You Can?t Have Too Many Buying Advice Threads (a Buying Advice Thread)!

Hi folks, (Please feel free to skip the following ponderous preamble and go straight to bolded section/pics.) Foreword: I’m tentatively dipping my toes into the 996 waters as a potential replacement for our second car—an obnoxiously practical Honda Fit dorkmobile. The 911 would be a light-duty daily driver/errand runner/joy rides/occasional short-distance road trips. While I will surely miss the Fit’s fuel economy and adult-cow-sized cargo capacity, our other car is a RAV4 Prime which covers those needs and I think I’m ready to know what it feels like to own a car that inspires lusty feelings. Other cars being considered in the $20K-ish range, which are more practical but less desirable to me than a 996, are a (still somewhat dorky) MK7/7.5 GTI, and some of the less awful EVs from recent years (Ioniq 5, Polestar 2, Volvo XC40, etc.) We have solar power which gives the EVs a pragmatic edge, soulless as they may be. I arrived at the 996 because: major bargain, and I think they look awesome, and they have working airbags and guzzle considerably less gas than my actual childhood dream car, the 928. I’ve driven at least two examples of every car mentioned above, including some 996s. TIME-CONSCIOUS PEOPLE START HERE : I’m going to check out a couple of 996.1 cars this week. Both $20K. Both 1999, both Tiptronics in case the wife needs a backup when the RAV is in the shop. First is a base Carrera, silver/black, one owner, at a used car dealership with an acceptable reputation. 105K miles, excellent cosmetics. No comprehensive service history, but a recent, somewhat superficial clean bill of health from the well-regarded Autowerkes Inc here in SoCal (see pics.) Second is a Carrera 4, rare gold/blue/black, 143K miles but with a comprehensive service history (binder of receipts.) I’m not particularly drawn to the AWD myself—would rather lose the extra weight, understeer and recoup some MPG, but that colour combo is admittedly pretty sweet. I’m not concerned about IMS stuff for either of these, nor am I terribly concerned about bore scoring since these cars have already asserted their longevity (as far as I can tell…) Thoughts? Feelings? Opinions? I want ‘em all! Thanks!

So a bit to unpack. So first and foremost any repairs on this car are going to be expensive. A good ppi will be worth it. You can mitigate repair costs if you are handy with a wrench but even so parts have an obscene markup (think 5-10x comparable Honda parts). With that in mind you should probably budget 5k for unexpected repairs. I'd also take a look at those service records. If all that ever happened was routine maintenance without any major problems that one is a keeper. If the RMS has been changed 4 times. Prepare for that to happen again (my cars service record showed a particular oil tube was frequently replaced and....surprise I had to replace it after 2k miles) Both those cars are higher mileage examples so check to see if they have had serpentine belt, water pump, brakes and other mileage appropriate service done. Bonus if they refreshed the suspension. Make sure the CV boots look good the good news is the car is super easy to work on once you get it off the ground. Any ppi should come with a interrogation of the computer (DME report). This will give you an idea how harshly the car has been driven. Find out if it was tracked and if so how much. Bore scoring can be an issue with these cars so check the exhaust for abnormal carbon buildup and listen for a ticking or slap sound on cold startup (a good price should scope the cylinders) Don't let any of this scare you. I bought a C4 cab a couple of years ago for 20k and it's been an awesome experience. M

So much good info in here—thanks for taking the time. I keep coming across the “$5K for unexpected repairs” line which means there must be some truth to it. It’s ultimately not a ton of money to sink into something that should otherwise maintain its value, but it’s still a bit of a bummer. That said, the higher mileage gold C4 (with the 3” binder of service records and receipts) was definitely very well maintained from the sounds of it. It just got a new water pump and thermostat a coupla months ago and is (allegedly) in peak form. Great advice about looking out for patterns like multiple RMS replacements—I will keep that in mind! The C2 is a bit more mysterious. It’s at a used car dealership, apparently a one-owner car and it does look immaculate for having 100K miles on it (which suggests it was well cared for but who knows for sure…) I would insist on a PPI for that one and walk if the dealership isn’t cooperative. Anyway, thanks again for chiming in. I’ll report back once I’ve actually seen the cars in person. 🤞

This is a tough one. The fact that the cars have survived to this point doesn't change the IMS bearing or bore score issues. It makes them more likely to occur, not less. The 996 is as lovely as any 911, but it has documented issues so well known that forests of trees have been cut down to record them. A low price or high mileage that don't address these don't change the metrics. Buyer beware.

Which one has the options you’re looking for? Someone wants comfort seats, others sport,,,etc,,,, Whatever you do, get a ppi performed. If the selllers say nah bruh,,,,move on. There’s a ton of cars available! But yeah, put aside some $$$ for repair/replacement parts labor hours. Good luck pics just because Factory grey on grey on grey Black 4 spoke steering wheel, mats, shift **** and boot. Must have cup holder

Whoops, double post!

