String Theory Garage v Center Gravity Garage - Page 2 - Porsche General - PistonHeads UK

After a very enjoyable Alpine road trip, my return to the UK's disaster of a road network has been quite depressing. I am planning to take my 718 Spyder in to one or the other of the above for some fettling, as I find the low speed ride teeth-grittingly harsh on all the roads within a 20 minute radius of me, and I have no plans to go on track anywhere. Anyone have experiences of either, or better still both? TIA

Hi Just had my 993 setup at Center Gravity, third time I have used them. Very thorough process, check what you will do with the car, test drive, list characteristics (pulling to the left, slow turn in etc) and geometry check to resolve. Takes most of the day, but you come away confident the car is setup the best it can be. They don't have any "secret sauce" in terms of setup, they use a fairly standard (but expensive) Hunter machine and so the value add is the level of customer service, care they take over the process, and their knowledge specifically of Porsche suspension, and I have been very happy to take my car to them. If the issue is a harsh ride, is that more likely to be spring / damper rate related rather than geometry ?

Both are excellent. It's been a long time since I've had a car set up by CG, but they definitely know their onions, and any Google search will find a plethora of excellent reviews. By the same token, I've found Ben at String Theory excellent too. He did a full assessment on my car (as I needed a host of detailed measurements to enable the building of some expensive dampers) and he subsequently did a quick and dirty geo set up on the same car (Q&D because I just needed a baseline setup because I knew I'd be replacing the dampers and host of other suspension parts at a later date) Hence it wasn't worth investing in a full geo set up. I've popped in to chat with Ben on several occasions, he's always accommodating and very knowledgeable.

CoG know so much about Porsches, and so obsessive about detail and checks, I would always go there (they have set up / refreshed 3 or my cars so far).

You could also throw Spires into the mix as well, who are in a similar area and equally well reviewed.

bobthemonkey said: You could also throw Spires into the mix as well, who are in a similar area and equally well reviewed. I found the proprietor at Spires rather hard work and to my mind, a bit officious. Ben at ST and Chris at CG on the other hand, are much more open and approachable. Ben at ST runs a heavily tweaked 2WD 996 Turbo and is an ex- European drift champion. He thinks outside of the box, and knows his stuff. His advice has been incredibly helpful when it came to addressing some issues I hadn't foreseen with a set of custom sprung Ohlins Road & Track dampers I've specc'ed and fitted to a 996.

Sceptical about the extent to which a geo-set up can significantly improve the ride characteristics, without resorting to spring, damper and tyre changes. Unfortunately, the major culprit is the UK’s appalling roads.

Koln-RS said: Sceptical about the extent to which a geo-set up can significantly improve the ride characteristics, without resorting to spring, damper and tyre changes. Unfortunately, the major culprit is the UK’s appalling roads. Agreed - the roads are dire, however.... I am hoping that A/R bar setting to "soft" (from its current "medium) and adjustments to spring "pre-load" will result in less teeth-gritting at low speeds. Geo set-up has been checked by my local OPC and all settings are now "green".

I can only speak of my experiences with CG and they are experts in what they do - I’ve also heard ST are comparable & if the likes of Harry Metcalfe have used ST (I think on one of his Jags) with his knowledge of performance/classic cars that must say something. I think like everything it depends on what you ask them and what they’re working with as to the outcome transformation you’ll achieve.

Tony B2 said: After a very enjoyable Alpine road trip, my return to the UK's disaster of a road network has been quite depressing. I am planning to take my 718 Spyder in to one or the other of the above for some fettling, as I find the low speed ride teeth-grittingly harsh on all the roads within a 20 minute radius of me, and I have no plans to go on track anywhere. Anyone have experiences of either, or better still both? TIA If you’re in Hampshire save yourself a drive (and some cash) and have a chat with Ray at West Tuning on the circuit at Thruxton, he does the geo on all of my cars, did my 981 Spyder which had been set up by RPM before I bought it, a big improvement, I’m surprised ride is an issue , my 981 was quite compliant considering it was on 20 inch rims, your best bet maybe to try some 19 inch rims.

