m96/03 engine failure

Long time lurker, first post here.. Unfortunately, my early 2002 996 4s blew it's engine at 71k Kilometers. Bought the car last year with 55k kilometers, brought it in to have IMS changed and clutch done immediately, and enjoyed the car for 15k kilometers. Last week, I was driving on the highway, heard a sound like something loose in the engine, which was 10s later followed by a high piercing sound, almost sounding like someone was using a power drill in my engine... After that, a blissfull silence, since the car engine simply stopped. I coasted to the side, and was waiting for the tow truck at 5am in the morning on my way to the airport. Diagnosis at Porsche dealer: lost of metal in oil filter, zero compression in the engine: new engine needed. Had my mechanic pick up the car, and his diagnosis was that at least IMS bearing was shot, whether this is cause or effect is unknown. We agreed to pull the engine apart, to see what happened. According to him, there is another part of the IMS that apparently can fail, and which is only accessible if you take the engine apart. I do not think the LN engineering bearing is to blame, since I these are much stronger and typically wrong installs would fail almost immediately. Options are simple, either rebuild or install a reman engine. Budget is no issue (this will be anywhere between 6 and 20k, am inasiwtzerland), unless costs get higher than the costs of simply buying a 997.2 or a 993. Will keep people updated on the progress. I trust the mechanic and shop, they also work on cars like the 959 , and I know of at least another 996 rebuild they performed. Anyway, just again shows that statistics do not apply to the individual.... As I never thought I would be in that less than 1% of persons suffering from an engine failure.. We'll see what comes, I know for sure that even if this one turns out too expensive to repair, I need another one.... J

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Sorry to read of your misfortune. Bear in mind an engine with metal debris scattered around inside is not a good candidate for a rebuild. I'd lean towards if not a factory remanufactured engine sourcing a used engine from a reputable Porsche salvage business.

JMB , You are in Switzerland? If so our USA oriented advice may be inappropriate. There is a very well connected M96 guy in Germany "Markus" who is close to you -Zuffenhausen .He uses the nome de plume of 'Smallblock454'. He will know your options and may be able to hint at a source of the fabled "polish" M96 used engines. http://986forum.com/forums/general-d...i-germany.html

Sorry to hear that and please keep us posted. Would be nice to learn what else were damaged and what took out the engine. Btw, do you know if the shop did a prequalification check before installing the imsb?

Thanks already for your advice! I will wait for the coming days to hear what exactly went wrong, and then take a decision for rebuild or 2nd hand engine, or different car. The choice will also depend on the level of warranty I can get on a rebuild, and cost obviously. Thanks for the tip wrt "polish" engines, followed a few threads about that some time ago, and if another engine is the choice I will ask my mechanic to follow up with him. I am not sure whether any pre-inspection was done before change of the IMSB, however it was done by a French shop who is appearing on the LN website as certified, so I assume they follow protocol. In any case, I am pretty Ok about it, there is no way I would be able to proof that this caused the engine failure after 15000kms of no issues at all (and in any case, bearings can simply fail, even though the failure rate of the ceramic ones are much much lower than the stock Porsche...) Also, given the many failure modes these engines can have, it will be difficult to asses cause and effect in this case. Also, 5 weeks ago the Porsche dealer changed the waterpump (preventative....), a wheel bearing and did a small service with all fluid changes. They would have likely needed to see metal in the oil filter if they changed it? So, I believe for now this could be an all of sudden event, where just something broke inside the engine and caused total engine failure including breaking the IMSB? I will keep you posted on what caused the failure, and which route I take eventually. I have learned a lot by just reading this site, and at least this is a small chance to contribute to the knowledge maybe about another failure...

Sounds like you may have snapped a drive chain first.. Need more data to tell. BTW- There are no Certified Installers in France. I invite shops to the program, and carry out the advanced training/ evaluation for all Certified Installers. To date no French shops have even been invited to the program.

Jmb996, is it this one http://www.flat69.fr listed on the LN webpage here? http://imsretrofit.com/preferred-installers/

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Those are Preferred Installers, not Certified Installers. A preferred installer simply pays for a listing, Certified Installers are trained, and have to pass evaluations. They also must follow a strict code of conduct for every procedure. Big difference.

Sorry to hear about your car would be very interested to know the details. Seems like this is becoming a wider spread occurrence lately... Which makes me feel slightly unsettled. Interested to know if the dealership does in fact check for metal in the filter as a service procedure and even so if none is found perhaps CEF can still occur?