Quotes source post: 19571140

I hear you, but I thought the earliest 996.1 cars were the least susceptible of the bunch? Not that I would conflate that with total immunity, but that makes it a bit more of an acceptable risk for me. But yeah, if I�m adding $5K for unforeseen repairs and another $5K for an IMS replacement (Tiptronic tax), then rationally speaking a 997 would probably be a smarter buy, wouldn�t it? And that�s kind of a moot point since that�s out of my budget, unfortunately. :/

Quotes source post: 19571172

Good point re: options, although these cars are kind of famously underappointed and I�m relatively ok with that. The two that I�ve test-driven so far were almost comically no-frills but still at least marginally more comfortable than a Cambodian prison (from what I�ve read.) That said, the C4 has an updated head unit and a fairly nice all leather navy blue interior. Counts for something! And thanks for the pics. Every pic helps.

Quotes source post: 19571185

There�s a general consensus that the 1999s are the best of the 996s. The later models all have their oddities: MY2000s suffer from a flawed cylinder head casting and are prone to cracking. 3.6L engines are more susceptible to bore scoring. The 997 is is just as likely, if not more, to suffer from bore scoring. Now that these cars are 20+ years old, there�s a wealth of published information about all problems you will encounter. I recommend you watch PCA�s videos on bore scoring and IMS bearings to give yourself a better idea of what you�re getting yourself into. You Tube You Tube EDIT: Oh yeah, alongside these issues, you also have to worry about Cam Deviations, too. Knowing what I know now, if I were looking to purchase a 996, I would look for a 1999 with a history of frequent oil changes using quality oil. I think the oil change frequency plays a huge role in the longevity of your engine.

Quotes source post: 19571257

Thanks for that! I�d read a lot about those issues (less so the cam deviations) and narrowed my search to the �99 MY accordingly, but these videos are an eye opener. I�m going to try to keep a level head about the risks and try not to let myself be spooked into buying one of the newer, safer, less exciting options in my original post.

I like the one with maintenance records. At least you know what has been done and when. The other you will have to baseline and will (possibly) cost you more in the long run.

Quotes source post: 19571275

You've gotten some good general advice on this thread, but what specific questions do you have?

Quotes source post: 19571185

You have the same issues with the 997 as the 996, which means you will have to budget for the same "bullet proofing" enhancements/replacements with the IMSB, AOS, water pump and bore scoring prevention procedures. The servicing will cost you about the same, but your purchase price in the 997 will be substabtially higher. Good news is if you buy a "good" 996 or 997, you can bullet proof it pretty easily. Comes down to which model tickles your fancy more and how much you want to pay for a purchase. My preference is the 996 over the 997. Yours may be different. The 996 has aged well with a classic look. Not to mention it can be dressed up with aero and/or wheels and dressed down in base model form and it works for any era. Same can be said for its handling.

Quotes source post: 19571257

Unless you have valid proof of this, I wouldn't bother stating this nonsense... The 997 block is the same as the 996 , as are the crank rods, heads, cams and intake manifolds. The only differences between the 997 engine and the 996 is different accessory routing, intake airbox and exhaust routing. Yes the rear main seal and clutch were revised on the 997, but those parts are now the current service replacements for the 996 through your Porsche dealer. intermediate shafts and shaft bearing can also fail. This is usually a slow process and is preceded by an IMS leak. If it isn't fixed at the first sign of a problem, it can easily result in valves hitting pistons and an engine replacement down the line. Being intelligent and dealing with issues when they occur and not waiting can easily prevent a major issue down the line. so, no these cars are not ticking time bombs as some of the vendors make them seem. The bore scoring seems to have jumped up since the oldest care is now 20+ years and its not just the 996, 997, Boxsters and Caymans, where is the hard proof that the 997 is more prone vs the 996? We all know there are updates to parts and some designated 997 (parts) Porsche did drop the ball on the 996 but we as owners know this when we repair them,

Remember you can always convert the C4 to a C2 for quite cheap. The car doesn't care if the driveshaft and diff are there, so if a C4 strikes your fancy but you don't want to deal with the compromised drivetrain, it's a pretty easy job and easily reversible for resale. Also I'm a sucker for gold cars so..

Quotes source post: 19571864

Good question! I guess I was wondering which of these two cars most of you guys would choose, and whether the extra 45k miles on the gold C4 would be compensated for by the service records, whether the C4 would get less love than the C2, stuff like that. And the question I still need to answer for myself is whether I am willing to live with the many compromises inherent in owning an older 911 (fewer creature comforts, worse fuel economy, repair bills, less cargo room, etc.) in the pursuit of beauty, exciting driving dynamics and the fulfillment of a childhood dream. Basically I have to convince myself not to care that a GTI or one of those EVs would be a significantly more practical choice and get over whatever guilt-adjacent feelings I might have about that. But I realize this isn�t something anyone else can realistically be expected to answer for me.

Quotes source post: 19571185

Yes, the earlier 996s with double row bearings appear to fail less frequently, but you should really look at this differently. The market is telling you to beware. The market puts a lower price on the 996 because it has several well known flaws, one of which (the IMS bearing) could literally wipe out any value in the car. The price is where it is because those of us who can afford to alleviate all the issues, find it acceptable. It's why we all suggest a bottom-up bore scoping and are willing to pay more for a car that has had all the work done to ameliorate the known issues. I don't think there are any "bargains" in the 911 marketplace. My own view is that any 911 from any year that sells for less than $40K, will require a value of repairs that is at least the difference between that and the selling price. Obviously both your options begin with a $2, and you may get lucky, but you asked... One thing you might consider that could help with the budget is to buy the car from a Porsche or other dealer who can finance the car for you. Then you can put some of the cash aside for future repairs. I would also spend the money to purchase a CarFax before making any offer.

