A new adventure begins

Missing O ring and cylinder wear pics... So glad I am getting this work done, sad I have to spend all this money and time to get the motor I should have gotten from the factory.

Saildoc, I tried to encourage Jake Raby to report this production defect to PCNA, but he didn't seem interested. To me, this isn't a question of poor design (like the IMS issue or 987.1 oiling system, etc), but a production error that can/should be corrected. If Porsche were aware that there could be M97 engines out there missing an O-Ring in the AOS system, eventually causing premature engine failure, there is a chance they may issue a Technical Service Bulletin for owners of M97's with suspected issues so that they could inspect the ends of this hose for missing O-Rings, and install them. I would encourage you, as I've encouraged Jake, to be part of the solution here and possibly save other M97 engine owners from the same fate. Let PCNA know what Jake found. Whether or not they choose to listen to you is their decision. Log this issue using NHTSA's online form https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/VehicleComplaint/index.xhtml I know that neither you or Jake are obligated to do anything about this. At the same time, "if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem" goes the adage. I'm asking you to be part of the solution for untold numbers of M97 engine owners by alerting PCNA and NHTSA about this production defect. Thanks! :cheers: Matt

This is a 9A1 motor. For obvious reasons I can't communicate with Porsche of North America. I would advise any other 2012 cayman owners with the 3.4 motor to check and make sure that O ring was installed.

Why can't you communicate with Porsche of North America? It isn't like you are going to be demanding warranty coverage as you are taking the car completely out of stock form. As far as checking for this O ring, can someone direct me as to where and how to check? Is it a matter of uninstalling the AOS to check?

I'm not sure I understand the obvious reasons you aren't able to inform PCNA. Can you say more??

I think he means that telling PCNA about what he's doing may lead to instant warranty denial for any engine +/- drivetrain related issues. Engine, sure, but any other remotely related items could possibly be denied coverage - at least that's what OP may be afraid of (and I can respect that). Besides, what does he stand to gain? Raby is doing the engine work and it's not like Porsche will step in and pay for going to 4.2 L because of the missing o-ring. I suppose one could alert PCNA by saying "hey, look what I found when I took AOS off while looking around"... but it ain't my place nor my call.

This is not the first deficiency like this that I have found when going deep inside engines that are near new. The newest 9a1 that we have carried out our procedures to had 11 miles on it. With that one we found the vane cell adjuster retention bolt was left loose at the factory. I have brought these things up to the manufacturer in the past, and have never had anything positive come from it. The last time I found a brand new crate engine with solidified chunks of coolant in the passages that would have killed the water pump if the engine ever would have been fired up along with chunks of metal debris in the oil sump I did let the local dealer know who sent it upstream. An email from the fatherland was received that stated the issues were normal and that the engine had a 2 year 24.000 mile warranty so not to worry. That wasn't the case because the engine was not to have been installed by a dealer. The devil is in the details. I replied to that email with pictures of the oil sump from the brand new never fired outside the factory engine along with a side by side comparison of a sump plate from one of my engines with 500 break in miles and 40 dyno runs on it. The difference was huge with mine having zero notable debris and the other having a ton of debris. When I stated that if theirs was normal that mine must be exceptional I never received another reply. The manufacturer doesn't care for what we do. They consider it wasteful and unnecessary. We consider it quite the opposite. Time is my most precious commodity and I don't appreciate it being wasted. Therefore I'll keep myself from further disappointment and just add the information to my own program. I'll post some pics here of other issues the engine had as well as the O ring that was non existant upon my personal tear down of the engine. You can check your own car, but the oil sump must be removed completely to facilitate the inspection.

I'm not a bit surprised about Porsche 's response or lack of same. That ws exactly my experience as well.

I'm really interested in this build. Any updates would be great. I regularly track my car, so reliability is key. Are you tracking ours?

Saildoc, Any news on progress? Cheers,

Yes it's been quite a while since we had a progress report. Not as long as my car though! (1year!)

Motor ready for install.

wow! 4.2 liters, that must be FAST! Motor looks beautyful

Progress https://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.p...777194935641637&set=a.652280471466418.1073741847.184464434914693&type=1&theater

Re: Progress It lives!!! Early dyno numbers on par with light turbo 3.4. Can't wait for the beast to return!

Re: Progress Wow. You haven't had your car since May of 2013?

Re: Progress Update: So those of you that have been following this prolonged build will know that the car has been away for over a year. I knew going into this it was going to be a bit of project. No major surprises or issues. Jake has been great to work with. I have a fun daily driver so I haven't been totally deprived while the Cayman is gone. I know Jake is not a big fan of posting on forums but I felt I had to share some feedback on the experience. Going into this I was weighing the options of a turbo kit vs. motor swap vs. a big bore conversion. We are nearing completion. Going with Fabspeed headers and high flow cats. Staying with the stock PSE muffler. Jake has posted the dyno at this point on facebook so I feel comfortable sharing. He is holding off tuning until we get the headers installed. Here is the dyno graph: check out that torque curve-I will be eating up rear tires for sure.