Hey JMB Sorry to hear about that. I had the same thing happen to me , except I was driving along at about 5 mph in 1st gear when it happened. I also had the IMSB upgrade installed just after I got the car at 24k miles. 20k miles later I was faced with a decision to sell my car as a roller or replace the engine. My indy had a 997 engine on the shelf so we made a deal and I couldn't be happier with it. Still, it was an big expense.

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This may be a big difference to you, but maybe not for those who are new to the issues with M96.

This is LN's protocol, not mine. I handle the screening and evaluations for LN in regard to the Certified Installers. Only Certified Installers have to answer for every installation that they carry out. With 27 other modes of failure, the engine can have the failure exist along with, or because of other issues. Here we have carried out of 500 IMS Retrofit procedures, using all of the LN technologies along the way. Out of those, we've never had a post- process failure. This dates back to IMS Retrofit #1, being the first ever carried out using commercially available components. The difference is the amount of jobs that we fail due to pre- qualification discoveries. In each of those cases the new component would fail, IF we were wearing blinders like every other non- Certified Installer is. Give something a chance to fail, and it is going to fail. A good example is a shop in the NE that complained to a distributor after their lead tech attended my hands- on classes. After the class he was downing nearly 1/2 the IMS Retrofit jobs that came in the door. He was finding legitimate things wrong with the engines, and documenting them. He would even send us photos and data for a second opinion. His standards were keeping the shop from generating money, so they complained. He did what he was supposed to, and the shop does'n't give a damn about anything but volumes of work. Its not their reputation thats being risked with every job they do, if the part fails, they just blame the part. We can't do that.

So, maybe these shops shouldn't be listed on the LNE website if they aren't qualified to do the work... just sayin. Anyhow, why are you answering for LNE?

I know the process, and I just happen to be here, LN is not. Someone mentioned that the shop that did this work was Certified, and thats not the case, and was what I was trying to point out. Direct any other questions about the process, and the differences in the levels of installer to LN.

Translation - I speak for LN except when the going gets rough, then I ain't them.

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No translation necessary. I am not "them" when the going is good, or bad. I've been working with LN since they were just two guys that didn't even own a company. We spend dozens of hours every week working together, even though neither of of us are vested in the other's business. When I see someone make an incorrect statement, I owe it to everyone to correct that.

Thanks for your responses so far. First of all, apologies for confusing "certified" with "preferred" installers. I only listed the fact that the IMS was changed as a background fact, not as a probable cause and absolutely do not blame the engine failure on the replaced IMS. To me, with the 26 other modes of failure, it is highly unlikely that the IMS (which was replaced) is at fault here. Most likely some other catastrophy happened which destroyed parts of the engine (incl the IMSB) in the process. One of the interesting things here is that this is again a well-maintained engine, with low miles (40k miles) that fails completely. When I bought the car, I sought out a low mileage car, assuming that this should be less subject to wear and tear, which might be a wrong assumption for M96 engines. Jake brought up chain failure as a likely cause, how often do you see this, and any insights in the level of damage this typically causes? I will likely learn more later today/ tomorrow when the engine is taken completely apart, and inform all of you accordingly. J

Stupid question but your engine is a 3.6 not 3.4 right? I know you mentioned it was an early 2002 which leads me to believe its definitely a 3.6 but just thought I'd clarify.

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Jake, you may want to revise or provide additional clarification around this on your web pages. The page linked by Ahsai seems confusing, to me at least. The top of page says "Preferred" Installers but right below it is a list of all "Certified" installers. Do you lump both preferred and certified installers on one page on the same listing?

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You bought a low miles car, but you also bought a "new" car. New in the sense it had not covered the 50K miles that is the new car warranty miles. At 71k kilometers that's around 44K miles and this is of course under the 50K miles. While I'm sure it doesn't ease the pain the engine suffered a "new" failure.

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Can you specifically confirm that the bearing you put in was the LN? It isn't clear from this message.

Those aren't my pages.. All of that belongs to LN. I have told Charles that these things need to be more clarified, and I will push for that again. Remember, I don't sell any of this stuff, my role with LN is from a developmental stand point. They are my customer.

"There are no Certified Installers in France." This is a huge opportunity for Jake - open a European 'front' ? Time to offer the M96 course in France in summer .Nice vacation afterwards? All lectures in English. Could be fun !Just think of the entente cordial ! Better hop on this opportunity 'tout suite' -before Martin gets the idea :-).

