996/7 IMS Failure

Hi to all, For those who are thinking of a 996/7 and those who have one and are worried about their motor exploding (Intermediate Shaft Failure) take a look at the latest Total 911 article. it would be interesting to find out how many motors have self destructed due to IMS failure ( not over exuberance)in P/Clubs Aust and members of the forum? Cheers Steve.

Yes, good to see a balanced approach, with solutions

seen my share and i ran away in 03

Hi Steve, I bought a copy of Total 911 and read the article. Excellent article. Deals with the facts, how to remedy and prevent etc. Even more interesting was the Welcome note on page 3 by editor Philip Raby; "Every driver of a modern 911 or Boxter is sitting on a time bomb about to blow up with expensive consequences. Or so the internet forums would have you think, if you look up issues with IMS (intermediate shaft) bearing failures. This has always bugged me. I get to drive lots of modern Porsches and speak to countless owners and to technicians who repair them. And you know what? I've never had personal experience of IMS failure. Lucky? Perhaps, but it's more likely that it's because IMS failure is relatively rare - our research suggests that less than 5% of cars are effected. So that's why, in this issue, we cut through the hysteria and explain clearly what IMS failure is, and talk to people who know the problem inside and out. It's an important article that, I hope, will reassure owners of effected cars and anyone who's thinking of buying one." Key to these cars is to know the facts and stats, work the 5% likelyhood into your purchasing decision and make an informed decision. Four years ago I went thought the same process and have very much enjoyed my car. Regards, Andy S

Please excuse my ignorance but is this a magazine thta available, or an online thing only?

Hi Andy and Whipit, Nice addition to the article Andy but it shows how you have to take a lot of whats on some forums with a grain of salt. I think some people just like to spread bad news without much to back the claims up. Whipit, Total 911 issue 69 out last week, leaning toward this mag as my preferred but as most of us will pick up most of the regular mags. Cheers Steve.

just another urban myth then?

Hi Jnr356, Obviously not an Urban mirth, but do they deserve the bad rap they get? I can tell you factual stories on the new VW Golf, blowing motors and turbos I have one and have done 200000K+ in three years and would get another one even with the problems. I think its called eyes wide open. Cheers Steve.

Hi All, anybody know where I can buy this mag in Adelaide?

Hi Whipit, I had to go to 3 newsagents before I found someone that stocked Total 911. It is a good article and worth reading. Has a bit about basic care and 'good habits' to be in. ie/ warming up and warming down does even mention 'don't pussyfoot' with the car they are designed to see the upper end of the tacho (without redlining every gear change). They say that this actually helps get oil 'splash' to the deepest darkest corners of the engine and help protect this bearing. Again they are talking of only about a 5% failure rate. The cost of bearing upgrades represents about 15% of the cost of a rebiuld so I would question doing the replacement but it depests on how you like to play the odds. If you cant find the mag send me a personal message with your details and I will be happy to copy it and send it to you. Regards, Andy S

Hi Andy, Thanks for the reply, I will do the run around and see if I can find a stockist. Gary

Hi Gary, if you have an Ipad you can get an APP also Iphone but much better on Ipad. I have had volume 71 for two weeks. So I am two months in front of what the newsagents have. It comes up on the App as soon as it is released for sale in the UK and costs $5.99 a copy instead of around $10 for the paper version. Cheers chris

Hi Chris, sorry mate not a mac kind of guy, good old fashioned paper for me

Can you please tell me the page where this is in Total 911 (I suppose it is number 71 , right, latest ) ? I bought it on my iphone but damn if I can find it; very small and hard to read/search. I do not recommend this on the iphone, I don't have an Ipad (yet). thanks a lot.

http://www.total911.com/news/996-engine-failure-should-you-be-worried/ I found it on the web, is this it ? Thanks

Thanks for posting that. Interesting article, I just rang my Porsche service guy here in Adelaide. I asked him straight up "am I driving a hand grenade waiting to blow" His answer no, there were some problems with very early cars, not so much later ones, the ones he has seen with problems were quote "not without good reason like track work or poor maintenance" Not sure what to make of it all really, I guess realistically just drive it and enjoy it.

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Hi T/124 Issue 69 is the one you need it has only just hit our newsagents, the article you have found on the internet is old (2009) but along the same lines, a lot more extra info in the latest issue. cheers Steve.

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Try the newsagents in the suburbs with the highest density of P Car ownership.

Expensive problem if it happens and you don't catch it in time: Certainly. But every car/engine has problem areas and we just know a lot more about our engines than the average car owner. Why is it so publicized: Because Porsche hasn't provided information or a preventative fix. Because you have to replace your engine or have a total rebuild and that costs bundles. How prevalent: maybe 1%/car/year. When can it happen: Any time between 5km and 300km. But only on cars with an IMS so the latest Boxsters, 997s and Caymans are immune. Anything you can do cheaply to prevent/detect the problem: Change oil much more frequently than the book calls for...maybe 4-5 times as often. Install an oil filler plug with a magnet. Check the contents of the oil filter or magnetic plug on every oil change. If ferrous metal is detected (test with magnet) have IMS changed immediately without driving a single km. Use good oil. What can you do to significantly increase the probability it doesn't happen to your engine: 1. Replace the existing IMS bearing assembly with one with improved wear characteristics and better lubrication scheme. See LNengineering.com 2. Replace the oil filler plug with a plug equipped with a method of detecting the problem in its early stages. Not available yet but in test from flat6innovation.com. Isn't there something cheaper: Pelican says they will have a cheaper IMS bearing replacement kit out but it will not use the ceramic bearing that the LN kit uses. A comparison of the kits is available here http://sites.google.com/site/mikefocke2/mikesporscheboxsterwebpages/ims-kits and while the site is 986 Boxster oriented, the engines aren't that different <grin>. Replace your IMS and RMS at least when you do your clutch.

Hi All, just would like to know if anyone on here has had this happen to them. I am not after, I knew a guy who knew a guy..... or this magazine said this, or that..... or I was in at the Porsche centre and I saw this car..... Has any member of this forum ever had a 996 have an IMS failure happen to THEM? Just interested.

Didn't think so, I personally think its a beat up /urban myth. But the good news is its making the 996 prices low which brings them into the reach of a lot more people.

aint no urban myth,saw plenty whilst working at porsche melbourne believe what you want

With all due respect, I thought my questions was pretty clear, I didnt want to hear the "saw plenty....." brigade. Has anyone on this forum been behind the wheel of a 996 when there has been an IMS failure? Pretty simple questions isnt it? It's not about me "believing" anything, it's about trying to find out the facts.

whatever champ

no worries chump, I will take that as a no..

most were done under warranty,i doubt that porsche would have filled in the clients as to specific details i only repaired one personally,diagnosed many others at the beginning they tried another type of bearing as a cure,some worked some didn't the symptoms were leaking around the rear main area,gearboxes were coming out left,right and centre initially,it was thought the rear main seals were faulty 2 instances i was present during was when cars came in for their 1st service(3,000k's)and the owners were told their cars would be 2 weeks because they needed new engines other symptoms were running rough,noise from engine and quite a few just wouldn't start in the morning. but you don't seem to want to hear that do you really think porsche would publicise this? resort to the name calling,as i said believe what you want but urban myth ,no! and those are the facts as i know them have a nice day

well said jnr, some 996 owners just dont wont to hear it though

Ok guys, I need to step in here. I just want to remind everyone just how lucky we all are to have such great cars and to be able to share the passion. There are people everywhere who could only ever dream to be in our position. Please be kind to each other and continue to enjoy our wonderful cars and share the knowledge that some of those amongst us have. Cheers Chris

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I agree Chris. I have deliberately kept out of this (for obvious reasons). Many will have preferences of one model over another but one thing needs to be remembered is that all porsches provide an experience for the owner that many will never get do enjoy. Relax boys

Lets not forget how lucky we are to have the likes of Jnr on this forum. We are all Porsche fans. However, to have some with the inside knowledge is an asset. This issue is a fact,but rare. 996 is a great car with a potential issue. Better to be aware.

Jnr356, apologies the "chump" reference, and tone, it was out of line. I am an absolute novice with regards to P cars, I let the keyboard get the better of me. I agree, the forum is somewhere to share the passion, not aggression. Hopefully you will accept my apology. To clarify, I am certainly not sticking my head in the sand that it doesn't/didn't happen, what I really want to know if first hand from someone it happened too, what they were doing at the time and what caused it. What concerns me is the way the problem is portrayed my car is a ticking time bomb and will be forever. Somewhere someone said, "could happen at 1,500km, could happen at 150,000km, who knows" or words to that effect. So called "infant failures" are not uncommon in engineering, particularly with a completely new design. If the failure was this then at least I can sleep easy, and not worry every time the tacho heads up near 7,000 rpm, after all that is the enjoyment of these cars. That's why I am interested in listening to someone (more than one) who it actually happened too, particularly if it had a few km's on the clock, to see what they were really doing at the time. Hopefully we can get back to chatting about our cars instead of arcing people up, sorry for that. Gary

Gary thank you for making the apology. I think that the more you can find out about these issues the more you can do to prevent/minimise the chances of it occurring to your own prized posession. If you can't get your hands on the article then you can contact AndyS who has previously made an offer to you in an earlier post. I have never met jnr356 but I have read many of his postings on this forum over a long period of time and I have to say that his P-Car knowledge is very impressive and his opinion very creditable. But good on you for getting him to write the longest post I have ever seen from him IMHO

all good guys vas you flatter me douglas you're a funny man

Enjoying the love................

Well finally got a chance to sit down and read the article (thanks Andy). All seems to make sense, I guess the truth is any car can fail. My car is a tiptronic so changing when the clutch is being done isn't going to work for me. Hard to know what to do really other than drive it, I certainly don't want to sell it, but it does make me think twice about one day doing a bit of track work with it which is a petty as it is one of the reasons I bought it. Truthfully it does appear to be a bit of a luck dip. My car was very low mileage, but now is driven 500k's a week, so hard to know if that's good or bad, pretty much the whole IMS thing all over... Again would really be nice to hear from someone who it has happened too, especially with a few km on the clock just to find out exactly how they were treating it at the time. Gary

2002 996 manual with 79000 miles. Original clutch and no RMS or IMS issue. I don't track the car and change oil every year or around 7000 miles in Southern California. I think this IMS is the same kinda myth spreading the Porsche 928 forums regarding premature broken timing belt which does happen due to defective water pumps, high mileage cars in hot or vey cold climate but is not something to lose sleep. My Porsche 928 first timing belt was replaced around 100,000 miles not reading Porsche recommended 60,000 mile replacement. However I'll have the IMS and RMS inspected at clutch replacement. Problems I had was a leaky coolant tank $120(ebay) , ignition swith $15(audi/vw part), tires, and regular maintenance. No labor since I work on my own cars. Here is the article. http://www.autofarm.co.uk/pdf/Total911_July06.pdf 2002 Porsch 996 79000 miles 1986 Porsche 928 32V 5 SPEED. 188,000 miles

Has anyone had a 986 Boxster IMS failure?

Hi there, My first post on the forum, and a sad one at that. Bought a very clean and tidy 1998 996 Carerra 2 from PIckles Auction last week 157k with full logbooks and service history, . Drove it only 8kms up the highway, and temps hit 100+ and creeping to 120. Turn off, pull over and smoke coming out of the engine bay, blue smoke not white. Not sure what it is yet, but the water bottle is dry and when I opened the oil there was mayo spitting out of it. I'm pretty sure thats the reason it was flogged through an auction. Probably not an IMS failure, maybe a cylinder has let go, or cylinder head, but I think I'm up for a new engine. Ah well the car came very cheap, at least I've got about another $12k - $15k to spend before I'd be losing money on it. I have 2 356's and have rebuilt engines on classics but never done much with modern stuff apart from servicing. I have a hoist, workshop (for my classics), and a good tool set. Just wondering if I should buy a second hand motor (maybe a 3.6 not a 3.4) from the states and do an engine swap. Anyone any ideas on how hard it might be? I brought in a 356SC motor for my 60 356 Super90 recently and it was about $7k all up. Well looks like I'll be busy for the next few months, and learning a lot about 996's Any tips much appreciated. Thanks Steve

Sorry to hear this, Steve. Not sure on the prices on a reco 996 engine. Have a think about a 997 engine for it. The 996 has had a few issues, IMS and a few valve seat problems. Please let us know what you find. Good luck with the fix.

What’s everyone’s thoughts if the 996 has had the 3.4lt replaced under warranty? Risk just as high? Replacement motor any better?

