36 captured repliesPartial discussion capture · Source accounts, not a confirmed diagnosis
THIS DISCUSSION / SOURCE-DERIVED OVERVIEW
Discussion summary
YOUR RESEARCHAnother IMS tale of woe...
Leading reported evidence
Replace i did read in the archives
Performed · outcome unconfirmed
No successful repair reported for this finding.
0
Reported fixes
0
Unsuccessful attempts
1
Discussions
Read evidence and context
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that performed work without a confirmed outcome
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Performed · outcome unconfirmed
I did read in the archives that the bearing was changed in late 2005 models.
Leading evidence: 'Replace i did read in the archives' (no explicit attributable resolution; this is a reported action or suggestion). Across 1 matching discussions, the most frequently mentioned possible cause is 'chicken or the egg' (1 discussions; 0 report identifying it and 1 suggest it). The most frequently discussed action is 'Adjust bill' (1 discussions). For that action, 0 discussions report a resolution and 0 report an unsuccessful attempt. No action has an explicit, attributable resolution report under the current rules. These are forum reports and suggestions, not a confirmed diagnosis.
Source reports, not a diagnosis or a success probability. Counts refer to discussions and can overlap.
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that performed work without a confirmed outcome
1
Discussions that contain suggestions
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Performed · outcome unconfirmed · Original poster
The IMS was replaced at Music City Porsche & Audi approx May 5, 2012.
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that performed work without a confirmed outcome
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Performed · outcome unconfirmed
I found "metal shards" (albeit to use the term loosely) in the oil filter housing from my 2008 Cayman S when I changed the oil after just 750 miles from new.
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that performed work without a confirmed outcome
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Performed · outcome unconfirmed · Original poster
I guess that's not done any more - they used all the old bits on mine and, $8512 of labor later, it was back in place.
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that contain suggestions
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Suggestion
My dealer often forgets until I remind them and they adjust the bill.
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Suggestion · Original poster
He said that when this issue first came up he was working at a dealership and they would be shipped a complete engine with headers and all, and would just bolt it in and reconnect - a very quick process.
Discussions that performed work without a confirmed outcome
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Performed · outcome unconfirmed
I found "metal shards" (albeit to use the term loosely) in the oil filter housing from my 2008 Cayman S when I changed the oil after just 750 miles from new.
Counts describe captured discussions, not unique people or a diagnosis. Author identities are not reliably stored. Exact duplicate evidence is counted once across matching discussions; one discussion counts at most once per action/state. Multiple repairs reported together remain a combination. Suggestions and failed attempts do not establish a fix. Matches cover whole discussions and can include related faults, model variants and incomplete threads.
36 eligible posts · 0 unverified posts · 1 discussions match the subject in their title or opening post.
6SpeedOnline: 1 discussions
0 evidence records excluded for query context · 0 excluded by outcome qualification · 0 adjusted by outcome qualification.
0 acknowledgements have no verified action link; they do not establish a repair result.
Generation: 20261027T003124Z · outcome-qualification-6. Deterministic extraction; no AI model inference. How we use sources
Anyone know when the engine bearing housing changed to the type where the case has to be separated to replace the IMS? I have a late 2005 M96 engine and the car's VIN is not included in the recall settlement, even though it is a 2005. So I am concerned that if something goes wrong with the bearing the engine will have to be disassembled to repair it,instead of just popping in a new one.
I did read in the archives that the bearing was changed in late 2005 models. But the case?
Also if it's the newer case I can't proactively replace ($$) with an L/N.
Thanks for any info!
There's a thread on rennlist where owners tried to discern the crossover point based on engine numbers. I suspect if you're not on the recall list you have the larger non-serviceable bearing, but really I don't think you can be sure until you look.
Quote:
Failure rate on the later bearing has been less than 1% suggesting a very low probabilty it will fail if the engine is properly maintained. Keep in mind the guys making the most noise about failed IMS bearings are the guys who make their living replacing them.
I am hoping to find the time to visit the tech in the next two days.
It was definitely drivable, no oil leak whatsoever, and not even idling roughly.
The Porsche technicians are pretty young, and I wonder if they have seen any of these. It's all recent model cars at that dealership.
Anyway, will let you know what information I will glean from my visit.