Re: Progress Any new updates on your car? Cman21

Re: Progress Update on the Cayman R --> 4.2 conversion. The car is complete. Ready for shipment. Two issues came up in the build that were not anticipated and took some extra time. All off the shelf street clutches were too weak to handle the torque of the 4.2 liter motor. Several custom clutchs were fabricated to come up with a usable solution. After that was done Jake felt the stock headers were holding the motor back so went with FabSpeed headers and they were fabricated and installed. All the tuning is complete. Jake says the car is a monster now and I can't wait to get it. Shipper we chose is booked for three weeks so the wait continues. Just got off the phone with Jake and he is seeing more motors with missing O rings and oil aerration problems and film failure so watch out! The next quality disaster on the level of the IMS problem may be looming with 9A1 motors.

Re: Progress saildoc Thanks for the update, three weeks and counting, your patience will soon be rewarded. Don't be shy with the follow up posts, I'll look forward to reading them. With regard to missing o rings, I am absolutely stunned, and I mean stunned, it really doesn't breed confidence does it? Did Jake indicate that there were any particular build years that seemed to be more effected, or did it seem a little more random? Cheers Rob :cheers:

Re: Progress I´ve subscribed to this thread. The main subject (4.2l engine) is very interesting and this O-ring issue bothersome. What an incomprehensible reaction form Porsche - disappointing. I´m going to get my new 2.7 base in March and I´m starting to wonder whether I should ask the dealer to check this at delivery. Can anyone be so kind please as to indicate where exactly in the engine base this O-ring is located? I understood that the sump has to be removed. Ernst

Re: Progress Here is the latest Cayman R disaster about to happen that Jake has seen in his shop. When I talked to him about my car he mentioned a second car without the O ring seal the damage he found on tear down. Hopefully we are the only two cars with the problem. https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1004205302940598.1073742004.184464434914693&type=1

Re: Progress My car is back! After being gone nearly two years my car has returned safely. I was out of town when it arrived and I first got to see it at 10pm Sunday night. Dusty but everything looked good. Started it up on the first try. Definitely sounds more aggressive than before (stock PSE muffler system). Custom clutch is stiffer but not terrible. Drove around the block-whoa! This thing has power and more importantly some serious torque. With slight throttle application it wants to fishtail around. In my brief time I can say that the conversion is super slick, the motor idles at 600 rpm smoothly yet it is a beast ready to be unleashed-more to follow.

Re: Progress Wow that's a long time without your car. Sounds like it might have been worth the wait. Please post more comments as you get more seat time in your upgraded monster. Cman21

Re: Progress Congrats - I remember when you embarked on this journey... any final dynos or output figures?

Re: Progress Hi Saildoc, Congratulations. Two years of wait - what a job! You mentioned in the thread the trouble caused by a missing O-ring seal for the air oil separator. Can you please indicate where exactly in the engine base this O-ring is located? I want to talk about it with the dealer so I have to describe what to look for. Ernst

Re: Progress Drove the car for the second time on a short trip. This new motor is a head rush, with the PSE on it is borderline obnoxious but so much fun. Takes a bit more skill to modulate the clutch and throttle with 80 more ft lbs of torque. Jake has not sent me the final dyno run print out but will share when iget it. Will try to upload a gopro video this weekend. Externally the car is totally stock cayman R, nothing but the vicous exhaust note to give it away.

As far as the o ring seal jake says it cannot be viewed without a motor tear down, sorry to report.

Thanks Saildoc for the info. Of course on the possible (hopefully remote) probability of the occurrence of this O-ring problem, no way the dealer or I will consider to dismantle the engine. And I have no plans to open it up for modifications either. But your problem is solved (at a cost!), and I hope you will enjoy the car many more years. Thanks, Ernst

Quick update. The car is a whole new creature around town, there is so much torque, so low down it truly needs bigger rubber to handle it. Here is the final dyno numbers at the wheels. Blue is the tune we went with. Huge difference at low RPM.

Firstly, congratulations on your car. I'd love a 4.2 in a Boxster - sounds like a great recipe. But I have a few questions.. Are you going to do a detailed report? Final HP numbers vs stock? (Above dyno only shows TQ). TQ increase is 30%, while displacement increase is only 23% - is Jake happy with that extra efficiency? What mods are done to achieve that? Is the rev limit increased? Why did it take 2 years? You weighed up Turbo vs Engine Swap vs Modify Motor - why did you choose this option (primarily why this over the engine swap, as they are both natural aspiration displacement increase options). Especially considering the timeframe for your build.... still trying to wrap my head around that!! Congrats again, hope you are enjoying the car.

Sorry, but that is incorrect. It can be accessed by simply removing the oil/sump pan. I have my original 3.4 on an engine stand (3.8 in it now), flipped it over and took the pan off. An oil crossover pipe needs to be removed and then the bolts holding the separator in. Very easy. Possible parts needed are the oil pan sealing ring and two o-rings. And yes, my R did come with the o-ring.