As I understand it, the risk of failure with a replacement engine is exactly the same as with the original one because the engine is fundamentally the same. Some things to bear in mind: 1 - As I've posted before, nobody truly knows the size of the problem because lots of people go online to post that their engine has suffered IMS failure but very few go online to post that their car is fine. This is not to dispute that there is a problem, merely to raise the flag that the stats are not really known. 2 - The LN Engineering IMS bearing update seems to be an effective cure. It's a relatively inexpensive piece of preventative maintenance, and should be seriously considered on any 996/986 that is having its clutch replaced. 3 - There is a 'warning system' on the market that monitors the engine oil for bits of metallic debris to alert you to the fact that your IMS bearing has headed south. TBH, I'm not convinced of the merits of this system for a bunch of reasons, not least the fact that it does nothing to diminish the likelihood of the problem occurring. 4 - If you feel lucky (well, do ya? do ya?) you could always test the maxim that lightning doesn't strike the same place twice. Although those with any knowledge of exactly how lighting works may wish to dispute that notion. James

Great analogy James! A lightning strike and an IMS failure both have catastrophic results. There is a great deal of info out there about this, I wonder how many 996/7 engines are still running without any remedial work to overcome this problem. rEd

Ha Ha. One fries your feet, the other your wallet.

Hi all, havent been on here for a while, thought I would post an update. I bought my 996 about 2 years ago with 16k on the clock, it was mint, a 2002 3.6. Since then have driven as a daily driver, its now done 66k. Absoluetly awesome car, love evrything about it. I have it serviced by the boys at Buick here in Adelaide, no sign of an IMS problem, but from what I read it is a little like that, you dont know until it (possibly) happens. I drive it pretty hard, often revving it to 7k, no track work though, but again with what I have read, that can work for you at it helps splash the oil around to keep the bearing lubricated. S all good so far

Good on you Gary, glad to hear that the car has run faultlessly for you and good to have you back on the forum... Gee clocked up some km's in that time and I bet you have enjoyed every one of them..... Cheers Chris

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Thanks, yea I live about 45 minutes north of my office and drive it every day. Actually I drive the car every chance I get. Never tire of driving it. They really must be just about the perfect everyday performance car. Only thing I would say is occasionaly I wish I got the manual, but then when you do as many k's as I do I think that would lose its appeal pretty quickly. Really happy with the car, absolutely love it

Well, I guess it had to happen. Driving home last Monday night, pulling away from the lights, pop, minor back fire, car suddenly running on 3 cylinders. Get service guys out, dont know, have to flat bed it to my P mechanic, bit of poking around, snapped timing chain. Bugger it, may or may not be IMS related, most likely bent the valves, who knows what else. Very very dissapointed, a car that has about 60k on the clock, automatic, and never been near a race track in its life. Occasionally revved reasonably, always warmed up, regularly serviced, good oil etc etc. Mr Porsche, simply not good enough, extremely dissapointed...

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that is a fkn Joke, i'd be seriously pissed off!! As you said not good enough, hope it is not as bad as what it sounds. and not too expensive to fix.

Yep, and what can I do??? To be honest, I had never even heard of an IMS failure before I bought it. I have just read so much about a 911 being a car you can drive to the track, fang around all day, then drive home and pick the kids up from school. What a bloody joke that is. I mean seriously, a car having a timing chain failure after 60,000 km? A Commodore lasts longer than that. I am just really really dissapointed. Cant see it being cheap to fix no matter how "minor" it is.

I feel your pain and disappointment whipit that is a real bummer. Like JJ hope it's not as bad as it sounds. Sincerely good luck with it.

That's truly shattering, Gary. I really feel for you. Don't know what else to say! Please let us know how you get on. Take care Chris

I am really feeling for you. That is an absolute SH*T. IMS is like that relative you hope doesn't come to visit, but a timing chain at 60K????? Hope it all goes better than expected.

Lets hope its not too bad. Good luck with it.

do the 996TT's have this IMS problem?

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No they don't. The 996 and 997 Turbo, GT2 and GT3 models all have what is known as the "Mezger" engine, named after the man who designed it. It's basically a watercooled version of the aircooled engines, and is much more robust.

Yea well done Porsche, one has to ask the question, why did they feel the need to have two engine designs? The cynic in me says because they knew the regular engine was poorly designed and would have reliablity problems. So if they knew that why use it at all, tell me is that the Porsche way? Well done, push something you know has problems onto your unsuspecting (and trusting) client base. First and only Porsche I will ever buy, actually think is borderline dishonest. To say i am gutted is an understatement. Its just BS, my car simply could not have been treated or looked after better, period. One extremely unhappy lost future customer. And believe me I will be spreading the word every chance I get, they deserve it. Every single person driving a 996 is driving a ticking time bomb, we are not talking about a $30,000 Hundai, its supposed to be the pinnacle of automotive design and development.

Whipit. I feel for you and understand where you at coming from. The biggest fear I had when I owned the 996 was the RMS letting go. I never planned on owning the car without an extends factory warranty. I took it out for the fourth year and then sold the car due to kids arriving. I was going to purchase a 996 C4S to tie me over till the 991 was released but couldn't bring myself to do it knowing about the RMS issues. When I questioned PCM about it the were quite sheepish and didn't want to say too much. If it was under warranty then all would have been good but at this point in time you are potentially up the creek. Have you owned the car since new or did you buy used? I guess the 996 and 997.1 are problem cars for Porsche but it has t stopped them from selling cars. Good luck with your problem. Hope it turns out well for you.

No I bought the car 2nd hand. I looked for over a year. I bought it from a guy in Sydney, he kept it in his garage and drove it on week ends. It had 16k on the clock. Full service history form the Porsche centre in Sydney, I rang them and spoke to them about the history of it. When I got it, it still had the original tyres, it was absolutely mint, never been near a track. I drive it daily, always warmed up, regularly serviced, I think only a few weeks ago was the last service. To be honest I thought this IMS thing was an urban myth. Seriously I am just so disappointed. Not sure I will ever feel the same driving it again. I mean who wants to drive a performance car always wondering every time they put the accelerator down that it will cost them 10 grand. Very very unhappy. Anyhow lets wait and see. But i mean they have to pull the engine out, that's not cheap in itself. Bugger it.

I'm very sorry to read about this happening to your engine Whipit. Whilst a failed IMS may have snapped your timing chain, it may also be nothing what so ever to do with the IMS. It was only a week ago that I mentioned on this forum that I know of a few 996s to have suffered timing chain failures recently. One being a mate here in the UK a few months ago and the other being a Rennlister in the US. As it happens there was another guy here recently that did have a failed IMS and he was fortunate enough to get away with minimal damage. Here's a link to the UK guy's post with the snapped timing chain http://www.911uk.com...pic.php?t=74946 Good luck with yours, unfortunately I don't expect that it will be a cheap fix, hopefully the link might give you some insights. This is the link to the US guy's post (Page 12, post 178 is where he figures out its a snapped timing chain). http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/996-forum/692878-engine-is-damaged-not-an-ims-failure-12.html

Thanks for that. Will have to wait and see exactly what has happened and what damage it's done. Minimum I guess will be bent valves and what goes along with that, worst case doesn't bear thinking about. I am trying to not worry too much about it, but unfortunately I am not doing a very good job of it, i love my car. I think it's the realisation that at least for this model the whole Porsche mystique of engineering and reliability is really a myth. Driving it wont be the same again, unfortunately they are just another mass produced car. If it was just a once off piece of bad luck fair enough, but its not, these are known problems that Porsche chose not to do anything about. Probably what has saved them is most 911 owners don't rack up that many kilometres that quickly, and to most of us spending $10k on an engine rebuild isn't that big a deal. If holden had a Commodore with a problem like this there would be a public out cry. My car was $240k new, it's just not good enough. Last Porsche for me sadly, very very unhappy Jan.

Whipit, very sorry to hear of your troubles, 60K klms is just BS, I must admit i tracked my 996 & it never missed a beat but i always had the IMS in the back of my mind which probably pushed me to the 997.2 to get away from it. If your car is being serviced by a P dealer i would have a strong go at trying to get some subsidy, i think if you push hard enough they should br sympathetic. All the best.

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I had no success today trying to have a look at that page, looks like it is no longer available for viewing unfortunately.

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Hi Niko, It was Jan/Feb 2011 I put the post up and issue 69 Total 911,they have run more articals since but if you want i can find the back issue and try to scan it for you. cheers Steve.

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Hey Niko, try this one. http://www.autofarm.co.uk/pdf/Total911_July06.pdf

Thanks Steve and Jim, I was just checking on that post to see what Adrian was going to be reading so no need for the scanning Steve, but appreciate the offer. Thanks Jim That auto farm site should help Adrian.

Well, I have just been to the mechanics. Seems the more I look into the NA 996 the more issues there are, last count supposedly there are 20 issues, the IMS failure only being one. There is an oil pump driven off the end of the camshaft. Seems its not uncommon for them to seize (in a Porsche?????). When they do (like mine) they immediately snap the timing chain. In doing so the pistons then strike at least two of the valves bending them (like mine), if your unlucky and doing maximum revs (I wasn't) it can damage the top of the pistons in the process (mine didn't) but it also can damage the chain sprocket on the end of the intermediate shaft (like mine) Now the wonderful thing is that (a) the chain is not a split chain, so it can not be simply replaced and b. the only way to remove the intermediate shaft is to separate the two halves of the block, i.e. a total disassembly. Now with a car that's done any mileage at all, in my case 60,000 it makes no sense to do only one head up (the damaged one) so I am up for a valve grind etc. for both, and also since the engine is in total disassembly I may as well fit new bearings and rings, oh and of course the upgraded IMS bearing. So all up I looking at around $12,000, maybe more, all because of a KNOWN weakness in a Porsche 911 that the factory chooses nothing to do about. This is not a shopping trolley, its supposed to be the pinnacle of sports car engineering. Its hard to not be anything other than utterly dismayed by all of this. This is a car with just 60,000km on the clock, that literally is driven daily to work and back by a middle aged businessman. It has never been near a race track in its life and regularly serviced as per the manufacturers recommendation faithfully. I know its 10 years old, but come off it. My advice is if you are thinking of buying a normally aspirated 996 is simply don't. I have read about owners putting away a small amount in a kitty "just in case" but seriously, do you really want to be driving around in a car that at any moment THROUGH NO FAULT OF YOUR OWN will blow the engine up costing over $10,000 to repair? Mr Porsche, very very disappointed.

Had a 996 3.4 many years ago... In a period of 18 months had fuel pump , AFM, gearbox failures...6 months after i sold the car IMS issue and the engine let go... I thought they rectified the issue with the later 3.6s and 997 though... Theres a reason why early 996's can be had for SC money..

Nope, ALL normally aspirated 996's are the same. They are an absolutely sub standard example of engine design. Sorry to offend any Porsche lovers on here, but maybe it's time someone told the truth. edit : removed incorrect ref to later model.

Sorry, I need to add something. The inference that somehow the fact they are cheap is total bs. I paid $90k for mine, I am sorry for a 10 year old car that is not cheap. The problem is the lie that has been pedalled that a Porsche is somehow above every other car. They simply aren't. In fact it is ironic that I am driving around in a commodore with 110,000 km on the clock after not missing a beat whilst my 911 is being completely rebuilt after only 60,000 km. I actually had to wait for mine to be rebuilt as they were rebuilding a boxster that had had an IMS failure. This stuff is real.

Hey Whipit . Really unfortunate and no doubt irritating event. Mate, you are pissed, and rightly so. Yes the car is a Porrsche and cost mega dollars when new. But like any luxury car its also bloody expensive to service, maintain and repair. All cars have issues of some kind. My 993 may suffer from worn valve guides and need a top end in the very near future, but I knew that and bought the car with that accounted for. Have a look at the Ferrari forums and you will then understand how deep.a pocket you need. At the end of the day that's how it is. No its not good enough, but when I spend $100K I'm going to do my research first.

Hey Whipit . Really unfortunate and no doubt irritating event. Mate, you are pissed, and rightly so. Yes the car is a Porrsche and cost mega dollars when new. But like any luxury car its also bloody expensive to service, maintain and repair. All cars have issues of some kind. My 993 may suffer from worn valve guides and need a top end in the very near future, but I knew that and bought the car with that accounted for. Have a look at the Ferrari forums and you will then understand how deep.a pocket you need. At the end of the day that's how it is. No its not good enough, but when I spend $100K I'm going to do my research first.

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Just for the sake of accuracy, the 997 is different. I believe that the very earliest 997's had the same IMS bearing as the 996, but it was soon changed to an uprated design. Beyond that, the "997.2", from 2009 onwards, had a DFI engine, which is a totally different engine.

997.2 engine eliminated the IMS altogether, that's right isn't it, James?

That is correct - no IMS in the DFI engine. (I would have posted earlier, but I wanted to be completely certain. If possible, I prefer to avoid contributing to "internet facts".)

It is a shame Whipit, very sad to hear............... Generally speaking though the 911 has earned its stripes, agree that the 996 is not the 911's finest hour though.

