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Discussion summary
YOUR RESEARCHIMS upgrade Sydney
Leading reported evidence
Replace ever again and frankly specifying a ball bearing
Performed · outcome unconfirmed
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Read evidence and context
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Performed · outcome unconfirmed
I'd go the "Solution" plain bush rather than going another ball bearing, assuming the cost difference isn't much as there is no need for it to be replaced ever again and frankly specifying a ball bearing for that application was the lowest of the low in Porsche engineering history.
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Suggestion
As for precautions, I would change the oil regularly for the sole reason that I could check for debris on the magnetic sump plug and the oil filter (and not because I think fresh oil has some magic quality like some thread posters say), install a lower temp thermostat and take care to drive gently until fully warmed up, keep an eye and ear on the condition of the cam chain tensioners and with the IMS bearing either replace with the IMS Solution or more likely just pop the seal(s) off the factory bearing so that any debris created within can escape.
Leading evidence: 'Replace ever again and frankly specifying a ball bearing' (no explicit attributable resolution; this is a reported action or suggestion). Across 1 matching discussions, The most frequently discussed action is 'Check debris' (1 discussions). For that action, 0 discussions report a resolution and 0 report an unsuccessful attempt. No action has an explicit, attributable resolution report under the current rules. These are forum reports and suggestions, not a confirmed diagnosis.
Source reports, not a diagnosis or a success probability. Counts refer to discussions and can overlap.
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that performed work without a confirmed outcome
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that contain suggestions
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Suggestion
As for precautions, I would change the oil regularly for the sole reason that I could check for debris on the magnetic sump plug and the oil filter (and not because I think fresh oil has some magic quality like some thread posters say), install a lower temp thermostat and take care to drive gently until fully warmed up, keep an eye and ear on the condition of the cam chain tensioners and with the IMS bearing either replace with the IMS Solution or more likely just pop the seal(s) off the factory bearing so that any debris created within can escape.
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that contain suggestions
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Suggestion
Replace clutch, rear main seal, fit IMS solution, replace oil vap separator, fit expansion cap, air mass sensor etc..
Explicit resolution reports before identified causes, performed actions and suggestions. Within each level, matching component labels precede direct query mentions and inherited thread context; successful versus unsuccessful discussion counts, owner confirmations and independent discussion support determine order. This is not a probability of success.
Discussions that contain suggestions
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Suggestion
I think the change from small to large, single to double row just changes the resonance frequency or rpm at which the failure mode is likely to occur.
These are separate views of the same evidence. Frequency alone does not establish a fix, and these counts must not be added together.
Check debris
No successful repair reported for this finding.
0
Reported fixes
0
Unsuccessful attempts
1
Discussions
Read evidence and context
Discussions that contain suggestions
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Suggestion
As for precautions, I would change the oil regularly for the sole reason that I could check for debris on the magnetic sump plug and the oil filter (and not because I think fresh oil has some magic quality like some thread posters say), install a lower temp thermostat and take care to drive gently until fully warmed up, keep an eye and ear on the condition of the cam chain tensioners and with the IMS bearing either replace with the IMS Solution or more likely just pop the seal(s) off the factory bearing so that any debris created within can escape.
Replace ever again and frankly specifying a ball bearing
No successful repair reported for this finding.
0
Reported fixes
0
Unsuccessful attempts
1
Discussions
Read evidence and context
Discussions that performed work without a confirmed outcome
1
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Performed · outcome unconfirmed
I'd go the "Solution" plain bush rather than going another ball bearing, assuming the cost difference isn't much as there is no need for it to be replaced ever again and frankly specifying a ball bearing for that application was the lowest of the low in Porsche engineering history.
0 original-poster resolution reports. Counts can overlap; they are not unique people or a success rate.
0 discussions have direct query context; 0 report a fix in that context. Other evidence may inherit the discussion’s subject.
Suggestion
As for precautions, I would change the oil regularly for the sole reason that I could check for debris on the magnetic sump plug and the oil filter (and not because I think fresh oil has some magic quality like some thread posters say), install a lower temp thermostat and take care to drive gently until fully warmed up, keep an eye and ear on the condition of the cam chain tensioners and with the IMS bearing either replace with the IMS Solution or more likely just pop the seal(s) off the factory bearing so that any debris created within can escape.
Counts describe captured discussions, not unique people or a diagnosis. Author identities are not reliably stored. Exact duplicate evidence is counted once across matching discussions; one discussion counts at most once per action/state. Multiple repairs reported together remain a combination. Suggestions and failed attempts do not establish a fix. Matches cover whole discussions and can include related faults, model variants and incomplete threads.
40 eligible posts · 0 unverified posts · 1 discussions match the subject in their title or opening post.