So here is a little update if anyone is following the thread-I have had the car for three years. Things have not gone smoothly. The car made lots of smoke suggesting the position rings were not seated, On advice from Jake a different oil was tried which seemed to help a little. I participated in a DE with PCA at Hallet. The first hot session went well, the car made good power and the brakes were the limiting step. The second hot session ended after 5 laps with a funny sound from the motor and car in limp mode. My local shop pulled the oil pan and it was not pretty-shiny oil with lots of metal residual visible and bits of metal in the oil pan. At this point we don’t know what is going on. Maybe a bad oil pump as suggested by Jake or a disintegrated thrust bearing. The car has accumulated 2000 miles since the 4.2 conversion all street but the to hot sessions outlined above. It will cost a minimum of $10,000 to even diagnose the damage/problem. Will keep everyone updated.

Bummer. Sorry to hear that. I hope that the engine builder stands behind his work. Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

Thanks, I am planning to send the motor back to Raby enterprises and see what they can do to help me. Pretty big disappointment after all the time it took to build it and how little I used it before this happened.

Very sorry to hear. Not the first time I've heard of something like this...

From Jake Raby or in general with these big bore motor conversions?

Well...... with rebuilt engines having problems...

It was not a rebuild. It was a nearly new motor converted from a 3.4 to a 4.2 L.

**** man sorry to hear about this after such long wait. i'm sure raby will step up and fix it at no cost to you

My 2012 Cayman R has left for Jake Raby's garage to begin the conversion to a 4.2 Liter monster. I am pretty excited to see what I get back and the wait will kill me. I will keep you updated with any photos they take at the shop and progress with the build in general. I am planning to stick with the stock brakes and suspension. I think this should be more than fine for any street or DE's the car may see.

Subscribed. Good luck with the build. Sounds like it will be one hell of a car. I would look into some bigger brakes though!

WOW 4.2! Please keep us posted

Jake is great to deal with, he built my 3.6L. You looking at next year to get it back? 4.2L will be a beast!

How long will the build take?

Subscribed. Envious.

Can you tell us more about how you came to doing this? Why 4.2? Are there similar conversions out there? We're all green with envy (not peridot, I'm still meteor grey). :hilarious: John

MT or PDK ?

Thanks for the likes and replies. The car is a 6 speed manual. Jake said that was way better for this conversion as there is a torque limiter built in to the engine software to protect the PDK which if I recall was destroyed in the Cayman X they built with the first 4.2 conversion. The motor is out of the car and the block should be at LNengineering for the boring out and cylinder sleeve fitting. The crank was machined over the winter. I guess I will see the car back in August maybe? We'll see. If I change brakes I will probably go with Cup car calipers. I already have the GT3 front and Turbo back scoops installed. The car has the PSE from the factory. Not sure how it will sound with the extra volume running through it-Jake thinks it will work fine. Will get some photos soon I hope.

Are you having his new Oil Cooler installed? There wasn't a problem with my IPD plenum and catless headers.

It was mentioned to me that Jake had mounted an oil cooler in a third radiator bracket. Not sure if this will be necessary. It does get hot in Oklahoma. So you are running headers and the PSE ?

Congrats on the 4.2L build. What does Jake anticipate HP/TQ numbers will be?? No doubt it'll be very fast. DMN987S - I've also followed your saga as you re-built to a 3.6L motor at Flat-6 Innovations. I've read a great deal of Jake's thinking on oil overheating, getting too thin, and causing bearing failures. It sounds like you've also had many conversations with Jake on the topic. That said, do you have a sense for what Jake feels is "too hot" for oil temps in these motors??

Doc, all Cayman DME 's have a torque limiter. This usually isn't an issue with most mods as they just shift the maximum torque to a higher RPM or show very modest increases. At least on gen 1 engine swaps the torque limiter was an issue until tuners figured a way to increase the max allowed. On my car its set at 250%. I'm going the 996 cup brakes on my car. Will give feedback as soon as I get it on track.

Update The car has been run on the dyno pre motor work. Jake said it made less power than other 987.2's he has tested. Oddly enough it made 4 less HP with the PSE valve open???? Might be the fact that it is a low milage motor and not fully broken in. Motor is out and being diassembled.

Photos of the work so far

Is that a custom made crankshaft? Do you know what the stroke is? Will there be any modifications to Cylinder heads or cams?

Saildoc -- Jake has been posting many pics on facebook of a Cayman R motor being torn down and bored to 4.2L...is this yours?? What's interesting is that he observed substantial cylinder bore scoring after only 4,400mi. He suspects this was due to the oil being aerated because of an O-ring that was left out of a tube assembly from the factory. His theory is that the missing O-ring caused the oil to foam and not be able to protect the cylinder bores, where the oil film layer is most critical. Sounds like it's a good thing you (or whoever the owner of the motor in questoin is) are getting this motor rebuilt! :beer:

The motor was a mess at tear down. Porsche failed to install a critical O ring seal preventing the air oil separator from doing its job. Significant accelerated wear was discovered, basically my motor was a time bomb waiting to self destruct. I suspect there are others out there that missing the same O ring.