. One of the best driving 911s I have owned. Note aero kitted 996 Turbo owner muttering "I wish I'd spent the extra on a GT2 now" under his breath as he fights arm aching understeer and "supertanker in a heavy swell", levels of roll behind

There's a guy on 911UK who actually did a 997 GT2 RS conversion with all the unobtainium lightweight carpets, door cards, carbon wings. I've asked him to weigh her. I'll be stunned if it weighs less than 1550-1600kgs. If you want GT2 I'd just buy a GT2 its probably cheaper in long run than modding. Clutch too heavy for me in GT2 and also currently all GT2 models about £40k over priced IMO just based on the drive. Its very quiet woofly experience which I personally really like as I can concentrate on keeping on road rather than racket car's engine is making. The engine almost moans rather than roars. More for the mature driver. Not much will catch you round a track in a GT2.

IMI A said: Can you imagine being car salesman trying to flog these back in the day doing a test drive with billy know it all I'm a driving God Slightly off topic, but I bought my old TVR T350C from Toby (the salesman) at the Melton Mowbray dealer. Toby was killed shortly after during a test drive whilst in the passenger seat. https://www.am-online.com/news/2006/10/26/tvr-deat...

Very very sad. It does make me wonder how they let anyone buy these cars without some sort of higher driving license. In this case the driver was not even driving without due care and attention and still curtains.

Slippydiff said: Note aero kitted 996 Turbo owner muttering "I wish I'd spent the extra on a GT2 now" under his breath as he fights arm aching understeer and "supertanker in a heavy swell", levels of roll behind I came from a 996 Turbo to the 996GT2, the steering and suspension were a complete revelation over the 996tt, also the GT2 felt so fast in a line, bit of set up to help with the stock setup understeer and it was fine.

IMI A said: Very very sad. It does make me wonder how they let anyone buy these cars without some sort of higher driving license. In this case the driver was not even driving without due care and attention and still curtains. I think in the case of the 996 gt2 the first buyers were unaware that it would be quite unforgiving and it hadn't gained it's reputation yet the people who I mentioned early on in this thread who were killed by the gt2 had their accidents within the first 6 months of owning their cars

I think thats the risk if you're not from air cooled background or no amateur race and track experience . All i used hear my father and uncles say was watch out in the wet and they never tracked. GT2. 500bhp. Engine in back. RWD. Fine going bananas on track but on a road. Well on roads around me

Well if this next few months goes to plan, I'll be in the market for a 996T so fingers crossed.

Anyone know of this car which appeared on eBay recently? Cat C, blown engine etc. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/255763145384?_trkparms=... Edited by TudorSantos on Friday 7th October 16:03

TudorSantos said: Anyone know of this car which appeared on eBay recently? Cat C, blown engine etc. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/255763145384?_trkparms=... Edited by TudorSantos on Friday 7th October 16:03 I was discussing this car with another forum member. The advert reads like "run like hell". How different is the GT2 engine from the Turbo? Then again, one could buy it with eyes wide open, fix it and keep it for a decade while using it.

At twenty years old and some mileage, when does one consider a rebuild of a Mezger? Could be a cheap ticket into a GT2…

Vendor would do well to get £25k TBH. @ £50k he's been smoking far too much wacky backy and is delusional. Be a lovely track hack for someone inc me but that engine could easily be a £25k plus VAT to rebuild. Maybe more actually as parts very dear nowadays.

Desert Dragon said: Vendor would do well to get £25k TBH. @ £50k he's been smoking far too much wacky backy and is delusional. Be a lovely track hack for someone inc me but that engine could easily be a £25k plus VAT to rebuild. Maybe more actually as parts very dear nowadays. When I has my engine rebuilt it was just shy of 20k and that was 10 years ago, so i recon your bang on the money.

stuckmojo said: How different is the GT2 engine from the Turbo? It's identical apart from the turbos and the mapping.

TudorSantos said: Anyone know of this car which appeared on eBay recently? Cat C, blown engine etc. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/255763145384?_trkparms=... Edited by TudorSantos on Friday 7th October 16:03 Saw that. One photo, 5 word description for a £50k price tag with a back story

nebpor said: It's identical apart from the turbos and the mapping. And the intercoolers, and the exhaust. Both are from the X50 (450hp) option that was available on the 996 Turbo (and standard on the Turbo S)

FWIW it’s very simple to map a turbo to 500hp. What you don’t get is the same feel of power as a GT2. I drove a 997 GT2 and was staggered with the difference to my own 996 turbo. I was used to a fair bit of boost and had owned the car a few years by that time, but the GT2 was an incredible experience. A step up.

I have nothing to add apart from I want a GT2. Thanks.

ringweekends said: I have nothing to add apart from I want a GT2. Thanks. That's just greed! French clutter and a normally aspirated Mezger clearly not enough then

unclepezza said: Had mine now for just over two years, bloody love it. Came from 80/90's RWD cossie and a run of RS turbos before getting the Porsche bug. Been lucky to have several boxsters, 968 CS, 993C4S and a 993 (430bhp) turbo over the last 15 years, none of these cars come close to the GT2. It really is a drivers car, you have to pay attention behind the wheel when you want to press on, but equally you can do the commute in it if you wanted to. To me it feels like driving a boxster with the performance of the 993 turbo, very agile in a way the 993 turbo can only dream of and its a small cabin by todays standards the 997 and 991 cars feel so much bigger inside and you loose some of the intimacy. My car was on original tyres when i got it a couple years back on 12k, tread was still at 6mm but they were shot and had gone well past their best, and new set of N4 tyres transformed it. Understanding the car is part of the enjoyment of ownership, tyre temps and age or important plus letting gearbox oil etc get to temp as once it's all warmed up it's so fluid and the speed can build incredibly quickly. It is a very difficult car to replace, with the newer 997 and RS versions having set sail. Think "mistress" is a better moniker for the car, sure it will punish you when you are bad but reward you when you are good...... mine when I purchased it: and now 2 years later ( and yes I have kept all the original parts, and yes the new parts are all original to ;-)) Edited by unclepezza on Sunday 16th November 16:05 @unclepezza I just bought your old GT2

