Porsche and Tivs - Page 5 - Porsche General - PistonHeads UK

I drove a 993 C2 once, and I must say it'll feel very slow compared to the griff. I tried it after my Elise and it did'nt feel any quicker (at legal speeds), obviously it's a lot quicker +80. Great for everyday usuability though - v. pratical.

FWIW I have driven a Griff 4.0 and a 964 C2, which isn't a million miles away from the 993. Performance: Okay, it was a weedy Griff, but for my money the C2 felt just as quick. You have a ton of traction off the line cos of the weight over the rear wheels, and the engine is a bit more cammy, with more top end in the C2. This means it gathers pace more gently below 3000 and then screams to the red line. The 4.0 rover wasn't as rev hungry. That said the Tiv sounded gorgeous, but the chainsaw burble of a 911 isn't too bad either. Handling: The Griff felt more 'go-kart' like - more like a Caterham perhaps, and the C2 felt a bit more planted. Both felt they would be quite nervous on the limit, but the 964 had optional sports suspension so I dunno how that changes the comparison. Accommodation/Build: The C2 is much, much better built. End of story. The interior is less curvaceous though, and old fashioned. The pedals are strange too! Porker fans call it character - when you have a rev counter the size of a dinner plate bang in front of you, it is hard to disagree... And of course, you also get 2 small seats in the back of the porsche. Running costs: Both can be serviced at specialist independents if needed. Dunno how the prices compare parts-wise, but Porsche can be v expensive if you go thru a main dealer. Plenty of breakers around for second hand parts tho', and Germand and Swedish can help for factor bits. I am thinking of a 964 RS myself, as these have a more Tiv-like go-kart character, or even a 964 turbo, as these are pretty rapid. I would also condsider a 993 C2 as these have a few small improvements over the 964 and look more modern - probably the best air cooled porsche you'll get. If you want Tuscan performance, buy a 993 Twin Turbo (Turbo 4) as these will do 0-60 in 3.8 secs and 0-100 in 9.2. With four wheel drive they would be easy to hustle across country, too. They can be expensive to run, and entry is approx 30k LHD, 45k RHD. Rgds Dom

The 993 C4s i drove a few weeks ago didn't feel anywhere near as quick as my Esprit V8-GT, but on the other hand, it did feel absolutely glued round corners, and didn't have any of the rattles, bangs and crunching noises you get when you hit a pothole hard in the esprit. Depends what you're after. The 993 won't be as exhillerating to drive, but as a car you could live with every day, driving in good and bad weather, its a pretty fine machine. This is reflected in the prices people are still willing to pay for 5/6 yr old cars. Rob.

Yeah, i have to echo that. Porkers are great cars to live with every day. If you want something special for the weekend, then I'm not too sure. Saying that I love my 993 Turbo. I've not own a TVR but have been a avid follower of this site for years so I get a good impression of the running cost. If you go to a specialist the parts and labour are in fact quite resonable. I'd say its a lot cheaper than running a TVR, as long as its not a dog. And the build quality is very high. Engines will quite happy do 150,000 before a rebuild. I'm not in the position to have 2 cars, but if I did then I would love to have a tuscan for the weekend and a porker for everyday use.

I have driven both (Griff 500 and 993 C2). The 993 is the perfect everyday car, it's a bit more refined, controls are also a bit lighter. And you get very good steering feedback. Build quality is super solid too. 911's also have interesting handling. A very fine car IMO. What it lacks compered to a TVR is the brutish acceleration, the first time I tried a 993, I was wondering what the whole supercar thing was all about (it was the first fast car I had driven). It also lacks the excitement a TVR brings you

Oh I don't know. Try a white-knuckle ride round Thruxton in a Porsche Boxster - they *can* be exciting. More on this later...

I test drove a C2 (tiptronic and manual), a C4 and a Boxter S both on the road and at Bedford Autodrome before plumping for the Griff 500. OK, so the Griff isn't as practical, or as useful, or as reliable, or as sensible. But none of the Porsches had 'soul'. They sounded like sewing machines by comparison (admittedly, very, very angry sewing machines). Incidentally, the DB7 Vantage didn't fit a 6'4" frame - no headroom, where the Griff seems positively spacious. Ferrari 360 - same problem, designed by Italians for Italian sized/shaped people.

What exactly is this "soul" feature and where exactly do I find it. I've checked all through my Chim and haven't found it. Is it behind the ECU or something? If my Porsche hasn't got one then can I get it fitted after-market? Edited by Don on Friday 12th October 16:15

No, Don, I don't think it's an after-market fitting.....maybe it's the bit at the base of your right shoe that has a hole in it ! Anyone here without a hole in their right shoe please resign immediately; you aren't trying nearly hard enough... Seriously though the average Tiv is a much quicker car 'off the mark' than the average Porsche, although from what I've read the new Turbo would be hard to beat. It all depends what you want - the only problem is that I want them all! Took delivery of my new 996 today, and very, very impressed so far. Further reactions when I get to know it.

quote:- Oh I don't know. Try a white-knuckle ride round Thruxton in a Porsche Boxster - they *can* be exciting. More on this later... --------------------------------- I have driven a boxster round Thruxton. Aboslutely no soul or passion to it after my old chim 4.5. I am considering a 993 c2 and hope that it isnt like a boxster. Wouldnt recommend the white knuckle from the resident drivers at thruxton. Not all of them are up to much. One of the instructors there blocked me for half a lap - my instructor made me lift off.

