996 GT3 investment according to Sunday Times - Page 5 - 911/Carrera GT - PistonHeads UK

I see the Sunday Times has listed a 996 GT3 as 4/5 for investment potential in a feature by the founder of Evo mag. There were a handful of cars including two that I have previously owned - TVR Griff and an Elise Mk1. The 996 GT3 is often being billed as an investment and it is easy to see why. It is one of the best cars produced by Porsche and at £35-40k is great value compared to the likes of 964RS's at £60K+. It does always tend to be the mk1 that is featured but I think the mk2 will be up there too. Happy New Year GT3 owners Edited by TGJR on Sunday 3rd January 10:42 Edited by TGJR on Sunday 3rd January 10:42

Thanks for that - mine is my pension scheme (apparently) and is now pampered.................

Mk1 GT3s are getting rare and excellent value for money at the moment and wont be around at this price forever as they are now 11years old for the first 1999 year model. So the only way is up as soon as people realise that most exotic early stuff is beyond reach for most of us. Cliff.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/driving/used_car_...

I just had to have one after the first 100 yards. I decided on a project to make her concours before reading this article or considering its value. I want her factory fresh outside, inside and underneath. She is my 911 Heaven NB: jackal's OCD website is a handy reference.

I'm not sure about values of early 996 GT3s rising. If any do rise, it will be the mark 1 and the 996 RS. But price rises will be modest, and the beard factor will come in. What I mean is, even if the mark 1's value does go up past the value of later GT3s, it won't be because it is better, it will because it is rarer/the first one made/made at the motorsport factory etc, in other words, more for the beards to talk about. On the other hand, there have been lots more 997 GT3s made than 996 GT3s. These 997 GT3s are better cars than the 996 GT3 (mark 1 or 2). Just think of the downward pressure on values the 997 GT3 will have on the 996 GT3. And when the 998 GT3 comes out, it will also have a negative impact on both 997 and 996 GT3s I should think (unless the beards resue the 996 GT3 mark 1 and the 996 RS). I reckon we will see mark 2 996 GT3s for 25 grand one day, maybe less, due to the downward pressure of values of 998/later GT3s. It is ineveitable. In 5 years time, it is possible that due to the beard effect, the value of the 996 GT3 mark 1 will go up a bit, and the 997 GT3 will then be worth about the same amount. Which would I have? The 997 of course. In white. But if I was buying a GT3 today, it would be a mark 1 for 35 grand purely for financial reasons.

johnny senna said: I'm not sure about values of early 996 GT3s rising. If any do rise, it will be the mark 1 and the 996 RS. But price rises will be modest, and the beard factor will come in. What I mean is, even if the mark 1's value does go up past the value of later GT3s, it won't be because it is better, it will because it is rarer/the first one made/made at the motorsport factory etc, in other words, more for the beards to talk about. On the other hand, there have been lots more 997 GT3s made than 996 GT3s. These 997 GT3s are better cars than the 996 GT3 (mark 1 or 2). Just think of the downward pressure on values the 997 GT3 will have on the 996 GT3. And when the 998 GT3 comes out, it will also have a negative impact on both 997 and 996 GT3s I should think (unless the beards resue the 996 GT3 mark 1 and the 996 RS). I reckon we will see mark 2 996 GT3s for 25 grand one day, maybe less, due to the downward pressure of values of 998/later GT3s. It is ineveitable. In 5 years time, it is possible that due to the beard effect, the value of the 996 GT3 mark 1 will go up a bit, and the 997 GT3 will then be worth about the same amount. Which would I have? The 997 of course. In white. But if I was buying a GT3 today, it would be a mark 1 for 35 grand purely for financial reasons. Interesting analysis: how do you explain the 964RS and 993RS phenomenon then, given that they seem to have overcome any kind of downward pricing pressure from their successors, the 996 GT3 and GT3RS?

Rarity.

If it's a matter of rarity over ability...what about the Sports Classic (250 built), the 996 Millennium (911 built) or the 40th Anniversary (1964? built) - one can only hope.

johnny senna said: ... Just think of the downward pressure on values the 997 GT3 will have on the 996 GT3... Very good point. I see some 997GT3's now sub 60K. So, if it was a choice of a 6gt3 at 45K or a 7gt3 at 55K, i'd go for the 7. However, with some 6gt3's available sub 40K, that pressure is not there yet (for me).

I think it is a flawed assumption that as 997 GT3 prices drop then 996 GT3's will be squeezed down reactively. There are reasons and precedents as to why this would not necessarily happen. I've started to grow a beard too

jeremyc said: johnny senna said: I'm not sure about values of early 996 GT3s rising. If any do rise, it will be the mark 1 and the 996 RS. But price rises will be modest, and the beard factor will come in. What I mean is, even if the mark 1's value does go up past the value of later GT3s, it won't be because it is better, it will because it is rarer/the first one made/made at the motorsport factory etc, in other words, more for the beards to talk about. On the other hand, there have been lots more 997 GT3s made than 996 GT3s. These 997 GT3s are better cars than the 996 GT3 (mark 1 or 2). Just think of the downward pressure on values the 997 GT3 will have on the 996 GT3. And when the 998 GT3 comes out, it will also have a negative impact on both 997 and 996 GT3s I should think (unless the beards resue the 996 GT3 mark 1 and the 996 RS). I reckon we will see mark 2 996 GT3s for 25 grand one day, maybe less, due to the downward pressure of values of 998/later GT3s. It is ineveitable. In 5 years time, it is possible that due to the beard effect, the value of the 996 GT3 mark 1 will go up a bit, and the 997 GT3 will then be worth about the same amount. Which would I have? The 997 of course. In white. But if I was buying a GT3 today, it would be a mark 1 for 35 grand purely for financial reasons. Interesting analysis: how do you explain the 964RS and 993RS phenomenon then, given that they seem to have overcome any kind of downward pricing pressure from their successors, the 996 GT3 and GT3RS? Because a 997 and 996 GT3s are more similar to one another than either is to a 964/993 RS. Yes, the GT3 is the successor to the 964/993 RS, but they are very different cars. Therefore the downward pressure argument stacks up for 997/996 GT3s because they are pretty similar. Plus 964 and 993 RS are rarer cars. And the old air cooled beardy magic comes into play.

johnny senna said: jeremyc said: johnny senna said: I'm not sure about values of early 996 GT3s rising. If any do rise, it will be the mark 1 and the 996 RS. But price rises will be modest, and the beard factor will come in. What I mean is, even if the mark 1's value does go up past the value of later GT3s, it won't be because it is better, it will because it is rarer/the first one made/made at the motorsport factory etc, in other words, more for the beards to talk about. On the other hand, there have been lots more 997 GT3s made than 996 GT3s. These 997 GT3s are better cars than the 996 GT3 (mark 1 or 2). Just think of the downward pressure on values the 997 GT3 will have on the 996 GT3. And when the 998 GT3 comes out, it will also have a negative impact on both 997 and 996 GT3s I should think (unless the beards resue the 996 GT3 mark 1 and the 996 RS). I reckon we will see mark 2 996 GT3s for 25 grand one day, maybe less, due to the downward pressure of values of 998/later GT3s. It is ineveitable. In 5 years time, it is possible that due to the beard effect, the value of the 996 GT3 mark 1 will go up a bit, and the 997 GT3 will then be worth about the same amount. Which would I have? The 997 of course. In white. But if I was buying a GT3 today, it would be a mark 1 for 35 grand purely for financial reasons. Interesting analysis: how do you explain the 964RS and 993RS phenomenon then, given that they seem to have overcome any kind of downward pricing pressure from their successors, the 996 GT3 and GT3RS? Because a 997 and 996 GT3s are more similar to one another than either is to a 964/993 RS. Yes, the GT3 is the successor to the 964/993 RS, but they are very different cars. Therefore the downward pressure argument stacks up for 997/996 GT3s because they are pretty similar. Plus 964 and 993 RS are rarer cars. And the old air cooled beardy magic comes into play. Not sure what you're getting at johnny ? You say that you doubt that prices will go up, but then contradict yourself by saying that IF they do, it'll be the 996 GT3 RS and /or MK1 GT3s that do so because of their rarity, Motorsport dept build, first built etc (or more for the beards to talk about as you put it) Is that not what made the 964RS and 993RS increase in value ? (the 993 wasn't that much better than a 964 RS (in my very humble opinion) The 996 MK 1 GT3 was however (IMO) a quantum leap over the 993 RS. Whilst the MK2 996 GT3 was an improvement over the MK1 (it being sold in the US and ROW won't have helped it's residuals IMO ) The 997 GT3 is not "similar" to the 996, it was a massive improvement over any of the 996 versions (as a road car anyway) I'm not sure what numbers were built, but like the Mk2 996 GT3 I suspect too many to make it an appreciating classic. Only time will tell whether the RS version becomes sought after. Unless buyers perceptions have changed, I think the MK1 and RS versions of the 996 will follow those of the 964 and 993 RS. It may take longer (but I've not forgotten I bought my first 964 RS in 2001 for circa £23K . . . ) We're now ten/eleven years on from the launch of the MK1 GT3, with it's impossibly low ground clearance, lumpy tickover, "cr*p" brakes and characterless watercooled kettle of an engine. Let's revisit this thread in another ten years and see where the values have gone ay ?

I tend to agree that the mk1 GT3 will lead the way with strong values in a few years time, however, I think the mk 2 will be not far behind. Lets say, for arguments sake, that in 2018 a good mk1 GT3 with 60k miles on the clock is fetching £50k. Surely some potential buyers will look at the mk2 as an option if they are priced at say circa £40k? It's a tough call to predict prices in 5-10 years time but of all the Porsches built in the past 10 years and currently available for less than £60k my order of 'investment' potential would be: 1) 996 GT3 RS 2) 996 GT3 Mk1 3) 996 GT3 mk2 4) 996 GT2 5) 997 GT3 (RS not available at sub £60k yet) 6) 996 Turbo

Slippydiff said: johnny senna said: jeremyc said: johnny senna said: I'm not sure about values of early 996 GT3s rising. If any do rise, it will be the mark 1 and the 996 RS. But price rises will be modest, and the beard factor will come in. What I mean is, even if the mark 1's value does go up past the value of later GT3s, it won't be because it is better, it will because it is rarer/the first one made/made at the motorsport factory etc, in other words, more for the beards to talk about. On the other hand, there have been lots more 997 GT3s made than 996 GT3s. These 997 GT3s are better cars than the 996 GT3 (mark 1 or 2). Just think of the downward pressure on values the 997 GT3 will have on the 996 GT3. And when the 998 GT3 comes out, it will also have a negative impact on both 997 and 996 GT3s I should think (unless the beards resue the 996 GT3 mark 1 and the 996 RS). I reckon we will see mark 2 996 GT3s for 25 grand one day, maybe less, due to the downward pressure of values of 998/later GT3s. It is ineveitable. In 5 years time, it is possible that due to the beard effect, the value of the 996 GT3 mark 1 will go up a bit, and the 997 GT3 will then be worth about the same amount. Which would I have? The 997 of course. In white. But if I was buying a GT3 today, it would be a mark 1 for 35 grand purely for financial reasons. Interesting analysis: how do you explain the 964RS and 993RS phenomenon then, given that they seem to have overcome any kind of downward pricing pressure from their successors, the 996 GT3 and GT3RS? Because a 997 and 996 GT3s are more similar to one another than either is to a 964/993 RS. Yes, the GT3 is the successor to the 964/993 RS, but they are very different cars. Therefore the downward pressure argument stacks up for 997/996 GT3s because they are pretty similar. Plus 964 and 993 RS are rarer cars. And the old air cooled beardy magic comes into play. Not sure what you're getting at johnny ? You say that you doubt that prices will go up, but then contradict yourself by saying that IF they do, it'll be the 996 GT3 RS and /or MK1 GT3s that do so because of their rarity, Motorsport dept build, first built etc (or more for the beards to talk about as you put it) Is that not what made the 964RS and 993RS increase in value ? (the 993 wasn't that much better than a 964 RS (in my very humble opinion) The 996 MK 1 GT3 was however (IMO) a quantum leap over the 993 RS. Whilst the MK2 996 GT3 was an improvement over the MK1 (it being sold in the US and ROW won't have helped it's residuals IMO ) The 997 GT3 is not "similar" to the 996, it was a massive improvement over any of the 996 versions (as a road car anyway) I'm not sure what numbers were built, but like the Mk2 996 GT3 I suspect too many to make it an appreciating classic. Only time will tell whether the RS version becomes sought after. Unless buyers perceptions have changed, I think the MK1 and RS versions of the 996 will follow those of the 964 and 993 RS. It may take longer (but I've not forgotten I bought my first 964 RS in 2001 for circa £23K . . . ) We're now ten/eleven years on from the launch of the MK1 GT3, with it's impossibly low ground clearance, lumpy tickover, "cr*p" brakes and characterless watercooled kettle of an engine. Let's revisit this thread in another ten years and see where the values have gone ay ? I still think the 996 GT3 is much closer in size/character etc to a 997 GT3 than either a 993 or 964 RS. I reckon the beards will encourage the value of the mark 1 996 GT3 and 996 RS to go up, but the beards cannot work miracles. The price rise for the mark 1 996 GT3 and RS will be modest at best. Say 50 grand for a good mark 1 GT3 in a few years and 65 grand for the RS. But in a few years, people with sense will realise that a 997 GT3 is much better value for less money (in say 3-6 years time) and choose a 997 over a 996, hence the demand for the mark 1 GT3 will not be as high as it has been for the 993/964RS and its value will not rise quite so high. The other reason 964/993 RSs are really valuable is that they feel closer to the old expensive gear like the '73 RS. The interiors feel very similar, so does the upright windscreen right on front of your nose, and these factors somehow help buyers justify the mega values of the rarer lightweight aircooled stuff. When you sit in a 996/997, the cars feel massive in comparison, a different car altogether. I think this makes it harder for collectors to justify paying daft money for them. So, I predict: Modest price rises for mark 1 996 GT3 and 996 RS, say 50K and 65-70K respectively in 5-10 years. All other 996 and 997 GT3 values will drop as time goes by and then stabilise. All of these cars will have their values negatively affected by every new GT3 model that emerges, as it surely will over time (e.g. 998 GT3, 998 GT3 RS). It is inevitable.