Apologies re the 997 mistake, I agree what the world does not need more of are internet "truths". I have edited my comment and removed the 997 reference. I do take a little exception to the quote above "No its not good enough, but when I spend $100K I'm going to do my research first" I assume the inference is I should have done my research. But that is exactly the problem, because Porsche have chosen to remain silent about the issues, its actually hard (almost impossible) to find any real actual data on the true extent of the problem. In fact if you read through this entire thread from the beginning you will see I was sceptical that there really was a problem at all, I thought it may have been an internet based beat up. I thought to myself surely Porsche would not release an engine like that and not publish anything about it. These problems are real, any person driving a NA 996 right now is quite literally driving a ticking time bomb - Fact - Period. I am posting this in the hope that it helps someone else "Doing their research" because there is precious little information out there to go by. The IMS is not by a long stretch the only issue with these engines. With my car the IMS bearing was perfect. It was a totally unrelated problem.

Just for clarity, my reference to "internet facts" was not intended as a dig at you, Whipit. And as Hugh said above - very sad to hear. James

Gary, I really do feel for you. It sounds like you have been terribly unlucky with what has happened to your car. I do feel the need to defend the Porsche marque though. Everyone on this forum is deeply enamored to the brand. Yes the 996 did have some issues but then it's pretty unusual for there not to be some problem with anything that is mechanical. I believe that the first of the Ferrari 458's had a penchant for self combustion. On a car that was close to 450k that would be rather devastating... Even the venerable 993 had issues with transmission shafts on the early versions of the turbo. I also personally know of an Audi limited edition RS5 that detonated the engine after less than 5000km. A car that 200k. So faults are not limited to Porsches. These are just some examples to put some perspective on the issue. I do understand your need to vent your frustration but don't give up on the brand. I read some of your comments before this issue came to light and you were absolutely in love with your car. So don't forget that feeling and while yes you have a engine rebuild to pay for you will have an absolutely awesome car come out the other end. Enjoy it when you get it back and put this down to one of those life experiences. Oh and just so you know I had an absolutely mint 930 that had an oil leak that ended up costing me 8k for a rebuild to fix the leak 6 years ago so I do understand what you are going through..... Cheers and best wishes Chris

Sorry to hear it whipit! Ouch!!! I too have a 996 carrera and love it dearly, I replace the oil every 10k and do all the recommended services. It is a shame that these cars are tar'd with the ims brush as they are a great car. I recently spoke to my Porsche mech about an IMS bearing upgrade for my car and he said it is a small issue for the amount of cars built vs the cars effected . I guess it's a matter of paying $1500 for an upgrade or chancing it and pay $10000 for a rebuild should something happen. I am annoyed at the bad publicity this IMS issue has for the Marque being a fan of every Porsche ever made. When you own a 996 you don't want to hear slagging about 996 IMS issues and water cooled jokes, at the end of the day we are all enthusiasts and enjoy our cars every time we drive them! Danny996

$1500, cheap insurance Niko's done it for peace of mind.

Yeah true red3.2 it is a small price to pay for Piece of mind!

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I actually sold my last P car the 996 Millenium edition 6 years ago because of the same issue, there wasn't a fix back then as it wasn't that well known but if I had the option to fix it, it would have been done without thinking twice and kept it as it was a beautifal car to drive and own. Just the thought that it could self destruct at any time didn't sit right with me.

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Yep cut off the possible problem at the pass. Followed advice, from wiser heads than mine, "better safe than sorry" is a good policy. AndyS also did the same with his 996. May have never happened......but..... I agree it is a stain on the great Porsche name, but the stain is there, so bite the bullet fix it and move on. Ignore the problem at your own peril. Sorry if that sounds a bit harsh.

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That's a bloody disgrace that people take the piss out of you like that. Bloody disrespectful air-cooled drivers!!!!

I also subscribe to the view that all Porsches have their issues, it's the price we pay for enjoying a marque that pushes the performance limits whilst still trying to remain economically viable. Porsches are all about evolution and I'm not really surprised that the 996/boxster brought with it some fresh issues in the transition to a mass production based watercooled flat six (as opposed to evolutions of the more expensive mezger design). I too went with the pre-emptive IMS replacement (unnecessarily as it turned out - my IMS was perfect) and temperature reduction measures to address issues that I was aware of. It's a real shame when owners get caught out by issues like failed timing chains and oil pump drives because those events are costly to resolve and it doesn't make the owner feel any better knowing that they are one of an unlucky minority. I also subscribe to the view that these are awesome cars in so many ways, They are so rewarding to drive and I know that I get a lot of joy from simply seeing the cars sitting in the driveway (assuming they are running , perhaps a bit less joy whilst I am awaiting some expensive part to be delivered ). |Then again it's all relative. I remember being at the track one day and talking to a guy who raced a few Ferraris and he was lamenting the fact that his Ferraris were great to drive but they were considerably more expensive to maintain than his GT3s,

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Well to some degree this is correct with the 996/986 engines but not quite right with the GT3 engine - still a NA engine. Feel for you and the main reason I got rid of mine 6 years ago plus the introduction of a new family member....

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Look I know I am coming across as a bit of a pain in the "you know what"..... but, I am only keeping going with this thread because I think the truth should be out there so people can make informed decisions. My car WAS NOT an IMS failure. In fact my IMS bearing was perfect. Anyone out there who thinks that changing the IMS bearing will "solve" the 996 NA (excluding GT3) issue(s) are mistaken. My car simply could not have been better or more thoroughly maintained. I spared no expense on it and was meticulous in servicing. The oil pump spontaneously seized, which then broke the timing chain, which then bends valves, damages the sprocket on the ims shaft, which requires total disassembly to fix. All up $12k and running...... On a car with 60,000 km.... My issue is that THESE ARE KNOWN PROBLEMS TO PORSCHE and they choose to ignore them.

Gary, I really do feel for you. It sounds like you have been terribly unlucky with what has happened to your car. I do feel the need to defend the Porsche marque though. Everyone on this forum is deeply enamored to the brand. Yes the 996 did have some issues but then it's pretty unusual for there not to be some problem with anything that is mechanical. I believe that the first of the Ferrari 458's had a penchant for self combustion. On a car that was close to 450k that would be rather devastating... Even the venerable 993 had issues with transmission shafts on the early versions of the turbo. I also personally know of an Audi limited edition RS5 that detonated the engine after less than 5000km. A car that 200k. So faults are not limited to Porsches. These are just some examples to put some perspective on the issue. I do understand your need to vent your frustration but don't give up on the brand. I read some of your comments before this issue came to light and you were absolutely in love with your car. So don't forget that feeling and while yes you have a engine rebuild to pay for you will have an absolutely awesome car come out the other end. Enjoy it when you get it back and put this down to one of those life experiences. Oh and just so you know I had an absolutely mint 930 that had an oil leak that ended up costing me 8k for a rebuild to fix the leak 6 years ago so I do understand what you are going through..... Cheers and best wishes Chris Again....

I feel your pain Whipit. Making the 996 community aware of issues that have occurred is a good thing, - not wanting to diminish your personal situation I'd go on to say that it is then it is up to the readers to make a judgement on just how prevalent the issue is. Whilst I don't recall hearing about a lot of oil pump drives being the root cause of an engine failure I do recall that one of the US aftermarket parts companies has had an upgraded oil pump drive available for several years now. In the forum browsing that I have done over the years Whipit's is the first one that I've noticed who has reported the oil pump drive as being the root cause of his engine failure. Given that 175000+ 996s were manufactured and there doesn't seem to have been that many cases of owners reporting this failure I don't think I'd drop my engine to replace just the oil pump drives but I will probably replace the oil pump drives when I replace my timing chains. Well that is my approach to managing the risk given the potential outcome weighed up against the liklihood of the issue occuring

Hi All, Really sorry to see this happen to you Gary. From reading the above posts this sounds like a really rare problem which I am sure will only be adding to your frustration. The IMS issue (although unrelated to yours) is the one that generally stained the 996 / 986 reputation. Thankfully the LN engineering is a relatively low cost preventative fix. Niko and I both did our cars at roughly the same time. This aside problems seem to be relatively rare. I have seen some mention of heat related bore scoring which I spoke to my mechanic about and he has seen a few. I'm going to put it out there - I love my 996! I have had it 6 years and very much enjoy driving it. Unfortunately things can go wrong. Chris had a rebuild on his 930, I had a mate blow a DSG tranny on a golf (car was 2 years old) and my mate who works in the industry has seen M5 V10's destroy themselves as well. All not good but unfortunately something we all, as P car owners, need to understand can happen. Hope you do a great rebuild Gary and keep the car. I remember how you spoke of your enjoyment driving it and I look forward to see you enjoy it again. Regards Andy S

Gary Just read this thread. That is pretty ordinary and I'd say probably and extra-ordinary failure. However at the very least you have your car back and running, which is good. It is a symptom of "The Change' Porsche went through and adopted a completely new way of manufacturing, which they have now evolved to the point where there is no need to run two different engine designs. I colleague is considering buying a $42k 996 Carrera Manual with 107k km's on the clock. He kept asking me why its so 'cheap' when compared to older models. My advice to him was that if he wants the car to have the IMS upgrade done straight away and make sure that it doesn't have 0W or 5W oil in it. Install the larger sump and the magnetic plug. Its just a shame that such an iconic Brands name with its core values in engineering and longevity was watered down by this M96/M97 issue. However, if we look back this is not and isolated case. The 964 Mezger engine has some oridnary faults and leaks early on in its production. The 993 Mezger engine has some horrid premature valve guide wear and failures producing a Check engine light that wouldn't go away with out a top end rebuild The Transaxle 924/944/968/928 has some fundemental flaws, however these could be remedied with over zealous replacement and servicing (ie: Cash) Magnesium case Mezger engines pulled studs and the case halves shuffled/moved under load Most mezger six engines head studs break eventually.................. Some Mezger Six engines # 8 Nose bearing seal can fail/leak producing an annoying pool of 'blood' on your Garage floor. FULL rebuild (top and bottom) to fix this. The 915 gearbox synchro's. I like the 915 however its not the most popular or efficient design to come from Zuffenhausen Mezger engined GT3's, Turbo's and GT2's can leak from their RMS if not driven alot or hard............. I could go on...... However when we look at the relative costs of say Secondhand Ferrari, Lamborghini or Maserati ownership then we can see that relatively speaking, Porsche's are quite reliable and even 'cheap' to maintain and repair. I hope you can still enjoy your 996 and not have to endure it. Porsches are all special cars, its just that some of them break down. I haven't got the Stones to buy a 996.

I was on track with a bloke who's 997 GT3 blew it's engine in spectacular fashion about 18 months ago. Porsche didn't cover him for it. So yes even the famed Mezger engine can fail (like all things mechanical). Thankfully he got a new engine and kept on enjoying his car.

Big thrills always = Big Bills.

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Why the advice against 0W or 5W oil, wasserkuhl?

I read something about that, too. A few UK mags have had articles about 996/IMS issues and one of the common recommendations for making your IMS last as long as it can, was to do frequent oil changes (more frequent than the factory recommendation) and to use something a notch or two thicker than the factory-recommended 0W-40 or 5W-40 oil.

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I knew the Oil reference would derive a question. Perhaps I should clarify this as 5w 40 or higher is OK for our climate, perhaps further attention to choice should be given if you are driving your car harder than the average person would. Viscosity is of course important, matched to climate. More frequent dain intervals will also pay you dividends. Using too thick oil will cause just as much damage as too thin oil. OW oils in our climate will not help premature engine failures. However I must say that this is just my opinion derived from my own research and experience in consultation with people like Charles Navarro(LN Engineering) and Oil analysis Lab here locally. I don't want to start an oil thread as Oil is like religion; Best not discussed (you choose and take advice from who you trust based on facts and statistical analysis.) The above is just my personal opinion and I don't wish to start any controversey!!! James I hope that explains my commentary!! .

On the topic of other makes, spoke to a mate this afternoon who has an Audi A4 diesel auto (3.5 years old), just out of warranty. The transmission gave way today - 22k to repair! He has left it with Audi Brighton to see what they can do, most likely will be written off. 22+ grand on a car that's just ticked over 45k klm, 60-70k purchase price. Unreal.

There is a great article which is certainly worth the read in "911 & Porsche World" (Oct) on the M96/M97 engines and the problems and solutions. Very interesting reading indeed......a good 10 pages of it!!!!!!!

22k for the box? wow! Funny that I was only thinking with these new dual clutch jobs now getting around what a repair would cost in the future? Existing single clutch replacements can be costly however I envision these to be sky high. Remember changing my first clutch back in 91 on a Gemini $100 all up cost and four hours or so work doing it myself with dodgy tools - like changing a lightbulb in comparison to today.

Google "DSG Failure" and prepare to be shocked

Just did.... Awful.