An ex TVR salesman who now sells porsches described the "soul thing" to me: "In a Boxter, fun starts at 100mph. In a Griff, fun starts when you turn the key" Anyone who doesn'tunderstand this is probably better off with the Porsche.

Can we knock off the porker verse tiv thing all the time.? Lets not make this forum into one of those. Porkers and tivs are both great cars, aimed at different uses . Porkers are more of an everyday car and tivs are more of a weekend car, but obviously both exel in each others domains depending on the model etc.

Having owned a Cerbera Speed Six and now a 996 with full GT3 bits and pieces. My take is the TVR is faster in a straight line when the road is dry but the 996 would more than make up for it on the corners and in the wet (not slow in a straight line either) The TVR was back to Blackpool for 2 of the 4 mths that I owned it... The 996 starts every morning does not leak, rattle or blow fuses and covers miles like a Merc/BMW. Both sound great de-catted TVR with sports exhaust, Awesome....... 996 with Sports exhaust, loud enough but quiet when you want it to be. Both great cars but the TVR had to go as I ended up in my Vauxhall Omega more than the TVR, with the 996 I can use it as an every day car.

So you proove the point, you needed an everyday car and went for the Porsche. Shame you only kept the TVR for 4 months though.

TVRS AND PORCHES ARE CARS FROM TWO DIFFERENT CULTURES.

Yes, and I want one of each, please!

Me too ! I run a 993 C4. The comparison between the 993 and any TVR is not terribly valid, the TVR Griffith is a track day/blast in the countryside car with epic performance, a staggering exhaust note and great looks whereas my 993 has to perform roles arguably more suited to a Golf, but does them admirably. I couldn't use a TVR for my regular slogs from Derbys. to Scotland, get out and present to a sales conference. I'd get out hot and knackered whereas the Porker did just that effortlessly this morning with very little wind noise, excellent aircon and a secure, dry boot for my PC. Both cars can be total animals but the Porker will only really show its dark side on a racetrack, not on the way to Tesco! Both sides of the TVR/Porsche argument always seem blinkered to the merits of the opposite camp's cars, I can only suggest taking one out for a drive you might be surprised ?

I've got a Griff so just need to add a 993 then I'll be happy. But then I'd need a Cerbera too, and a Miura...

Whenever I go on a regular slog to Scotland from Staffs I take British Airways! Quicker than any car and a darn sight cheaper than taking a 993 or a Griff!

2xVideo projectors, laptop, screen - none of which I'd be happy putting in the baggage hold(£12k give or take, disregarding lost business if it got broken). Really I ought to have an estate - wonder if Peter would build me one ???! 993 and Tiv perhaps the answer for you GB but can I borrow the F1 when you've bought every other supercar and you're still not satisfied !

Wuss! Did a recent slog round south america, sixteen flights in two weeks, with laptop, projector, etc. Never in hold, always in cabin overhead bins. Drew the line at screen, hired em there. Why the second projector? I'd love to blast up to Scotland in my Griff, but driving back with the inevitable raging hangover would not be pleasant.

Charming ! It's more an issue of keeping the DLP projectors alive, don't think they'd take kindly to being bounced about by airline staff. 2xlaptops as well. Use them to demonstrate the relative speeds (and qualities) of two satellite video conferencing systems. Why were you in South America ? Or shouldn't I ask...

No offense intended! Give you a race to Scotland one day? You'll have to give me a headstart for usual TVR breakdowns, etc

You're on GB ! I'm usually heading for Edinburgh, I'll let you get to Dalkeith before I set off then shall I, lol

All comments would seem to point to the same conclusions, one for everyday and one for fun. I have to mention that there was life before the c2. My car is used everyday for work, and is constantly embarrasing Cerbera's & F355 etc.., and I even managed to keep up with a Diabolo until about 135mph. What car u ask ? A modified '87 911 Turbo (Turbo 2 G-Force body), with 400 bhp+. £25,000 of car which looks and runs as good as anything short of £150,000 !! There's your answer guys.

