hint for a 996

Hello, I am about to buy a 2002 911 Carrera (996) with 140000mi. The price of $17000 is inviting. I heard about the IMS problem. How can I verify that this car is not affected by this issue before I buy it? Is it possible to assess (by the VIN number) if this problem was addressed? Any hints? What should I look for or be aware when I go to see the car? thanks a lot

you may get lucky, but unless you plan on a 25k+ engine rebuild soon, I wouldnt touch it. 140k is a lot of miles on the M96 motor.

Lamentably, the 2002 model year is within the range of production (2001 through 2004) with the suspect single row IMS bearing. As many of these cars had replacement engines installed by Porsche, designated by an "AT" in the engine serial number, you may want to check that as those replacement engines utilized a much larger/stouter IMS bearing that Porsche implemented in its regular production starting in 2005. I mention this as it would be an extraordinary engine indeed that logged 140k miles with the smaller single row bearing. Ask the seller for any and all documentation concerning the IMS bearing. A further lamentation is that there is no way to assess the condition of the bearing without removing the bearing which, at a minimum, entails removing the transmission. Be aware that failure of this bearing typically results in catastrophic engine failure, and even a used replacement engine will cost you $15K+ including installation. That's a hell of a baptism into the world of the 996, but it has happened right here on this forum. For me, unless the seller could provide some definitive documentation regarding the state of the IMS bearing, I would take a pass on this car and keep looking. Remember, the cheapest Porsche you buy will be the most expensive Porsche you buy, or something like that. Best of luck!

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You cannot verify that this car is not affected by this issue. It is. Do you like craps? Are you a betting man? Throw of the dice on this one. As said, 2002 most likely has the single row bearing and much more prone to failure. You could pay for an expensive and invasive PPI, and have the IMSB replaced at the same time. Do not buy the car without extensive maintenance documentation and a full list of what has been replaced over the 140K miles. My recommendation...look for a 99 MY.

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you are right and in general this is for any car. However if I find the AT in hte engine serial number the issue should have been addressed?

Yes, correct. The replacement engines with "AT" in the serial number use the 3rd generation larger single row bearing. If memory serves me correctly, those "AT" engines were replaced by Porsche under warranty. Having said that, it could also be possible that if the original engine was replaced, it was replaced with another used engine that may well have the very same issue with the IMS bearing. Or it could in fact be the original engine with 140K miles, in which the latter two cases I would pass on this car unless there was some definitive recent IMS bearing replacement documentation.

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I guess I gotta let it go, the IMS bearing problem has never been addressed on this car. There are no records. So it is like sitting on a bomb.

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I bought a 2003 C4 Cab, with 116K on the odometer for 16K.. IMS wasn't my issue, the AOS failed and in the downward spiral cracked a cylinder. I now have a nice shiny new FSI motor and a lighter wallet. Currently your engine is between 15 and 35K (Depending on your level of "I'm gonna bulletproof the thing) and the builder you choose..

The IMS bearing (IMHO) is such an overblown issue. The actual number of reported failures that occurred is a small percentage. My 2001 C4 has 149K on its clock and the original IMS. I just did a gearbox/flywheel/clutch replacement in January and inspected my IMS. It looked fine at 149K. But if I had a huge concern about it, the cost to replace it (these days) is not terribly expensive. The bigger concern should be the AOS and the waterpump (again IMHO), and checking the cam deviation for an M96 engine with that many miles on it. Let's be real... you should not expect to not have to do some semblance of maintenance that's going to dig in your pocket just a bit for a $17K 996 with 140K miles on its clock but the good news is it made it there. Most IMS failures happened in engines with less than 50K and never saw 100k miles. If you are seriously concerned about it, just replace it and enjoy this really great Porsche. I have been motoring around in Porsche's for many years (30+) and have never owed any model (to include brand new from the factory) that I could just take out and drive without carefully and diligently maintaining it... and with that said, YMMV. 149K on this IMS bearing and no issues to date. .

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Tell that to the thousands that lost their engines and joined the class action lawsuit that was settled by Porsche. They had real data back then because most of these cars were still being serviced by the dealerships. Here we are more than a two decades later and I would think current owners are more educated about the problem and are handling it preventively instead of waiting for it to fail.

Not an expert, but the original law suit percentages, as b3 mentions above, is only the tip of the failures. As our 996's get older, we are seeing a lot more failures. Again, eluding to what b3 is saying, the IMSB is now considered a wear item and should be replaced periodically. At 140,000, most would think you are past due, even in a very healthy engine. At any rate, for most purchases, a PPI is strongly recommended. When I bought mine and had it inspected, we discovered an IMSB that was beginning to fail (56K miles). Lucky we caught it in time.