Porsche Forum Australia: 1 discussions
0 evidence records excluded for query context · 0 excluded by outcome qualification · 0 adjusted by outcome qualification.
0 acknowledgements have no verified action link; they do not establish a repair result.
Generation: 20261026T124918Z · outcome-qualification-6. Deterministic extraction; no AI model inference. How we use sources
If anyone has had their IMS bearing upgraded in Sydney I'd be interested to know:
- where you go it done
- whether you went with the IMS retrofit (i.e. bearing replacement) or the IMS solution
- how much you paid
- whether you were happy with the job.
Need to get it done on my new to me 996.
Thanks in advance.
I live in Sydney but got mine done in Melbourne as I bought the car down there and had a few other things done straight away but I found Cavaco in Glebe to be my preferred mechanic in Sydney. I have since sold the car but if I had another that needed the upgrade I would be speaking to them first for sure.
I went for the LN engineering retrofit ceramic bearing. Off the top of my head it set me back about $2- $2.5K back in 2012. As for the rest of the options... have a bit of a read but don't spend too long researching them or your IMS may break in the meantime whilst trying to decide..!
Thanks. Have spoken to Autohaus. They were very helpful and talked me through their decision to go with the retrofit bearing, which does make sense. Only thing playing on my mind is that the cost to do the solution is not that much more...
Thats the same reason I went with the bearing rather than the solution (OEM style design with upgraded parts), however bear in mind the retrofit has a finite service life the solution does not.
Dee,
Out of curiosity, how much more if you don't mind?
I'd go the "Solution" plain bush rather than going another ball bearing, assuming the cost difference isn't much as there is no need for it to be replaced ever again and frankly specifying a ball bearing for that application was the lowest of the low in Porsche engineering history.
The solution is a better option, if I had to do it again I'd go the solution. Then again when it comes time to replace it LN are apparently doing great deals for the solution if you have bought a retrofit.
I think its about 80,000kms (used by date).
My Pcar I purchased from a friend, he did the retrofit (the OEM bearing was perfect) then I pulled the retrofit out a couple of months ago (almost 80,000kms usage) and it was perfect also. I went with the EPS cylindrical/oil feed but Jack Raby's "the solution" is by far more reputable and documented.
I actually decided not to poke around until the next time I have the clutch out so mines staying as is. Probably irrelevant but just another angle.
I've been following the IMS thread on 911uk which has several interesting perspectives where they cover most of the current theories including just removing the seal from the bearing and allowing it to be splash lubricated.
Good luck.
Jim.
its on the US forums also
http://rennlist.com/forums/997-forum/812247-ims-seal-removal-to-prevent-failure-anyone.html
http://986forum.com/forums/general-discussions/43117-excellence-say-just-remove-ims-outer-seal.html
Thanks Macca!
So a EPS roller bearing is about $490 USD plus delivery and fitting? So quite a deal cheaper than the various LN options.
It does worry me that EPS state the reason for the failure is: "The design flaw with the factory IMS was the use of ball bearings in an extremely high load application" when the loading on this bearing is only that imposed by one chain drive. ie bugger all.
I'm going to go with the IMS solution. A fair chunk of the cost of any option is getting to the area in the first place, so I figure once you are in there you may as well go the whole way...
Yes, it was about $700 AUD. I would say abit more for the install. (1500 all up)
Yes agreed, the load is light,but from what I have read - according to America; the earlier dual row bearings had a 1% failure as opposed to the 8% of the single (half the load capacity). I read until my eyes bleed and like anyone with anxiety from an unchanged IMS, I would have moments of not enjoying the car. I
MO I think that the main catalyst to the bearing wear is lubrication. All the main players DOF,EPS and IMS solution address this, I guess anything has to be an improvement on the OEM. My budget didn't permit IMS solution, so thought to give the EPS a spin
+1 Go the whole hog.
Don't stop
Macca,
I think the primary failure mechanism is due to a conspiracy of torsional vibration in the IMS and no axial preloading causing the balls to skid rather than reliably roll. None of the threads I've read on this topic, except for one or two on PFA have ever referenced this failure mode even though it is a well documented and the reason ball bearings are commonly preloaded by a wave washer (alternators and electric motors), shimming (Ducati main bearings spring to mind) or some other means such as preloading two ball bearings against each other. Why Porsche could ignore this well known failure mode I do not know.
I think the change from small to large, single to double row just changes the resonance frequency or rpm at which the failure mode is likely to occur. Some on the threads comment that cars that are revved freely seem to survive better than the cars that are kept at low rpm and this apparent correlation could be the result of the valvetrain loading at higher speeds is less "spikey" than at low speeds.