Yeah, the forum has a bit of a 'C2' angle to it, partly my fault as I am a firm believer in the improvements made throughout the 90s. But then I have driven an '84 3.2 against a '90 C2 and the difference is impressive. The 3.2 is a good car, but when you can get LHD C2s for almost ten grand these days, why look at an earlier Porsche if you can afford a later one? I must admit to loving the 'Turbo 1', and it is undeniably brilliant value. I do hanker after a Turbo 2 for the looks, though (completely subjective) and like you I would like it tuned (same engine basically, so should be easy enough). What did you have done engine wise on your Turbo 1? One bar boost spring at a guess, free flow exhaust, air filter... any more? Cheers Domster

Hey Everyone, speed here. I have a 93 RS America witch is now up to euro spec. With only 250 hp at the rear tires and fully gased weight of 2999lbs my car moves. I do track events and drive my car on the weekends. I brought the car with low miles and now it has 160,000 miles. I can tell you that a porsche is a well built car. The 964 series car is the last of the hand built cars. yes, the 993 and the 996 are larger and hold up very well under hard driving but, I would tell anybody to buy a 964. Like always, buy the best one you can. I haven't rebuilt the engine and all the checks show the engine doesn't need any work. I'm thinking of supercharging the engine but,I haven't decided yet. seeya, speedracer.

I didn't think the 993 was any larger than the 964 - it's based on the same bodyshape! Interior space is identical, and if anything, those curvy wings and sloping lights probably mean it displaces less water if you dropped it into a swimming pool ;-) There were a number of improvements made with the 993 over the 964, and it is wise not to forget that. It has some pretty fancy suspension at the back compared to even your RS! The 996 is (of course) a different animal entirely, and is vastly superior techically but maybe lacks a little character compared to the older 911s. You can chuck the Eaton supercharger on your C2 but I would be careful with reliability - 340 bhp is produced but I know of one that has grenaded.

Hey all, the 993 is bigger by 1-2 inches and thats when your checking from the top of the door panels. I'm only 5 foot 5 inches tall and I can touch both door panels from the drivers seat. With my friends 993 I have about 2 inches almost. As for the rear susp. Yes they changed it and the car is smoother in the way it rides but, I've done open road track days with plenty of people and they all admit that their is more fun in my car. The 964 has only five speeds and this causes more revs at all times but, its something you wouldn't notice unless you drove both cars back to back. The great thing about the 964 is that all the power is there and waiting to be set free. I know what my car has because I had a speed shop with a wheel dyno check it. I also have seen all the things that work and proved that some others don't. If you like to drive like me which means that I drive my car from New york to northern california every year at least once. I do weekend trips and road tracks. ALL my friends with turbos can't believe that my motor is doing as well as it does with the miles on it. 160,000 miles is something to think about when your buying a car to drive hard. Wtih the mods I've done,the car pulls to red line in fifth gear and its possible that the 7100 rpm fuel cutout is possible. that is fast for a stock engine and light weight car. the best thing is that it always startup and go when I ask. seeya, speed.

Speed - if 993 is bigger than 964 I stand corrected. The 964 RS is an awesome handler, you are right. The 993 had a few advances, but apart from the rear suspension and a bit more bhp these were more reliabilty based. It is also a bit more refined, I gather, but again this is not something everyone worries about. Out of interest, what are the mods you have done to your engine, if at all? Did the American RS have less power than the euro one? Cheers Domster

Hey domster, this is what I've done so far. 1. lightweight clutch and flyweel swap 2. I had a chip made for my combo that is based on the rs chips that were used for cup racing. 3. I removed the primary muffler and added a bypass instead. the final muffler remains in place. 4. engines with less than 300 hp, don't need the mass air flow sensor conversion.I use the flapper type. 5. K&N filter 6. stainless steal brake lines and my car comes with C4 brakes or 4 piston all way round stock. 7. short shift kit. 8. pagid brake pads {race pads} 9. H&R spings and bilstein shocks with a complete corner balance job done bye a race prep shop. 10. front stress bar 11. 17x8 front and 17x9 cup wheels in the back 12. stock sway bars 22mm front and 20 back. 13. I removed the engine cover when I brought the car for more engine cooling and everyone has told me that this is why I have gotten so much life out of the engine. It doesn't sound like much but, some money was spent but, lots of fun have been recieved. the dyno proved that I had 250hp at the wheels and I was told by my friends at andial {porsche motorsport north america } that you will lose between 10 to 12 percent from the crank hp. hope that helps, speed.

Hey Domster, my dyno readings on a 246C dynojet machine was 250 hp and 231ft/lbs and that is the corrected readings not the other ones. my car is rated with 247hp and 228 ft/lbs at the crank. All factory paperwork that I've read says that U.S. cars are rated with the accessories working {on}. Also the euro has even larger sway bars and even lighter than my car. my car has a 20 gallon fuel tank and the factory weight is 2954 lbs dry with options. { posi-trac,radio,air con,sun roof} I have them all. I have removed some weight and now with a full tank, my car weights 3002lbs. speed. ALSO no back seats.

Hey All, Anybody know of any porsches {911} that have a supercharger, I need details good and bad. speed.