Whilst there is downwards pressure whilst still competing with current models, one has to remember they are going up in price which gives some breathing room. I think the 996 will do ok as its the last of the cars which were 90% mechanical engineering whereas the newer ones are more and more electrical engineering. They are also easier to drive, so I think the challenge and the mechanical nature give the 6 something special. The electrical engineering is just going to date. Ultimately I don't care as its not an investment and whilst I've not really had too much depreciation pain as it goes for cars, I've more than compensated with servicing costs keeping it in top condition! Edited by DanH on Monday 4th January 19:47

johnny senna said: Slippydiff said: johnny senna said: jeremyc said: johnny senna said: I'm not sure about values of early 996 GT3s rising. If any do rise, it will be the mark 1 and the 996 RS. But price rises will be modest, and the beard factor will come in. What I mean is, even if the mark 1's value does go up past the value of later GT3s, it won't be because it is better, it will because it is rarer/the first one made/made at the motorsport factory etc, in other words, more for the beards to talk about. On the other hand, there have been lots more 997 GT3s made than 996 GT3s. These 997 GT3s are better cars than the 996 GT3 (mark 1 or 2). Just think of the downward pressure on values the 997 GT3 will have on the 996 GT3. And when the 998 GT3 comes out, it will also have a negative impact on both 997 and 996 GT3s I should think (unless the beards resue the 996 GT3 mark 1 and the 996 RS). I reckon we will see mark 2 996 GT3s for 25 grand one day, maybe less, due to the downward pressure of values of 998/later GT3s. It is ineveitable. In 5 years time, it is possible that due to the beard effect, the value of the 996 GT3 mark 1 will go up a bit, and the 997 GT3 will then be worth about the same amount. Which would I have? The 997 of course. In white. But if I was buying a GT3 today, it would be a mark 1 for 35 grand purely for financial reasons. Interesting analysis: how do you explain the 964RS and 993RS phenomenon then, given that they seem to have overcome any kind of downward pricing pressure from their successors, the 996 GT3 and GT3RS? Because a 997 and 996 GT3s are more similar to one another than either is to a 964/993 RS. Yes, the GT3 is the successor to the 964/993 RS, but they are very different cars. Therefore the downward pressure argument stacks up for 997/996 GT3s because they are pretty similar. Plus 964 and 993 RS are rarer cars. And the old air cooled beardy magic comes into play. Not sure what you're getting at johnny ? You say that you doubt that prices will go up, but then contradict yourself by saying that IF they do, it'll be the 996 GT3 RS and /or MK1 GT3s that do so because of their rarity, Motorsport dept build, first built etc (or more for the beards to talk about as you put it) Is that not what made the 964RS and 993RS increase in value ? (the 993 wasn't that much better than a 964 RS (in my very humble opinion) The 996 MK 1 GT3 was however (IMO) a quantum leap over the 993 RS. Whilst the MK2 996 GT3 was an improvement over the MK1 (it being sold in the US and ROW won't have helped it's residuals IMO ) The 997 GT3 is not "similar" to the 996, it was a massive improvement over any of the 996 versions (as a road car anyway) I'm not sure what numbers were built, but like the Mk2 996 GT3 I suspect too many to make it an appreciating classic. Only time will tell whether the RS version becomes sought after. Unless buyers perceptions have changed, I think the MK1 and RS versions of the 996 will follow those of the 964 and 993 RS. It may take longer (but I've not forgotten I bought my first 964 RS in 2001 for circa £23K . . . ) We're now ten/eleven years on from the launch of the MK1 GT3, with it's impossibly low ground clearance, lumpy tickover, "cr*p" brakes and characterless watercooled kettle of an engine. Let's revisit this thread in another ten years and see where the values have gone ay ? I still think the 996 GT3 is much closer in size/character etc to a 997 GT3 than either a 993 or 964 RS. I reckon the beards will encourage the value of the mark 1 996 GT3 and 996 RS to go up, but the beards cannot work miracles. The price rise for the mark 1 996 GT3 and RS will be modest at best. Say 50 grand for a good mark 1 GT3 in a few years and 65 grand for the RS. But in a few years, people with sense will realise that a 997 GT3 is much better value for less money (in say 3-6 years time) and choose a 997 over a 996, hence the demand for the mark 1 GT3 will not be as high as it has been for the 993/964RS and its value will not rise quite so high. The other reason 964/993 RSs are really valuable is that they feel closer to the old expensive gear like the '73 RS. The interiors feel very similar, so does the upright windscreen right on front of your nose, and these factors somehow help buyers justify the mega values of the rarer lightweight aircooled stuff. When you sit in a 996/997, the cars feel massive in comparison, a different car altogether. I think this makes it harder for collectors to justify paying daft money for them. So, I predict: Modest price rises for mark 1 996 GT3 and 996 RS, say 50K and 65-70K respectively in 5-10 years. All other 996 and 997 GT3 values will drop as time goes by and then stabilise. All of these cars will have their values negatively affected by every new GT3 model that emerges, as it surely will over time (e.g. 998 GT3, 998 GT3 RS). It is inevitable. Still not convinced If your theory is correct there'd be no 996 RSs on the market and lots of 993 and 964RSs unsold, as in your words "those with sense will realise that a 996 GT3 RS is much better value for less money" ? IMO the MK1 GT3 feels pretty agricultural already (when compared with the 997 GT3 GEN 1 & 2) and I shudder to think what it'll feel like compared to the 998 . . . . On the basis of feeling like the "old stuff" the Mk1 has got a lot of the traits the beardies consider an integral part of proper GT/RS 911 ownership.

with the 996 the specialness has a much wider spread ignoring air vs. water for a second, the specialness has been diluted (and the 997 even more so !) So you cannot expect 996 and 997 to follow suit a La 993, 964 etc.. Leaving aside the GT2 for a second... with the 993 we had the RS. With the 964 we had the RS. With 996 we had the GT3 mki, GT3 mkii and then the GT3 RS. That's a lot more cars and 3 different models. In my book that makes at least the gT3's (mki and ii) a different kettle of fish to the 993rs and 964rs. If the money is on one kettle, its the 996 GT3RS. Its the really special one that everyone will want and what, only 500 were ever made. Less than half the number of 993rs's. Edited by jackal on Monday 4th January 20:14

I still can't for the life of me understand why the (albeit superb) GT3 keeps getting press coverage whilst the GT2 barely gets a mention. The GT2 is faster (massively so!) rarer, better looking, etc, etc. In fact in every measurable way it's better. For these reasons I'm pretty confident that in the next few years enough people will open their eyes to the tremendous GT2 that it'll become properly collectable. Hell there's probably fewer than 100 RHD GT2s in existance now, how much rarer do you want??? SM

supermono said: I still can't for the life of me understand why the (albeit superb) GT3 keeps getting press coverage whilst the GT2 barely gets a mention. Because it has no motorsport provenance. The 964RS, 993RS and GT3s have all been used extensively in racing; the 996 (and onwards) GT2s haven't had such a role. The 993 GT2 did star on track, contributing to the stellar values they achieve. Edited by jeremyc on Monday 4th January 21:00

supermono said: I still can't for the life of me understand why the (albeit superb) GT3 keeps getting press coverage whilst the GT2 barely gets a mention. The GT2 is faster (massively so!) rarer, better looking, etc, etc. In fact in every measurable way it's better. For these reasons I'm pretty confident that in the next few years enough people will open their eyes to the tremendous GT2 that it'll become properly collectable. Hell there's probably fewer than 100 RHD GT2s in existance now, how much rarer do you want??? SM Ultimate speed has nothing to do with whether a car appreciates or depreciates ! Rarity ? The Alfa Romeo SV is rare, but do I hanker for one ? Looks are subjective. supermono said: In fact in every measureable way it's better Subjective Slippydiff said: It's modified X50 996 Turbo which the beancounters thought they could turn a (massive) profit on without the expense of the R & D the MK 1 GT3 was subjected to by the Motorsport department Subjective also (perhaps) . . . . Edited by Slippydiff on Monday 4th January 21:33

in 10 years time there could be no more petrol /£5 a litre or the gov. will have some supertax for anything putting out more than c02 99gkm therefor our cars will become absolutley worthless.imho no car is going to be an investment anymore take a look at ferraris use to have rock solid residuals f430 for 65k and dropping.

mayes911 said: imho no car is going to be a true investment anymore take a look at ferraris use to have rock solid residuals f430 for 65k and dropping. 10 years? Try now. I drive and track my car (as it should be used) therefore it has maintanence costs, insurance costs, road user costs, tyres etc, etc, etc. Perhaps one day I might be able to sell it for more than I paid for it, but as an investment?? It would make more sense to have invested in the Bank of Scotland pre crash... I wonder how many '73 RS's have actually, truly made money for their owners, once the cost of storage, insurance and refurbishment are accounted for.

gwasoc said: I wonder how many '73 RS's have actually, truly made money for their owners, once the cost of storage, insurance and refurbishment are accounted for. That is an excellent point. I made 30 grand on my 993RS, but I spent 14 grand on an engine rebuild/car overhaul which ate into my profit, and one year's track days probably cost 10 grand.