Just for fun, jump on any enthusiast forum. Audi, VW, BMW................. they all have some terrible failures that you just wouldn't expect of cars that are so 'young'............I was shocked to learn of the amount of Mechanical failures BMW's made since 2000 encounter. The M96/M97 engines have had failures. Porsche's take on it is this : Statistically there are a very small percentage of these engines that have failed and been replaced under warranty. Some more have failed out of warranty upsetting people who have spent a great deal of hard-borrowed money on what they thought was a modern and reliable prestige car of impeccible engineering heritage. Cayennes have some issues pre-2008 with coolant pipes(plastic) failing, dripping onto starter motors and failing them as well. Cayenne/Panamera Diesels have issues with EGR valves as well.......... People make the leap of faith and go from a Toyota Land cruiser into a Cayenne and get really upset when the vehicle breaks down..........as they should, they just paid $115k for a brand new car. The over engineering stopped in the mid 90's. The only advice I can give people is to get an extremely thorough Pre Purchase inspection done if they are consiering a 996/997, even to get an optical camera in there and look at the bores for scoring or cracks etc..... Its the best cash you will spend on the car.

My wifes Alfa had an engine failure last year, siezed bearing which turned out not to be uncommon when I googled it after the fact. . I did some searching to see how many incidents of oil pump drive failure had been discussed on the net, apart from Gary's story on this board I couldn't find any other mention of it. Is anyoine else aware of other cases reported on forums somewhere?

Yes, Golf TDI oil pump failure same as Gary's back in March, 9 grand later and after Hughs comment on his mates DSG may think of updating soon. cheers Steve.

I had the mechatronic unit fail in my passat TDI after 2 years. it was replaced under warranty. Do love it though its an awesome gearbox... C

Love the golf to Chris great DD and its just one of those things, not sure what to go for next as a DD. Cheers.

The best corollary to this story is the BMW Nikasil problem. This affected the M52 and M60 engines. The M52 were the inline six fitted to the E36, E34 and E39 models, and the M60 was the V8 fitted to the E34. Owners used lower-quality high-sulphur fuel in their engines, which created a chemical reaction with the Nikasil coating used to line the bores on the alloy blocks. Once the Nikasil coating wore away, the pistons ate away the soft alloy very quickly. You ended up with a smoky, underpowered engine with virtually no compression. The failures occured on many BMWs out of warranty, and the initial BMW response was 'not our problem'. But they did come around and many blocks were replaced under goodwill. BMW originally ignored the problem (it first showed up in the M60 engines in the USA) because they couldn't work out what was wrong. Eventually all the engines were redesigned, and I believe the lawsuit-obssessed USA got granted an extended mileage warranty for the original purchaser. But if you bought a high-miler 6 year old, you're on your own. The response sounds very similar to Porsche with the 996 engine failures (initial denial, warranty fixes, some goodwill but ultimately it ends with time, mileage + owners). However. In the BMW case once you got the block replaced, they used Alusil instaed of Nikasil, and the problem never recurred. But if you bought a used BMW with one of these engines, you had no way of knowing how much low quality fuel went through the engine, and how close to death the bores were. You could do a compression test and then only ever put in high quality fuel, but death could just be around the corner. As a result the prices of the affected cars fell through the floor. I didn't ever hear of this occuring in Australia, it was mainly restricted to the UK/Ireland and the USA, presumably because of imported fuels or something. This type of things occurs in the motor industry all the time. Ironically it affects all owners as the market price of the cars tends to drop down to the point where a replacement engine is factored into the purchase price, so even if your engine is unaffected, you still get whacked with excessive depreciation. Sucks but there it is. It's hard to make high quality cars these days with cost pressures. If you want an overengineered car, something german from the 70s or 80s will fit the bill. Everything from an S Class Benz to 3.2 Carrera to an E30 M3 : truly a golden age of high quality German cars.

There's heaps of other examples too. Apart from VW/Audi DSG failures, early Cayennes with Lokasil liners also have been known for the Lokasil to flake off and lunch the whole motor (Turbo and Diesel cayennes had Nikasil liners and are ok tho). BMW also had fuel pump problems with the 3.5 twin turbo (also a class action in the USA), and staying within Porsche, 968s have an IMS-esque concern over the variocam system which can eat the motor, too. And if you want to really get a shock, google "Kia Carnival Engine Failure" (something like 50% failure rate of the original-shape Rover sourced V6s)

I just read a bit about the Kia. Sobering reading, that. At least with a Porsche it is still worth something even with a dead engine. A Kia with a dead engine is negative value because you'd have to pay someone to get rid of it.

Did Kia actually buy Rover engines expecting them to be reliable? You guys are kidding.......aren't you?

Apparently ROW got other engines, but aust market got ex rover engines. Kia replaced many user warranty (short block only) but walked away from the rest. Official failure rate was 40% Given the target market for a budget people mover was families without a lot of cash, it must have caused a lot of pain, particularly for used buyers out of warranty. Ouch, just ouch.

The Kia thing was a terrible situation, they would replace blown motors with (equally failure prone) crate motors, but once the warranty was up, you were on your own. Apparently some ppl were on their 3rd motor before walking away from the PoS Many Kia head office staff quit in disgust at how it was all handled.

>Apparently some ppl were on their 3rd motor before walking away from the PoS Wow. If that happened to me, and I knew they just replaced it with the same type, I would have walked away. But I suppose the resale values were in th toilet by then, so you're stuck. Doing your research on a car really is the only way. I guess that's why so many people come to me for advice - there is so much BS out there spoken by salesman it really is impossible to trust anyone if you have no clue about cars.

Just before I bought my 911 I almost bought a RX8. I know no comparison however I love my rotaries and thought it would be a better option with kids. Anyway did some research on the engines and was horrified to read the new 13B's pretty much pack up at 100 thousand km. Pages and pages of failing engines on line... Disappointing as you can still buy a Series 2 Rx7 with 250,000 km running well on original 13B motors. Progress?

>Disappointing as you can still buy a Series 2 Rx7 with 250,000 km running well on original 13B motors. Nitpick : s2 rx7 ran a 12a from the factory. First 13b in a rx7 was the series 4' both in atmo and turbo versions.

You are correct there - apologies however you get my drift. Apparently the oil allowed in the US due to some EPA related ruling is detrimental to the engines in new RX8s ....blah blah this is a Porsche forum so will get back on track.

Just read another article about some more M96 M97 woes which may not be immediately apparent. Piston damage and scoring. Porsche really did drop the ball on this one didn't they?

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That huge 12 page article? Yes, quite eye opening isn't it? But IMHO, you never buy the "version 1.0" of anything that Porsche does. If you look at the history of most Porsche models, the early versions of every generation usually has some sort of achilles heel, be it the snapping head studs in 2.7s, the cam chain tensioner in 3.0s, the Variocam in 944S and 968, early 964 oil leaks and dual mass flywheel, 993 SAI, early Cayenne lokasil bores...the list goes on and on. Porsche usually upgrades and modifies things as they go along, and they did try to do this with the 996 motor, it's just that the 2001 IMS bearing update didn't quite knock the issue on the head. Personally, if I were to buy a 991, I'd wait until the 2014 update

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Well for the record my car was the 3.6L 2002 "update" I thought exactly the same thing, didn't help much... I'm sorry, catastrophic engine failure at 60,000 km in a car worth well over $200k with full service history by a marque that portrays itself as the pinnacle of automotive sports car development is simply wrong. You can put any spin you like on it. How ironic is it that you guys are mentioning KIA on a Porsche forum as some sort of comparison. I am attempting to keep philosophical about it, the car isn't even back together yet, when it is, and the dust has settled I will post on here exactly what has happened, what it cost, and what's been done to try and minimise the chance of it happening again. Very very disappointed, again I say, its not that it happened, its that Porsche know about these problems and choose to do nothing about it.

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It is definitely a disappointing experience indeed. Its a shame the dealer you bought it from didnt offer an extended warranty? who is doing your repair work? Buik's I hope? I will be interested to read of the progress and how much it cost.....I hope you don't get put off Porsche as a whole as they have brought us far more good than bad.....in particular before Ferry Porsche died......however I can understand your anger!

I'm very sorry to hear about your experiences Whip It. I totally understand your bitter disappointment and frustration. I just wanted to wish you all the best and I hope you can come out of this and enjoy your 911 again or enjoy whatever you step into next. This is really shitty...

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YES which was why I only bought the 6spd manual AND made sure I could extend the warranty on my GTI. Pity I haven't had the same line of thinking with my latest car grrrrr

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Yea Marks doing the work, I bought it privately from NSW, full service history, spoke to the dealer at length, 16k on the clock, literally was show room condition. probably doesn't come across like it but I truly am trying to remain philosophical about it all.

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Whipit, I'm interested to know how old the car was you got it? With 16k on it? How many K's per year were previously done? The reason i ask, is that in the research I have done on these cars for my own purchase, I was told and read, that there was a lot better chance of avoiding an IMS failure if the car had done more km's due to fact of the bearing not being starved for oil? I had read that the design was such that it relied on oil splashing around for lubrication. Cars that had sat for long periods, and not occasionally driven vigorously, were susceptible to lack of lubrication to the bearing and hence a bigger chance of a failure? Anyone else heard this one? Tim

The IMS bearing is like a sealed wheel bearing, in that there is grease inside, with a plastic seal to prevent it from leakin out. I'm not sure what the specific reason is, but low km cars are def. more susceptible to problems. It could be because the balls in the bearing will "brinnell" dimples in the bearing housing if it sits for too long, or maybe the bearing grease dries up or something. It's also possible that cars that do a lot of kms wear out the plastic seal, and so this allows engine oil to get into the bearing. Also the timing chain gives the IMS more even loading at high revs than low, so it could also be that owners that do low kms also baby their cars at low revs all the time. But yes, whatever the reason it seems that cars which do taxi mileages and are flogged hard and put away wet never seem to have any problems

Has anyone got a cutaway technical diagram of a 996 engine? I see a lot of talk about IMS bearings but I must confess I don't know what it is, where it is or what an intermediate shaft does.

Can I please note : MY CAR DID NOT HAVE AN IMS FAILURE read post 87 At the time I thought it had as I thought this was the only known shortcoming of these cars, how wrong I was. The oil pump seized , which then snapped the timing chain, which in turn damages the teeth of the sprocket on the end of the IMS shaft, which requires total engine disassembly to replace, and of course bent the valves on that bank to boot. It has cost me $15,000 to repair. I run a mechanical engineering business, I am sorry there is no way the balls in a bearing will brinel a hardened race simply whilst stationary. And Ten Degrees, I would not trust anything you have been told about what does or doesn't cause IMS failure unless its by an independent Porsche mechanic. I mean now supposedly driving too few kilometres can be a problem, so we are now searching for a car with mileage that is not too low, and not too high, which has been driven hard but not too hard, that's been serviced regularly but not too regularly. Maybe the 996 should be called the Goldilocks Porsche , not too hard, not too soft, it has to be juuuussst right.

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IMS means intermediate shaft (which for the record did not fail in Whipits car) It's a jack shaft that lives under & parallel to the crankshaft. It's driven by a chain off the crank, and the other end of the shaft drives the cam chains. This by itself is no biggie, the old air cooled motors have an IMS too, but the issue is that one end of the IMS is supported not by a conventional pressure fed oiled bearing (like the cams, crank or rods) but by what looks an awful lot like a wheel bearing. The bearing poos itself and that causes the haft to go out of whack, cams to go out of time, and pistons to hit valves. Big fat kaboom, accompanied by heaps of dead bits of IMS bearing coursing all over the engine like bits of sandpaper, so even the parts that don't go kaboom get munted. But it's not what happened I Whipits motor, that's the oil pump shaft failure

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I am glad Mark has done the work. there are some specialists in adelaide that would ruin your experience even further... You are holding up well, I'd be very dark about it.........have you thought about selling it?

Hey WhipIt.. I was wondering how your car was coming along? Are you going to keep it or sell it?

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I am guessing he might have it up for sale and keeping a low profile on here and does not not want to attract too much negative attention.

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Shame to sell considering how much he enjoyed it in the earlier stage of ownership. I was looking forward to the next episode in Porsche bashing!!!

Don't blame him really. Its a lot of wonga to spend on a car and for it to fail so dramatically. Sigh.

I agree and I really feel for him. You can't discount ones feelings.... I hope he bounces back and finds another awesome car that he loves.