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This link may give some inight to the timing chain snap issue that Jake suggested may be a MOF: http://www.renntech.org/forums/topic...chain-brokenb/

I care nothing about going to France.. I spent my Honeymoon at LeMans, and could not get out of that place fast enough after the race was over. If anyone wants to be trained, they have to come to us. No way to do a hands on class at this level remotely. Failing timing chains are nothing new, they kill more M96.03 engines than anything else these days, a close second is valve seat failure, though. There's a lot of photos of them in the failure albums on our Facebook page. www.facebook.com/fixabrokensix Any failure has a primary issue, followed by several secondary issues. Collateral damage is difficult to differentiate from primary damage in many cases, even for us.

I don't think Jake is one of the Marines that may be heading over to give the Frenchies a hand...

I guess I just failed in my attempt to mastermind the expansion of Flat 6 into France :-). Somehow I kinda expected the incompatibility mentioned below. I actually worked in Lemans briefly and concur with your exit strategy. "I care nothing about going to France.. I spent my Honeymoon at LeMans, and could not get out of that place fast enough after the race was over."

Hey JMB996, sorry to hear about the blown motor. I was in your shoes last year. Went with used motor, after researching all my options. You might want to read through my blown motor thread.

This is the tale of how Cuda911 blew it up.

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Schnell, I'm already in Europe We have a second location in Poland where my crew is currently working on our customer's motor, he is from Vienna. He drove all the way to Poland for IMS roller bearing upgrade, unfortunately he has other engine issues which need to be fixed as well. MB Motorsports will have another representative in Germany very soon. To OP: I have seen quite a few LN bearing failures, they are not a good solution to IMS problems. Have your tech check your motor first to determine cause of this failure before anyone here will jump to conclusions... It's easy to do without taking the motor apart, just remove IMS flange and inspect the bearing. He should also remove tensioner to inspect timing chain, that is the fastest way to find out what happened.

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quite the statement. any proof to back that claim up?

I don't have to, search rl and other forums and you will find it too. I don't want to do this all over again, there are treads out there describing everything in details.

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actually...you do. I've read those, none are conclusively saying the LN unit caused the failure. or it was clearly instalation error.

Just like JR, he's trying to help. Why not at least let him give his opinion/findings as well without the bitch slap knee jerk reaction of a typical 996 forum member?

I'm shocked, just shocked, that KK would stand up in defense of hyperbolic claims of M96 related failures. Shocked I tell you!

Wake up bro. The M96 has so many MOF's that I think most have given up on counting them. Read JR's latest about it. That is, if you can comprehend it.

Please enlighten us then. How many M96s were made? How many have actually failed through no fault over the owner? Or to stay a bit more on topic, how many LN bearings have been installed? That were in engines that subsequently failed (again through no fault of the owner)? Of those, how many had the engine torn down completely to diagnose what the actual root cause was? Of those, how many actually found the bearing was at fault through no fault of the owner nor installer? You want to be taken seriously (that is rhetorical since we all know the answer) then start talking in real numbers rather than your hyperbolic BS. Until then, please GFYS.

Boys, Boys, let's not get distracted from the task of helping the OP? I must compliment Martin for stepping up and offering some help to the OP. But I had hoped we had convinced Martin to stop with the jabs at other vendors products. It just destroys the goodwill he created with the offer of help to the OP. Sad.

I'm also very interested in the details of the CEF MOF for KKs engine.

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exactly. I'm not trying to argue, I just want to see the facts. no one has been able to post these "high number of LNE failures" no one

I'm in the it's a lubrication problem not a bearing problem IMS camp. That said, if my 2001 C2 with 71k miles & factory original bearings grenades, I think I will just buy a used Boxster S for $15,000 and sell the 911 as a roller. Net out of pocket is about $10,000 and I'm back in a Porsche almost immediately. That seems like the most logical solution to me and probably what I would recommend to the OP.

All I can say is that I am thankful for JR, KK and Martin. This thread should prove to be good reading over the next few days...

gobble gobble.....

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Sorry to hear about your engine failure. I was contacted by Fast Forward Automotive about your failure (via Flat 69). From the information I was provided, your engine experienced a rod failure which windowed your block. To date I have never seen any IMS failure cause this to happen. Fast Forward Automotive can provide you support for having your engine rebuilt by Flat 69. This is probably your best option to ensure it goes back together with all the best of everything, to ensure you don't experience another failure. I can source here in the US any core items you may need and can provide you consideration as you are dealing with Flat 69 who has been a long time customer of ours. If you have any questions, please feel free to contact us directly, Fast Forward, or Flat 69.