johnny senna said: Slippydiff said: johnny senna said: jeremyc said: johnny senna said: I'm not sure about values of early 996 GT3s rising. If any do rise, it will be the mark 1 and the 996 RS. But price rises will be modest, and the beard factor will come in. What I mean is, even if the mark 1's value does go up past the value of later GT3s, it won't be because it is better, it will because it is rarer/the first one made/made at the motorsport factory etc, in other words, more for the beards to talk about. On the other hand, there have been lots more 997 GT3s made than 996 GT3s. These 997 GT3s are better cars than the 996 GT3 (mark 1 or 2). Just think of the downward pressure on values the 997 GT3 will have on the 996 GT3. And when the 998 GT3 comes out, it will also have a negative impact on both 997 and 996 GT3s I should think (unless the beards resue the 996 GT3 mark 1 and the 996 RS). I reckon we will see mark 2 996 GT3s for 25 grand one day, maybe less, due to the downward pressure of values of 998/later GT3s. It is ineveitable. In 5 years time, it is possible that due to the beard effect, the value of the 996 GT3 mark 1 will go up a bit, and the 997 GT3 will then be worth about the same amount. Which would I have? The 997 of course. In white. But if I was buying a GT3 today, it would be a mark 1 for 35 grand purely for financial reasons. Interesting analysis: how do you explain the 964RS and 993RS phenomenon then, given that they seem to have overcome any kind of downward pricing pressure from their successors, the 996 GT3 and GT3RS? not sure I agree with you Johnny. The 996 and 997 GT3's are very different cars indeed and I think that you are mistaken in your assumption that they are similar. Having driven a 964 RS and a 993 RS I would say that there is probably more difference in the driving exprerience between the 996 and 997 GT3's. The 996 GT3 will be regarded as the last in the line of extreme 911's that relied completely on the driver to extact thier performance having no electronic driver aids. In terms of rarity, the 996 Gt3's will be very rare cars compared to the 997 cars and beyond. The 996RS is one of the rarest 911's ever made being only 500 world wide. I can see 996RS's following the 993 and 964's before them within 5 years. Because a 997 and 996 GT3s are more similar to one another than either is to a 964/993 RS. Yes, the GT3 is the successor to the 964/993 RS, but they are very different cars. Therefore the downward pressure argument stacks up for 997/996 GT3s because they are pretty similar. Plus 964 and 993 RS are rarer cars. And the old air cooled beardy magic comes into play. Not sure what you're getting at johnny ? You say that you doubt that prices will go up, but then contradict yourself by saying that IF they do, it'll be the 996 GT3 RS and /or MK1 GT3s that do so because of their rarity, Motorsport dept build, first built etc (or more for the beards to talk about as you put it) Is that not what made the 964RS and 993RS increase in value ? (the 993 wasn't that much better than a 964 RS (in my very humble opinion) The 996 MK 1 GT3 was however (IMO) a quantum leap over the 993 RS. Whilst the MK2 996 GT3 was an improvement over the MK1 (it being sold in the US and ROW won't have helped it's residuals IMO ) The 997 GT3 is not "similar" to the 996, it was a massive improvement over any of the 996 versions (as a road car anyway) I'm not sure what numbers were built, but like the Mk2 996 GT3 I suspect too many to make it an appreciating classic. Only time will tell whether the RS version becomes sought after. Unless buyers perceptions have changed, I think the MK1 and RS versions of the 996 will follow those of the 964 and 993 RS. It may take longer (but I've not forgotten I bought my first 964 RS in 2001 for circa £23K . . . ) We're now ten/eleven years on from the launch of the MK1 GT3, with it's impossibly low ground clearance, lumpy tickover, "cr*p" brakes and characterless watercooled kettle of an engine. Let's revisit this thread in another ten years and see where the values have gone ay ? I still think the 996 GT3 is much closer in size/character etc to a 997 GT3 than either a 993 or 964 RS. I reckon the beards will encourage the value of the mark 1 996 GT3 and 996 RS to go up, but the beards cannot work miracles. The price rise for the mark 1 996 GT3 and RS will be modest at best. Say 50 grand for a good mark 1 GT3 in a few years and 65 grand for the RS. But in a few years, people with sense will realise that a 997 GT3 is much better value for less money (in say 3-6 years time) and choose a 997 over a 996, hence the demand for the mark 1 GT3 will not be as high as it has been for the 993/964RS and its value will not rise quite so high. The other reason 964/993 RSs are really valuable is that they feel closer to the old expensive gear like the '73 RS. The interiors feel very similar, so does the upright windscreen right on front of your nose, and these factors somehow help buyers justify the mega values of the rarer lightweight aircooled stuff. When you sit in a 996/997, the cars feel massive in comparison, a different car altogether. I think this makes it harder for collectors to justify paying daft money for them. So, I predict: Modest price rises for mark 1 996 GT3 and 996 RS, say 50K and 65-70K respectively in 5-10 years. All other 996 and 997 GT3 values will drop as time goes by and then stabilise. All of these cars will have their values negatively affected by every new GT3 model that emerges, as it surely will over time (e.g. 998 GT3, 998 GT3 RS). It is inevitable. not sure I agree with you Johnny. The 996 and 997 GT3's are very different cars indeed and I think that you are mistaken in your assumption that they are similar. Having driven a 964 RS and a 993 RS I would say that there is probably more difference in the driving exprerience between the 996 and 997 GT3's. The 996 GT3 will be regarded as the last in the line of extreme 911's that relied completely on the driver to extact thier performance having no electronic driver aids. In terms of rarity, the 996 Gt3's will be very rare cars compared to the 997 cars and beyond. The 996RS is one of the rarest 911's ever made being only 500 world wide. I can see 996RS's following the 993 and 964RS before them within 5 years.

Slippydiff said: The 997 GT3 is not "similar" to the 996, it was a massive improvement over any of the 996 versions (as a road car anyway) Steve Rance said: not sure I agree with you Johnny. The 996 and 997 GT3's are very different cars indeed and I think that you are mistaken in your assumption that they are similar. Having driven a 964 RS and a 993 RS I would say that there is probably more difference in the driving exprerience between the 996 and 997 GT3's. The 996 GT3 will be regarded as the last in the line of extreme 911's that relied completely on the driver to extact thier performance having no electronic driver aids. In terms of rarity, the 996 Gt3's will be very rare cars compared to the 997 cars and beyond. The 996RS is one of the rarest 911's ever made being only 500 world wide. I can see 996RS's following the 993 and 964RS before them within 5 years

johnny senna said: These 997 GT3s are better cars than the 996 GT3 (mark 1 or 2). Interesting this because it depends on by which measurments you take. Yes the 7GT3 is quicker round the Nurburgring, has more power, stops faster, but is it better? The same could be said for the 2.7RS vs the 964RS. The former being the more highly regarded car yet is slower, more flexible, doesn't stop as well etc. "This is better than that" is a very grey area in the phenomenon that is the 911. The measurements are evidently not about bare statistics, but feel, specialness, connectivity, thrill... My first 100 yards in a 6GT3 was all it took to convince me I wanted one, and this was at legal road speeds.

Its about time that supposed specialists stopped harping on about the 996 GT2 being "just a mildly modified 996 Turbo" some differences are: . adjustable suspension with a different wheelbase than the Turbo . modified airflow through radiators and oil coolers with exit at leading edge of front hood. . different engine block from standard turbo . rear wheels wider than standard turbo involvong significant bodywork alterations to fit . no four wheel drive . no traction control . approx 250kilos lighter than Turbo . bigger brakes . revised clutch . suspension approx 200mms lower . various aero mods to bodywork and underneath car . less sound deadening . no rear seats . no sunroof etc etc... etc etc

PaulRothwell said: Its about time that supposed specialists stopped harping on about the 996 GT2 being "just a mildly modified 996 Turbo" some differences are: . adjustable suspension with a different wheelbase than the Turbo . modified airflow through radiators and oil coolers with exit at leading edge of front hood. . different engine block from standard turbo . rear wheels wider than standard turbo involvong significant bodywork alterations to fit . no four wheel drive . no traction control . approx 250kilos lighter than Turbo . bigger brakes . revised clutch . suspension approx 200mms lower . various aero mods to bodywork and underneath car . less sound deadening . no rear seats . no sunroof etc etc... etc etc Most of that stuff is pretty negligible so its a bit sad there aren't more significant differences. They didn't put nearly enough resources into developing the 6GT2, which they have rectified with the superlative 7GT2.

If 996 GT3 is the one to have, why are there so many 996 GT3RS for sale. Not many of them were made and yesterday there were 8 on autotrader.

PaulRothwell said: . different engine block from standard turbo Everything I've read seems to contradict this. It appears the differences are isolated to extraneous/ancillary components and engine management. Something I can add is that it has stronger struts that can accommodate a larger 80mm dia wheel bearing. I think uniballs with strengthened turrets also feature. The gearbox is beefier than the standard Turbo's too, and is very similar to that used in the mk2 GT3.

richardofengland said: If 996 GT3 is the one to have, why are there so many 996 GT3RS for sale. Not many of them were made and yesterday there were 8 on autotrader. I've always wondered this. Given only 682 examples were built, it's one of the rarest 911's ever, yet at the moment is readily available and with choice. I suspect things will change when the speculators step in.

PaulRothwell said: ....supposed specialists..... . suspension approx 200mms lower I hope that's a typo, or do you have a grp C GT2?

richardofengland said: If 996 GT3 is the one to have, why are there so many 996 GT3RS for sale. Not many of them were made and yesterday there were 8 on autotrader. Maybe because it is not so user friendly on a daily basis, and that track day enthusiasts have either already got theirs or don't want to spend so much money on a track weapon (plenty of choice available for far less money) Edited by PPPPPP on Tuesday 5th January 13:13

In the UK at least, the 996RS isn't that rare compared to other 996 GT3 versions, which perhaps explains ready availability. 996 Mk1 = 103 996RS = 117 996 Mk2 = 221 The RS would be my pick though for weekend/2nd car, though all versions are superb and Mk2 is best value (imo). Talking about their "investment" potential is deeply tedious though. P.S. Utter cobblers about a 996 GT2 weighing 250kgs less than a 996 Turbo.

richardofengland said: If 996 GT3 is the one to have, why are there so many 996 GT3RS for sale. Not many of them were made and yesterday there were 8 on autotrader. I don't think the recession and cost of trackdays is helping much.

PaulRothwell said: Its about time that supposed specialists stopped harping on about the 996 GT2 being "just a mildly modified 996 Turbo" some differences are: PaulRothwell said: . adjustable suspension with a different wheelbase than the Turbo I'm unaware of any difference in wheelbase, Would you care to elaborate ? PaulRothwell said: . modified airflow through radiators and oil coolers with exit at leading edge of front hood I'd say that comes under the heading of mildly modified. PaulRothwell said: . different engine block from standard turbo I'm unaware of any difference in the block specifcations over the standard X50 or indeed the "basic" 996 Turbo engine. Would you care to elaborate ? PaulRothwell said: . rear wheels wider than standard turbo involvong significant bodywork alterations to fit The rear wheelarches were rolled. I'd say that comes under the heading of mildly modified. PaulRothwell said: . no four wheel drive An upgraded GT3 type transmission based on the X50 'box as I understand it. Hardly a major upgrade requiring massive re-tooling or investment. PaulRothwell said: . no traction control See above. PaulRothwell said: . approx 250kilos lighter than Turbo The majority of which will have been as a result of the deletion of the above mentioned four wheel drive, lack of sunroof and rear seats. PaulRothwell said: . bigger brakes Identical to the (standard fit) Turbo S items. PaulRothwell said: . revised clutch X50 item. PaulRothwell said: . suspension approx 200mms lower Now you're just being silly . . . PaulRothwell said: . various aero mods to bodywork and underneath car The different rear spoiler and front bumper ? As previously suggested. Mildly modified. PaulRothwell said: . less sound deadening Hardly a major modification. PaulRothwell said: . no rear seats Hardly a major modification. PaulRothwell said: . no sunroof Hardly a major modification. Edited by Slippydiff on Tuesday 5th January 13:26

DanH said: richardofengland said: If 996 GT3 is the one to have, why are there so many 996 GT3RS for sale. Not many of them were made and yesterday there were 8 on autotrader. I don't think the recession and cost of trackdays is helping much. Or the fact that this type of car is often bought by posers who like the image but soon realise that its not for them once all their mates have seen it.

Or they have stuck it in a wall. A large number of 996 RS's have been stuck in the armco or the scenery. Not the most forgiving of cars. Catrs with a good provenance will be very hard to find in a few years

PPPPPP said: Steve Rance said: Or they have stuck it in a wall. A large number of 996 RS's have been stuck in the armco or the scenery. Not the most forgiving of cars. Catrs with a good provenance will be very hard to find in a few years I have considered the 996RS, many times , and concluded it was too extreme for my needs. If I had the luxury of a 10 car garage, I would buy one for sure. What intrigues me is that so many true Porsche experts & die hard aficianados keep talking about the increasing worth of these cars in the near term, and yet no-one has "hoovered" up all these good provenance cars. Surely the expected capital appreciation taking into account the small number of cars built, many stuck in the armco etc, will be better than the ridiculous interest rates being earnt on deposit accounts for the huge number of wealthy Porsche fans. Edited by PPPPPP on Tuesday 5th January 15:31 Coz most of the old b ks spoken on here is not from 'cash-rich' interest earning punters but from 'money borrowing badge -jockeys' so what you are actually looking at is the cost of finance to buy these cars not where you can lend cash.