Quotes source post: 19571130

Minimum �$5K� for deferred/preventative maintenance. Unexpected repairs are a completely different matter. The price of properly maintaining a 996 reflects the original MSRP not today�s depreciated bargain.

Quotes source post: 19572155

I'm on my fourth Porsche. When it comes to the "many compromises" of owning one of these cars, I'm happy to explain. The 911 is like a drug, once you get a dose, you're hooked at the Breaking Bad level. It's an expensive habit, but enjoyable nonetheless. However, if I'm totally truthful with you, I'll give it to you plain and straight. If you're looking for a "practical" daily driver, this is not your car. This is weekend man therapy on wheels. If you want a practical daily driver, then get a Toyota. If you want a thrill ride that comes at a significant cost, then there is NO substitute. (((coughs)) P O R S C H E!

Johnny, there is nothing practical about buying a 20 year old Porsche. It will cost you money to keep it running, regardless of the price you pay for it. If you are smart amd patient, you can find one whose previous owner took care of the bores and did all the service work that should have been performed. Sit down, here is what it's going to cost you assuming you have NO DIY skills and you pay for parts and labor. Bullet proof the engine. ($8-12k) UAOS, IMSB, RMS, Clutch, flywheel, water pump, oil cooler, fuel Injectors, ignition coils, spark plugs, MAF, oxy sensors, oil sensor, and other basic refresh items. Suspension, brakes & tires. ($5-12k) Exhaust. ($8-10k) These number don't count any "pretty" stuff like exterior and interior upgrades. Nor does it count things like coolant leaks and power steering leaks which ultimately happen. the key is to bullet proof the engine first. Then take the next few years and build out a plan to address suspension, brakes, tires, exhaust, exterior and interior items in an affordable manner. Just my two sents. I have owned my 996.2 for 22 years. Will never get rid of it. Glad I serviced the hell out of it over the years. I can decide at the drop of a hat to drive it from Chicago to whatever state I want for a long trip w/o loosing sleep. But there is a cost to keeping the car in excellent shape.

Quotes source post: 19572158

And yet the 996 poll for IMS issues says otherwise here?. Much like the 964, the 996 has a stigma attached it.

Yeah, I think the Rennlist marketing machine (Bdron) was working overtime over the last 4 years on the 99. they all have their quirks. Part of the charm of the 996 variations.

Is there really a consensus on 996.1 head crack prevalence by year? I don�t think I�ve ever read that before.

LN, FSI amd Hartech would have more complete data. Same with Len Hoffman. I believe, Hoffman has a writeup on their Hamheads website discussing the common failures. Don't remember if he discusses years. But he is the "head" expert so he would know. I'll attach a link if I can find one. here it is. http://newsite.hamheads.com/porsche/

Something to think about. After 20+ years we now know the issues and solutions/prevention. Back in the day we didn't. So a number of things went wrong as a result. Good news is the 996/M96 is pretty easy to bullet proof today. Funny thing is the 997, 991, 992, 718 etc, are all going thru the same exercise today. We just have the benefit as 996 owners to have 20+ years of history to know how to easily solve for the issues. It will be awhile before the late model porsche owners identify the issues and solutions.

Just wanted to take a second to thank you all for your feedback. There’s some very sobering advice in this thread and it’s giving me pause for thought. I’m no stranger to ‘vintage’ things and the occasional/constant aggravations that arise when they inevitably break or develop quirks. That’s part of the deal. Admittedly though, the financial stakes in this venture are a level or two up from what I’m accustomed to and I’m suddenly not sure I’m entirely comfortable with that. That said, I think I’ll follow through with seeing the gold C4 and take a close look at the service binder to see what kind of story it tells. If I like the car and the maintenance history is thorough enough, I’ll proceed with a PPI and take it from there. Thanks again, folks!

Quotes source post: 19572486

Yeah, check this thread out. https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...-syndrome.html

Quotes source post: 19572135

� The most common engines that need to be bore scoped for bore scoring include the Porsche 911 3.6 liter M96.03, M96.05, and 3.8 liter M97.01 engines.� https://lnengineering.com/products/w...e-scoring.html

Quotes source post: 19572949

The car may be in perfect shape and well serviced which can save you alot of money amd headaches. In addition to the PPI/Borescope being positive, the service records will tell you what is been done and more importantly, what hasn't, which will give you an idea of what you have to spend money on. Plenty of 996s out there that are buy and drive examples. Our comments aren't made to scare you. Quite frankly, the 996 is an easy car to keep running in top condition. Instead our comments are to provide things to be aware of and plan for. In the grand scheme of 20 year old sports cars, the 996 is the hidden gem. But not for long.

Quotes source post: 19571130

This is just general advice when buying a 20+ year old German luxury car, be it Porsche, Mercedes, BMW, Audi, etc... This is more about the ravages of time than how well it was maintained by the previous owner(s). Rubber loses elasticity, plastic gets brittle, wires fray, etc... The good thing is that forums (like this one) were very popular for such cars from that era. So, there is a lot of deep knowledge available on forums. Every problem that you'll probably ever encounter has been encountered, solved, and thoroughly documented with a DIY thread (and now we have YT videos!). You won't find such on FB or Reddit. The other good news is that there is still a lot of support for these cars from Porsche and the aftermarket community. I needed two random, unique bolts for a recent install and was able to get it from my local dealership...for $17 each 😒. ...which brings me to the "Porsche Tax". It's very real and very expensive (relatively), even when compared to other German luxury brands. So, another phrase which also rings true is that, "There is no such thing as a cheap Porsche/Mercedes/BMW/Audi." Either you pay up front by buying a new or younger car or you pay on the back end when you buy an older one, but either way you are gonna pay. Maybe cut your teeth on project cars with an older Audi, BMW, or Mercedes before getting into Porsches as the costs for buying-in and maintaining them rises for each in the order that they are listed.