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The M96 engine is wet sump. Once there is no seal on the bearing, lubrication is not the problem. I've been a long time proponent that had the dual row 5204 and 06-08 6305 used by Porsche been installed without a seal, there would have never been a problem as long as the proper oil was used, changed frequently, and a service interval adopted, like a timing chain (at least for the serviceable dual row bearing).

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Original failure rates of factory bearings are advertised as 1-2% for dual row, 7-10% for single row, depending on your source for numbers. For LN bearings, there are about 23,000 installed, roughly, not including IMS Solution OR the 1500 or so shafts that we have upgraded in house when we pin the sprockets. If I were to take a stab, I'd probably say we have had in 6 years about 30 reported failures. Of those, I'd probably say less than half can be confirmed as truly IMS bearing failures, with none of them being properly qualified. Proper qualification involves more than just throwing the car on the lift and looking to see which bearing it needs. The car needs a full workup - starting with pulling the pan and even bore scoping the cylinders. Jake dyno tests each car before to make sure it is not down on power. No point on retrofitting a tired engine. We're of course discounting all the hacks out there that put bearings into engines that are not good candidates for retrofitting that already have problems or have suffered a failure previously. You'd be amazed at the number of shops that call us and tell us they are cutting bearings out, or the engine has noisy cylinders, or lost a water pump and they still retrofit the engines, knowing they are going to fail, most so the customer can flip the car. The the new owner buys the car since it's been retrofiitted and then it's our fault that his engine has blown. We had one shop loose 6 bearings until they realized that the same tech did all 6 and they had fired him for not doing things properly before they made the connection. We figured he was using a zip gun to tighten the nut on the bearing install tool, causing the bearings to brinell. We revised the tool to prevent the nut from being fitted to hold the bearing to the install tool to prevent that from happening. There are other steps we have tried to take to prevent installation errors and ensure failed bearings are not retrofitted, but we can't police it since we don't sell the bearings for the most part direct to consumer. They all go through wholesalers. Compulsive registration is the only thing we can do, which will be required for our extended warranties coming next month. And no, I don't count any so-called failures that don't get called into us. If you cry wolf enough times, people eventually won't listen to you.

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Like Jake said, the Preferred Installers only requires the shops to agree to the code of conduct, but no training or examination is required. To keep their standing, they have to pay the annual fee. If we have any customer complaints or we find they are not abiding to the code of conduct, they get dropped. An additional difference is IMS Solution Certified Installers also get a 5 year warranty on the IMS Solution, over the standard 2 year warranty (when registered).

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I just took a look at my own page (which I haven't in a long time). http://imsretrofit.com/preferred-installers/ It's pretty clear but I agree the old page was not and that's why it was redone back in 2012 (I believe). Explains the difference between preferred and certified and makes that clear - quite a few of the preferred installers are indeed certified by Jake (and are clearly identified as such). If there is somewhere else that I am missing that needs clarification, please send me a PM.

Even though this is the truth there are some here that just cant handle it without coming unglued on the poster.

Actually KK, I'm quite happy to hear a 1-2% failure rate for the duel row bearing, which I have in my '99 C2.Oh, did I mention it(IMSB, RMS) and the clutch and the water pump are all original? I know, my head is in the sand....

Let's see if I can get this just right. *ahem* *cough* "Yer stupid bruh! Y are you ignoring the MOF? You're totally gonna get CEF. Bruh, you need PM bad. To [sic] bad your [sic] two [sic] stupid to DIY."* How'd I do? *The above post might be humor, satire, or irony. It is not meant to offend any type of organism whether living or deceased, in the known or unknown universe. This disclaimer is as close to humor as I can actually get. I recognize that it's just sack-*** sad, but hey, it's what I can do.

That's "dual" row, not "duel" row. Per Wikipedia: "A duel is an arranged engagement in combat between two individuals, with matched weapons in accordance with agreed-upon rules." Sorta like Schnelly and KK.

Hmmm, I thought it was spelled h a t s.... You give KK too much credit there Mike. Based on his random made up unpronounceable "words", mastery of parroting, and general petulant manner, I think my 3yr old is more his speed. Might still be too much of a challenge for him though... Though his singleminded obsessive mentality is kinda similar to Schnelly's cat crap loving dog...

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Ooops. Dual row. Is that better?

Dear Charles, Thanks for your kind offer to help out with the various parts needed for a rebuild. As I already indicated in my first post, i have never believed that this failure was caused by the IMS, and good to confirm that indeed the rod failed. I will send you a PM with some specific questions on how to make the rebuild engine as bullet proof as can be. Thanks, J