Hi speed, Cheers for info. Interesting stuff. Re superchargers, you can get an Eaton supercharger that basically bolts straight on. Autofarm have an RS for sale at 40k without, 45k with. There is quite a nice picture of the supercharger fitted. Look at http://freespace.virgin.net/auto.farm/sales.html It is the red RS 964 you are looking for. Cost, as you can see, is around 5k GBP, 7k dollars. The Eaton conversion retains the standard pistons for cost and reliability, therefore it only produces minimal boost. But that is still enough to get about 340 bhp from a standard RS '260' bhp engine. However, I know of one RS with supercharger that has had its engine blow up, so ultimate reliability cannot be guaranteed. Cheers Domster

(Just posted same message on tvr board) Hi all, Am a tad depressed this morning as my mate has just beaten me to purchasing a 'proper' sports car - a cerbera 4.5. How annoying! He knew I was planning a similar purchase this forthcoming summer and stole my thunder. Now all I'm hearing are his new cars vital statistics. It's like top trumps over the phone: 0-60 in 3.9 and 190 mph etc. I now have about 5 months left before I can join him with a decent fast car - and need to decide on something equally as fast or I'll never hear the end of it. A little bit of friendly rivalry going on here! I too will be spending around +40k but need to decide: a. copy my mate and go for unbeatable dry weather performance in a cerbie 4.5 b. pick up a decent used 993 turbo for more money but hopefully save on servicing / repairs c. a little impractical - lotus exige with 260bhp supercharger d. mitsubishi evo7 extreme (1.9 bar turbo pressure) - the fastest car in the wet down our local windy country roads I'm sure! I guess I will test drive the above shortlist over the next few months and see which is the most fun around my usual area. At the end of the day it comes down to money - how much will be wasted in depreciation and servicing, repairs etc. The bills on a tvr might scare me.

Hi, Can't wait to see what the posts are like on the Tiv section - they will be different here. Anyway, the answer is obvious, as you don't want 'his n hers' cerbies, do you? - The 993 Twin Turbo - bosshogs is for sale at the moment in Polar Silver - beautiful. Give him an email (see for sale section). Reasons are as follows: a. copy my mate and go for unbeatable dry weather performance in a cerbie 4.5..... Look, people will gossip about you getting an identical car to him, and then you will spend a fortune 'outdoing' him with accessories, sound systems etc. And it's probably going to break down. If he nails your 993TT in the dry, you can at least have the last laugh when his Tiv is towed to the nearest dealer. The build integrity of the 993 will also make him weep, especially the electrics. b. pick up a decent used 993 turbo for more money but hopefully save on servicing / repairs... bang on my son. 0-60 in 3.9 (check Autocar!), 0-100 in 9.3, top whack of 186 mph. This is not much slower than a 4.5 is it? And you have better traction off the line thanks to 4WD. You'll also be quicker in the wet and around roundabouts. c. a little impractical - lotus exige with 260bhp supercharger... why bother? Supercharger will cost a fair bit and make the Exige even more unreliable. They are built okayish, but not Porschelike. Dodgy handling on limit, too. Also, you won't get any money for the supercharger come resale. d. mitsubishi evo7 extreme (1.9 bar turbo pressure) - the fastest car in the wet down our local windy country roads I'm sure!... indeed it will be, but the interior is like looking inside a dark, plasticky hole. Ugh. Would you want to spend much time there? They are quick, handle well, tons of grip, but lack a little involvement according to some. They also do about 3mpg and have a fuel tank the size of a hamster's house. Fine if you like service station forecourts. To put things in perspective, I have looked at these cars myself, to replace my Lotus Carlton, and the only one I keep coming back to is made in Stuttgart. All IMHO - check the TiV board for other opinions!!!! Rgds Domster

Cheers domster - v funny reply - I like the hampsters house fuel tank specs. My sensible side says just get a brand new evo extrame (40k) but my heart says 993tt / cerbie...

Roadrunner, consider whether you would be happy with a smallish dressed up, fast saloon car or whether you would prefer a 'real' sports car built by a company that only build sports cars.

Buy a Tuscan S and you would be with the Cerbera all the way and get a great deal more cred and exclusivity. Don't buy a Porsche when you can support English car manufacturers like TVR which are just as good and are much rarer. If you need 4 seats then you'll just have to put the kids in the boot of the Tuscan and forget the golf clubs that day, Rob

'Just as good' is a bit subjective there, Rob ;-) I like TVRs for their value - performance per pound they outdo any Porsche. And, yes, they have character. Yet for build integrity and reliability they are many miles apart, and that is where the extra weight and cost of a Porsche comes in. I'm all for supporting British companies, but this argument is a bit warped. If we all bought Austin Allegros in the 1970s 'to support British car manufacturing', we'd be driving some f***ed up seventh generation Allegro now, with an airbag in its square steering wheel. I say, buy quality, because as a consumer it will mean we get quality in the future. At the moment, Peter Wheeler flogs every car he makes, the press love him, and so he can afford to dismiss customer complaints. 'If you don't like em, don't buy em' he's thinking. Imagine if everyone stopped buying TiVs until Peter Wheeler stopped taking the piss and made them properly. One day he would think 'shit, I'd better start listening to complaints and start making well-built cars', and you would then have a TVR that was fast, characterful, maybe a little bit more expensive by a grand or two, but one that wouldn't fall apart and which would have been fully tested. A TVR with Porsche levels of build. The world would then be a much better place, would it not?