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Also that's not a stock IMSB cover or nut.

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Exactly! ^^^ He didn't replace that IMS bearing as he stated and just "inspected" it, then YOU are correct, that's an aftermarket bearing.

You Tube

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Yeah check service records. I bought one of the cheapest 996 examples I could find, what can I say, I'm a contrarian. Everyone says buy the best example, and I see the logic in that, but my thinking was, with no service history, regardless of miles, 22 years old is 22 years old. I've put 18k into her without even making much of a dent in the deferred maintenance. Some of that was the full exhaust replacement and tune to fix that stupid e throttle lag (what were you thinking Porsche) PCCM Plus, coco mats, speakers, shifter refurbishment, and some other little upgrades like speakers and a few other things but the majority of that money has been spent on deferred maintenance. And I still haven't rebuilt the top end I haven't done the UAOS, I haven't done the water pump, reservoir, thermostat, injectors, oil cooler. Not too mention my calipers are likely original and haven't ever been rebuilt. I still need some suspension and steering refresh, I need new tires they are like new Michelin pilot AS 3+, date coded 2016.the tread is good but they are 7 years old. The wheels need refurbishing that's going to be about $800 to powder coat and even with that deferred maintenance finally done and taken care of I'm looking at about 2K worth of body and respray on the front end the bumper the bonnet fenders. Maybe, or I might just leave it and embrace the patina and the slight frunk seam wave from the minor it was in 2008. So you see you really have to love these cars. Yeah you can just drive it assuming it's in decent Nick but I don't know I guess I just want to fix it and no I can use it and not worry about it and drive to Canada and back etc. Some lucky sod will get a beautiful car fully restored or near enough once I decide I don't need it anymore or I'm too old to drive. Until then it's my car and within reason and being responsible I can spend whatever the hell I want to on it. I'm having the cylinder bores scoped they haven't been done yet next week and the sump inspected while I'm having my 6-month oil change which I can't really do myself I have no garage. You could keep cost down if your garage is full of tools and you have even a smidge of knowledge they're not hard to work on just difficult sometimes depending on rust and bolt's age and all that stuff. To me the 135 an hour my master mechanic charges with tons of 996 experience with a relationship with LN and Hoffman is worth it especially since he warranties parts he installs for and his labor for 3 years which that's a big deal, to me anyway. Hes young enough I don't worry he will retire or close, they are busy and he's constantly training new technicians, when he can find decent ones, If the cylinders look good and I think they will be fingers crossed there's no symptoms of bore scoring, I will still need to rebuild the top end, although both DME reports say the cam timing is well within limits. And at that point it's tough to say just do that top end, it's not cheap on it's own, and when for 25k no more certainly I can have a 3.8 from LN built in in the car and warrantied by my Indy for 3 years, within limits obviously there are certain things he would not warranty I'm sure. My goal is a completely restored with service history based 2001 Carrera. Or hell, maybe I could be convinced to go air cooled, older 911, or a 993. That said I've recently driven a well sorted 964 C2 as well as a 3.2, I Believe it was an 87? Neither of them felt as alive through the wheel as my 996, they felt slower, were slower, and those cars do come with their own issues. That said I freaking love the sound of air cooled 911s. The 996 is very different, higher, not as rumbly. Stock it was not to my taste,, but I do love the sound of my custom exhaust. I used all top gear UK headers, 200cell X-pipe cats and their valved mufflers. I think the xpipe contributes to the higher pitch race car sound when revved, but that's conjecture, I read it on the Internet. I just know it sounds good enough to make me forget my jealousy of a well tuned 2.4 or similar. ​​​​​​I'm actually nervous about the bore scope and sump results, that will decide my next steps. I've had 2 UOAs done, by Blackstone and the other guys, both from the same sample. Both services said the used oil looks perfect, so fingers crossed. I'll update my 996 friends here with the honest results. I'm very thankful that I can afford to do this now without taking my retirement plans. Remember, you can always sell the 996 for what you paid for it. But get that ppi and insist on a hot engine DME as well as a bore scope from the bottom. My Indy is doing the oil change, filter, filter exam, sump drop and exam, and capturing the used oil for me to send away again. All of that for 700.00 and the work done by my Indy personally, while his staff observe maybe, and learn. To me that's incredible value. Maybe some day I'll outfit the small original carriage house {a fancy little cape cod detached garage} at my rural retirement home. It has a gravel floor, but I could pour a nice floor and have room for the car and some tools, maybe even a lift, though the attic on the second floor would need to come out I think, so structural changes required. Plus it needs power. There is water at least. Until then I pay someone and thankfully that someone knows his stuff. I've tried to stump him, and asked some stupid guy trick questions. He's known the correct answer and what should really be done to solve for x, every time. Like I said, hrs a well known master mechanic or better, he owns the shop. He has been working on Porsche cars since before we even had a local dealer, hell he even owned (disclaimer, only one source provided this info )the Porsche Wilmington.com domain. The owners of the Porsche service center we have now apparently took offence to that when they arrived. Instead of offering to buy it, they sent a lawyer letter, and being the better man, my Indy took it down, he's not into squabbles with lawyers against Big money. Thankfully, their relationship is and has been good for a long time now. The Porsche service center actually recommended him to me. I'm sure they would maintain my car there as well, but I prefer to work with and support the guy who actually trained a few of the PSC mechanics, and like I said, he's held in high regard. I imagine that him doing the work and my new service record binder with every receipt, can't hurt if I do decide I've had enough and want an air cooled car. My 996 is my daily, and with no garage there's a limit to how much money in vintage 911 is in my car port 😂. I'm sure 95% of people who see my car think it's expensive and probably don't even know it's age or that it's an unloved edition, until they're close and know what to look for. I would prefer it not be expensive, and that no one notices it tbh. I'm definitely not someone who would be comfortable flaunting hypercar wealth. Under the radar please. I do get the odd smile and wave, and some even ask about it. I'm happy to share a bit about the car, but I make sure they realize it's no more expensive than a loaded CUV, in in fact much less, due to the minor if any depreciation in value these cars will experience in years to come. OMG I must have wanted to get this off my chest or something. This post is way too rambling and long. Good luck OP, however you decide!