Quotes source post: 19573015

And yet there is many 996.2s and 997s driving around? You stated the 997 was more prone to bore scoring and have zero proof. What you present is LN stating that 996s and 997s engine should be checked? Yeah part of a PPI that most do when they buy. Its too bad this forum is one the places where the IMS stigma began and yet the 996 polls state otherwise. Maybe there needs to be a bore scoring poll, to get the real facts out there.

Here is what�s stated: LN recommends borescoping 996.2s and 997s because their engines are more susceptible to bore scoring than others.

Yeah, changes to bore coatings. Can't remember what year it changes for the 3.4. Quite frankly, if an owner runs good oil and changes it a couple of times a year, runs fresh fuel injectors and oxy sensors so the cylinders aren't flooded with fuel, and drives the damn car to get the oil nice and hot to burn off the moisture, you've just helped your bores. But that's not what everyone does. Sounds like bore scoring is starting to rear it's ugly head with 991 and 992 as well. Dont know about the lines with Caymans and Boxsters, but I suspect it's the same since the German/EU environmental laws are influencing the manufacturing process accross the board. The question everyone should be asking is what 996.1 years have which bore coating. But for those that think there is no bore scoring with a 3.4, I got a bridge to sell you. The reason is simple, the vast majority of owners fail to change their oil, fail to run properly functioning fuel injectors, amd only drive their cars 2 miles to the grocery story and never burn off the moisture in the oil.

Quotes source post: 19572250

Exhaust is a mod, not something you "need to do."

Quotes source post: 19574145

For sure. Unless your 25 year old exhaust system is falling apart. Same with suspension. It's inevitable, they will eventually need to be replaced. But the key is to bullet proof the engine which is pretty damn easy. But most choose to do the pretty stuff first. Can't figure that one out.

Quotes source post: 19574137

That is the problem there Because the 996s had the IMS stigma, they were cheap to others who wanted to experience them and not knowing how to actually take care of them or running them without getting them hot. You see them with a Carfax of 5 to 9 owners all within less than a year of ownership. Owners who went from air cooled to water cooled, already had a heads up on how these engines run. I still would like to see a bore scoring poll put in the 996 forum, if they did it for the IMS, why not for the bores?

Quotes source post: 19574181

I hear you. Alot of info that isn't complete or the whole story. I can tell you that from 2002 thru 2019 before I joined Rennlist, I never heard of nor worried about bore scoring. My worry was to make sure I had the best damn AOS, Deep Sump and then IMSB on my car to eliminate oil starvation and IMSB failure during a 20-25 min session on the track wearing Hoosiers. About that time folks were complaining about the durability of the 3.4 engine with head and d-chunking issues. It turns out that there wasn't any head or D-chunking issues, there was a failed water pump and breaking fin issue which caused the head and cylinder cracking issues. Today we know. Back in the day, we didn't. Bad assumptions formed from lack of understanding the issues. once we figured it out, i changed my water pump pretty often. Today, we also know about bore scoring, what causes it in and how to prevent it in any 986, 987, 718, 996, 997, 991 and 992 engine. Pretty easy, just run great oil and change it frequently. Agreed. Too much incomplete info. But we live in the modern age of knuckleheads with a social media channel spreading half the story.

Quotes source post: 19574165

Me either. I think it's pretty enough the way it came off the assembly line.

Quotes source post: 19574235

Been here since 2001 and from 1998 on Pelican...Sorry to say the biggest fears are from these sites. When I owned 1 of 5 911s the fear was the head studs pulling from the case, so many owners stated my engine wouldn't last if I didn't replace them. Never did and it was fine. The 996 here has so many great owners and fixes that we all know of, but man spend too much time here....You would be afraid to drive your 996 lol. The stigma is so strong with the 996 and I am just driving around in 110+ weather enjoying the Targa. But because of the fear, I do have moments of hmmmm but than I just drive and enjoy the Targa. I want to see a Bore Score poll here

Quotes source post: 19572187

Yes, agree. I had 7 air-cooled 912/911s up to and including 930 and 935. Sold 'em all long ago. Now I want back in the idiot pool. Any Porsche is an amazing machine. BTW, there won't (shouldn't?) be any over-revs with a Tiptronic IIRC. One I would suggest is PSM (option 476}. Porsche Stability Management or also called "Please Save Me" option. The C4 may have that as standard, not certain. It would be handy for new 911 owner and/or wife. Enclosed pic (not my phot) of where it is on dash, and should be on the little build sheet numbers in frunk. JMO. The "4" is not active all the time, or at least that is what I have read. At any rate, it is helpful in rain and bad bad weather. Whatever. The practicality of a 911 is space for kids/stuff behind the front seats and relative large size. It still isn't a Toyota. If you get a 996 and like it, it will become a mark that very few other cars can match or beat. It is the nature of the beast (911). I speak from experience. Oh, and remember that required tires for that great handling and experience are not Walmart specials and depending upon your sheer enjoyment level, wear out fast.