Hello fellow Porsche devotees.  No I haven't gone away for good, to be very truthful I have the car back and have been enjoying driving it whilst trying not to think too much about the problems I have had.  All up, $15,703 to repair.  Anyway you cut it, that hurts. Now to be fair, some of that I didn't have to do.  If I were to be a #$% about it, I would have done the absolute minimum needed and then sold it off straight away and made it someone else's problem.  But the big problem for me is that I actually love the car.  It took me a long time to find it, it has lots of little bits and pieces (mainly aesthetic) which make it a little unique, and I think makes it one of the best looking cab's going around.  So instead I did the rings, bearings, both heads etc so its as good (hopefully better) than new. Yes some of the magic has gone, I have done a little over 1000k's since the rebuild, I have to Mark and his team have done a great job, it runs and drives perfectly.  But of course I still haven't given it its head yet, and am a bit nervous too after what's happened. As for "Porsche Bashing", well I really truly do think we have been deceived, at least with the 996.  In the end the Porsche is a great car, no doubt about it, but it really is just another mass produced car, albeit a nice one. I run an engineering business, and I have to say the whole design of the IMS, not just the bearing is poor.  I mean to make a shaft one piece, sandwiched between two halves of the crank case, that can not be removed for any reason without splitting the engine is just bloody dumb.  If I could be bothered I would design an after market replacement, no doubt someone will someday. (Porsche should). Well, I will sign off for now, the sun is shining, I think I may go for a nice cruise with the roof down, just a bit slower than I used too...

Glad you go tit back on the road Whipit. Some of the gloss may have worn off the car but it sounds like you are still enjoying your time with the car.

Hi Gary, Very glad you have the car back and are getting to love it again. I think we can all understand both your trepidation and also your joy at being able to enjoy it again. It's a lovely car from the pics I saw of it when you first got it. The fact that you went that extra mile with the rebuild will hopefully mean you have many years of enjoyment in front of you and I look forward to hearing all about it...... Enjoy it! Very best wishes Chris

Hi Gary, it was a bitter pill to swallow but it sounds like the underlying attraction to the car is still there. I hope that it wont be too long before your fully back to enjoying everything that the car has to offer and enjoying the fact that you have addressed the issues. All the best. Wayne

Great stuff. Good to see you are still in the brand and still smiling!!!!

Like the guys above me have said, great to see you still have the car.  Here's hoping you fall back in love and the confidence in the car comes back! Drive it like you stole it Whip It

Well, bit of an update, have done just over 2,000 k's since the rebuild.  Had Mark do an oil change for me just to be on the safe side.  Last night I took Amanda's advice and drove it like I stole it Well not really but I did open her up, have to say if anything its better than it was before.  Still haven't totally got my confidence back but I have become a little more philosophical about the whole affair. Anyhow, hard to be grumpy when your pulling 7,000 rpm in a 911 with the roof down ha ha.

That's a great post to read Gary. you just made my day. Enjoy it...... C

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+ 1

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Great news Whipit, welcome back.

Yay someone listened to me that is great news Whip It!

Gotta love the ol' Devo band. For those who want to avoid problems (more the IMS bearing than the oil pump meltdown of our unlucky colleague) "Try to detect it - It's not too late". Anyway it sounds like the man's whipping it good now , which IMO is the proper way to treat a 911. Have a great weekend!

Also really pleased to read this one Gary. Glad you still have a real sense of enjoyment when driving your car. We're with you 100% and hope you continue to enjoy it for a long time yet. Andy S

Therein lies the rub of car ownership Unless your car is certified collectable , there is simply no point in underusing it. Changing the oil regularly is the best thing you can do. Driving the p out of it is what it was engineered for. Bring on the redline, same goes for humans but that's another off topic topic , dear to my heart. Anyway my dear old 924 is called Goldlocks so you'll have to come up with another term!

Good on you Whipit. Glad to hear your perseverance is being rewarded.

Does Porsche specialist like Autohaus offer solutions that can prevent 996/997 IMS and RMS issues?

Autohaus have this 2002 996 with a 997 engine fitted by Porsche in 2010 This car would be free of all IMS woes right? http://www.autohaushamilton.com.au/porsches_for_sale.html This car is prob a real good buy? Thought I'd post it here in case someone was looking

@Vinnie Most (if not all) independent workshops in Australia can supply and fit the L&N Engineering IMS bearing update, which replaces the standard bearing with a ceramic bearing.  The ideal time to carry out the job is when the clutch is being replaced, as the bearing update job can then "piggy back" on the labour involved in separating engine and transmission to get at the clutch. Although RMS (rear main seal) issues seem to have become conflated with IMS problems, RMS issues are almost always annoying rather than catastrophic.  Most cars with a problem RMS drip the occasional drop of oil.  I know - not ideal in a premium German sports car, but not in the same league as IMS failure. @Amanda You've linked to all of the cars for sale at Autohaus Hamilton.  But to answer skate delicately around your question...the very first 997's have the same IMS bearing as the 996.  Later 997.1 cars (and their Boxster/Cayman equivalents) had a beefier bearing of similar design to the 996 engine, which seems to have cured the problem. And the direct injection engines used in 997.2 and 987.2 cars (2009 and on) don't have an IMS, and consequently don't have an IMS bearing.

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Yeh the link screwed up. My question had absolutely nothing to do with Autohaus Hamilton - I was merely curious and asking a generalised question after seeing a few 996s FS with 'new' engines in them. If anything I see Autohaus selling one and immediately rate the car high!

sounds like an worthy upgrade then, i've heard lots good thing about L&N and Hartech IMS solutions on the Total911 mag

I did the LN engineering IMS bearing in my car a few weeks after I bought it and never looked back. I would highly recommend it for peace of mind. If a prospective 996 buyer factors in the cost of an IMS bearing upgrade when purchasing a 996, the end result is a lot of car for pretty reasonable money and no concerns about all the IMS hype.

Same goes vinnie. Allow 2K for LN engineering ceramic IMS upgrade, new rear main seal at the same time. Advise by Justjames above is correct, most done when clutch is replace because all the work to get to clutch gives access to IMS bearing at the same time. I did mine without doing clutch, reason, my clutch had 5 years plas left in it due to amount of K's per annum driving and virtually no city driving so I didn't want to wait that long to replace IMS bearing. Cost me 2K with a minor service. Great mechanic, but in Melbourne so no good for you. Regards, Andy S

Check this out Ladies And Gentlemen http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/996-forum/745057-ims-class-action-suit-2001-2005-owners-win-update-mar-12-a.html

Wow............ the list of Vehicle numbers is interesting, so...they know which ones are going to possibly go bang???? I just checked my Vehicle No and it is not amongst those nor the date of manufacture. Although that may only apply to U.S. Models, be nice to know if they have a list for Other country models) Meaning I am assuming that mine probably wouldn't have gone "BANG" going by this supplied list. Shite that is going to open up a can of worms in the U.S. be interesting to see if other countries follow suit. Also notice they are not compensating anyone who has had remedial work done "just in case" Very very interesting....

It only applies to the USA from what I could gather.  I wonder if they simply know all the numbers of the cars in that age bracket listed. Anyhoo only 25% of the repair bill. Isn't much if you've  had to shell out for a new engine.  And really.  Porsche haven't admitted anything and nor are they really liable -  I got that from reading the thread. Not sure if I have come to the right or wrong conclusion there. For those that own these cars - just enjoy them, do the LN bearing and forget it. EDIT:  I must say, I do like the idea of a 996 Cab. Was sitting in a black one on Saturday when I looked at the 964. Lovely car.. roomy, love how the roof folds away invisible, almost usable back seats, and the bum on these cars looks fantastic!

how reliable is the LN upgrade? Could you buy an affected 996, do the upgrade and not worry about it again?

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Yes Tony, once it is done you shouldn't have any more possible problems with it. I have had my 986 Boxster done. That's not a 100% guarantee but I think it is a 99.9%. good value to get done. As you have probably read previously , you may not know if it is going to be effected by the breakdown or not, so really it's an insurance policy for peace of mind (and a possible expensive engine rebuild if it does go BANG)

What Niko said.

Thanks. Have read a bit about the upgrades. But good to hear from people who have had it done. Price wise, 996's seem a lot more reasonable compared to 993's. Keep thinking i would still prefer a manual and at 70k+ it would mean waiting a few years as far as a 993 goes.

I've done mine. Just add 2K to purchase price. Niko did his at Jocaro in Breaside and I did mine at Autoart Preston. Price within a couple of hundred of each other. My car is manual so my mechanic said it is a slightly quicker job than a tip so this was probably to main difference. Regards

I took this from the linked rent list thread The following paragraph was pulled from the documents posted in the link above which explains the core issue of the lawsuit. Basically, the single row design experienced failures of 4 to 10%, where the dual row design has "far less than 1%" "Discovery and investigation establishes that Porsche adopted a single row design for the IMS in 2001. The payment of warranty and goodwill claims of owners of Porsche vehicles with this design of the IMS (all Class Vehicles) spiked up to between 4% to 8% of all such Vehicles in the United States, and 4% to 10% of all Class Vehicles in California. Warranty claims for Porsche Boxster and 911 vehicles relating to IMS issues, which had different versions of the IMS, have uniformly involved claims of far less than 1 % of such vehicles. Indeed, to date, Porsche has spent over $20,000,000 reimbursing customers for the parts and labor necessary to repair vehicles experiencing engine damage or failure as a result of the defective IMS shaft. (This entails approximately 3,100 claims granted under warranty or good will.)" The suit requires that if you suffered a IMSB failure prior to the date of settlement agreement you will have 90 days to file your claim once the settlement agreement is finalized. It's the first time I have seen actual failure rates up to 8% for single row IMS bearings, and around 1% for double row bearings. If buying a 996 it would seem that you need to research which design your engine was fitted with in order to assess your risk factor. But think of it like this : out of 12 996s parked in a row, 1 of them is doomed to die, or has done already.

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Interesting poast, Coastr. The double row bearing was used for 1997-99 engines and some 2000-'01 engines The single row bearing was used for 2002-'05 engines and some 2000-'01 engines. In other words, the single row replaced the double row bearing during 2000-'01. For cars built during 2000-'01, the only way to ascertain which bearing design was used is to have a look-see.

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If you bought a 99' 996 with a double row bearing for example, is it still advisable to get the LN upgrade anyway?

If it were my car, I would do it without a second thought. FWIW, single row bearings outsell double row by a factor of 2:1, although that prolly just means more cars were built in the last half of M96 engine history. Stats nerd warning: It comes down to attitudes to risk. Statistically, you are achsly better off running the risk with a double row bearing if those percentages are accurate. A 1% failure rate means that a rational person should avoid the risk if the cost of aversion equals 1/100 of the cost of picking up the pieces. In truth, installing then LN Engineering bearing costs more than 1/100 of the cost of an engine rebuild. Like I said, if it were my car, I'd pay to have the IMS bearing upgrade done, and rest a lot easier.

I'm not a gambler. When I owned my first 996 (a 2002 model) I drove it for a year and the IMS thing always was in the back of my mind and it detracted from the ownership experience. When I sold it and bought the 99 model I replaced the IMS straight away and have never given IMS a worried thought ever since.  Whether you replace the IMS or not comes down to your risk tolerance and perhaps your intentions with respect to how long you'd hang onto the car. For me the 'satisfaction factor' has far far outweighed the $$ outlay to replace the IMS. That is one reason that I have no regrets even after I examined my bearing and found that it was in perfectly good condition and was going to remain so as it's grease filling had been replaced by engine oil by the time I got to it.

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Go drive them You should also drive a 986 Boxster S as well - quick car compared to the tip 993 you spoke of.  In some ways the 986 would be a great complement to your GTI. Just keep test driving till you find the one that sings to you

And here's the equivalent post in the 996 forum for anyone interested in the comments from 996 owners http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/996-forum/745057-ims-class-action-suit-2001-2005-owners-win-update-mar-12-a.html

Here is how to fix it....Sit back open a cool refresher and have a read.... http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/Porsche-996-997-Carrera/14-ENGINE-IMS_Bearing/14-ENGINE-IMS_Bearing.htm?utm_source=Partial+2012+Porsche+Cust&utm_campaign=0f44b10ab5-5_15_Partial_2012_Porsche_Cust5_14_2013&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_c698603abc-0f44b10ab5-66407861

Can easily be $15k if it goes, $2k to ensure it never will, bit of a no brainer really....

My 98 Carrera 2 suffered the IMS failure a few years back under a different owner, and the car came with a fairly hefty Porsche Centre Melbourne receipt for the replacement engine. A recent service at an Independent said that was no guarantee that this engine would not suffer the same from the same problem. Now I am baffled; would PCM replace an engine yet not fix the fault with the new one, or was the independent trying to make more work for himself (which I find hard to believe given the other things he said I did not have to do just yet)? Is there an easy way of telling whether the upgrade has been done without taking the car to someone for yet another opinion?

Erm fom all my research Broadsword, Porsche probably fitted which ever engine was current at the time. This means if this occurred in say 2003 for example, you could have the single row bearing in it. Have you contacted Porsche Aus and asked them or know what year the engine was replaced? Even with all the bloody research I did, I still managed to buy the car with the flimsiest bearing ie the single row IMS Bearing!! The double row bearings have a 1% failure rate - with some luck that's what you have. When you are due for a clutch, put the LN Bearing in and it'll be fine.

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The engine fitted by PCM would be with a standard Porsche bearing, hence subject to the same potential failure. You won't be able to tell if it has an aftermarket bearing from an external inspection.