Dom, I think likening TVR's to 1970's Austin Allegros is a little harsh. I think it is important to remember with TVR is that they engineer their cars from experience on the race track and the fact that Peter Wheeler is intelligent enough to keep his costs very low should be praised not critcised especially when a 100k Ferrari would be in the garage as much as if not more than a TVR. The fact that people do buy TVR's suggests to me that Peter Wheeler isn't taking the piss and people actually quite like his methods. No-one debated Porsche engineering and the company pride themselves on it! I think the price tag does not reflect the level of engineering like I said before look at Ferrari. Currently the idea of having a Porsche is because of the name it bears on the bonnet, gradually extremely wealthy people such as David Beckham are coming round to the fact that whether you have 10 million of 100k a TVR is a special thing to be in. It is not mass produced and on every street corner in Kensington it has character, stunning looks, innovative ideas and some of the fastest most exciting cars on the road at the moment. The makers of Swordfish wanted something `different and exotic'. Thats what you get when you buy a TVR. Lets be honest you can't argue with Hollywood Will Smith drove a 911 in Bad Boys but in the 21st century the Tuscan is what the people want, Rob

I really wonder why everybody here are wasting there skills in comparing TVRs with Porsches: once for all one can't do the job of the other one. Apparently it seems to me we all of us want a TVR with Porsche reliability and usability. This is absolutely impossible because: - first TVR will NEVER be wealthy enough to develop their cars correctly, whatever the amount of cars they sell every year - A TVR as usable as a Porsche would not be a TVR anymore, for eventual everyday use would certainly mean softening the whole car. IMHO, if TVR followed more rigorously a racing programme (ie on an international scale: ALMS, Le Mans,etc) ,it would off course help them become more famous but also learn where best solutions are learned: in the racing arena.

Thom, I quite agree - but Mr BG states: "The fact that people do buy TVR's suggests to me that Peter Wheeler isn't taking the piss and people actually quite like his methods." BG - this says to me that TiV owners actually like Peter Wheeler giving them chocolate engines blah blah blah. If they do, then shouldn't they be sectioned along with Adam Ant? However, I can take the point that maybe BG is referring to Peter Wheeler's attitude of building cheap and quick cars (with associated problems as part of the deal), rather than well-built and expensive sports cars. You pays your money, you takes your choice etc. This is fair enough. What I don't understand is the hyper defensive attitude of some TiV owners (not you in particular BG). A better built TiV is in everyone's interests. I might even buy one, and then Peter Wheeler could get some of my money. As for lumping Allegros with TVRs - well I wasn't really - but BG did seem to come in with his Union Jack undies on. The point is that if British companies have faults, we should do a John Harvey Jones, instead of letting the stiff upper lip wobble. I buy British when I can... 3 out of my 5 last cars have been built in the UK... but I'll still make a decision based primarily on quality/value. And a car's got to have both. (OK that last 'value' comment may rule out brand new Porsches, and all Ferraris, but you can't deny Porsche the quality card.) As for Porsches being status symbols - I think there is still an element of that, but I have seen as many poseurs in TiVs. Maybe they like the exclusivity and raucous exhaust note ;-) Most porkers I see are Boxsters and these aren't really chest wig chariots owned by show-offs - the owners are more likely to be accountants going through a mid life crisis. There's probably a higher chance of seeing a pearlescent TiV parked outside a nightclub or the Man Utd training ground these days. Thom - as for whether TVR will ever be able to afford to develop their cars properly, well, yes, I think they will. With a change of strategy. Don't make a new model every year - develop one properly. That is how Caterham have managed to do it. Also, making their own engine was courageous - hats off - but maybe there was a mass maunufactured alternative. The Pagani Zonda uses a Merc engine, for example. Unit cost will be higher, but think of the development costs for the AJP, and the fact that there have been problems years later that needed sorting. All IMHO and with regards Domster

I hope so. Sorry but the Caterham example is IMHO not appropriate: Caterham will go through the wall because their 7 won't be able to survive strengthening of the crash tests requirements. Even if this is right it won't happen for they have gone much too far in engine building to go back ( and worst of all interpreted as a give up... )

Yeah, it's probably cheaper for them to get the AJP engine perfect now. The development period is nearly over. Some engines must be well over 100k miles. I see what you mean about Caterham, although I think legislation will always have a few loopholes for 'classic cars' etc. I know that in places like Sweden, people import Caterhams, install an old twin cam engine c1973 and then try and get a pre-legislation reg. Or something. Cheers Domster

www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=5479&f=13&h=0

Yep, definitely go for the speed eight

Hi Dom, Oh yeah, thats what I need, more power!!! their is a company here in the U.S. that sells a kit that looks very much like one. the thing I know about superchargers is that the torque goes up alot more than the hp figures would lead you to believe. Its just hard to nail down some figures on how much though. can someone out there tell me ?? Another thing, why did that car you know blow up???? The kit out here uses 4.5 psi, not 6.0 psi. speed.