Quotes source post: 19572187

I must be insane because 10 months in and the daily driver Targa (Only Car) has been very practical for me. Buts a Targa is the best of the coupe/cab.

Quotes source post: 19572949

You can add up all the dollar amounts in that binder and get a feel for what some of this stuff costs. And if that binder has receipts for things done more recently, those aren�t repairs you will have to make again most likely. All that said, I�ve spent $18k over 7 years with my 996, which is now eligible for antique license plates. PORSCHE: Plenty Of Receipts, Sorry Can�t Have Everything. Then again, that $18k was on a $18k purchase price, and the car is easily now worth $28k, so it really only cost me $100/month, which is less than my wife�s gym membership. You can spend a lot more money on many other things. Finally, a lifelong dream to own a Porsche doesn�t have to happen at 25 years old or 45 years old. Plenty of folks do it at 60 and have 25+ years to enjoy and sleep well at night. At the end of the day, you�re looking for a good looking, fun car, for $20k, and there�s a lot to choose from: Ford Mustang GT Mazda Miata Acura Integra R Ford Focus SVT/ST Nissan Z Honda Civic R (too expensive?) Toyota 86/Subaru BRZ Mini Cooper S /JCW

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Thanks for finding and using a picture of my 06/98 😎 makes me feel special

Quotes source posts: 19575561, 19575920, 19576016

Yes, the gold C4 (which I think I�m finally seeing this evening!) has the �PSM off� button. Sounds like it�s standard and on by default, as with most contemporary AWD cars. Duly noted about the tires. That�s one of the knocks against the C4 (vs the RWD variants) but not a deal-breaker. The first time I came across a Targa and saw the hatch in action my eyebrows were activated. I love a hatch! But, whereas they were once a purist�s nightmare, their relative scarcity has driven the price up on them in recent years, it seems. And admittedly, while I can live with the glass roof, I�m still not a huge fan of those 996.2/turbo headlights. I�m a shallow bastard. I aim to snap pics of the past few years� worth of receipts so that I can pore over them at home and ask you all about anything that�s totally alien to me. I do worry slightly about the resale value of a 996 that already has over 140,000 miles on it, service history be damned. There�s a price floor for a running Porsche, obviously, provide I keep up with maintenance, but I feel like every mile added at this point might make it harder to sell. I know I�d certainly have qualms about buying a 996 with, say, 200K miles on it, despite that being a sort of implicit endorsement of its longevity. Surely nothing can last forever (can it?) And yes, I�ve run the gamut of other fun cars in that price range and the only thing I feel palatable is a GTI or Golf R�I mean in terms of a cars that are fun to drive but also suit my personal style. The base Carrera has a sort of maturity and elegance about it that sets it apart from the others. It�s probably just �a German thing�. I can�t really pull off the American muscle car vibe or the Asian boy-racer look. It just ain�t me. Anyway, thanks again, y�all. I will report back with my findings after my first date with the C4 this evening.

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I took the C4 for a spin last night. The car is achingly beautiful, quite nice on the interior as well (there was a bit of a conspicuous dye smell in there, and the navy leather looked pretty fresh but not uncannily so). One spot of bubbling on the dash. I also spotted a very soft dent on the rear passenger side—enough to trigger my OCD since the rest of the car was so clean, but likely pretty easy to pop out. The test drive was good, but not the most fun—West Hollywood in early evening traffic was a bit slow, didn’t really get to open ‘er up. The seller was friendly but very chatty and kept shoulder checking on my behalf which I found kind of distracting. It otherwise was reminiscent of the two other 996s I’d driven, maybe felt a bit heavier, and a bit less peppy than the C2. The feedback from the steering wheel felt great, and the suspension was stiff but I didn’t find it too punishing on some very roughly patched surface streets. One source of disappointment was the service history binder: much less extensive than I’d hoped for from a car with 143K miles. Most of it consisted of smog tests and registration renewals from the past 7-8 years, along with a smattering of oil changes and a PPI showing some issues that had no record of having been addressed. That said, no smoke from a cold start, two clean exhaust pipes, no funny noises from the engine, etc. The seller confessed to me that this was his 29th car (“I know, I have a problem…” he apologized) so he has some sense for this stuff. He’s willing to take the car in for a PPI on my dime. That said, I’m still on the fence. The ride was engaging, visibility is excellent, and it doesn’t feel dangerously low to the ground, but I’m a bit worried my wife wouldn’t appreciate how “raw” the driving experience is—heavy steering, gas and brake pedals, stiff suspension, etc. So there’s still some pondering to be done on that front.