The whole subject is fraught with heresy, no reliable data and vested interests. Further, despite my efforts to be rational, I still can't assess my risk tolerance or appetite for these engines. Say the catastrophic failure rate for all the know failure modes of these engines - IMS bearing, cam chain tensioners, D chucking, head cracking, bore scoring , crank bearing failure due to aeration - is less than say 1% (as apposed to 2%, or 5% or even 8% as has been reported) am I willing to take that risk and be prepared for that possibility.
Reality shows the vast majority of these engines will live long and happy lives and if I had to make the choice between a M96/97 engine car or no Porsche at all, I'd take the risk. For me $50 to 60k for a 2006ish Cayman makes a compelling proposition.
As for precautions, I would change the oil regularly for the sole reason that I could check for debris on the magnetic sump plug and the oil filter (and not because I think fresh oil has some magic quality like some thread posters say), install a lower temp thermostat and take care to drive gently until fully warmed up, keep an eye and ear on the condition of the cam chain tensioners and with the IMS bearing either replace with the IMS Solution or more likely just pop the seal(s) off the factory bearing so that any debris created within can escape.
Oh and drive the f'k out of it!
Sorry, like all posts on this topic, I haven't been much help!
It's very subjective. I think it really boils down to your gut feeling about the car and your current $$ situation.
There is evidence of a problem, there are solutions,
naysayers, optimists, gamblers etc..
Just need stick
the possibility of wasted money / driving angst / security / optimism in a blender and see what comes out....
Jim.
no i haven't been drinking yet, but will be if my Liberty GT sells this afternoon - which will open up all sorts of "upgrade" possibilities!!
IMS update v PSS10.......ummm
That's what I hate about it, all subjectivity and little reliable fact!
Thinking back over the last 3 years on PFA I can only recall one catastrophic failure of a M96 due to the oil pump likely ingesting some debris that resulted in the oil pump drive from the IMS shearing and a whole lot of other damage occuring. I can only recall one person finding their IMS bearing on the cusp of failure when they where installing an aftermarket one.
Not exactly armageddon is it?
GLWS Jim BTW!
Pete,
Do you think I need a magnetic sump plug even with IMS solution? And what do you call regular for oil changes. I'll only be doing about 3-5,000km per year so was planning on just doing it annually.
Dee,
If you go the bullet proof IMS Solution and change your oil annually on those sort of kilometre I reckon you're good.
A magnetic sump plug just allows you to monitor how much ferrous debris is in your oil at each oil change. If there is a sudden increase in debris then somethings a miss. Would it likely save you $$$ on engine repairs? Most likely not unless you're freakishly lucky. You can get similar info by cutting open the oil filter at each change if you're super keen and don't mind a bit of mess.
+1
Just ask the mechanic to keep your filter and chop it up when home if you wish.
Also that IMS guardian - you have to switch on every time you start the car - before cranking the engine - what a PITA. (equally its anxiety if you started driving and forget to turn it on)
https://youtu.be/35o5r1HUMuI
When I was looking to get BWA, the Aussie dealer for LNE, to do a PPI for me I asked about the cost for sorting the IMS the guy quoted me $7K. I walked away and figured they really don't want any of my business.
They have quoted me substantially less for the IMS Solution on a 996 C4. What model car were you getting a quote for? And did the $7,000 include the clutch?
I've dug out the receipt for the Solution done on my car - 02-06-2015
Its total was : $7649.40 Inc
IMS Solution Kit / Clutch Kit / Oil Separator / Expansion tank / Air Mass Meter
Flywheel seal / rear main seal / rad cap /coolant
Replace clutch, rear main seal, fit IMS solution, replace oil vap separator, fit expansion cap, air mass sensor etc..
Parts: $5229.40
Labour: $2420.00
A thought, why don't you guys source the parts from overseas yourself? You'll save on GST, margins etc. Ask someone who's going to be in Europe or US for a couple of weeks to bring back an AOS, IMS Solution, reservoir tank etc. Lots of online shops offer free local shipping if the spend is above certain threshold.
I think there are two problems with buying the parts overseas. First, as I understand it at least with 2001 model 996s, you won't know if you have a single row or dual row IMS until you open it up. And second, anyone who installs it will probably distance themselves from responsibility if there is a problem.
Anyway, picked my car up today and dropped it off for the solution install. After a week's wait for it to get here from Adelaide, I now have another week to wait ...
Picked up the car today and seems to be running well (although peak hour driving does not provide an ideal testing ground).
The old IMS bearing (which I have kept) seems to be fine - plastic cover is in tact and turns smoothly.
Also got major service, including new spark plugs and coil packs, and some other minor things. Once I get time to get the four new PS2 tyres fitted it should be as good as new...