Steve Rance said: Or they have stuck it in a wall. A large number of 996 RS's have been stuck in the armco or the scenery. Not the most forgiving of cars. Catrs with a good provenance will be very hard to find in a few years I have considered the 996RS, many times , and concluded it was too extreme for my needs. If I had the luxury of a 10 car garage, I would buy one for sure. What intrigues me is that so many true Porsche experts & die hard aficianados keep talking about the increasing worth of these cars in the near term, and yet no-one has "hoovered" up all these good provenance cars. Surely the expected capital appreciation taking into account the small number of cars built, many stuck in the armco etc, will be better than the ridiculous interest rates being earnt on deposit accounts for the huge number of wealthy Porsche fans. And does the average 996RS have more owners than the average 996/997 GT3? Just as the M3 CSL has more owners than the standard M3? Edited by PPPPPP on Tuesday 5th January 15:43

Slippydiff said: PaulRothwell said: Its about time that supposed specialists stopped harping on about the 996 GT2 being "just a mildly modified 996 Turbo" some differences are: PaulRothwell said: . adjustable suspension with a different wheelbase than the Turbo I'm unaware of any difference in wheelbase, Would you care to elaborate ? PaulRothwell said: . modified airflow through radiators and oil coolers with exit at leading edge of front hood I'd say that comes under the heading of mildly modified. PaulRothwell said: . different engine block from standard turbo I'm unaware of any difference in the block specifcations over the standard X50 or indeed the "basic" 996 Turbo engine. Would you care to elaborate ? PaulRothwell said: . rear wheels wider than standard turbo involvong significant bodywork alterations to fit The rear wheelarches were rolled. I'd say that comes under the heading of mildly modified. PaulRothwell said: . no four wheel drive An upgraded GT3 type transmission based on the X50 'box as I understand it. Hardly a major upgrade requiring massive re-tooling or investment. PaulRothwell said: . no traction control See above. PaulRothwell said: . approx 250kilos lighter than Turbo The majority of which will have been as a result of the deletion of the above mentioned four wheel drive, lack of sunroof and rear seats. PaulRothwell said: . bigger brakes Identical to the (standard fit) Turbo S items. PaulRothwell said: . revised clutch X50 item. PaulRothwell said: . suspension approx 200mms lower Now you're just being silly . . . PaulRothwell said: . various aero mods to bodywork and underneath car The different rear spoiler and front bumper ? As previously suggested. Mildly modified. PaulRothwell said: . less sound deadening Hardly a major modification. PaulRothwell said: . no rear seats Hardly a major modification. PaulRothwell said: . no sunroof Hardly a major modification. That 250kg sounds a bit suspicious though doesnt it?. The front diff driveshafts and prop cant weigh that much. Ok ceramics are fitted, but slightly wider wheels and tires back and front must negate some of that. Lots of gt2s had the turbo front sports seats fitted, so that leaves the sunroof, sound deadening, and rear seats, the rear seats couldnt be any smaller if they tried!, and the cabin isnt massive so maybe not loads of sound deadening. Edited by Slippydiff on Tuesday 5th January 13:26

kayc said: PPPPPP said: Steve Rance said: Or they have stuck it in a wall. A large number of 996 RS's have been stuck in the armco or the scenery. Not the most forgiving of cars. Cars with a good provenance will be very hard to find in a few years I have considered the 996RS, many times , and concluded it was too extreme for my needs. If I had the luxury of a 10 car garage, I would buy one for sure. What intrigues me is that so many true Porsche experts & die hard aficianados keep talking about the increasing worth of these cars in the near term, and yet no-one has "hoovered" up all these good provenance cars. Surely the expected capital appreciation taking into account the small number of cars built, many stuck in the armco etc, will be better than the ridiculous interest rates being earnt on deposit accounts for the huge number of wealthy Porsche fans. Edited by PPPPPP on Tuesday 5th January 15:31 Coz most of the old b ks spoken on here is not from 'cash-rich' interest earning punters but from 'money borrowing badge -jockeys' so what you are actually looking at is the cost of finance to buy these cars not where you can lend cash. I hear what you say. Hexagon, a BMW dealer cornered the market on Z8's, E39 M5's and controlled prices quite well and sold the cars for top $. Surprised a Porsche dealer has not done the same for the 996RS, unless they don't believe in the hype or wider appeal for the car in the near term.

PPPPPP said: kayc said: PPPPPP said: Steve Rance said: Or they have stuck it in a wall. A large number of 996 RS's have been stuck in the armco or the scenery. Not the most forgiving of cars. Cars with a good provenance will be very hard to find in a few years I have considered the 996RS, many times , and concluded it was too extreme for my needs. If I had the luxury of a 10 car garage, I would buy one for sure. What intrigues me is that so many true Porsche experts & die hard aficianados keep talking about the increasing worth of these cars in the near term, and yet no-one has "hoovered" up all these good provenance cars. Surely the expected capital appreciation taking into account the small number of cars built, many stuck in the armco etc, will be better than the ridiculous interest rates being earnt on deposit accounts for the huge number of wealthy Porsche fans. Edited by PPPPPP on Tuesday 5th January 15:31 Coz most of the old b ks spoken on here is not from 'cash-rich' interest earning punters but from 'money borrowing badge -jockeys' so what you are actually looking at is the cost of finance to buy these cars not where you can lend cash. I hear what you say. Hexagon, a BMW dealer cornered the market on Z8's, E39 M5's and controlled prices quite well and sold the cars for top $. Surprised a Porsche dealer has not done the same for the 996RS, unless they don't believe in the hype or wider appeal for the car in the near term. Thats coz they havent got any cash either,they are just trading in never-never land like 90% of the population..Hexagon only cornered the market because they had 2 way flow from end-user punters..not because they made markets and used their own cash and took the principle risk..thats what creates volatility in markets..2 years ago no Porsche dealer wanted any inventory now they want everything..2 years time they will want nothing again...if they took a view with their so-called cash they could smooth market volatility and subsequently prices would be more realistic Edited by kayc on Tuesday 5th January 16:16

I suppose few foresaw the explosion in 964/993 RS prices, I sold my 993RS a couple of years before prices really took off. Edited by PPPPPP on Tuesday 5th January 16:44

Weight difference between a GT2 and GT3 is 110kg roughly Slippy do you miss owning a GT2?

AL001 said: 996 Mk1 = 103 996RS = 117 996 Mk2 = 221 But how many really good examples are left from these limited production numbers?

PPPPPP said: I suppose few foresaw the explosion in 964/993 RS prices, I sold my 993RS a couple of years before prices really took off. which makes me laugh when people pull out their crystal balls on PH and say this 911 will be worth more than that 911 in X+1n years time unless you manipulate a market there's no way of predicting what a car will be worth

kayc said: 'money borrowing badge -jockeys' brilliant

[quote=sleep envy unless you manipulate a market there's no way of predicting what a car will be worth [/quote] Very true

GT Two said: Weight difference between a GT2 and GT3 is 110kg roughly Slippy do you miss owning a GT2? Yes Hangs head in shame Edited by Slippydiff on Tuesday 5th January 18:05

Slippydiff said: GT Two said: Weight difference between a GT2 and GT3 is 110kg roughly Slippy do you miss owning a GT2? Yes Hangs head in shame Edited by Slippydiff on Tuesday 5th January 18:05 You think you will own another?

David Hype said: AL001 said: 996 Mk1 = 103 996RS = 117 996 Mk2 = 221 But how many really good examples are left from these limited production numbers? I've got one. Makes me smile when I see those production figures - the Mk1 and RS guys always put rarity up as a major reason why their cars are more special than the Mk2. As bad as us lot going on about our better engines / boxes / brakes / interior and quality of finish. There I go again. All 996 GT3s are great - and the version you own is the best. Pax?

^^^ ^^^

GT Two said: Slippydiff said: GT Two said: Weight difference between a GT2 and GT3 is 110kg roughly Slippy do you miss owning a GT2? Yes Hangs head in shame Edited by Slippydiff on Tuesday 5th January 18:05 You think you will own another? I'm trying very hard to resist, but the lure is strong . . . (fortunately I've a project I need to get sorted and sold before the finance would be available to buy another, so the urge might pass) who an I kidding ?

DanH said: PaulRothwell said: Its about time that supposed specialists stopped harping on about the 996 GT2 being "just a mildly modified 996 Turbo" some differences are: . adjustable suspension with a different wheelbase than the Turbo . modified airflow through radiators and oil coolers with exit at leading edge of front hood. . different engine block from standard turbo . rear wheels wider than standard turbo involvong significant bodywork alterations to fit . no four wheel drive . no traction control . approx 250kilos lighter than Turbo . bigger brakes . revised clutch . suspension approx 200mms lower . various aero mods to bodywork and underneath car . less sound deadening . no rear seats . no sunroof etc etc... etc etc Most of that stuff is pretty negligible so its a bit sad there aren't more significant differences. They didn't put nearly enough resources into developing the 6GT2, which they have rectified with the superlative 7GT2. 250kg my arse.

barchetta_boy said: DanH said: PaulRothwell said: Its about time that supposed specialists stopped harping on about the 996 GT2 being "just a mildly modified 996 Turbo" some differences are: . adjustable suspension with a different wheelbase than the Turbo . modified airflow through radiators and oil coolers with exit at leading edge of front hood. . different engine block from standard turbo . rear wheels wider than standard turbo involvong significant bodywork alterations to fit . no four wheel drive . no traction control . approx 250kilos lighter than Turbo . bigger brakes . revised clutch . suspension approx 200mms lower . various aero mods to bodywork and underneath car . less sound deadening . no rear seats . no sunroof etc etc... etc etc Most of that stuff is pretty negligible so its a bit sad there aren't more significant differences. They didn't put nearly enough resources into developing the 6GT2, which they have rectified with the superlative 7GT2. 250kg my arse. 996 GT2 1440 kg 996 Turbo 1540 kg

Slippydiff said: (fortunately I've a project I need to get sorted and sold before the finance would be available to buy another, so the urge might pass) lol.. snap !

what always amazes me is why its always the porsche forums that get hung up on this, mention any kind of investment thread or inter-model conflict & you've suddenly got yourself a 4 page thread ! this investment talk is largely a load of b ks though imho ok how many people actually doubled their money on a 964 rs? when you take into account the servicing, insurance & cost of finance the gains to be made are probably quite a lot smaller than you think. try not to think of certain evo journo's buying cars for 25 grand that are now worth 60! the reason for the jump in 64rs prices was the sudden explosion in popularity of track days,pure & simple.same as the 2.7rs, people suddenly cottoned on to the fact they could get into historic racing/rallying with them which suddenly made a rare expensive car into an extremely valuble one. don't expect a 96gt3 rs or otherwise to double in value for a very very long time not because they aren't great cars but because they aren't undervalued! imho they are priced correctly & if correctly maintained should see their prices stabalise at their present level for the next 5 to 10 years. ie buy wisely now & keep it in good condition & you shouldn't loose too much. just don't expect to pay off the mortgage on one

The point about investment for me is not necessarily to realise a significant amount of money, but rather to mimimise any loss, whilst at the same time enjoying a nice car. I've had my 996 C2 for virtually 3 years, and in that time, it has dropped from the £26K purchase price to around (I guess) about £14K. At the time, I could have purchased a 996 GT3 MKII for around 48K, which would now be worth about £38K -£40K. So, in the same period, the gt3 would have been a £2K to £4K better bet. If, from now on (barring any further global finanical catastrophes), the 996 GT3 will only drop (say) another £5K in 3 years, then that would be a better bet than purchasing (say) a 997 C2S for £35K and finding its only worth £25K in years. Edited by Diesel130 on Tuesday 5th January 21:48

Diesel130 said: The point about investment for me is not necessarily to realise a significant amount of money, but rather to mimimise any loss, whilst at the same time enjoying a nice car. I've had my 996 C2 for virtually 3 years, and in that time, it has dropped from the £26K purchase price to around (I guess) about £14K. At the time, I could have purchased a 996 GT3 MKII for around 48K, which would now be worth about £38K -£40K. So, in the same period, the gt3 would have been a £2K to £4K better bet. If, from now on (barring any further global finanical catastrophes), the 996 GT3 will only drop (say) another £5K in 3 years, then that would be a better bet than purchasing (say) a 997 C2S for £35K and finding its only worth £25K in years. Edited by Diesel130 on Tuesday 5th January 21:48 You are forgetting the extra maintenance costs - over 3 years that will easily burn that 2-4K you lost on the C2. GT3s eat brakes and suspension - if used properly - and the parts carry a significant premium. GT3s are expensive if you keep them in tip top condition.