Quotes source post: 19577560

I'm one of those people. Buying and experiencing lower-cost (sub $50K) fun cars is my hobby. I get a thrill out of the hunt and the catch of a great car at a great price. Then I get bored with them in less than a year, even if I put a lot of money into restoring or modding them. As much as I love my 47K mile 996 C4S, if something more amazing shows up on my radar, it'd be tough for me not to consider selling or trading it to make a deal happen. I go through phases where I want random ****. For months it'll be a Euro sports wagon (like the E63 AMG or Audi RS6 wagons), then I'll want a sexy, wingless but wide 911 (like my C4S or a modern GT3 touring). Then I'll want a baller/gangster car like a black S63 AMG. Then I'll want a brutal SUV (like my X5 M). Then I'll want a business guy rocket like an E60 M5. I'm all over the f*cking place. I always sell my cars in better condition than they were when I got them. You mentioned that you want an auto because your wife may drive it, but you also want feel. Just know that your wife can learn to drive stick in an afternoon. I've taught people that quickly. Several years ago, my neighbor wanted me to go with her to look at some cars at CarMax because she hated her Taurus (understandably) and she asked me to go because I knew about cars. She fell in love with a silver VW Beetle 6MT...but she didn't know how to drive stick. I test drove it for her. She loved it so much she traded in her Taurus on the spot and I drove it home for her. She treated me to dinner then we went to a stadium parking lot and I showed her the basics. An hour or so later she drove us home. The words that I told her that got her over the mental block were, "If 15 year old kids in HS can do this, you can do this." If you can get your wife on board with a manual car, then it unlocks a lot for you. Have you identified what you want from the next car? What's important to you? Horsepower, torque, speed, looks (aggressive, sophisticated, refined, luxury, exotic, etc...), feel, etc...? Do you plan to mod the car (wheels, suspension, stereo, etc...)? Do you plan to upgrade/tune it to make it faster? Or do you like your cars stock as the manufacturer intended?

Quotes source post: 19577606

Fair point re: stick, although I feel like I�m already negotiating from a position of weakness by shopping for a car with only two doors, very limited cargo room, and *not* a derivative of a VW Golf (which is probably the only platform she truly loves.) In this context, advocating for a manual transmission is an instant �talk to the hand� scenario. I�ve made the rounds. My dream car remains a 928, but it�s a bit too crude and (and thirsty) for the missus. The occasional Audi (TT, A3 wagon) catches my eye. Some late 80s/early 90s Japanese cars, are cool, but also too primitive for our needs. I�m too tall for a Miata (and an auto would be counter-productive.) Essentially the only three cars that we both find tolerable are the GTI/R, Ioniq 5, and Polestar 2. The 996, as I�ve mentioned, is turning into a bit of a hard sell unfortunately.

Good to see the owner just replaced the water pump. You can transform the ride with bigger rubber on the wheels to better soak up the bumps around town. But unless your wife is happy with the car, you aren't going to be happy. However, while my wife hates to drive my 996 ever since I put in the GT3 seats and set the suspension up for the track back in 2006, she has her own convertible Audi to drive. So she is happy. But we do share an Audi Q7 for grunt work. Works well.

Quotes source post: 19577626

Well, she's your partner so I agree that it's fair to consider her opinions as well (to say the very least). Could be worse...without talking to her, you could show up tomorrow afternoon with a motorcycle...or worse, a boat 😂 I'm a big VW nerd. My all-time favorite was my 2004 Tornado Red R32. One of the few cars that I regret selling. Tell her that the 996 is the ancestor to all sporty VWs. Maybe consider some B7 or B8 A4/S4 wagons. They don't have crazy HP (neither do the 996s that you are considering), but can look damn good when lowered on appropriate wheels. And they would definitely handle family duty as well as have roof rails for travel boxes for extra space on road trips. Also, maybe consider older M3s and M5s. You probably have a better chance at finding a clean older M5 than M3 because the kids are gonna buy up all of the M3s and rag them out. I bought a bone stock, clean af, 2006 M5 for like 40K miles for less than $30K a year ago. Sold it on BAT and took the funds and bought my 996. https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2006-bmw-m5-167/ That sold for $27K. Going in a different direction, maybe consider the D3 S8. Baller sporty. Can defiantly do family duty, too. But, not a head-turner like the 911. One of those, if you know you know cars. You Tube F*ck. [Checks checking account balance. Opens up autotrader, cars.com, and craigslist on web browser....]

Oh, and then there is the 970 Panamera. The DNA is definitely Porsche. Even base Panameras feel more sporty than many BMW M cars and Mercedes AMGs. They also have a very low seating position like Porsche sports cars. I had a 970.2 Panamera and liked it. It performed family duty very well. Wife currently has a 971 Panamera Sport Turismo that we love. But those lean far away from "sports car" and well into "sporty family car".

Quotes source post: 19577626

I can commiserate a little. My wife was adamant I but an automatic sports car so she could drive it, and now she flat out refuses to drive the 996. Golf R gets my vote of the cars you mention. Out of left field, but have you looked at an X3 M40i? I am completely shocked at how good that car is in just about everything. It's almost completely faultless IMO.

Quotes source post: 19577756

I haven�t driven an R yet (plenty of GTIs though.) Maybe that could be an acceptable compromise� And I�ve yet to hear anyone say a bad thing about the X3. Our neighbor just bought one and loves it. But our other car is a compact SUV and I think I�d rather have a bit more variety in the stable. Still might be worth a test drive for fun�

Quotes source post: 19577671

The wife loves wagons, and Audi does a good wagon. I might want something a bit more nimble though.

Quotes source post: 19577671

My VR Corrados would like a word with you... Back to the OP's question, seriously a Mk7 or 7.5 R is going to be a far better choice than a 996 based on what you have listed. And I love the 996. (Or for goofball fun a first-gen Cayenne Turbo. Yes it's a huge brick but OMG it's outright ridiculous how fast and nimble the thing is.)