I was at CG on Thursday and there completely transformed my 991.1 so I can highly recommend them

Center Gravity transformed my 981 GT4 earlier this year, therefore I would recommend them and both Chris and Pete work very closely with you to achieve what you want out of the car. I had Chris work only car whilst Pete, his son in law, also made some suggestions whilst also working on another car. To overcome your hard ride I do think you\ll need a little more than just a geo set up. I would call both CG and ST and discuss with both of them what you want to achieve. I chose to use CG as they have a wealth of knowledge on setting up a plethora of Porsche cars.

Koln-RS said: Sceptical about the extent to which a geo-set up can significantly improve the ride characteristics, without resorting to spring, damper and tyre changes. Unfortunately, the major culprit is the UK’s appalling roads. Seriously can be night and day. CG did my old 996 turbo and geo, plus a few bits (too mounts) made enormous difference. You need to give them the idea of what you want from a car. They are incredibly thorough and highly effective. Equally, I also hear good things of String Theory. My personal choice for my current GT3 is Sports & Classic, mainly because they’ve set up and serviced everything else on the car and we (the a and me) are able to get things working exactly as we want them. On that tack, you could add in a few other decent indies; Fearnsport, RPM, JZM, 9e.

Tony B2 said: After a very enjoyable Alpine road trip, my return to the UK's disaster of a road network has been quite depressing. I am planning to take my 718 Spyder in to one or the other of the above for some fettling, as I find the low speed ride teeth-grittingly harsh on all the roads within a 20 minute radius of me, and I have no plans to go on track anywhere. Anyone have experiences of either, or better still both? TIA Hi, I've had both my 718 Spyders done by Ben at String Theory amongst all my other toys. He's really very good and takes time out to ascertain what exactly you want from the car so it's perfect for your needs. If you're in CSC, mention the group and you'll get a little discount as he's done tons of Spyders and GT4s now. Happy driving 👍

I've used Center Gravity, definitely recommend.

CG completely transformed my 993 turbo. I spent a very educational full day there.

No experience of ST. However loads of experience of GC. They are fantastic and taking a car to anyone to get it set up properly is the best bang for your buck you can ever spend. (assuming they are any good) Chris and Pete are absolutely top notch - I’d highly recommend them.

Tbh i think there's enough credence to believe either mentioned would do a, at minimum, good job for the OP. The main issue is how much 'fear of missing out' one might feel at not going the CG route as they are rightfully known as the shop to go to for this kind of stuff.....and only the OP will be able to judge that.

Whatever route, most decent places are pretty busy, so first hurdle is to be patient.

I originally took my S2000 to Chris at CG, and now have taken my 996 there - as did a former owner we found out when I got there. I think looking through these replies you get the idea. "Transform" is used by several people before me, and it's the word I would have used also. Great (now family) business and honestly you could lose a lifetime chatting with them. Hugely knowledgeable.

Well.....after so many posters above had used the word "transformed" I feared that I might be disappointed. However....I was there yesterday with my Spyder, and the "transformed" word is definitely justified. I had an interesting pre-spanner discussion with Pete, and then a circuit of the standard test-drive route, followed by about 4 hours of fascinating and highly informative talk and do, under and around the car. Much geometry optimisation (even though I had had this done previously at an OPC, with all green readings after adjustment) anti-roll bar re-setting (to "soft") together with track and ride height (spring pre-load) adjustments to return to factory settings (following 8k miles of settling in). Having seen how these settings needed several cycles of fettling before completion, it is obvious now that there is more than one way to get all "green" readings but getting it right, in something as complex and interactive as a configurable suspension system is a very skilled task. The result is a car that now feels far more "planted" and responsive, whilst also being less nervous, and much more enjoyable to drive. I had evidently got used to having to apply constant small steering adjustments, in a straight line and also in corners, and now this just is not necessary, so it is far more satisfying and relaxing to drive. Even my my right hand escaped the usual cramp after hours of driving, as I am no longer feeling the need to grip the wheel quite so firmly. The ride is (surprisingly) definitely better at low speeds with far less teeth-clenching required on poor surfaces, so I am also not constantly scanning the road surface trying to find the least/worst line through the appalling state of our roads. And the very annoying intermittent, entirely unpredictable, front suspension "clonk" - which helpfully demonstrated itself within a few hundred yards of starting the pre-spanner test drive - was completely absent in the 2.5 hour drive home. The likely culprit for this clonk was probably the collection of stones/gravel in amongst the front springs/strut seat, which Pete spent some time cleaning out. I think keeping these clean will have to become a regular task. So - I am indeed very happy with the outcome, many thanks to Pete at C-of-G, as well as to those who recommended making the journey there.