It is certainly a learning experience.
Should have got the Hans Mezger designed 996 turbo
Quote:
Have to admit that sounds a bit uncharacteristic of an IMS(B) failure.
You didn't say where the "metal shards" were found. I found "metal shards" (albeit to use the term loosely) in the oil filter housing from my 2008 Cayman S when I changed the oil after just 750 miles from new. But this was normal metal (mostly aluminum) metal shedding by a new engine. A subsequent oil change about 750 miles later found hardly any trace -- and not enough to show up in a pic -- of any metal in the filter oil. At around 2K miles when I had the oil changed again this time at the dealer while we didn't bother to capture the filter oil the engine was running better and better and even at 2200 miles was running just fine.
(It ran fine even after a '89 Volvo crossed over 2 lanes of traffic to smash into the side of the Cayman which rendered the car a pile of speed yellow scrap metal.)
The 996 Turbo engine is not bullet proof and it costs upwards of $40K to replace should the need arise.
Anyhow, I'm anxiously awaiting to read what you learn from your next visit with the techs.
Take lots of pics of any engine hardware.
It would have been so much better to take to an Indy..Dealerships always just say "replace" and find quickest scape goat..Indy will usually give you more info & go deeper into the issue.
I find it hard to believe the LN IMS failed..also failures usually happen to low mileage cars
Quote:
The IMS was replaced at Music City Porsche & Audi approx May 5, 2012.
I have had my Porsche's serviced there since 1994 until they closed last year. Andrew Heath was incredible and a good reason to own these cars. He retired unfortunately. I haven't been able to find a serial number of that IMS in my records.
Thy showed my the remains of the IMS- the bearings were totally extruded. Here is a picture of the flange part, it looks pretty chewed up...
Thank you for your offer.
I decided to just bite the bullitt and have them replace it with a factory rebuilt engine from Germany.
With everything in little pieces in their workshop I just felt I didn't have the energy to deal with negotiating shipping it elsewhere and starting again.
Will let you know how this works out.
Got it back from dealership.
Runs fantastic and sounds great ( different acoustics for some reason)
Only disappointment is dealership did not credit me PCA discount on parts despite promising they would
Of course, once I was driving I just put it all behind me.
Running in a new engine, and plan another 140K on this one.
No point selling it now.
Maybe add a coupe down the road and keep this for sunny weather...
Went back, and it turns out they did credit me the PCA discount. They just don't list it as a subtraction of the parts total like they did in the past.
The German factory sourced rebuilt engine and all associated parts came to $11205.....add 30 hours labor plus other stuff needing work...
This actually compared favorably to quotes I got elsewhere .
Add the 2 year unlimited miles warranty and I feel OK about the whole spiel.
A friend I talked to today had a similar disaster with his 996 turbo, and paid an apparently similar amount at an Indi but waited 3 months to get it back.
Somebody else said it happened to a 997..
I thought the turbo models didn't have this issue?
Oh, and did I mention it drives like a brand new car?
There is no substitute ( for under $80K )
"The Mezger engine has an IMS but the design is different than the M96/M97 so you don't see IMS bearing issues on the turbos and GT cars."
Plain bearing - Similar to LNE IMS Solution...
Quote:
While the Turbo engine doesn't have the chain driven IMS and its sealed bearing -- the Turbo engine has a gear driven lay shaft that runs in plain bearings -- the lay shaft gear can loosen or the key that "locks" the shaft to the gear wheel can come loose -- and if either of these happen the effect is comparable to the N/A engine and its IMS bearing failing.
Any engine has a number of failure modes. The engine is only as good as its weakest part. This can be an IMS bearing, a lay shaft key, the bolts holding the gear to the lay shaft, a rod bolt, a rod, a chain link, etc.
I don't know what the percentage of Turbo engines have had this failure but the number of Turbo engines is quite small.
The Turbo engine can also experience a coolant hose fitting coming loose. These are aluminum and epoxied into the block. It seems tracked cars are more likely to suffer this problem but as the car accumulates miles and time who knows? So far (knock wood) my 2003 Turbo with over 156K miles has not had this problem. I don't lay awake at night worrying about it though.