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So PA's policy was to charge a significant sum for a new engine that did not even address the fault that caused the first one to fail? That is appalling. Interesting; when I had a PPI carried out, the car was on the hoist and they noted it had a new engine immediately and that I did not have to worry about the IMS issue.

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I feel your pain Broadsword Here's hoping you have absolutely nothing to be concerned about.

Hmmm, Found the receipt and the replacement engine was fitted in June 2009, but no reference in the itemised summary as to whether or not this included single row or double row bearing. By 2009 they should have known better though, surely? Could be an excuse for a visit to East Melbourne perhaps?

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if you read the class action thread they basically ignored the problem for ten years. In your case i would be assuming it has the potential to go.  Porsche have not issued a technical retrofit.

and based on the options available in 2009 it's probably time to change the bearing again anyway (based on the pelican kit that they suggest changing every clutch change)

and here's me resurrecting an old thread.... Is the later model 997, with the large single bearing, much better from the IMS bearing point of view? Pro: less likely to have issues Con: but you can't swap in the IMS Solution bearing system. It seems like the early 997's i.e. the small single bearing M96/97 are the most likely to break?

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Pffftttt! It's three weeks since the previous post. 'Round here we need at least a year for it to count as a resurrection. Yes it is. Con: You can't swap the bearing easily. Pro: You don't need to. Correct. The early 9x7 cars (Boxsters as well as Carreras) had M96 engines. On a related note, early 9x7 cars also used the brakes that were left over at the end of 9x6 production. For those early cars, the only way to check which brakes were used is to take a look.

Hi all, I have been doing Preventive Maintenance Optimisation studies for a rail company recently, and a big part of it has been on bearings. This has been quite interesting and can be applied to the IMS issue (Even though I realise this wasn't the cause of WhipIt's engine failure). A bearing operating within its load and speed tolerances if lubricated appropriately will effectively never wear out (ok, it will, but we're talking millions of hours). Things that cause bearings to fail are lack of lubrication, Impacts, Foreign particles, overspeed/overload, corrosion, and Electrical arcing (such as someone welding something and the bearing being in the electrical path back to ground). There's two things to note here. bearings DO NOT just suddenly fail.  They go noisy until they eventually disintegrate. the only failure modes listed above that can realistically apply to the Porsche is lack of lubrication (sealed bearings) and corrosion. What we have found with rail wagons is the primary cause of brunelling started out as corrosion.  Corrosion is caused by water ingress of course, and moisture can eventually find its way inside a bearing simply by age (thermal changes drawing in moisture out of the air past the seals). The primary cause of this turning into corrosion was wagons sitting around not being utilised.  That tiny bead of moisture will collect at the bottom and then cause pitting on the bearing running surface.  When it starts getting used again, that pit turns into brunelling. What this means for the poor old 996 is that low K cars that sit around not getting driven every day may be drawing in moisture into the IMS bearing and causing pitting on the bearing surface. This would explain why well used cars don't seem to be failing. It also means that with a stethoscope you should be able to listen and tell right away if the bearing is showing signs of failure.

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You are a strange man, Tassieman.

Very interesting info thanks Steamwolf. Makes me feel good about dropping $3500 on the IMS Solution. I have a car that hasn't been driven a lot and won't get driven a lot! So by removing the ball bearings from the equation and adding a externally lubricated replacement with no moving parts - surely this has addressed the root cause of this issue?? Is it possible that the original bearings P used were faulty or not lubricated correctly during installation? Also, driving with the revs under 2500RPM is that considered 'overload' ? Or are we talking red lining the engine during say downshift?

I'm not familiar with the specific bearing used (if someone has the make and part number I can look up the recommended life and load ratings) but I doubt it's undersized for the application.  It may simply be a bearing that had the wrong type of seal for the application, or that the environment it lives in is a bit too hostile for it (clutch dust/water pooling/heat rating of the seal material etc). "Overload" is where a bearing may be rated for a certain amount of force which is exceeded in application. A bearing rated to carry say 100nm of load at 20,000rpm can be considered to be overloaded if it's carrying 200nm of load and doing 20,000rpm (but may be fine at 200nm of load if it's only dpoing 10,000rpm). "Overspeed" is where the bearing is rated to run at a certain speed, with a certain load and again this is exceeded.  A bearing rated to carry say 100nm of load at 20,000rpm can be considered to be oversped if it's carrying 100nm of load and doing 40,000rpm (but may be fine at 40,000rpm if it's only carrying 50nm of load). It really depends on what sort of bearing it is, how it's rated by the OEM and the application it's used in. Would love to know the part number so i can have a dig around. Removing the roller bearing for a friction bearing should eliminate that problem for sure, as long as the friction bearing replacing it is lubricated appropriately and doesn't have any flaws in its use.  These sorts of bearings have been used in camshafts and bottom ends since Tassieman was a boy ( ) so I doubt it will ever be a problem again.

My 2 cents on this, 1) it's a sealed roller bearing ... but boy talk about a harsh environment, hot oil splashed onto the seals all the time, Hot and Cold repetitions, water getting sucked into the system etc. Gee I wonder how much of the grease is left in the bearing after a while. Didn't think those seals were rated for hot engine oil immersion. 2) during my surfing on the internet I've come across a statement that the original bearings were too thin in the shells and had porosity issues leading to engine oil washing away all the grease .... can't proof this of course, joins all the many internet theories. 3) load on the IMS .. it's the shaft that runs the oil pump and the cam chain .... really the loads come from the cams and from the oil pump. only right? Perhaps the CAM load on the bearings are higher when the RPM is low? all those CAM lobes slowly opening the valves? it'll be less force at speed right? Anyway it's an issue, and seems to be related to how often you drive the car so fitting an IMS solution seems to be a good way to go. Have to watch out when I look at low km cars. depends on how hot they get the engine when it's actually driven, short trips to the local shops and back will be the worse. sitting in the garage then going for a few hundred km drive on the weekends would be okay I am guessing. Get the oil nice and HOT, get the moisture out. On the good side it's driving cost of 997's down really quick .... so I can afford to get one and just include the cost of the IMS solution into the budget.

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You might be surprised to know that I am trained to use a real stethoscope as well. Mitral stenosis.

Interesting! Still wish I hadn't googled it tho

Thanks Steamwolf. It's all a bit over my head at the end of the day! I think I might have absorbed all I can at this point

Looks like the monkey on the right just had his bearing fail!

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Just to sort of add to this conversation, I wanted to find out if the retrofitted LN bearing I had done, was a single or double row bearing. I emailed across to LN ENGINEERING, with the serial number of the bearing fitted to my car. A disappointing answer from them was that they don't keep records of what model bearing the serial number relates to.   WTF? Why bother giving them a serial number then..... I can obviously ask JOCARO who fitted it, which I will next time I am there but wouldn't you think the people making the retrofit bearings would like to keep records of what they sell in case of any failures in future..

Niko, from what I have read I thought all the LN roller brearing retrofits were double row?

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they didn't warm the stethoscope before they put it on him!

There are many types, from single ceramics to triple row to the plain IMS solution.

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Hi Jim , no apparently as ORION says there were different types used, have to admit I only thought it was single and double row, to hear there are triple row also is a surprise to me.   There seems to be a fair bit of conjecture as well in regard to which replacement bearing is the better. I have given up, I replaced it and no matter which one is in it, I would hope it should never be a problem again.....If in the future it goes BANG then so be it.. This whole IMS thing is a real bummer, and lets the Porsche name down badly. In the future are we going to hear that the newest fix the IMS SOLUTION also has a flaw??? Can we look forward to the Solution for the IMS Solution It just goes on and on...

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Oh don't say that! So far my car has been in 3 days. The bearing is in. But the oil filter is turning a half turn more than it should. This means the hose fitting is sitting further away and the fittings no longer fit!! So they are trying to sort this out. All the other cars they fitted were 986s. So seems come thing is different on the 987. They have gone to LN Engineering for assistance. Sigh The single row bearing has the highest failure rate both with the OEM and even with the ceramic LN Engineering retrofit.

With that in mind I think I would lean towards the friction bearing retrofit, but as my car predates any of this I don't have a vested interest in it. I hope it all works out well for everyone! As mentioned, it drags the marque down quite a lot which is a real shame.

I'm still wondering what the Europeans are doing about this?  Are they installing the LN bearings / solutions or do they have an upgrade of their own?

Damn, Amanda I am feeling your pain.   You would think this sort of thing with the fit up would be sorted.   Wouldn't you????? Or even LM BEARING CO putting out a leaflet with the bearing telling you what else you need to do when replacing it for whichever models. Maybe I am asking too much, but it is their solution, just finish it off with a "what else will need to be done when fitting" guideline. Look forward to hearing that you have it back and all is good with the world....

I don't know Niko.... given they have no info on one of their own bearings via serial number, makes you wonder many things! Maybe I will just trade it on a air-cooled 911! Ugh!

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Not ugh at all

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I'm not giving up that easy!

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That just amazes me! They put a unique serial number on the bearing for a reason. Identification. And..........they are telling you they have no idea!! Hope they do a better job with their answer to Amanda's little issue.

triple bearing upgrade: " LN Engineering also offers a MY06-08 IMS Retrofit kit for the larger bearing found on model year 2006 through 2008 M97 engines, but engine disassembly is required for installation. LN Engineering also offers an IMS Upgrade service where you send in your intermediate shaft and it is upgraded to a triple row bearing (with exception of MY06-08)"

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Yeh I'm baffled by this too. So what does the serial number tell them then?  A manufacturer date so they can work out what batch it was made in?????  Absolutely ridiculous. Either they do know this information and can't be bothered looking it up or have some other reason for not disclosing it.  I don't understand this at all. Doesn't leave me with much faith. I just rang up to get a pay out figure on my finance I think this thread has me very spooked! EDIT - Also I just wanted to add that I feel for the mechanic doing the job, as they've clearly encounted something different to the 986 installs - makes me question the designer of the solution not the mechanics doing the install

I'd assume the serial number tells them date of manufacture for warranty claims and stock management/shelf life etc. (I don't think you're paying them to keep records of your engine repairs) at the end of the day you've got a fix in there that is much better than the original option, get it fixed and drive your car and stop worrying about it. I think these type of threads all over the internet hurt 996/997 and Boxster values quite a lot - there are a variety of fixes now and it's just another mistake Porsche made during manufacture (like nikasil linings, or expansion rates between magnesium/other metals or chain tensioners pre the 3.2 engine)

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Erm I think we are buying a product where the distributor/manufacturer SHOULD know what type of bearing relates to a particular serial number. Your comment about keeping records of engine repairs is a little short sighted IMHO.

why should they know that? are you paying them by the month to keep records of manufacture? sure, it'd be nice if they did and probably the right thing to do - but they don't have to

When these retrofits are performed, the service manual is stamped with the serial number of the bearing. Now why would that be done if theres no other corresponding information on that said serial number? We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.  I'm not alone in my thoughts on this either!

I know what your saying there Russ, but really a serial number should tell them what sort of bearing they have supplied, I would have thought.   I think as Amanda says it will give them batch numbers but ...anyway it is what it is.    I don't need them to keep records of my engine repairs I can do that.   How hard can it be....S/No so and so ....single row or double row......, I just think it is very ordinary. Amanda, I am sure yours will be great when its finished, and you have definitely done the right thing. Sorry if I have said anything there to spook you, certainly not intended or justified if I did. This IMS thing is like my beloved Bombers.....I just wish it would all go away...

I agree to a point Niko, that they should keep records and maybe they don't make a lot of them - but this data all has to go somewhere and someone has to pay to store it. They're probably a small company and only human at the end of the day - they may have forgotten to write down if they were dual/single row when they shipped them? does anyone have a real world figure of total production of the affected engines vs. cases where IMS failure was the culprit? The internet is great for sharing information, but it does also blow a lot of things out of proportion and Steamwulf had some great input on the thread - If I owned an engine susceptible to this I'd get the best replacement done and then drive it (and every service get the mechanic to put it on a hoist with a stethoscope and listen - as said earlier, bearings don't just fail - they make noise and other symptoms first)

Fair enough Russ, hear what your saying, but will remain a bit disappointed in LN ENGINEERING. There are figures out there and it is a minority of failures.  But it is a fact it can happen. Also agree the internet probably sends a lot of work to work shops around the world  and for putting the wind up some people (like me) Probably never happen but.....   anyway I am not getting another one done, what is is what is.   Still be driving it and loving it. Cheers mate.

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The estimates I've read multiple times now is 1% of double row bearings and 7-8% of single row bearings fail. There is also evidence of failures of LN Engineering retrofit bearing failure. Two in Australia of the single row bearings. I heard that from the horses mouth. Oh and Niko. No worries. The situation spooks me not individuals. I will feel better once I have a few thousand ks on my car.