Dear Santa, I have figured out what I want for this year due to the fact that you forgot to bring these things last year. So here it goes. 1. I need the supercharger for my RS and don't be funny, I want the whole kit. 2. Two factory lightweight seats for my car and I perfer black, with red piping. 3. A new set of red seat belts because, my original ones have been cleaned way to many times. Oh yeah, they may be out of stock at porsche but, I guess you know that. 4. Hey Santa, look, I've held my end of the deal every year so, what about you. your friend, speed.

Hi speed, Not sure about torque figures, but as you say, it should be more than the bhp increase. 4.5 psi isn't too much, so reliability shouldn't be a deal-breaker. However, the one I know that blew was used quite hard, and I don't know the specifics. I was just told that it 'grenaded', presumably something letting go at high revs, maybe a bottom end bearing. Remember that these conversions basically keep all other parts standard, and although the Euro RS at least had a blueprinted engine, you are giving it another 90 or so bhp to contend with - plus a lot of extra torque. Puts extra stresses everywhere. Maybe uprated conrods would help. The biggest reliability problem would be the supercharger itself, I would think, as although the Eaton unit is pretty simple and well made it is a bag of extra complication. I know that VW G-lader engines have more reliability problems. As for Santa's requests, well good luck, but I'm not sure you can get red piping on the lightweight RS seats you may be talking about. The ones I've seen have not been piped, but they do have a segment of three different seat pads, often in different colours. Maybe you could get those in red. The new 996 Turbo buckets look quite sexy though. Cheers Domster

Hey Domster, thanks for the info, I'm gonna write to those guys about the system on that car. Yeah,those seats look great but, I hear their like 3k/seat though. sounds like recaro race seats for me, the best ones in their line are about $700. U.S. and their on sale all the time. Do you know of any RUF turbo conversions out there ? 993,964 rct or btr?? speed.

Hi speed, Do you mean Ruf conversions as in cars for sale, or upgrade kits? Don't know many Ruf cars in the UK, but they are based in Weybridge, Surrey and may have a website. The german Ruf website you probably know about, and mobile.de will have a handful for sale. As for conversions, I think only Ruf do these, and they aren't overly cheap. I think turbocharging is a bigger affair than supercharging, though... useful for big hp gains, but not as simple as the bolt on Eaton unit. After all, once you get near +1 bar boost, bits will need uptrating in the engine, and the project gets much more expensive. Also the intake charge is hotter in a turbocharged system, I believe, because of the heat generated by the exhaust driven turbo. This means an intercooler, which will require a whale tail (which you have I think?) etc. Apparently you can get 330 bhp out of a normally aspirated RS engine - I think 930 Motorsport in the UK has done this. Maybe drop them an email. It may be cheaper/easier than the forced induction route. Cheers Domster

I think theres a Ruf conversion in the Porsche for sale section.

Glad to see you're thinking of a 996, Walter - makes a lot of sense for you, and your requirements. Get it in Silver, GT3 aero pack and LHD and I'll buy it off you when you've had enough of it! Rgds Domster PS Yes, yellow bird replica is for sale, circa 30k GBP - lovely car, it took me back to my 'Fasczination' experiences. I take it you've driven the 'Ring on many occasions...? PPS Have you driven an M Coupe? I only drove a small way in one, and wasn't fussed by the Roadster, but people reckon they are quite good. What about one of them instead of the SLK?

silver, fine. GT3 kit? No, sorry, I don't want to appear flashy, and I'll have to hide the damned thing when I visit customers anyway. It had to be a roadster, and I found the SLK 320 better than the M Roadster. Also, the SLK 320 is a completely different animal to the 200/230 SLK's. It is somewhere between a BoxSter and a BoxSter S. I've had it now for 11 months, will hang on to it for at least another year. Be warned, if I buy a 996 it might well be a Cabrio. The SLK 320 was cheap and cheerful, just right for finding out if I like roof-down motoring - and I love it! Any views as to whether it is worth buying a Carrera 4 and losing all the performance and luggage space against a Carrera 2? After all, a rear-engined RWD Carrera 2 must have fantastic levels of grip anyway ... Rgds, WalterU Edited by WalterU on Thursday 17th January 18:18

WalterU I have driven the 2 and own a 4 performance is not an issue at all and in real terms the 4 has a huge amount of grip over the 2, luggage space could be a problem but there is always the back which is pretty good for putting things. Cheers Lee

Hey Domster, the only reason I don't consider a 3.8 conversion for my RS is that it may not satisfy me. 320 - 330 hp doesn't interest me because my car now runs very well against them. What I'm looking for is a pretty good increase that I can really feel. with the way my car is set up, the 993's and 996's that I've come up against are shocked as I pull out of the corners and pull away. I have no interest in losing any of the performance I have but,we'll see. speed.