Quotes source post: 19577835

Well, with enough money to spend on suspension components, you can make almost any car dance. I've put coilovers on a Lexus LS 430 before...and they totally woke the car up. Cornering, acceleration, braking, and ride quality were all improved. $2,000 well-spent. I had coilovers on my B7 A4 Avant as well.

Quotes source post: 19577916

Yeah, I forgot about the Corrado! Those are rad. Also, don't sleep on modern super SUVs (ML 63 AMG, X5M, Cayenne Turbo). My X5 M is a "twin turbo V8 lifted M5". It's nuts. I have Dinan suspension on mine but will probably go KW to get lower just to get a meaner look and more car-like feel. This is as close to an M5 Estate that I can get for a while...and it's probably lighter than the recently announced hybrid M5 😂 (inspiration pic from Bimmerpost): Not the most nimble, but more than I have the ***** to do. I would give up before it would: You Tube It's big enough for family duty, can be turned (TT V8), can be loud, handles like a car, perfect for city life, can tow, can put stuff in the boot and on top, has great seats and general ergonomics, aggressive looks. I hate SUVs but I bought this one. It does sort of blend into the soup of SUVs on the road. But, hey, that's America these days. You can get into one of these for under $40K. Maybe under $30K for rougher examples.

Quotes source post: 19577916

Of all the curveballs to come out of this sub-forum, I never imagined the words Panamera and Cayenne to figure among them. 😂 They�re a dime a dozen out here, but I just assumed they�re a flat tire away from a salvage title. Should I really be considering them?

Quotes source post: 19577948

My Cayenne Turbo S is a V8 sports car in disguise despite weighing 5500 pounds. And they can be had for less than $10k. The downside is 12 mpg (I like to hear the whooshing lol). I still think the Mk7 or 7.5 R is a great choice for this sort of use as it's amazingly practical, gets really good mileage, probably about bottomed in depreciation, and it's actually great to drive.

Quotes source post: 19577953

YES. Go to CarMax and you'll probably find one of each there. I had a base V6 Panamera 970.2 and the PDK made it much faster than it should have been. The Cayenne is simply special. It's not a regular SUV. 307kph / 190mph: You Tube And the 1st gen base diesel can go 220kph / 135mph: You Tube And they can hang with the old guard (Land Cruisers, etc...) off road. That's why a lot of people are buying them up to make Porsche off-road builds with them.

Quotes source post: 19577957

My Cayenne has a sticker in the driver's side door jamb stating snow tires shall not be used at speeds over 150MPH. A friend regularly runs his Cayenne Turbo S on track at Palmer, MA. He's got a tune and a bit more power than I have, 600HP vs 550HP. It really is quite ridiculous even for a brute SUV. As always, it's an Olde German Car with everything that stands for.

Also now that you have opened the auto trans can of worms you might consider a high miles 996 Turbo Tiptronic. Those might be available in the 30's as they are not sought after.

Quotes source posts: 19577956, 19578029

I had no idea the Cayenne Turbo S was spec�ed like that! But yes, at 12 MPG I�d just get a damn 928 and be done with it. That�s just too thirsty for me (though it sounds like a ton of fun.) The Golf R is a serious contender though. Sadly in my experience, the Tiptronic discount generally isn�t as deep as advertised�at least not here in LA. Anything with a Turbo in the title will be well out of my price range. The 996 is not officially out of the picture yet though! There�s still a ray of light or two poking through the clouds of nonplussed-ness.

A general question about Panameras and Macans: they are indeed plentiful on the used market and almost always suspiciously cheap with about 80K-100K miles on them. I’ve never driven either because they always felt like imposter Porsches to me but I’m trying to keep an open mind. That said, am I write to be concerned that these high-mileage family cars are probably about 100 miles away from a massive $10,000 repair bill?

Quotes source post: 19578731

I mean, that issue about repair costs could be any Porsche with the same age and miles. Panameras are inexpensive simply because they are not popular. They are sort of the Duckbilled Platypus of luxury cars. Too big to be a sports car. Too-sporty looks that aren't as refined as the S-Class, 7-Series, LS, A8. Who wants a full-sized luxury car with a hatchback? This is also why the Panamera Sport Turismo was so well received. It took the car from being awkward to, "Hey! It's a wagon! German sport wagons are cool! A Porsche sport wagon is the coolest!". (I still don't know why they discontinued the Sport Turismo variant). There is a lot of engineering in them. In my humble opinion, the "imposter Porsche" is the Macan. That's the one people get right out of college. Go drive a Panamera and report back. Also drive a Macan, too and you'll sense how substantial the Panamera feels and how light (and cheap) the Macan feels. We had a brand new Macan loaner for like 2 weeks as my wife's Panmera was in the shop. It felt like what I think VW Tiguans feel like (seriously). edit: I'm guessing that the Macan is the entry-level Porsche that introduces young buyers to the brand in hopes that they become loyal buyers for decades. Every luxury brand has those and that branding philosophy works. So, instead of a Porsche being something that you have to wait for mid/late career to own. You can now get one early/mid career. And Porsche hopes that these buyers stay loyal to the brand.