LN themselves now admit to failures in their single row bearing replacement. As for record keeping of serial numbers, that's just standard manufacturing practice and disappointing that they don't keep records in this day and age.

Thanks Orion, you seem to have the finger on the pulse there.... Maybe they did check my serial number and didn't want to tell me I have a single bearing fitted......maybe....

Hopefully Jocaro know Niko. Do you have the original bearing? Ok my car is on track now. I'll be picking it up tomorrow

Unfortunately did not get the old one back, and yes hopefully they will let me know next time I am there. Great to hear your ready to enjoy the weekend in the roadster..with the roof down....(and heater on if needed)

Cheers Niko. I've asked for my bearing. I'll bring it along to one of our next car park meet ups so you can all look at it! And think up some use for this hunk of metal that effectively cost me $3500!

Do let us know how the bearing feels in the hand when you get it, it should spin freely, the seals should be intact, and it shouldn't have any rock or free play.

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You should get it cast in lucite and made into a gearshift knob

Wow, just wow http://www.total911.com/news/porsche-996997-ims-failure-video/

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That would be great, I'm sure we can find something useful to do with it. Re the IMS failure video, Carrera, might be just me, but I am having trouble getting that one to fire up. I will keep trying or look it up manually.  ...I have no doubt it will probably give some the odd nightmare...

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Even the video about the failure has failed , lol!

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That's actually a Charles Navarro video.  Really interesting. Here's the tube link.

And the IMS solution which I believe Amanda has had done.

Well I got the car back. God I love that car - it's sooo gorgeous! Oh yeh the bearing stuff, all good. Cars a bit smelly, probably got some oil etc to burn off on the outside from spillages etc. As you'd expect it drives and sounds the same. I need to keep an eye out for any oil drops under the car, but all us P owners do that anyways! There might be some adjustment required but the install will be checked out in Nov during the next service. Whilst I could have serviced the car now and early, I decided to leave it on purpose. The bearing is smaller than I imagined. I will get it and take a photo of it sitting on my hand. It looks fine but hey, you can't see much. Onwards and upwards!

There's a video I posted in another thread that shows the installation of the IMS Solution too. Here's my bearing... The shaft has a tiny amount of play in it which might be normal?

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Glad it's sorted Amanda, Enjoy your new found peace of mind

Thanks Kelly

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+1

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Guaranteed to eventually wear out and go into catastrophic failure.........Ask me how I know?

bwahahahaha I didn't even see that T-man! Funny! And I'm sure I had the toughest bearing cos it had THEO on it

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Now that's bloody funny, what a crack up.

Bloody $6 bearing that causes $20k of damage.

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Maybe  sump full of olive oil every third oil change would keep these little suckers healthy

Glad it all worked out Amanda. May you have many happy days of motoring ahead of you.

This may be the dumbest question, BUT, who is the manufacturer of the IMS original bearing? Porsche or a 3rd party supplier? What responsibility does the bearing manufacturer carry? Is the bearing not fit for purpose or the wrong application for this type of bearing? Just interested, we seem to know a lot about the failure but ultimately who is responsible when you drill down ( yes I know Porsche is but).

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Wash your mouth out with soap Amanda! Nary a drop,  and I don't bother looking. My wife would let me know first anyway. Women are like that.

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NOT made in Germany (look to the left) ...nuf said PS Happy carefree motoring Amanda

Hmmmm I see the word Poland on the seal black bit! So it's a Greek, German and Polsh hybrid bearing!

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I just tried googling this and found the thread below - seems a company called NSK http://986forum.com/forums/general-discussions/34109-how-get-porsche-replace-my-2005-987-porsche-engine-ims-bearing-failure-42023-mi-3.html

If you look at your pic Amanda you will see NSK on the top, well NS with the K hidden. I use those bearing in my work and they are normally fine, however I normally get mine from Japan, and I certainly don't use them in an engine. It would be interesting to pop the seal off and check the condition of the grease.

Well Orion the next time we all catch up for a car park meet, you are more than welcome to do that to it!

I'll love to Amanda.... but I need a car first

Oh dear. All this talk about failed bearings is making my head wobble and spin.

Hopefully the subject will die down now Barry

The bearing is an NSK 6204DU17 from what I can find: 62 = metric light 04 = bore size DU = single contact seal 17 ... don't know what 17 means. And: DU = Contact rubber seal, on one side only.  one side only? And operating temperatures: note 100°C limit on operating temperatures on that seal ..... Hmmm, can we say this is a weird bearing to be using in that application??

Hmmmm, would think that 100 degrees would be almost normal temperature in that part of the engine...

okay, help me out here, say I am looking at this car: http://www.carsales.com.au/all-cars/dealer/details.aspx?Cr=0&R=AGC-AD-14310168 And it's VIN is: WP0ZZZ99Z5S701374 I put that into the IMS porsche settlement website: http://www.imsporschesettlement.com/porsche-vin/ and I get: Summary:Model: Porsche 911 (997) Manufacture Year: 2005 Assembly Plant: Stuggart Last Five Digits: 01374 Conclusion:This is not a Class Vehicle. Does this mean this 997 has the larger updated IMS bearing? i.e. the class action is for the smaller IMS bearing that fails?

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Is it for U.S. (different VIN than R.O.W. cars) delivered vehicles only??? In other words will it only accept U.S. vin numbers....

no idea, but it spat out the right information when the VIn was put in, I am not sure the US cars have different VIN.

I thought ROW cars were WPOZZZ, and US cars were WPOCB, or something like that.(memory fading fast)

Good question orion. Well, I just put in my VIN and made a mistake on the third digit putting in a O for Oscar. It did not accept it and told me the third digit should be a zero.   So put that in and it came back with the right information and then said ...NOT A CLASS VEHICLE.... So I would say it recognises Aust or ROW cars.. Oh No...does that mean it was a waste of time and spondoolies getting mine done??????? I hadn't seen that site before....

or maybe it just says "too bad you are not American, Porsche is still laughing at you?"

By the way, NICE CAR!

Mine comes out as a class vehicle, however, when I look at the VIN list, I'm not on it.  Plus, it says that only cars up to 10 years old or 130,000 miles are accepted.  So I'm out by age.

AH, so it might be the ten year thing for me also.   Then your on your own...  That probably makes sense....

Niko if you aren't part of the settlement, that is more likely to mean you have the double row bearing also due to your cars age. My understanding was that the majority of cars in this action were all single row bearing cars. I might be wrong, but that was my understanding.

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Possibly means that. Only way to know 100% is to pull everything out and have a look. For this car, I think that means engine out! In order to get the single row bearing you would need to buy a very early built 997. For example my 987 with its flimsy bearing was built in November 2004.  My car was a Porsche Melbourne car - so I'd say it was probably used to show everyone the new Boxster 2.7l. Matt at Weltmeister said he was suprised my car had the serviceable bearing.  Weltmeister have a lot of experience with IMS failure. Might be worth your while popping in there and speaking to either Matt or Ben, they are both super helpful and know what they are talking about.  Matt does speak like a bit of a salesman at times, but that's what he also does, sells Porsches.

Yep, thanks A, Your probably right, still have to check what my replacement one is though when I speak with JOCARO. I really have given up worrying about it anymore.   What is and what I have is it.   Interesting subject though.

Thats it Niko.  It is what it is.  These cars are far too good to spend your time worrying about them.  Go in with an open mind, be educated on what you can do to prevent the known failure, do the preventive maintenance and just enjoy the car! That's what I'm doing!

well from this info .... I'll say that the cars younger than the class action would most likely be a larger single bearing, i.e. the final version of the IMS bearing, And I should get a PPI done to check it all out, then drive the car often, get the oil nice and hot, change the oil more frequently than the 2 years, and enjoy the car. There's just so many different stories on the internet about when they swapped from small single bearing to larger single bearing, it's confusing.

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That Lorbeks car looks awesome - get amongst it already

Along the lines of avagoyamug I thought I'd post this http://www.oz951.com/public/enginedrop.htm I wouldn't be intimidated, none of this is brain surgery (which isn't rocket science)

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Yeah, but is it rocket surgery?? Nice detailed write up and images from PFA member Kelly on that site.

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Young friend of mine has converted part of a locally decommissioned ("send it to the tip") brainlab http://www.brainlab.com/media-gallery/brainlab-stories into the brain/control arm of an 800kg , 40 yr old Czechoslovakian milling machine he bought from Newcastle. Mechanical engineers can work real magic.

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Havent been on here for a while, hi all Unfortunately the approach above is just not going to cut it.  If you have the earlier bearing it will fail, it wont matter how you drive it, how you look after it, its just a game of when, not if.  Seriously take some advice from someone $15k poorer, if you have one just book it in and get it changed or if you are thinking of buying one factor $2k into the price and do it immediately. Btw they are an awesome car, I still absolutely love driving mine (and yes Amanda I am giving it the welly now) but they just have some issues.  They are a mechanical machine after all, designed by humans..

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Pleased to hear you are enjoying the car again.  I think i can say that 'we all' really felt your pain when that happened. Pleased to hear that you are giving it the welly now! Whip it whip it!

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Whipit, your engine failure was due to the Oil Pump right? not the IMS bearing?

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Whilst I can completely understand your resentment at having had an engine failure I'm afraid that I can't sit here and accept your comments as being valid, the above statement is simply not true. Some engines will fail due to IMS but to suggest that they will all fail is being alarmist. (aside from the fact that every engine on the planet will fail eventually) I agree that  the risk with the 996 is higher than it ought to be within the expected life time of the engine and that is why I did change my IMS bearing at 100,000kms (on inspection it was perfectly fine). My other 996 had around 160,000kms on the clock and it was running like a champion when I sold it.

this is a good post on rennlist that summarises where what bearing is in what model 997: http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/10744472-post368.html

well the latest car I am looking at has the Engine number: M9605AT69665273 So according to the chart it has the larger bearing and that should be okay, i.e. failure rate under 1%. Do you guys agree?

I agree....mine is the same.

I would think your right there, but honestly I have just about given up trying to get a handle on this issue. It seems to change over time. With different info from different sources. I think your definitely on the good side of the problem though. I,d be seriously looking at the car and block out the IMS issue so as not to cloud your judgement. I think you would know most of us here would go for the PPI if you are thinking of going ahead but that won't help with the IMS issue. Good luck with it

What I need is IMS insurance! Lol

That is not such a bad idea, I am sure if insurance companies stirred up the rumour mill on the problem and then offered a policy specifically for that they would not only make money get plenty of worried clients and in reality rarely pay out on a claim. Depending on policy cost but they would probably get me, especially before I did the retrofit.

The whole issue seems to me a bit like marrying a used (wo)man who owns an axe. You don't know if she is the one in the crowd who will go ape at you. The best insurance is to get rid of the axe, or sleep with one eye open Or (see air cooled forum)

[Image-only or quote-only post; no author-written text.] http://i1100.photobucket.com/albums/g417/niko986/desismileys_6600.gif

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What a crack up of a comparison... Or get a GT Mezger engined car.

LOL@ Tazzizum

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Disturbing analogy... But I like it!

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True words of wisdom...

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Next time I'm in Tassie for the Targa I'm coming around to your house, definately need to meet someone with this sense of humour, great stuff.

Fear not my friend for the axe , nor indeed large stump alluded to in a previous thread...The tazzieman hath no airs nor graces . just good brews

Just checked your website Tazzie, well done a lot of work gone into that, some good reading and info.

'Cept google is now losing pics on several of my sites , the buggers. More work for me. Here's some more stuff that's got nowt to do with cars but is all about the good life . Probably the Land Rover will get parked here. Which has no bearing on this hijacked thread.

Love your kettlebell site Tazzieman! I've been learning to use them at the strength & conditioning gym I go to. I say learn because there's so many exercise variations that there's always something new to master.

I had the IMS bearing replaced in my 996 last week. It's a May 2000 built Australian delivered Carrera 4 with 76,000km and a full Porsche service history (until last week). It was replaced with an LN kit. The car had a factory double rows IMS and it was in perfect condition. The rear main seal was "damp" but not leaking. Clutch was also replaced but probably had 10-20k left in it. Cheers Dave

Can i ask what it cost please and did you buy the tool as well or did your shop have it already. Feel free to PM if you'd rather not post it here. Just trying to get my head around doing this job if it is necessary. Thanks for any info Cheers Al

Check this out from PELICAN Al. Suggest you also probably get your self a cool refresher, sit down, and go back to the start of this thread.  Lots of good info and some good photos. You will hopefully come out of it at the end a bit wiser as to the problem and how to rectify it. I had mine done in the Coxster which is a tip, and it was around $2300.00 to have done. But oohhh how I sleep like a baby now. http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/Boxster_Tech/14-ENGINE-Intermediate_Shaft_Bearing/14-ENGINE-Intermediate_Shaft_Bearing.htm?utm_source=pelican_porschenewsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=20140416 Hope this helps to clear it up ...or completely confuse you. Bottom line....Cheap Insurance. Either do it yourself ..if you can...or bite the bullet and have it done.