That’s a great car a good few years back a few of us would meet up for a drive if a I remember it is fully PPF

10 years on and i'm still enjoying the GT2. 16 years of ownership now.

also had mine 16 years and still loving it

PTT said: 10 years on and i'm still enjoying the GT2. 16 years of ownership now. The stock wheels have aged really well but did you never consider trying some lighter wheels, those bad boys weigh 51.6kg unsprung some modern lighter rims would make it feel much nicer ?

I have both to be honest I do use both

The only ones i consider trying are the mkll wheels, like on KAL's GT2.

PTT said: 10 years on and i'm still enjoying the GT2. 16 years of ownership now. Love these back in the day my fave 996 and even better looking today. Awesome 911.

Congrats, really enjoyed the car when I had it, as mentioned a group of us would meet up regularly. Had I not moved to the US I wouldn’t have sold it. Last time I saw it, it was on JZM’s site for sale. Enjoy. RS4Magic said: @unclepezza I just bought your old GT2

possibly the best 996 GT2 out there... https://www.pistonheads.com/buy/listing/21082761

Jones the cat said: possibly the best 996 GT2 out there... https://www.pistonheads.com/buy/listing/21082761 Not a Clubsport, not a mk2…

PRO5T said: Not a Clubsport, not a mk2 Quite. Unless of course you're actually buying one to to drive ... Then the lack of cage, Perlon seats, annoying harnesses, 18hp and some spangly wheels means diddly squat. But being as this is the PH Porsche forum, future values and resale spec, are now waaaaay more important than actually buying a car and getting behind the wheel and driving/enjoying it. Bought this one for £34,500 back in 2009-10... Epic road cars, all the more so with some minor fettling.

Are you having a bad weekend H? Your posting across the forums has been somewhat… combative? Hope all is well. (Without resorting to “ U ok hun?”)

The buyer of the 997 GT3 picked it up last week. I won't lie I'm a bit gutted, it was such a good car but it was the right decision. Just feels a bit crap losing an amazing car just for financial gain. But then, financial gain helps in so many different aspects in life it's hard to chalk it down to misery. I'm probably more annoyed I missed out on the perfect spec GT4 while waiting for the deal to complete then anything, something will turn up but with a ring trip booked for early next month I've put myself under unnecessary pressure. Unless lapping a Defender is what my mate had in mind when I said he can come along for the ride!

PRO5T said: The buyer of the 997 GT3 picked it up last week. I won't lie I'm a bit gutted, it was such a good car but it was the right decision. Just feels a bit crap losing an amazing car just for financial gain. But then, financial gain helps in so many different aspects in life it's hard to chalk it down to misery. I'm probably more annoyed I missed out on the perfect spec GT4 while waiting for the deal to complete then anything, something will turn up but with a ring trip booked for early next month I've put myself under unnecessary pressure. Unless lapping a Defender is what my mate had in mind when I said he can come along for the ride! At least you know the Armco will come off second best in an "altercation" with it in the Defender ...

Jones the cat said: possibly the best 996 GT2 out there... https://www.pistonheads.com/buy/listing/21082761 such a good looking car. Same colour as the 997 I wrecked (luckily mine was a CS, otherwise you would be missing out on all my awesome posts ). 180k wow, it is not like it is a super low mileage car.

PRO5T said: Are you having a bad weekend H? Your posting across the forums has been somewhat combative? Hope all is well. (Without resorting to U ok hun? ) All good here thanks C, thanks for asking/your concern. A certain individual continues to post advert links in 12, 16, 20 year old "dead" threads and it's getting somewhat tedious. I did suggest the individual starts his own thread, as judging by the comments made by others, plenty on here would appreciate such a thread. But of course he won't/can't because he's been banned (I assume permanently) and thus shouldn't be posting on here. Period. Clearly the posting rules that apply to the rest of us don't apply to him. Sold your old motor and got yourself a new one yet ? Edited by Slippydiff on Monday 21st September 00:43

MDL111 said: Jones the cat said: possibly the best 996 GT2 out there... https://www.pistonheads.com/buy/listing/21082761 such a good looking car. Same colour as the 997 I wrecked (luckily mine was a CS, otherwise you would be missing out on all my awesome posts ). 180k wow, it is not like it is a super low mileage car. This red one was advertised online last week. It sold within 30 mins.

MDL111 said: Jones the cat said: possibly the best 996 GT2 out there... https://www.pistonheads.com/buy/listing/21082761 such a good looking car. Same colour as the 997 I wrecked (luckily mine was a CS, otherwise you would be missing out on all my awesome posts ). 180k wow, it is not like it is a super low mileage car. This red one was advertised online last week. It sold within 30 mins.

996 GT2 'Clubsport Business Class' Lovely huh. https://www.pistonheads.com/buy/listing/21171431

Jones the cat said: 996 GT2 'Clubsport Business Class' Lovely huh. https://www.pistonheads.com/buy/listing/21171431 Lonman Gumball rally spec. The car that really switched me on to 911's. Just incredible machines.

almost perfect, would prefer without the AC and cd/radio to save weight