Quotes source post: 19578774

Thanks—this makes a lot of sense. The hatchback is a major plus for me, while the “lot of engineering” is obviously major drawback. Might be worth a look, though! And yes, I see what you mean about the Macan. I like the form factor but if it’s just a variation on every other entry-level luxury compact SUV, it’s probably not a car I would eagerly pay the Porsche tax for. (Also they’re almost as common as Teslas in this town, which is a major turn-off.)

Anyone want to chime in on this one for fun? Seller was responsive to my question, despite the feedback rating of 0� https://www.ebay.com/itm/40513395904...mis&media=COPY That�s a lot of miles but it seems to have a service records folder to match� Edit: alas, I think I�m too much of a chicken to buy it sight unseen. (And I suspect the deal won�t go through if the price doesn�t crack the $15K mark at the very least�)

Actually sold for $15,300. Maybe I blew it? Oh well!

Quotes source post: 19583546

I thought it might go for $17k, looks pretty well sorted, but the miles and auto tranny helped keep it low. Looks like a nice car though!

Quotes source post: 19583663

If it had been within driving distance of me I would have probably nabbed it. I�ve always liked that color combo and it came with a lot of essential peace of mind upgrades, unlike the local gold/champagne C4 that I�m still hung up on. Obviously this car has been maintained diligently (hence the recent water pump replacement) but there are still a lot of unanswered questions about its history. That said I would probably have been less hesitant about bidding if it had been on BAT. We�ll see if the eBay sale actually sticks�

The question you have to ask yourself first is... Do you and your wife want a sports car or a sporty sedan, station wagon or SUV? Once you answer that question, it gets a little easier. Regardless, all used cars will cost you the purchase price and then will cost you out of pocket service/maintenance costs to get it to be dependable, and then it will cost you every year for ongoing service/maintenance to keep it running. Just the way it is with mechanical things.

Quotes source post: 19585956

Indeed! And answering that question is proving to be harder than expected 😂 Since my last post, my wife has come around on the idea of a 996, so the spousal hurdle is no more. And as a fun aside which is further helping my case, she had to drive the Honda to work this morning while I took the RAV4 in for its scheduled maintenance. She hadn’t driven it in a few months since buying the Toyota, and as soon as she got to work she texted me, “OMG you need a new car.” Ha! And as luck would have it, I was a few hours too late replying to this CL ad for a properly sorted beauty with only ~90K miles on it: It sold in 14 hours. Goddammit! The silver/champagne lining appears to be that there are indeed a lot of these cars in circulation, and that the right one will surely come along if I’m patient. As it stands two alternatives are still on the table: a GTI, and a Polestar 2. I drove the latter again and had forgotten how fun they are to steer, and how well they cling to the road. I’d say they’re a coupla notches above the other EVs I’ve driven in terms of the fun factor, and the used market is flooded with them right now which makes them an appealing buy at $25K. I could see myself being decently happy in one of those for a while…

Quotes source post: 19587160

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Quotes source post: 19587509

Your disapproval is entirely warranted. But listen, the P2 really is a fun ride (despite lacking a soul.)

Hey, wait a minute�I think I may have found my car! About 101K on the ODO, two owners (current owner bought it from his neighbor in 2012) bog standard Tip C2 in a �dentist chic� silver on gray leather. Comes with juicy upgraded brakes and about $2.5K worth of other upgrades that were never installed (coilovers, sway bar, struts, etc.) Asking price is a very reasonable $15K. It�s pretty clean in and out, apart from a slightly cracked tail light and a very minor ding on the engine lid, and the usual fading gray paint on the centre console. Drives great, no smoke at startup, smells good, sounds good, clean radiator grills, no leaks or soot on the left exhaust, and good vibes all around from the seller. BUT it�s only seen about 20K miles and only semi-regular fluid maintenance over the past 12 years, so I think I�m gonna go ahead with a PPI to make sure I know what I�m getting myself into. (If anyone has a favourite indy shop near Irvine, CA, I�m all ears!) So I won�t be able to take ownership before my birthday tomorrow, but the associated buzz is admittedly still pretty nice. Also: it�s not a Polestar or a GTI!

The 25 year old 996 is a terrific THIRD car for a couple. Especially if you have a garage, where the darling will often be parked, waiting for that little annoying part.

Quotes source post: 19604136

The intention is to get it cheap enough that I can give it a full refresh before I even bring it home, in the hopes that it�ll be good for 4-5 worry-free years of service thereafter. (Unless the hundreds of posts I�ve read from people claiming the 996 makes a great, reliable daily driver are all a lies�? ) It�s going to be a fairly light duty 2nd car, errands, joyrides and a backup 15-mile commuter in the rare event of a Toyota breakdown.

Quotes source post: 19604365

We have covered the major catastrophic items (IMSB, Water Pump, AOS, Borescoring) and how to easily prevent them on this thread and many others. The minor items are when the non-catastrophic parts deteriorate like metal, plastic and rubber pieces attached to the engine, cooling system, power steering, suspension, interior and exterior, etc break amd fail. Inevitable with any 25 year old car. The more parts you refresh, the more worry free life the car will give you for longer. Yeah, you can definately make the car dependable. But it will cost you a couple of bucks. To mee, the 996 is worth it. See post #20 above. Add: the 996.1 guys are going to have to provide whatever things you need to be aware of for the 5 chain system of the 3.4 as it pertains to a refresh. The 3.6 system is only 3 chains.