Diesel130 said: The point about investment for me is not necessarily to realise a significant amount of money, but rather to mimimise any loss, whilst at the same time enjoying a nice car. I've had my 996 C2 for virtually 3 years, and in that time, it has dropped from the £26K purchase price to around (I guess) about £14K. At the time, I could have purchased a 996 GT3 MKII for around 48K, which would now be worth about £38K -£40K. So, in the same period, the gt3 would have been a £2K to £4K better bet. If, from now on (barring any further global finanical catastrophes), the 996 GT3 will only drop (say) another £5K in 3 years, then that would be a better bet than purchasing (say) a 997 C2S for £35K and finding its only worth £25K in years. Edited by Diesel130 on Tuesday 5th January 21:48 Right but if you'd invested the 22k difference and got a modest 1.5% p/a return on it, after 3 years you'd have 25.5k. So thats another 3.5k opportunity cost on top of the depreciation on the GT3.

jonny finance said: A few times over the last 10 years I have really tried to fall in love and subseqently buy a 996 inc GT2 GT3 and RS and while they did offer a good drive they felt no better screwed together or finished than a run of the mill car. For me unforgiveable. I beg to differ, but for road use the 996 GT3 and its ilk is massively over-engineered for road use. I don't think the sound the door makes when shutting is indicative of its build quality despite what the magazines say. The only thing that betters it for "velly tough old boot"ness is an early 80s VW Jetta diesel.

drmark said: Diesel130 said: The point about investment for me is not necessarily to realise a significant amount of money, but rather to mimimise any loss, whilst at the same time enjoying a nice car. I've had my 996 C2 for virtually 3 years, and in that time, it has dropped from the £26K purchase price to around (I guess) about £14K. At the time, I could have purchased a 996 GT3 MKII for around 48K, which would now be worth about £38K -£40K. So, in the same period, the gt3 would have been a £2K to £4K better bet. If, from now on (barring any further global finanical catastrophes), the 996 GT3 will only drop (say) another £5K in 3 years, then that would be a better bet than purchasing (say) a 997 C2S for £35K and finding its only worth £25K in years. Edited by Diesel130 on Tuesday 5th January 21:48 You are forgetting the extra maintenance costs - over 3 years that will easily burn that 2-4K you lost on the C2. GT3s eat brakes and suspension - if used properly - and the parts carry a significant premium. GT3s are expensive if you keep them in tip top condition. A valid point IF you use them on track, but not all do. A GT3/RS/GT2 used for high days and holidays on the road won't eat brakes tyres etc. And as Diesel said, they will retain their value better than the equivalent 996 Turbo, 997 C2S, 996 C4S etc

Who cares? Any GT3 is

David Hype said: Who cares? possibly those with personal loans to pay off

mayes911 said: in 10 years time there could be no more petrol /£5 a litre or the gov. will have some supertax for anything putting out more than c02 99gkm therefor our cars will become absolutley worthless.imho no car is going to be an investment anymore take a look at ferraris use to have rock solid residuals f430 for 65k and dropping. At least one of the advantage of the GT3 is that it would still be an asset even if it were effectively banned from the road, the motor sport history of the model means it s likely to end up being valued as a historic GT racer. I don't know if it will be an investment but I suspect even the worst case scenario is that buying a 996 GT3 will not cost that much in depreciation. I've started saving....

Diesel130 said: I've had my 996 C2 for virtually 3 years, and in that time, it has dropped from the £26K purchase price to around (I guess) about £14K. At the time, I could have purchased a 996 GT3 MKII for around 48K, which would now be worth about £38K -£40K.[/footnote] Same here. Bought mine in 2006 for just shy of £25k. Were Mk2's really going for sub £50k in 2006??? As for comments regarding old vs new build..blah blah.. I don't buy any of it. A 40 yearold GT3 will be in a lot better shape compared with similary aged 911s today. They're over engineered and far less likely to rot!

Sold my 1 owner GT3 recently for £38 k and believ they are a steal as just in France and see they are about 60k Euro for same car ....... maybe we will be convering to left hand drive , strange but it was the other way around a few years ago . In fact a friend bought a left hand car at the same time ( for 10 less) and now has sold it for 15 k more as it si a left hooker????

996Weissach said: Diesel130 said: I've had my 996 C2 for virtually 3 years, and in that time, it has dropped from the £26K purchase price to around (I guess) about £14K. At the time, I could have purchased a 996 GT3 MKII for around 48K, which would now be worth about £38K -£40K.[/footnote] Same here. Bought mine in 2006 for just shy of £25k. Were Mk2's really going for sub £50k in 2006??? As for comments regarding old vs new build..blah blah.. I don't buy any of it. A 40 yearold GT3 will be in a lot better shape compared with similary aged 911s today. They're over engineered and far less likely to rot! They are over engineered in comparison to what?? Previous Porsche's - afraid not! They might have race derived engine/running gear etc which obviously gives a first class drive but what has always concerned me with the 996 is the body these parts are plonked into.. You have a really good poke about and you will understand. Parts and bits you dont necessarily see. Where once 'over engineered' was common place like under the carpets (now naff too!) around the luggage compartment and in particular the plastics now used - My eggs are supplied in superior quality plastic. I remember going to see a few nearly new 996 turbo's and GT3's and thinking 'hang on' this car is only 9 months to 18 months old with 2/3 thousand on the clock and there is rust on the bonnet catch and various other places - And these where garage queens!!

Me thinks old Lightweight/Blown Porkers make owner truly feel special - combination of looks, build, smell, rarity. Build and limited numbers being key.. I have owned blinking dozens of Porsches and it is always the older one's that play on your mind - Should never have sold! I have given the newer models a good going but for me they just ain't made like thier supposed to last..and for that reason they just ain't special, it's got to feel like it's going to last as long as me!! A few times over the last 10 years I have really tried to fall in love and subseqently buy a 996 inc GT2 GT3 and RS and while they did offer a good drive they felt no better screwed together or finished than a run of the mill car. For me unforgiveable. We all know other manufactures who have played the same game throwing cars together maximising return but at some point thing have to come full circle if the lust is to return.. I have just bought a perfect old Merc 190, don't need it, don't know what to do with it except to show anyone who is interested how cars where once made..Shutting the doors, fiddling with the overly engineered knobs and switches, admiring the 5 star hotel carpet and just sitting in it smelling the quality. It may be worth bugger all but it still feels special nearly 2 decades after it was built. For me the 996 in whatever guise never did and never will! Edited by jonny finance on Friday 8th January 18:04

jonny finance said: 996Weissach said: Diesel130 said: I've had my 996 C2 for virtually 3 years, and in that time, it has dropped from the £26K purchase price to around (I guess) about £14K. At the time, I could have purchased a 996 GT3 MKII for around 48K, which would now be worth about £38K -£40K.[/footnote] Same here. Bought mine in 2006 for just shy of £25k. Were Mk2's really going for sub £50k in 2006??? As for comments regarding old vs new build..blah blah.. I don't buy any of it. A 40 yearold GT3 will be in a lot better shape compared with similary aged 911s today. They're over engineered and far less likely to rot! They are over engineered in comparison to what?? Previous Porsche's - afraid not! They might have race derived engine/running gear etc which obviously gives a first class drive but what has always concerned me with the 996 is the body these parts are plonked into.. You have a really good poke about and you will understand. Parts and bits you dont necessarily see. Where once 'over engineered' was common place like under the carpets (now naff too!) around the luggage compartment and in particular the plastics now used - My eggs are supplied in superior quality plastic. I remember going to see a few nearly new 996 turbo's and GT3's and thinking 'hang on' this car is only 9 months to 18 months old with 2/3 thousand on the clock and there is rust on the bonnet catch and various other places - And these where garage queens!! Where were the cars at.....Boulby pot ash mine? It is fair to say that cars are not as 'solid' now as they were in 80's and early 90's - Mercs are another example of that, however, I think you are over egging the issue with your comments ref. egg trays!

jonny finance said: 996Weissach said: Diesel130 said: I've had my 996 C2 for virtually 3 years, and in that time, it has dropped from the £26K purchase price to around (I guess) about £14K. At the time, I could have purchased a 996 GT3 MKII for around 48K, which would now be worth about £38K -£40K.[/footnote] Same here. Bought mine in 2006 for just shy of £25k. Were Mk2's really going for sub £50k in 2006??? As for comments regarding old vs new build..blah blah.. I don't buy any of it. A 40 yearold GT3 will be in a lot better shape compared with similary aged 911s today. They're over engineered and far less likely to rot! They are over engineered in comparison to what?? Previous Porsche's - afraid not! They might have race derived engine/running gear etc which obviously gives a first class drive but what has always concerned me with the 996 is the body these parts are plonked into.. You have a really good poke about and you will understand. Parts and bits you dont necessarily see. Where once 'over engineered' was common place like under the carpets (now naff too!) around the luggage compartment and in particular the plastics now used - My eggs are supplied in superior quality plastic. I remember going to see a few nearly new 996 turbo's and GT3's and thinking 'hang on' this car is only 9 months to 18 months old with 2/3 thousand on the clock and there is rust on the bonnet catch and various other places - And these where garage queens!! In my experience the parts that matter - ie - the chassis and running are extremely well engineered. The chassis is lighter and has more torsional rigidity than the 993, the running gear is motor sport derived, the engine is incredibly over engineered and built to withstand 9000 rpm, the brakes are far better than the 993. I'm not sure which parts of the GT3 you feel are not of sufficient engineering standard.

Good man Rancey .... look forward to you peddling my MK1 Motorsport Build GT3 .... Now that's over-engineering?

hunter 66 said: Sold my 1 owner GT3 recently for £38 k and believ they are a steal as just in France and see they are about 60k Euro for same car ....... maybe we will be convering to left hand drive , strange but it was the other way around a few years ago . In fact a friend bought a left hand car at the same time ( for 10 less) and now has sold it for 15 k more as it si a left hooker???? Yes indeed. Many thanks I'm very pleased with it! No doubt your sometime co driver is sunning himself in the Caribbean on strength of the profit he made from the deal and the sale of my 964RS!

That was a lovely 964RS ..... absolute Virgin ..... total factory settings.

jonny finance said: 996Weissach said: Diesel130 said: I've had my 996 C2 for virtually 3 years, and in that time, it has dropped from the £26K purchase price to around (I guess) about £14K. At the time, I could have purchased a 996 GT3 MKII for around 48K, which would now be worth about £38K -£40K.[/footnote] Same here. Bought mine in 2006 for just shy of £25k. Were Mk2's really going for sub £50k in 2006??? As for comments regarding old vs new build..blah blah.. I don't buy any of it. A 40 yearold GT3 will be in a lot better shape compared with similary aged 911s today. They're over engineered and far less likely to rot! They are over engineered in comparison to what?? Previous Porsche's - afraid not! They might have race derived engine/running gear etc which obviously gives a first class drive but what has always concerned me with the 996 is the body these parts are plonked into.. You have a really good poke about and you will understand. Parts and bits you dont necessarily see. Where once 'over engineered' was common place like under the carpets (now naff too!) around the luggage compartment and in particular the plastics now used - My eggs are supplied in superior quality plastic. I remember going to see a few nearly new 996 turbo's and GT3's and thinking 'hang on' this car is only 9 months to 18 months old with 2/3 thousand on the clock and there is rust on the bonnet catch and various other places - And these where garage queens!! It's interesting how you consider superficial, not structural or functional components to be indicative of engineering depth. Anyway, the plastics are more than adequate for the job and are in fact of higher quality than my former BMW. And yes I do know what's underneath the carpets and it's a body of great structural integrity. A quantum leap in beam/flexural (82%) and torsional (49%) rigidity over the previous generation, let alone in comparison with a much earlier 'over engineered' Porsche. It uses high tensile steels among which are boron. It is also galvanised both sides, throughout the entire shell. Underbody sealing and plastic panelling add to defend the shell from impacts and accumulation of dirt in difficult to reach areas. This is a far greater depth of engineering than can be claimed for earlier Porsches. It is without doubt a more resilient, longer lasting shell. I have no doubt an original 40 year-old 996 shell will be in far better shape than that of a 40 year-old 911 today. Even though producing zero frontal lift, while the rear, 6kg of downforce at 200kph, and 13.5kg at 300kph, overall drag coefficient is a slippery 0.30. I'd say Porsche has spent significant time engineering the 996 and GT3's aerodynamics. A far cry from iron inserts bolted behind the bumper on earlier cars! The running gear is racing strength, with subframes and suspension arms created from aluminium alloy, and therefore have inherent corrosion resistance since the alloy oxidises on the surface and creates its own barrier to the elements. Engine wise, it's the finest engine ever to grace a 911. Along with the gearbox, is racing strength. The hybrid water cooling providing a stable running temperature which aids in its longevity, i.e. no sloppy valve guides after 60k miles as per some early motors. To my thinking over engineering is not about the superficial cappings/linings, but structural and functional areas. The GT3 is in no doubt over engineered in the structural and functional.

jonny finance said: 996Weissach said: Diesel130 said: I've had my 996 C2 for virtually 3 years, and in that time, it has dropped from the £26K purchase price to around (I guess) about £14K. At the time, I could have purchased a 996 GT3 MKII for around 48K, which would now be worth about £38K -£40K.[/footnote] Same here. Bought mine in 2006 for just shy of £25k. Were Mk2's really going for sub £50k in 2006??? As for comments regarding old vs new build..blah blah.. I don't buy any of it. A 40 yearold GT3 will be in a lot better shape compared with similary aged 911s today. They're over engineered and far less likely to rot! They are over engineered in comparison to what?? Previous Porsche's - afraid not! They might have race derived engine/running gear etc which obviously gives a first class drive but what has always concerned me with the 996 is the body these parts are plonked into.. You have a really good poke about and you will understand. Parts and bits you dont necessarily see. Where once 'over engineered' was common place like under the carpets (now naff too!) around the luggage compartment and in particular the plastics now used - My eggs are supplied in superior quality plastic. I remember going to see a few nearly new 996 turbo's and GT3's and thinking 'hang on' this car is only 9 months to 18 months old with 2/3 thousand on the clock and there is rust on the bonnet catch and various other places - And these where garage queens!! Stick to finance Jonny - ye know not your ar*e from your elbow.

drmark said: Stick to finance Jonny - ye know not your ar*e from your elbow. Lol.. just as well his 'over engineered' Porsche uses bakelite and shag pile carpet - they're the only things holding the rotten shell together! My '98 Carrera doesn't have a bubble of rust anywhere and it's spent most of its 12 years living outside. 9-18 month old GT2s/GT3s with rust. Utter tosh.