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Service records are critical and will tell you alot. But you can test the oil to see what's in it. You can also drop the sump and see whats in it as well as look thru the oil filter for debris. Assuming the IMSB is in one piece and hasn't started to go, you them need to make sure the bores are in good shape by scoping them when the sump is off. Who knows, the engine may be in great shape with plenty of oil changes and all the right things replaced and done when they should have been. However, if there are no service records, I seriously doubt the car was properly services and you will have alot of work to do to bullet proof it. No services records, no deal imho.

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Fair enough... the PO must have replaced it prior to my purchase years ago. Either way I remain... if the issue is one that is of high enough concern , then simply REPLACE IT! But be aware that the IMS is not the only thing to be so strongly weighted as the AOS, waterpump, and cam deviation can be the catalysts of equally as disastrous issues for the M96 enigine. I have owed ,and enjoyed, three-996's over my years of Porsche ownership (two 993s and four 928's prior to them) none of my 996's were ever in the pig-pen for the IMS but I have had AOS and waterpump matters crap the bed on me in all of them (again just my experience and as I said YMMV). Again also these (or no Porsche of any model) should be purchased if the buyer is not prepared to do some semblance of diligent upkeep and maintenance to continue enjoying it. Just don't let one issue that affected than 5% of all 996's suffered from cloud your desire to own one if you want one.

I went in a different direction . I bought a 99 C4 with a dead engine for 4k . Then had a 3.8 FSI engine built with every known upgrade and solution to all known issues . No guarantee in life other than death and taxes but my engine is as " mistake proofed " as humanly possible . I sleep well at night and smile every time I drive her 😁

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Yup. That's a very old classic single row IMS Retrofit. It has no date codes on the flange, so that's why I know it is very old. The earliest kits did not have serial number stickers which I assume the car does not have since the poster did not know it had been changed out already. Needless to say, it's way past its service life.

There is NO SUCH THING as a cheap 911. Do you want to pay now (included in purchase price) or pay soon (cheap 911). I buy 911's based on original paint and accident history. Knowing that every 911 I buy is going to need immediate servicing and $$ thrown at it to get it my standard of what a 911 should be. When all else fails go with you gut and buy the seller.

My 2001 C2's dual row IMSB was in excellent condition when it was replaced in 2021. But, at least the new owner will have peace of mind that it was done.

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EXACTLY! Buying and driving is gonna cost you one way or the other. Either the seller did all the work and sells it for a premium or, you're buying it low and will do the work the 911 (996) needs... like replacing the IMS.👍🏾

I asked a very high priced call girl once why they were so expensive.... "Because we are worth it" I took it on faith... I was young and she was far above my pay grade..