Congrats. Glad they were able to work their magic for you, as they have done for countless others of us.

There is absolutely no mystery as to how CG achieve such high rates of satisfaction. They only deal with suspension and geometry setups. They specialise very much (but not exclusively) in Porsche. They ensure they understand the individual customer requirements - road, track etc. They spend time with the customer and on the job. They involve the customer, to the extent that 'unexpecteed' costs (top mounts etc. etc.) are understood and not resented. There are no shortcuts. It's a thorough process.

Curious to know what anti-rollbar and front camber people are running on the 718 GT4/Spyder platform as I’ve heard conflicting info that suggests more negative than factory can make the rear skittish.

Depends what people mean by skittish? Some people think a car gets skittish when it starts to tramlime all over the road because the camber is aggressive, others mean the back end starts to kick out. Talking all Porsches here, but same applies to the GT4/Spyder. The issue you have on Porsches is as you increase camber on the rear axle it pulls the toe out, once you get passed about 1,8 of negative camber you don't have enough toe in, it drops to about 0.08, go to say 2.2 of negative camber and you can be down to 0.04, which will make the back end feel very twicthy. I like around 0.12 of toe in on the rear and about 0,02 on the front. If you drop down to 0.07 on the rear you would want to get maybe 0.04 or 0,05 on the front to compensate, but you then lose steering feel and that nice sharp turn in. You can't just add loads of camber as it changes all the other setting, even on the other axle.

Thanks Ed. I was referring to a skittish rear end when going over a bump. Is that 0.12 minutes of toe in at rear, and if so, per wheel - was that on the 718 platform?

Yeah, the for the 981 or 718, pretty much the same for all modern Porsches though. Yeah 0.12 toe in means 0 degrees and 12 minutes on each side, so 0º24 total toe in. People say 'fast road set up' but what does that mean? I can carry more speed if I feel the back end is not going to let go, it give you confidence to press on a bit harder. So many end up with no toe in up front or toe out, then very little rear toe in at the rear, which on a track is great, but not really what you want on the road. I was a planted rear end that has to be seriously provoked to break lose. Edited by Ed.Neumann on Tuesday 22 September 23:03

You can add adjustable rear toe links at the rear to get the toe back in. It’s probably THE most common suspension upgrade for the Cayman platform for those wanting to add some camber and keep a full range of rear toe adjustment. Jack

Ed.Neumann said: People say 'fast road set up' but what does that mean? I think the interpretation - the nuance - between what people say they want and what, on lengthier conversation and analysis they actually need is the gap that the experts bridge. My initial approach, with any new car, is to try and describe to the experts how/where I use the car and what compromises I am happy to accept. from there, as it develops, knowing what changes have been made and how those have felt, I might have more 'opinion' but still tend to prefer to talk in terms of how it feels, rather than what I think is needed to improve it. For example; if the expert gets an owner enquiring about 'track setup' but then it transpires they do maybe one or two track days a year, but two whole weeks a year of roads trips, that does tend to suggest road bias is still preferable. Equally though, some owners might actually prefer the feel or be happy to put up with a more aggressive setup on road.

Exactly. Some of the geo settings I have seen for a 'fast road set up' I wouldn't want to run on a road car. It is a term that gets bandied around and misinterpreted by both owner and alignment places. Center Gravity's set up for someone who wants a fast, grippy road car is very neutral, just nicely balanced, it could be more grippy but they would start to compromise usability and comfort. It is a really nice balance.