TGJR said: It is fair to say that cars are not as 'solid' now as they were in 80's and early 90's - Mercs are another example of that, however, I think you are over egging the issue with your comments ref. egg trays! Trying to be a bit like Jeremy Clarkson & his comment on boot panel in the M3 CSL "Subsequently I tried the CSL version on the Isle of Man. This had a carbon fibre roof, a sequential gearbox, a boot floor made from cardboard and a big nostril in the front".

Lowndes, I miss my GT3 far more than when I sold my 64 RS previuosly as I felt it obviously more refined on road yet more demanding when on track , alas I only did 2 or three track days due to racing commitments...ah car dealers always in the carribean at this time of year

Quite agree about the comparison between the 964RS and GT3. Although I have considerable affection for the RS, and am glad to have owned one, the GT3 suits me better (note I avoided saying it is a better car!). It combines being a perfectly acceptable road car with a serious challenge at the track and for the money it is hard to see how it could be bettered. But returning to the question inherent in the OP, is it an investment? Personally I'm not so sure, especially if you take all costs into account. Doubtless it will lose money more slowly than a new car but I will be surprised if ownership brings any financial benefits...but that won't stop it being a whole lot of fun. PS Our car dealer acquaintance did say he might join me at the track one day. Perhaps you could come too and we can all take the old girl for a bit of a canter.

i think the sunday times is off the mark here, cars are bought with the heart......can a car really be considered an investment when you factor in running costs, storage costs and the cost of your own time, i think you always break even or worse especially in this climate with rising fuel costs and government regulation...

carreraboy said: Good man Rancey .... look forward to you peddling my MK1 Motorsport Build GT3 .... Now that's over-engineering? Looking forward to it myself.. Brands again?

Mclovin said: i think the sunday times is off the mark here, cars are bought with the heart......can a car really be considered an investment when you factor in running costs, storage costs and the cost of your own time, i think you always break even or worse especially in this climate with rising fuel costs and government regulation... With the exception of my ex-Wife's 993 Tip C2, I have never lost money on an air-cooled 911 in over 33 years of ownership. In particular the 964RS has proved a real banker over the last five years. Each time reinvesting, and now putting some spare into a long time itch MK1 GT3. But this is strangely not the reason I approach the purchase, to make money, but more importantly not to lose. Departure into the GT3 World will hopefully not prove me wrong. I think I have bought right. There are many Ferrari owners out there who pile in fortunes because there cars are worth bigger fortunes. At the end of the day, you have to enter the purchase at the right time and right product. That is he skill of the seasoned buyer with years of experience.

996 GT3 MK1's have been the same money for two years, is that not a sign that they have bottomed out. In this era of speed cameras and social responsibility, surely cars that dont depreciate can be considered as viable buys as weekend toys by the aspiring track day warriors. For that reason the Times's investment projection must carry some merit, surely?

carreraboy said: Mclovin said: i think the sunday times is off the mark here, cars are bought with the heart......can a car really be considered an investment when you factor in running costs, storage costs and the cost of your own time, i think you always break even or worse especially in this climate with rising fuel costs and government regulation... With the exception of my ex-Wife's 993 Tip C2, I have never lost money on an air-cooled 911 in over 33 years of ownership. In particular the 964RS has proved a real banker over the last five years. Each time reinvesting, and now putting some spare into a long time itch MK1 GT3. But this is strangely not the reason I approach the purchase, to make money, but more importantly not to lose. Departure into the GT3 World will hopefully not prove me wrong. I think I have bought right. There are many Ferrari owners out there who pile in fortunes because there cars are worth bigger fortunes. At the end of the day, you have to enter the purchase at the right time and right product. That is he skill of the seasoned buyer with years of experience. I have to agree, though my main point in my earlier post is that you should only put money in a car with the faint hope of only breaking even. Yes many people sink money in cars & yes they expect to see a return if they purchase wisely but remember: you buy a car as an impulse toy,weather you explain it to yourself (or your partner) this way or not. You buy your house (for instance) for the same reason,you like it,it's in a good area & if you put that exstension on the back you mighht make some money. However! They ain't making anymore 996 gt3s at wessach so they must go up in value? But having said that there are more people being born every day than there are houses being built,so they must go up in value too yeah? So, which will you see the best return on?well how many people are going to want a gt3mk1 compared to how many people are going to want a house?buying cars as an investment is lunacy! If you bought a 964rs at 25 grand & sold it for 60 whilst only spending 8 grand on maintenance then good for you but don't expect it to happen to every limited build Porsche out there. If it was that simple we'd all have a couple in the garage! Buy well,look after it & most of all enjoy it,I'd rarther have the memories of a nurburgring trip in the mind than 5 grand profit in the bank!

Happen to be in the property game, tempted to turn my expertise elsewhere!

PPPPPP said: TGJR said: It is fair to say that cars are not as 'solid' now as they were in 80's and early 90's - Mercs are another example of that, however, I think you are over egging the issue with your comments ref. egg trays! Trying to be a bit like Jeremy Clarkson & his comment on boot panel in the M3 CSL "Subsequently I tried the CSL version on the Isle of Man. This had a carbon fibre roof, a sequential gearbox, a boot floor made from cardboard and a big nostril in the front". Ok all points taken!!!!!! Have to admit I do the same, get defensive when someone runs down what ever I might own at the time. Can't be helped - like what you have not what you want... Call me anything you want but please no references to mimicking J C, can't stand the man or his show.. My comment on plastics resembling the quality of egg boxes is directly aimed at one part on the 996. The interior I could live with, generally accepting the low rent furnishing and fixtures. The plastic section directly below the windscreen which also makes up the front luggage surround truly is the naffest material ever used in a car. To my horror when I got my 997 RS it was even worse, I had to take it off once and it cracked as easily as the sugar shell coating on a Cadbury's mini 'egg'. No offense or b hing towards the 996, as I have said they do offer so many positive things inc a first class drive and one day I will no doubt find one in my garage. I don't think whatever car you own will be 100% perfect in all areas some having strengths in different places. Please don't think of me as some car building quality freak - my present car is a 328 and the one before that a Diablo 6L which although not that badly screwed together are a far cry from the German stuff.

No matter what we say ...the engine is still hanging out over the rear wheels!

Lowndes, I would love that , the only reason for sale was twin boys and no back seat.Without a road Porsche now for 1st time in 20 years ,,,,,the pain.. But am happy car is in a great home... Peter

TGJR said: I tend to agree that the mk1 GT3 will lead the way with strong values in a few years time, however, I think the mk 2 will be not far behind. Lets say, for arguments sake, that in 2018 a good mk1 GT3 with 60k miles on the clock is fetching £50k. Surely some potential buyers will look at the mk2 as an option if they are priced at say circa £40k? It's a tough call to predict prices in 5-10 years time but of all the Porsches built in the past 10 years and currently available for less than £60k my order of 'investment' potential would be: 1) 996 GT3 RS 2) 996 GT3 Mk1 3) 996 GT3 mk2 4) 996 GT2 5) 997 GT3 (RS not available at sub £60k yet) 6) 996 Turbo Interesting to look back on this old post of mine from 2010 when I owned a 996 GT3 mk2. I sold it about 18 months later (don't ask how much!) and I am now in the market again for a 996 GT3 or 997 GT3 but looking at fairly stiff prices. I reckon my top 6 investment cars in 2010 would have done pretty well and if I had bought one of each then and sold them now I would have a clear profit of about £200-250K. If only........

TGJR said: Interesting to look back on this old post of mine from 2010 when I owned a 996 GT3 mk2. I sold it about 18 months later (don't ask how much!) and I am now in the market again for a 996 GT3 or 997 GT3 but looking at fairly stiff prices. I reckon my top 6 investment cars in 2010 would have done pretty well and if I had bought one of each then and sold them now I would have a clear profit of about £200-250K. If only........ I sold mine for £38k but it don't make it a good car now it's £85k hence why I sold it !

Whichever pre-991 911 happens to be your bag, they ain't making it anymore and, mores the point, there's probably very little else available from new today that can tick all of the boxes for speed, handling, driver involvement, excitement and, perhaps most definitely, racing pedigree. New stuff is great, really good, but if the itch you have can only be scratched by a used car, you have a dwindling choice but not, necessarily, a dwindling pool of potential buyers.

Digga said: Whichever pre-991 911 happens to be your bag, they ain't making it anymore and, mores the point, there's probably very little else available from new today that can tick all of the boxes for speed, handling, driver involvement, excitement and, perhaps most definitely, racing pedigree. New stuff is great, really good, but if the itch you have can only be scratched by a used car, you have a dwindling choice but not, necessarily, a dwindling pool of potential buyers. Indeed, re new buyers. Picked up my new, to me, 996 GT3 Mk2 this afternoon Wonderful machine! They don't make 'em like they used to.

Snap. I'm picking up my new 996 GT3 mk2 clubsport tomorrow morning

I'm going to try & find mine when I get back home in a couple of weeks!!

LaSource said: Snap. I'm picking up my new 996 GT3 mk2 clubsport tomorrow morning Enjoy Hope it stops raining for you.

I find this very interesting. Having owned every variety of 964RS with the exception of the Touring, a 993RS, every 996GT3 and a 997GT3 --- whilst driving every other GT3 up to 991 including the famous 4.0L on track (yes it was great) --- I chipped them all to buy again the best 996 MkI GT3 CS RHD that I could find. It wasn't cheap, I may even have paid too much for it, but for me this is the car that best reflects the compact, visceral, tactile, playful, motorsport inspired essence of Porsche. It also has that ultra simple slightly old school hewn from granite feel which I adore. From all the old cars that I drove and improved, I decided to keep a very sweet non original numbers LHD 2.4S with the 915 box ... the last of the old-timers and not too expensive to use and in superb condition. Chalk and cheese, but what lovey cars and the best thing is that they are both so understated. Will I have made the best decision ? Who knows ? I sold the development 993RS Prototype and the 964RS NGT that was given to Ulrich Richter .. but I had to buy another 996 GT3 MkI CS .....

ChrisW. said: I find this very interesting. Having owned every variety of 964RS with the exception of the Touring, a 993RS, every 996GT3 and a 997GT3 --- whilst driving every other GT3 up to 991 including the famous 4.0L on track (yes it was great) --- I chipped them all to buy again the best 996 MkI GT3 CS RHD that I could find. It wasn't cheap, I may even have paid too much for it, but for me this is the car that best reflects the compact, visceral, tactile, playful, motorsport inspired essence of Porsche. It also has that ultra simple slightly old school hewn from granite feel which I adore. From all the old cars that I drove and improved, I decided to keep a very sweet non original numbers LHD 2.4S with the 915 box ... the last of the old-timers and not too expensive to use and in superb condition. Chalk and cheese, but what lovey cars and the best thing is that they are both so understated. Will I have made the best decision ? Who knows ? I sold the development 993RS Prototype and the 964RS NGT that was given to Ulrich Richter .. but I had to buy another 996 GT3 MkI CS ..... Every 6 months or so I come back to a 996.1 as the car that probably does it all for me .... still haven't bought one though. One day .....