Re Walter and his 996 - I've had a few cabriolets, so I see the appeal (especially hood down on a Summer night, which is quite magical), but I like the stiffness of coupes for a sports car. Open tops suit GTs, but then Walter needs a GT, and in effect, that is what the 996 Carrera is anyway. Much more luxurious and practical than the previous generation. Interesting what Lee says re the C2 vs C4 - I have always been looking at 993s and 964s from a second hand perspective, and as an ownership experience the C2 is preferable as it holds its value better and is less complicated, so fractionally more reliable and cheaper to maintain. Also, some say that the balance and throttle adjustability of the 993 and 964 two wheel drive cars is much better. I haven't driven a 996, so the dynamics may be much better for this model, and let's face it, reliability isn't so much an issue, if being new under warranty. Re Speedracer's engine tuning - fair point, Speed, your best bet would be a supercharger, but for a *really* big hike you'll need to get a turbo lump and tune it. Apparently 400 bhp is common in Turbo 2s. It may be cheaper to buy a second hand engine and tune it out of the box (sell your existing engine or keep it as a spare) than convert your RS engine. A turbo conversion will probably be about 10,000 dollars or so, whereas I'm sure there are turbo engines out there in salvage yards for less. You may need to uprate a few other bits as well, gearbox, clutch, driveshafts etc, but then you may get away with it. Not sure, but bear it in mind. Cheers all Domster

Hey Domster, I will check out the possible engines around and also my friend derek has just finished rebuilding his 79 3.3 turbo that is now a 3.5 twin plug and very big turbo. he won't tell me about the hp figures but, knowing him, its up there! he converted his car to a 5 speed but, he still uses the cis fuel system. I've gotta tell him about this site. thanks for the ideas and I will consider everything. I don't know anybodt with a supercharger ona 3.6 so, I have nothing use as a guide or help me to decide. I know I'm being greedy when I seek more power. The car runs very well but, I see the newer cars with so much more factory power that I feel I'm being left behind. you know !!! talk to ya later. speed.

Just thought I would offer my views on TVR's and Porsches born out of personal experience. I bought Tuscan....(New)... February last year, (380BHP and all the extras). Within a couple of weeks, the rear screen squeaked, the roof rattled, the speedo didn't work, the throttle pedal was sticking, there were some minor paint blemishes, and the air con didn't work properly. In the 9 months I owned it, it broke down five times, plus there were a catologue of other problems, (seat trim breaking, doors not closing properly intermitently, brakes seizing, gear lever coming off in my hand etc.......). Yes, the acceleration figures look impressive on paper, but in the real world, unless you are driving on the smoothest, grippiest tarmac, you'll never get more than two thirds of the power down, and once on the move it will tramline so violently if you''re not use to it you'll think you've just had a blow out. In fact over 80mph, you'll need two lanes to keep it on the road, as the steering is so super sensitive to the slightest camber on the road. This sort of driving experience undoubtedly is exciting when a road tester is driving the car for a couple of hours for a magazine but when you have to live with it, you realise quickly that there hasn't been a lot of development time allocated to the car. And as for track days, forget it!! There is very little down force at the rear, so at speed under heavy braking, the tail will go light and start swinging like a pendulum, and as for exiting, the rear will be scambling for grip. A porche 911 on the other hand, (anything from a 964RS to the current 996), runs rings around a Tuscan in terms of outright performance, as well as build quality. In comparison the Porsche just feels like a properly developed car. I have a 996 GT3, which might be 30K more to purchase (from new), but is so tremendously stable in all driving situations that it inspires confidence. With 20BHP less, the Porshce can be driven at least 25% quicker in real life situations, and is far more tactile and refined. Having also owned a 993 carrera 2, I would say that this car also is in real terms a far faster car than a TVR Tuscan. Oh and lets not talk about TVR depreciation which is simply off the scale if like me you were stupid enough to buy one from new. This might sound like sour grapes, but I too wanted to support our British manufacturers. I've owned two Morgans, (a plus 4 amd Plus 8), which I loved. I wish that Peter Wheeler would stop using his customers as guinea pigs for the development of his cars and concentrated on developing them properly. It's a shame, because in so many ways TVR's are fabulous....their looks, sound and uniqueness are second to none. But when you start paying serious money for a car, a manufacturer must start taking his customers seriously too. To summarise, there is no comparison between a TVR and a Porsche

HMMM. Perhaps that explains the sometimes vitriolic responses of TVR lovers - they secretly know it but don't want to admit it. I find TVRs very very sexy - and Porsches not. But I didn't make my money by frittering it away at every opportunity, and it seems to me that a Porsche is the better and cheaper option. Did anyone read the Autocar test of the 996 Carrera 2 in the late dec. 2001 edition? The tester called it, considering what you get and what you pay, a bargain. Rgds, WalterU Edited by WalterU on Sunday 20th January 01:54