The problem doesn't ruin the engine but it is an engine out job to address and once the engine is out all 6 or 7 of these fittings need to be redone.
A friend of mine had to have his turbo 996 engine rebuilt, but he said they had dialed in way too much boost ( 750hp!! ).
It took months to be rebuilt at an Indie and was quite expensive. When I told hime what I paid he said I would not have saved much by going elsewhere .
He tracks the car with extensive modifications.
Interestingly, with less power he has improved his lap times presumably because it has smoother more predictable performance.
I realize this would be out of my price range - no track time for me. ( heck - it's a convertible anyway...)
Quote:
The Turbo engine is a pretty robust engine and can handle extra power. But as your friend found out there's a limit.
The Turbo engine came from the 1999+ GT3 which itself was derived from the Le Mans winning engine developed for the 911 GT. This engine was fitted with titanium rods and IIRC its power output was in the 500hp range.
So I'd hazard a guess that if one pushes one of these Turbo engines to the 500hp level he probably needs to think about some better rods. At least.
Quote:
A great outcome and seems very reasonable compared to some figures I've seen. I guess we'll never know if it was the chicken or the egg.
Best of luck with it!
Best to check and confirm with LN but if I remember correctly the warranty on the retrofit is two years/24,000 miles. Also, for the warranty to be effective I think the installation had to be registered with LN so you might want to check that too.
Thank you again for this information.
From what I was told this was factory rebuilt and I guess it could have been sitting in storage somewhere.
It certainly looks new.
Anyway, I am not getting ulcers over this - will just drive it and enjoy it.
From the info I now have, will look at replacing the IMS at 60k if I still have the car.
Quote:
Or...spend the extra dough and have an oil-fed bearing (e.g., LN Engineering/Flat 6 Innovations/Jake Raby IMS Solution) installed that alleviates ANY possibility of an IMS failure. Expensive, yes...but MUCH cheaper than an engine replacement (or even a Turbo version 996).
Quote:
FYI, an IMS retrofit still uses a balled-bearing (albeit improved ceramic hybrid ball bearings) and may still fail. Warranty of a retrofit is 2 years or 24,000 miles with a recommended replacement at every 75,000 miles or 6 years. If you want true piece of mind, you need the "IMS Solution," which uses a plain (no more *****), oil-fed bearing.
The dealership gave me a 2 year unlimited miles warranty - by word of mouth, for what its worth.
I decided to do an early oil change ( today ) at my Indie at 2600 miles on the rebuild.
My technician said he found it interesting that I received a short block.
He said that when this issue first came up he was working at a dealership and they would be shipped a complete engine with headers and all, and would just bolt it in and reconnect - a very quick process.
They said it was to keep labor down.
I guess that's not done any more - they used all the old bits on mine and, $8512 of labor later, it was back in place.
Parts were $11000 for the engine, I believe.
They then did things like alignments etc. and the final total , with tax , was $24500 odd
I just noticed your comment on this thread. I'm current going thru bore scoring issues on my 997.1S
I was think of and spoke to the gues at Renegade about getting a Renegade LS-3 conversion... the problem is they won't pass county Emissions testing.
They are even the ones that told me this... unfortunate... as I heard a lot of good things about Renegade
Quote:
I just noticed your comment on this thread. I'm current going thru bore scoring issues on my 997.1S
I was think of and spoke to the gues at Renegade about getting a Renegade LS-3 conversion... the problem is they won't pass county Emissions testing.
They are even the ones that told me this... unfortunate... as I heard a lot of good things about Renegade
Quote:
When you add up the price of the LS motor and all of the things you have to change in order to get it to work, you're in the neighborhood of getting an FSI bulletproof performance engine.
Man I'm sorry for your troubles. Been away from 6speed for a while. But read to the point of "had a tune" and stopped reading. I've had my 997 turbo for 14 years now. Only mod I did was a Europipe many years ago. Tunes have always scared me. From when my car was under warranty, then extended and the ensuing years of no warranty. To me, no tuner can out think and out do the manufacturers engineers. I know there'll be all those that will say (including the tuners) that there are thousands of tuned cars out there and they are safe. But to me, they've always been ticking time bombs. Good luck as you get this sorted out.
This is a source reference. Confirm exact model applicability in the original material.