ChrisW. said: I find this very interesting. Having owned every variety of 964RS with the exception of the Touring, a 993RS, every 996GT3 and a 997GT3 --- whilst driving every other GT3 up to 991 including the famous 4.0L on track (yes it was great) --- I chipped them all to buy again the best 996 MkI GT3 CS RHD that I could find. It wasn't cheap, I may even have paid too much for it, but for me this is the car that best reflects the compact, visceral, tactile, playful, motorsport inspired essence of Porsche. It also has that ultra simple slightly old school hewn from granite feel which I adore. From all the old cars that I drove and improved, I decided to keep a very sweet non original numbers LHD 2.4S with the 915 box ... the last of the old-timers and not too expensive to use and in superb condition. Chalk and cheese, but what lovey cars and the best thing is that they are both so understated. Will I have made the best decision ? Who knows ? I sold the development 993RS Prototype and the 964RS NGT that was given to Ulrich Richter .. but I had to buy another 996 GT3 MkI CS ..... Almost identical story - expect for me its the Mk2 that hits my sweet spot. I also cleared a few 'faster' things out and managed to buy the best 996 Mk2 GT3 CS RHD that I could find....also wasn't cheap...but had to be done.

Hoolio said: Enjoy Hope it stops raining for you. ...same to you!

I have also recently gone back to 996.1 GT3 cs after 997 3's.Interesting thread. Cheers Kevin

LaSource said: Snap. I'm picking up my new 996 GT3 mk2 clubsport tomorrow morning Ah hah! Surprised it took that long.

isaldiri said: Ah hah! Surprised it took that long. Haha. Yeah too right! Had to find the right one - which is getting harder and harder Tracked down a number of 'right ones' but owners not willing to part with them.

I couldn't possibly comment ! I only ever worried about the PCCB's on my MKII ... mine was Speed Yellow, a Cypriot car with very high spec. It cost me £62k new and stripped some of the pain out of the £25k hit I took on my M3 CSL ... I sold it almost two years later and paid £10k extra for an extremely low mile high spec 996GT3RS --- a red one. Maybe I should have kept that but, I do love the MkI CS ... It's been a great journey which I hope with the GT4RS might continue ...

Still got mine 11 years and counting......38k miles and as sharp as a new pin.....just had new tyres and a 48k mile service at Tonbrige.....it feels so mechanical so sharp and yet so tactile....I love the way it bounces and skits about on the road (Track geo) it reminds you not to take liberties...and the noise when it hits 8000 RPM through the M&M exhaust will always cause me to grin from ear to ear every single time I'm only the second owner and the car is as honest as the day is long it's never been painted as the stone chips and discoloured paint around the front top radiator grilles and the wearing side decals will corroborate.....and this is exactly how it will stay and I will continue to drive it and enjoy it for all the reasons I've just mentioned (although alas not on track anymore as the noise police have done me I mean what's wrong with 110db ) anyway it's a great drive for sure it's such a good car that at this present time even £200k wouldn't prise it from my grubby mitts....now that's car love

Noisy day tomorrow PCGB .... my RS makes 127 DB drive by

I'm booked into the PEC GT Experience in a few weeks time. Very much looking forward to sampling a few different variants in an environment where I can get to feel what the car and drivetrain do, without worry about speed limits etc. I'm going into it with an open mind, but under the assumption a 997 GT3 will tick more boxes for me than a 991, but we'll see. My thoughts are split two ways: Trade up, in one, BIG step, to a 99x GT3 of some sort (current favourite being 997.2 GT3), or Turn my 996 turbo into a track slag adapted to my own preferences and keep it for good. A lot depends on how I take to a revy, as opposed to boosted engine. My previous track day background was, for years, with TVRs, so the nature of the turbo Mezger does suit my experience and I wonder if I'll adapt to an engine that wants and needs to be revved beyond 6,000 rpm....

Tyre pressures, oil level, windscreen washer level and coolant have been checked. The harnesses dropped behind the seats, the nose pointed towards Dover and we are about to embark on a mini Euro road trip. Will be seeing Porsche and Mercedes Museums, BMW Welt, driving through Schwarzwald, the Silvretta pass, Der Grossglockner and a few other passes as well as visiting friends in Colmar. And when we get back next Monday, she will have a 3 day "rest" before going to Le Mans for a track day on Saturday. Simple enough that I look after it, modern enough that even Mrs Cheb loves it...

Cant blame you Chris. Any 996 GT3 - you can't go wrong. I drove a 996RS for a potential buyer on Saturday. First time i'd driven one in probably 2 years. I'd forgotten just how good these cars are. Modern pace but with levels of engagement that no modern car can come any way near. For sheer involvement and reward they are pretty much the perfect drivers car. I'd be happy to have any 996 GT3 in my garage.

I'm taking the MkI to Silverstone for the Classic on Saturday and Sunday --- and I'm at Donnington in the GT4 tomorrow ---

Steve Rance said: Cant blame you Chris. Any 996 GT3 - you can't go wrong. I drove a 996RS for a potential buyer on Saturday. First time i'd driven one in probably 2 years. I'd forgotten just how good these cars are. Modern pace but with levels of engagement that no modern car can come any way near. For sheer involvement and reward they are pretty much the perfect drivers car. I'd be happy to have any 996 GT3 in my garage. Need to hook up and talk 996RS setup at some point please! Sorry to take so long

Steve Rance said: Cant blame you Chris. Any 996 GT3 - you can't go wrong. I drove a 996RS for a potential buyer on Saturday. First time i'd driven one in probably 2 years. I'd forgotten just how good these cars are. Modern pace but with levels of engagement that no modern car can come any way near. For sheer involvement and reward they are pretty much the perfect drivers car. I'd be happy to have any 996 GT3 in my garage. Don't tell me you sold your car ?!

GT3-RS said: Still got mine 11 years and counting......38k miles and as sharp as a new pin.....just had new tyres and a 48k mile service at Tonbrige.....it feels so mechanical so sharp and yet so tactile....I love the way it bounces and skits about on the road (Track geo) it reminds you not to take liberties...and the noise when it hits 8000 RPM through the M&M exhaust will always cause me to grin from ear to ear every single time I'm only the second owner and the car is as honest as the day is long it's never been painted as the stone chips and discoloured paint around the front top radiator grilles and the wearing side decals will corroborate.....and this is exactly how it will stay and I will continue to drive it and enjoy it for all the reasons I've just mentioned (although alas not on track anymore as the noise police have done me I mean what's wrong with 110db ) anyway it's a great drive for sure it's such a good car that at this present time even £200k wouldn't prise it from my grubby mitts....now that's car love Seen your car around in the past - mega cars. 11 years, good effort, but then why sell a 996 RS unless you have to - nothing else really hits the same spot !

Steve maybe a trip up to Donny tomorrow ? will be good to see you and will have some nice loud toys there ...

Back in 2010 I had a 996.1 GT3 sold it in 2012, Cayman S, Cayman R in the middle now back in a 996.1 CS in SY with a K400. Love it to bits, only car I would change to is a 997.1 RS, (orange/black or white) but as funds will never allow, my 996.1 sits in my garage coming out on sunny days and over to Europe 2 few times a year. I have never driven a 996.2 GT3, be great to drive them back to back..

seawise said: GT3-RS said: Still got mine 11 years and counting......38k miles and as sharp as a new pin.....just had new tyres and a 48k mile service at Tonbrige.....it feels so mechanical so sharp and yet so tactile....I love the way it bounces and skits about on the road (Track geo) it reminds you not to take liberties...and the noise when it hits 8000 RPM through the M&M exhaust will always cause me to grin from ear to ear every single time I'm only the second owner and the car is as honest as the day is long it's never been painted as the stone chips and discoloured paint around the front top radiator grilles and the wearing side decals will corroborate.....and this is exactly how it will stay and I will continue to drive it and enjoy it for all the reasons I've just mentioned (although alas not on track anymore as the noise police have done me I mean what's wrong with 110db ) anyway it's a great drive for sure it's such a good car that at this present time even £200k wouldn't prise it from my grubby mitts....now that's car love Seen your car around in the past - mega cars. 11 years, good effort, but then why sell a 996 RS unless you have to - nothing else really hits the same spot ! absolutley....definitely not selling.....nobody will want mine anyway....it's as Porsche intended lightweight ....No AC....all it's got is leccy windows ABS and power steering (I think)......LOL.....a true lightweight.....and for the techno beards....40kg lighter than one with AC.....just saying maybe we should have a Kent 96RS mini meet for pint and spot the difference Edited by GT3-RS on Tuesday 25th July 11:32

GT3-RS said: absolutley....definitely not selling.....nobody will want mine anyway....it's as Porsche intended lightweight ....No AC....all it's got is leccy windows ABS and power steering (I think)......LOL.....a true lightweight.....and for the techno beards....40kg lighter than one with AC.....just saying maybe we should have a Kent 96RS mini meet for pint and spot the difference Edited by GT3-RS on Tuesday 25th July 11:32 good spec imo, annoys me that everyone specs these cars with creature comforts

GT3-RS said: absolutley....definitely not selling.....nobody will want mine anyway....it's as Porsche intended lightweight ....No AC....all it's got is leccy windows ABS and power steering (I think)......LOL.....a true lightweight.....and for the techno beards....40kg lighter than one with AC.....just saying maybe we should have a Kent 96RS mini meet for pint and spot the difference Edited by GT3-RS on Tuesday 25th July 11:32 The main reason nobody will want it is because it is one of the blue ones

GT3-RS said: absolutley....definitely not selling.....nobody will want mine anyway....it's as Porsche intended lightweight ....No AC....all it's got is leccy windows ABS and power steering (I think)......LOL.....a true lightweight.....and for the techno beards....40kg lighter than one with AC.....just saying maybe we should have a Kent 96RS mini meet for pint and spot the difference Edited by GT3-RS on Tuesday 25th July 11:32 Good idea - alas mine is slow version, red and with a/c. The first 96 RS i had was similar to yours (blue, no a/c, carbon ceramics as well) and MM410, proper howler, should have bought it back when a trader was struggling to shift it at shade below £50 quid. Alas that ship has sailed.

seawise said: Good idea - alas mine is slow version, red and with a/c. The first 96 RS i had was similar to yours (blue, no a/c, carbon ceramics as well) and MM410, proper howler, should have bought it back when a trader was struggling to shift it at shade below £50 quid. Alas that ship has sailed. If only we could see into the future!

seawise said: Good idea - alas mine is slow version, red and with a/c. The first 96 RS i had was similar to yours (blue, no a/c, carbon ceramics as well) and MM410, proper howler, should have bought it back when a trader was struggling to shift it at shade below £50 quid. Alas that ship has sailed. Mine also red with air con. Hell, it even has a passenger seat!

AndrewD said: Mine also red with air con. Hell, it even has a passenger seat! Excellent addition to your fleet of fantastic drivers cars !

seawise said: Don't tell me you sold your car ?! Which one ??

I've had my Mk1 clubsport for nearly 10 yrs now Nothing can touch the visceral analog feel of this car. Not using it much now though which is a shameful embarrassment!!

mike58 said: I've had my Mk1 clubsport for nearly 10 yrs now Nothing can touch the visceral analog feel of this car. Not using it much now though which is a shameful embarrassment!! Beautiful! I take it this must be the one and only C16 RHD white mk1?

New driveshafts for 96 RS , now on board being shipped to the US .... for Daytona and Sebring ...

I've just agreed a purchase of a MK1 996 GT3, it's going to be a long 3 weeks!!

purchased on your 996th post!

That looks great, I hope you enjoy every mile. I looked at the silver club sport one that was the press car but wifey didn't like the cage and nomex seats (evo had a great picture of it in their magazine), then looked at a lovely yellow comfort spec one but the trade in of my then 964 C4 got far to difficult so cooled on the idea before buying something else. The 996 GT3 itch is still present, so congrats at taking the plunge on that beauty.

Unique in so many ways. The clubsport homologated parts for the 996 Cup car, the RS for the 996 RSR race car. That linkage (I believe) holds mainly for the 996 variants. Neither factory spec was offered to the North American markets.

ditchvisitor said: I've just agreed a purchase of a MK1 996 GT3, it's going to be a long 3 weeks!! Congratulations! Lovely looking motor and, having been through similar myself within the last weeks, I can sympathise with your wait to collect. It will be worth it!

it looks as though the once unloved fired egg headlighted 996 911 GT3 variants are becoming very much en vogue reckon we need to have a Mk1 / Mk2 996 GT3 (RS / CS /Comfort) meet organised for next year either Brands, OPC Tonbridge (where ever) and a drive out to the coast somewhere see how many of each we can muster

GT3-RS said: it looks as though the once unloved fired egg headlighted 996 911 GT3 variants are becoming very much en vogue reckon we need to have a Mk1 / Mk2 996 GT3 (RS / CS /Comfort) meet organised for next year either Brands, OPC Tonbridge (where ever) and a drive out to the coast somewhere see how many of each we can muster Brands is 15mins away from me... What about the new OPC in Sidcup next to Tesco, which is due to open any time soon? Surely they would not mind, or perhaps the fried eggs would put them off?