Quozl have a look at this fantastic thread from one of our members Kelly.   Lots of interesting DIY work here including IMS. http://www.oz951.com/public/enginedrop.htm

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after that im concentrating on driving and my lack of skill in carpentry, my poor head is spinning

Yesterday I dropped into T & D Automotive in Brisbane to ask a couple of questions relating to maintenance on my 2003 996 C2. I asked about getting the IMS done.  I was told that the new best option is a DOF (direct oil fed) like this http://shop.tunersmotorsports.com/?product=direct-oil-feed-dof-97-05-early-style Was basically told not to worry about just replacing the bearing because it can still fail?  Which I guess is true, but the chances dramatically reduced.    Any thoughts on the DOF?

First I've heard about the Tuners Motorsport DOF but it's only new.  Worth researching further. I've been considering this alternative http://theimssolution.com/ which is the same principle but removes the bearing and has no moving parts.

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Actually, that was probably the one they were talking about. They did mention that there was a bush, rather than a bearing. Any idea on the price?

No idea on price but I was planning to get to T&D later this year for a quote and to see what they think.  You've done half that for me .   I've have a sense it could be anywhere between $2300 and $3500 depending on whether you want to replace other parts (clutch, etc) whilst the transmission is out. Looking at getting it done in Jan 2015.

Looking at the DOF direct oil feed system you could simply fit it and leave the original bearing in place. Choices...hmmm

I am thinking any replacement is a good replacement, which ever way, it should be done if you want to sleep at night. Just a matter of how much you want to pay, and the current replacements are "probably" getting better than the previous replacements but only time will tell.. Good luck with it..

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I'm going back in the next month or so for a service, so will find out more then.  Will keep you posted.

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Don't think so since the old bearing can disintegrate and put bits of metal and plastic all through the engine

So, my new to me 996 is currently in for the IMS upgrade and I just got told Im very very lucky. The bearing is in the worst shape they've ever seen and could have let go at any time. Bloody Hell! Here's me thinking the odds of it letting go in 1 week of ownership are tiny. $2,000 just saved me a new motor and my marriage! I'm off to buy a lottery ticket... or is that all my luck already used up??? I'll post some pics when I get some.

^^schizen^^ you are lucky.

Well dodged Simon ; no doubt your experience will send a few shivers through the guys who haven't done the fix. As you say , you've avoided an expensive spanner in the works. Now you can go and drive the wheels off it! Was the car babied in a previous life?

Well done Simon, you have definitely dodged the bullet. You can sleep peacefully now. Always said .....it probably won't happen to you....but..........for those still "thinking about doing it" Just do it... Cheap insurance policy.

I think the car has been babied so it was a prime candidate. I said that to the mechanic this morning and its been a weight on my shoulders this last week. It's only done about 7,000kms in the last 18 months. Previous owner is pretty thankful.

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What kit are they using Simon?

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Pretty sure it's the LN Engineering bearing. One of the Jocaro customers here could confirm.

Cool thanks.

Wow very lucky

Glad you got that sucker out just in time. Well done Simon. Looking forward to the pics.

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JOCARO done mine and unless they have changed their ways, that,s what it will be. They did a great job, very happy.

Is it a single or double row bearing?

So this is what these troublesome buggers look like moments before destruction. Obviously I can't show you how much movement it has but you can see the metal shavings which have come from the self destructing bearings. This is a double row bearing. Engine has been flushed twice to make sure none of this junk is flying around in there. Very grateful for my decision and now looking forward to some stress free motoring. IMG_2533 by Simonk76 , on Flickr

Good job!

I was in at my mechanic this morning and saw a bearing exactly as you described being pulled out of a Boxster with a heap of play and the oil sump plug covered in filings and bearing material made me think of this thread

Replaced mine this week as well as the Clutch ( after 134,000 k's ) it was in perfect condition but after just buying the car there was no question not to replace it

Ouch! That looks nasty. You'd know for sure that was money well spent!

A very interesting post in 6speedonline (from a US Porsche Service agent) that I thought I'd repost just to clarify my personal position: ------------------------------------ "The load capacity between the early dual row bearing on the up to 05 cars and the later larger single row bearing are the same. And as I said, a failure is extremely rare. Supposedly the larger single row bearing may have an even lower than 1% failure rate but there's no accurate data on this that I've found. Occasionally I come across a person online who says they've had one fail but personally I've never met someone with a late 05-08 that had an IMS failure. The overwhelming majority of IMS failures come from the smaller single row bearing in the early engines but even those are relatively rare. If you have one, simply replace it as a maintenance item and there's really no need to worry about it. I havn't seen a 997 3.6 with an IMS failiure. I actually havn't seen any documented 07-08's either. 05-06 3.8's IMS failures have been very well documents in multiple forums." --------------------------------------------- Bout sums up my level of concern. Ah-men

Lots of different little surveys on these pesky things.... Porsche recently paying out on a group action, so no doubt the problem is there...and recognised. Think it boils down to what my Superannuation Representative said to me when I pulled the pin some 7 years ago.... He gave me certain choices, each choice reflected on how I was going to sleep at night....... The choice I made with my super reflects on the choice I made with my IMS. I sleep good....

If I had left mine and it went bang in 3 or 4 years time, I could probably have dealt with it knowing that I probably won't have suffered as much depreciation on the car as if I'd bought another HSV. But I couldn't risk it going in the first year or two as it would have caused some hurt. A $40k car would have turned into a $70k car and really wouldn't have gone down well. In the end it proved to be the right decision to replace it and I'm very thankful. I understand why many don't bother doing it though. There are so many European cars that  have inherent problems that can be catastrophic and we all run the gauntlet hoping it doesn't happen to us. The IMS isn't the only thing that can go wrong with these engines. So while I've sorted the IMS, it's not going to prevent scored cylinders or the problem Whipit had. Pick a BMW you like and google problems they have. You'll be avoiding any V8 model and the M3 with vanos. Steer clear of an E55 AMG unless you're happy to take out a second mortgage to run it. Even the BMW 320 diesel engine is junk according to the internet. Our Cayenne is a ticking time bomb apparently also with scored cylinders being a potential failure.

I'm happy to wear the supposedly <= 1% risk on my 3.8 '07. If it goes bang so be it. I'm not sure I could live with a 7% risk in the badly affected cars though, I think I'd have to get the IMS done in that case. My bigger fear with Euro cars is the dual clutch gearbox letting go. It is supposedly a $22k replacement in a Q5 for example - yikes! Supposedly can't currently be repaired. Give me the 8 speeder ZF any day, it is perfect in the m235i.

Mine is a Sep 2005 build.... so I am not changing the IMS..... I think it's the later build with the larger single row bearing. Yeah touch wood.

When I got my IMS done there was no sign of metal filings in the shaft or any suggestion of the bearings starting to go. I was getting my engine dropped out as my AOS had given up on life so it was the perfect time to drop in the LN retrofit kit. That was at 87,000km on a late 2001 MY02 3.6.

Here is another good article from LN engineering.... http://imsretrofit.com/ims-101/ This article contradicts alot of the other posts I've read about ims failure. In particular it states that the early 996's from 1997-199 are among the most reliable in terms of ims failure. As posted previously they have a less than 1% failure rate. I just had my clutch changed and elected to leave the bearing insitu. I can sleep soundly with those numbers :-D Cheers, Greg

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I've read that as well. I once saw some statistics which showed gen 2 was the worst when comparing production and failure numbers. Again, just get the kit put in when the engine is out.

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It is an interesting article Greg and well written and explained. As you say it does contradict other articles/posts on the problem.   Which particular post/article do you believe? The thing that keeps coming back to me is that there is no 100% established reason for the bloody thing to go bang. Lots of theories as to why it may go bang ...but which one.... Going by that article you will be "pretty safe" with your decision of not getting one fitted. I am certainly not knocking your decision. I would however still recommend that anyone else going having a clutch swap or engine out repair that they should definitely get it done. After market P workshops are probably rubbing their hands together with all the nasty stories true or false re the IMS. One other little point, is that if anyone is in the market for one of the designated problem models , and.... they have done their research They would be asking if the IMS has been done. Might end up costing you a couple of grand drop in the price at re sale time, whereas if you had it done earlier it wouldn't be a factor.

I agree Niko. Potential buyers read alot online nowadays, and will be asking about IMS etc. It was just so relieving to finally read something positive about the early 996's. Hopefully more articles like these appear over time and slowly reduce peoples fears about them. I know I've felt nothing but guilt and fear after buying my 996. Now finally I have something to smile about :-D Cheers, Greg

This is well meaning but doesn't fit well with human psychology, which in the majority of places will pay more to avoid a potential failure than they will pay for a potential gain.    Probably self insurance of putting away $3000/yr into a special account is the best way - if it fails you get your new engine.  If it runs fine and then you sell it, you've got more cash to spend on your next car.  But most people don't have the ability to run a scheme like this. However, internet hypocardria is a very real phenomena because almost zero people post into forums and say things like 'just completed another 15,000 trouble-free KMs on my 996.  In the old days you only heard about an engine failure if you happened to be chatting to someone who experienced it first hand or fixed many engines.    Those days didn't come with high-res pictures of shredded bearings (and broken head-studs!) to give owners nightmares, either. Still...the idea of a nice 996 still appeals to me at some point.  Perhaps I will test-drive one, one day, just to see how much less hair-shirt they are compared to an older air-cooled car.

My 996 wss truble free for 66km and 10 years before I got it. And now I'v had it for 2 years and 15km and no problems at all. What I changed thus far are normal service items. I did change the IMS and found all the grease in the baring was out. But thats good for a ten year old baring don't you think? I will open up the engin again and inspect the IMS when it is a year old and have done over 10km.

Hey AM I've pm'ed you about the details of your IMS change. thanks

Hey IAM. Sounds like you did the IMS job yourself ? Big job to re check the grease isn't it? That means you have to lock all the cams , drop the transmissions etc? Greg.

Hello Gregk, Yes, did it my slef. And yes, was a reasonably big job. In the process of writing a thread about the experience. The triger was the start of RMS leaking. Its was a case of "while i'm there". In 2013 I changed so many plasticy rubbery bits on the car. I guess the engineering rule of 10 year life span was poking its ugly head.

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I am starting to think I am the only person critical of anything LN engineering publish for the obvious reasons. All claims and numbers I came accross I was able to trace it back to LN engineering. LN never realy say where and how he cames up with these numbers and how statisticaly representative is his sample size. I saw a table on LN website with numbers of total sales and total IMS failure in each year for the past 10 yeats. After some time checking, I can comfortably say the table was an LN concoction. Yes IMS appears to be a real problem. But what dose a 1% or 10% failure rate means? And what happens to the same rate when the baring ages? Wouldn't the rate rise and approaches 100% as time goes by? Food for thoughts,

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The 10-year plastic lifespan is one of the biggest drawbacks of cars of the modern era.  I just went through the process of replacing all the windscreen washer plumbing on two BMWs - both failed almost 10 years to the day from date of manufacture - just gone brittle and hard with age.   Replumbing this is a nightmare as it snakes its way from underneath the guard, into the engine bay, under a bunch of seals and then up under the bonnet (more seals) and finally pointing at the driver. Then there is the door sill covers...and the windscreen trim surrounds...and parts of the engine trim.  All on garaged, well serviced, relatively low mileage cars.  But the plastic hits an age mark and crumbles away. Before that it was a VW Golf where all the gearshift linkages were plastic where the shift rods joined the gearbox.  10 years almost to the month since manufacture and they all self destructed one by one, leaving the car *always* in a compromised position either stuck in gear or stuck in neutral with a dead shift.   And the Golf also had multiple failures of the window regulators, also made of plastic, also dead after 10 years. I'm starting to hanker after one of those 'classic not plastic' window stickers :-(

Looking forward to the post on the IMS change IAM. Funny, I got given a 15yo IMS from my local porsche specialist from a car with 300k's on the clock and it looked like new. No sign of the plastic degrading. My mechanic also said he is yet to see an IMS failure in 16 years of buisness from his workshop, although he has seen the aftermath from other Sydney shops. Greg.

OK, does anybody have a scanned or electronic version of issue 69 of Total 911, as referred to right at the start of this thread?  Looks as though the only digital version of this is available on iTunes, but I don;t do the Apple thing at all. thanks Peter

Every time someone mentions ims failure rate I mention cancer. You have a higher chance of getting cancer than ims failure. There are 2 types of Porsche owners, the rich and the DIY and the Porsche haters could never afford a Porsche so they keep bashing. No wonder every car companies compare their model to Porsches. The most wins at the 24 hour LeMans followed by Audi. I just hit 88000 miles on my 2002 996 with original clutch and ims. Did a oil filter analysis and found zero metal shaving.