This seems to evidence that the Mk1 996 GT3 was indeed built at Werk 1 in Weissach. http://www.artandrevs.com/porsche-996-gt3-cs/en/pr... After an area of Sport Prototypes in the 80s, the 90s saw the endurance motorsport dominated by the GT cars, many manufacturers developed GT1 and GT2 racers with the aim of winning Le Mans 24h race and the FIA–GT Championship. Porsche anticipated the creation of the GT3 category and launched a new sport version from its all new “996” in 1999. The new sport 911 was named “GT3” as a direct reference to its racing roots, its debut was at Geneva show where the first batch ( FIA requirement for 2000-GT2 regulation ) was immediately sold. The press was elogious, most of the connoisseurs electing it as the best sport car in the world. With only 360HP for it 3600cc engine it was capable of 302km/h and ran the standing km in only 23,3sec. The car was built around a 996 C4 chassis lowered by 30mm, using rigid suspension joints, with ride height adjustable shocks and sway bars. Basically most of the chassis elements including the braking system were common to the Cup version. The engine is the most interesting part from the car being actually based on the 911 GT1’ unit with separate crank case and cylinders. Indeed the engine is totally different from the 996 one, which uses common crankcase with the cylinders. The gearbox was an evolution from the 993 GT2 and received fantastic close ratios. The 996’ body was revised into the wind tunnel and fitted with a new bumper, sills and rear wing. The GT3 is a lovely car to drive, extremely quick and friendly it is also a very efficient on small roads with the narrow track. In 2000 an additional batch was built and received a few modifications to be more civilised. In total only 1838 “MKI” were reputably built and it should be noted that these are the only GT3 to have ever been built at Weissach at Porsche Motorsport, the next generations being assembled on the production line in Stuttgart. The car was also offered into “Club Sport” version which was more for track day used with roll cage, carbon bucket seats, stiffer suspension and mono mass flywheel, only 20% were ordered into this configuration. Driven by the great Walter Rohrl it scored 7,56 sec at the Nordschleif being the first production car to run below the mythical 8min. Just as the 2,7 RS did in 1973, the 996 GT3 in 1999 sat new standards into the history of sport cars. And this from iconic cars confirms how close in feel the 996 GT3 Mk1 is to the legendary 1973 Carrera RS: The Mk1 GT3 was the last of the hand built cars assembled in the Weissach motorsport factory being the basis for homologation of the GT race series (including le mans) as well as the Carrera Cup Series The spiritual successor the 73 Carrera RS, the Mk1 GT3 is seen by Porsche as being as significant as the 73 Carrera RS In speaking with the Porsche factory on a few other matters, we mentioned that we have a Porsche 996 GT3 Mk1. This extract from the email exchange aptly underlines the importance of the Mk1 CS in the opinion of a respected Porsche employee with strong racing experience. “This model will become THE real successor of Carrera 2.7 RS. The feeling while driving those two cars is quite similar. 964 RS is too hard, 993 RS is too less energetic.”

I wrote an article on the 993RS development car that I owned ... vin ended 90009 and when the 918 was launched Tony Hatter who was presenting this to UK CGT owners, found some time to help me out with the names of some of those who were included in the drivers log-book that came with the car. I also at the time owned a very nice 996.1 GT3CS and I asked him if it was true that they were manufactured at Weissach. His reply was that if not at Weissach it was certainly Werks1 ... ?? If you look at the production of the GT3R there were only 2 cars in 1999 and around 35 cars (from memory) in the years 2000 and 2001 ... long after the end of the 964RSR, 993RSR and later GT2 variants ... so maybe Weissach did have some capacity, but for all of them ? Edited by ChrisW. on Tuesday 18th November 17:37

ChrisW. said: I wrote an article on the 993RS development car that I owned ... vin ended 90009 and when the 918 was launched Tony Hatter who was presenting this to UK CGT owners, found some time to help me out with the names of some of those who were included in the drivers log-book that came with the car. I also at the time owned a very nice 996.1 GT3CS and I asked him if it was true that they were manufactured at Weissach. His reply was that if not at Weissach it was certainly Werks1 ... ?? If you look at the production of the GT3R there were only 2 cars in 1999 and around 35 cars (from memory) in the years 2000 and 2001 ... long after the end of the 964RSR, 993RSR and later GT2 variants ... so maybe Weissach did have some capacity, but for all of them ? Edited by ChrisW. on Tuesday 18th November 17:37 werks one is in stuttgart where they have been building sonderwunsch cars and other special bits,also built the merc 500 amongst others in w1. Weissach is miles away and have limited production facilities ,weissach were busy knocking out 996r,rs and rsr.

Beautiful cars. What were your impressions of the 993 and your 996 GT3 Mk1 CS. The Mk1 996 had the 993 GT2 gearbox. Tony Hatter was quite the man around the time, enjoying the rave reviews of his 993 design masterclass. So if anyone would have known it would be him. Maybe 1838 cars is not that much in the scheme of things for Weissach and remember these were done in batches over a 2 year period - at precisely the time when Porsche was ramping up across the mass market 996 range including the flagship 996 Turbo launch in 1999 and that would have taken up a huge amount of Stuttgart/ Zuffenhausen capacity. These small details matter and for me explain why the Mk1 feels so special, so analogue and so much like driving an air cooled 911.

I was with Tony this last weekend for a short period of time,a great designer. The man that would know is Roland Kussmaul,engineer,test driver and the racing manager at the time,i have chassis one 2001 gt3rs that he developed and used as a r&d car which were hand built at Weissach and hand stamped chassis numbers,unlike all Stuttgart cars that were tattooed chassis numbers.He has also produced a great book on these cars,weissach back then was way smaller and struggled to produce all the cup cars and the gt2/1 race cars etc. Having been to weissach several times years back,there was no big automated production lines and not a thousand elves to assemble/produce 1800 gt3 plus 50 plus gt3rs,and probably near or more 100 cup cars,plus spare bodyshells and spare running gear,plus development cars plus starting production of the next seasons racers.

It comes up so often but there's no way Weissach had the capacity to build all those mk1s.

But isn't Werks 1 something of a result ? Might the CS only have been built at Weissach ... around 200 from memory in LHD and RHD ?? Having said that it would have been much easier to build the more bespoke CS versions where the non CS versions were built ...

ChrisW. said: But isn't Werks 1 something of a result ? Might the CS only have been built at Weissach ... around 200 from memory in LHD and RHD ?? Having said that it would have been much easier to build the more bespoke CS versions where the non CS versions were built ... Chris you sound desperate if its tattoed its factory and easy to see.

Fascinating stuff Chris. We could do with tracking down Herr Kussmaul then to bottom this out. Might be one for Lee over at 9Werks. He loves a bit of homework and is a 996 GT3 owner himself and 996 super fan. Werk 1 might be the place. 1800-odd cars is not huge. Having been to Maranello it amazed me that they were regularly knocking at 4,000 cars a year from that workshop. The MB 500 E was hand assembled in the old Reutter building and all the development work at Weissach. They made 10,000 units over a 6 year period, averaging around 1,800 a year Glad to hear Tony H is still on good form. He once visited Porsche Bournemouth (Chapelgate) and was superb company. He and his good wife Vlaska (the designer of the iconic pasha seat pattern) are legends of Porsche folklore. My small collection of silver arrows could do with an early GT3. You can see I absolutely love 996s, incredible cars. Chris Edited by 911 Chris on Tuesday 18th November 22:41

Yellow491 said: ChrisW. said: But isn't Werks 1 something of a result ? Might the CS only have been built at Weissach ... around 200 from memory in LHD and RHD ?? Having said that it would have been much easier to build the more bespoke CS versions where the non CS versions were built ... Chris you sound desperate if its tattoed its factory and easy to see. It was a question like any other ... I have no skin in this game. I have provided the information I have in response to a resurrected question ... when you say "tattooed" ... is this the pin impression vin number on the shell of the car or ? A picture might help ??

ChrisW. said: It was a question like any other ... I have no skin in this game. I have provided the information I have in response to a resurrected question ... when you say "tattooed" ... is this the pin impression vin number on the shell of the car or ? A picture might help ?? Yes chris the pin tattooed number under the front hood by the rear of the dash, I watched them putting the numbers on cars.My 996gt3rs was handstamped as was your r at weissach unless it was built at the factory. The ruetter building got swallowed up on porsche purchase and all included with in werk1,i would assume the chassis number would have been tattooed even in werk one which is at the factory,but not sure,i can ask a friend who has three of the mercs built there. I was with a reutter family member on the weekend getting info on my ruetter built car,he has produced a great book on his family and the factory,this old building is big and could possibly accommodate a gt3 build,as the pics in the book show the 356 production line before being swallowed up. I will ask my mate bob for a pic of his vin for you,he has the ex richard burns mk1 gt3.

stuttgartmetal said: Bought my yellow 996.1 five years ago in september, and ive done 75 mile in it. Cocid came on strong, and I worked in ITU, so was a tad busy. May get it out in the summer. Speed yellow 47,000 MK2 GT£ brakes. I wouldnt be suprised is fooked. hahahaha Stunning car. But I have to ask, what became of the 993 C4S?

Bought my yellow 996.1 five years ago in september, and ive done 75 miles in it. Covid came on strong, and I worked in ITU, so was a tad busy. May get it out in the summer. Speed yellow 47,000 MK2 GT3 brakes. I wouldnt be suprised is fooked. hahahaha Edited by stuttgartmetal on Wednesday 25th February 12:40

The 993 C4S went to Aberdeen, and totally sorted. Irvs Restorations had it at some point, a VW specialist. Plate's been changed now, could be anywhere. Slippydiff said: Not sure what you're getting at johnny ? You say that you doubt that prices will go up, but then contradict yourself by saying that IF they do, it'll be the 996 GT3 RS and /or MK1 GT3s that do so because of their rarity, Motorsport dept build, first built etc (or more for the beards to talk about as you put it) Is that not what made the 964RS and 993RS increase in value ? (the 993 wasn't that much better than a 964 RS (in my very humble opinion) The 996 MK 1 GT3 was however (IMO) a quantum leap over the 993 RS. Whilst the MK2 996 GT3 was an improvement over the MK1 (it being sold in the US and ROW won't have helped it's residuals IMO ) The 997 GT3 is not "similar" to the 996, it was a massive improvement over any of the 996 versions (as a road car anyway) I'm not sure what numbers were built, but like the Mk2 996 GT3 I suspect too many to make it an appreciating classic. Only time will tell whether the RS version becomes sought after. Unless buyers perceptions have changed, I think the MK1 and RS versions of the 996 will follow those of the 964 and 993 RS. It may take longer (but I've not forgotten I bought my first 964 RS in 2001 for circa £23K . . . ) We're now ten/eleven years on from the launch of the MK1 GT3, with it's impossibly low ground clearance, lumpy tickover, "cr*p" brakes and characterless watercooled kettle of an engine. Let's revisit this thread in another ten years and see where the values have gone ay ? Lets. Edited by stuttgartmetal on Friday 2nd October 21:07

stuttgartmetal said: The 993 C4S went to Aberdeen, and totally sorted. Irvs Restorations had it at some point, a VW specialist. Plate's been changed now, could be anywhere. Slippydiff said: Not sure what you're getting at johnny ? You say that you doubt that prices will go up, but then contradict yourself by saying that IF they do, it'll be the 996 GT3 RS and /or MK1 GT3s that do so because of their rarity, Motorsport dept build, first built etc (or more for the beards to talk about as you put it) Is that not what made the 964RS and 993RS increase in value ? (the 993 wasn't that much better than a 964 RS (in my very humble opinion) The 996 MK 1 GT3 was however (IMO) a quantum leap over the 993 RS. Whilst the MK2 996 GT3 was an improvement over the MK1 (it being sold in the US and ROW won't have helped it's residuals IMO ) The 997 GT3 is not "similar" to the 996, it was a massive improvement over any of the 996 versions (as a road car anyway) I'm not sure what numbers were built, but like the Mk2 996 GT3 I suspect too many to make it an appreciating classic. Only time will tell whether the RS version becomes sought after. Unless buyers perceptions have changed, I think the MK1 and RS versions of the 996 will follow those of the 964 and 993 RS. It may take longer (but I've not forgotten I bought my first 964 RS in 2001 for circa £23K . . . ) We're now ten/eleven years on from the launch of the MK1 GT3, with it's impossibly low ground clearance, lumpy tickover, "cr*p" brakes and characterless watercooled kettle of an engine. Let's revisit this thread in another ten years and see where the values have gone ay ? Lets. Carry on, I'm all ears