Interesting posts, guys. As Nick says, there is no real comparison. I am just surprised how defensive the TVR crew can be, and even Peter Wheeler has been known to deny reliability issues. I see that re: 'the 996 bargain' Walter refers to, many of the car magazines are now claiming that the new E46 BMW M3 holds the crown. It's 10k cheaper than the 996, just as quick and well built(?) I haven't driven the latest versions of the 911 and M3 (only the older versions, but quite a few of them) so could anyone else comment? Speed - try emailing autofarm for more info re supercharging, they might be able to help.

i think it is just EVO that put the M3 as top dog, you should see the write up for the new 996 in Autocar. i think the general conscencious is that the M3 is almost as quick, almost as good but £17K cheaper = hence top dog. i wanted the M3 but 2 year wait and rep car looks led me to a second hand 996 (ie saving the 17K) must say it is a blast.. Benno

Domster, Most TVR crew (including me) will admit the reliability concerns are true to an extent but get fed up with them getting blown up out of proportion - ie all speed six engines blow up - I like Porsches, good cars and who knows I may get one one day, but the last two fun cars have been TVRs. Cheers, JSG.

TVR engines don't have a habit of blowing up. It's actually a fabulous unit. (it does leak oil though) and the electrics are of a very low quality, no doubt Peter Wheeler's way of saving money. There are also tons of badly designed engineering aspects to the car which conspire to stop the it working on a regular basis. Simply unacceptable on a modern car, (especially on a car well over 40K!!). The car cannot be driven on a daily basis.

Perhaps a classic case of "don't believe everything you read"? I've reached the stage of not believing anything I read, at least until I've had the time to think it all out from different angles. A bit slow on the uptake these days! Autocar are perfectly correct; the 996 is a bargain - for its quality. But to be fair, you have to say that the TVR is a bargain for its performance. Back to square one!!

Not that I wish to fuel this tired debate but you'd better tell that to the people who do use them on a daily basis.

Fair play, JSG. I'm sure the issues do get blown out of proportion, especially by people who don't know the full facts. It was only the 'TVR can do no wrong' crew that my comment was aimed at, as their ignorance is almost as bad as the 'TVR can do no good' ensemble. Here's to truth, fair play and sensible discussion. What ho, eh Ted?

Dom wrote: Most porkers I see are Boxsters and these aren't really chest wig chariots owned by show-offs - the owners are more likely to be accountants going through a mid life crisis. An interesting comment sorry it took me a while to get back to that. I should imagine an accountant going through a mid-life crisis would be in a DB7 vantage a Boxster is more of an estate agent's company car. This months Esquire magazine has an interesting article on Wheeler and TVR. Quite an apt quite from the article is as follows `Unlike previous TVR's the Tuscan S handles like a proper sportscar and the hand-crafted chrome-and-leather interior is simply beautiful; it is a long way from the plastic fantastic offerings of TVR pre-Wheeler and makes a £58,000 Porsche 911 Carrera seem a little staid.' I would have thought it quite obvious that a Tuscan is not an every day car and give it 2 years and all of the faults will be ironed out much like the modern Chimaeras. The moral of the story is don't buy a new model TVR wait for a few years until they figure everything out, in the meantime settle for a Chimaera500 which will start every day and rip the hell out of most Porsche's. Edited by mrbigman on Wednesday 23 January 01:30

" and rip the hell out of most Porsche's "

Fair enough BG - dunno why I started calling you that as it should be MrBM, but that has Munich connotations you may not like ;-) - the Boxster is probably closer to the demographic you describe. Interestingly, the 911 crew tends to have a higher proportion of 'enthusiasts'. I think you are right re waiting a year or two to sort problems, this is exactly what a dealer said to me when the Tuscan came out. However, the quote you refer to re the interior doesn't actually mention build quality - just the styling. I think the porker/tiv debate always rages around the fact that TVRs have more stylish and characterful aspects, but often at the expense of reliability. After all, bland grey plastic is a better workday solution than fanciful bits of MDF clad in lilac leather. If the Grif 500 was as reliable as it may seem to be, I'd be getting one as my next car, for sure. However, I know of one owner who had serious problems with his 500, and that the engines are the least reliable of the Rover units. And as McNab points out, 'ripping the hell out of most Porsches' on the road may be true, but isn't the point. A Porsche would 'rip the hell out of most TVRs' in the workshop ;-) Rgds Domster Edited by domster on Wednesday 23 January 10:04

Another boring Porsche vs. TVR thread. Look, it's simple: Porsches are better. There, I've said it. Better built, better (read - more predictable) handling, better reliability (but they do break down too!) and decent performance. But they're dull as dishwater to a TVR owner/admirer. We've been down this road a dozen times or more so let's just give it a rest. If you can't make up your mind which car to buy then just drive them all until you find one that floats your boat. There's room on the road for both of us (well, maybe not in the UK at least! . TVR - Brutal Porsche - Clinical Go figure

Porsches are faster than TVR's. They don't jump accross two lanes when they hit a bump. I've lived with both. You'd never be confident enough to drive a TVR more than 7/10ths. You simply can't get all the power down, the rear wheels lose grip, (add a bit of damp and a few bumps and the Porsche would disappear into the distance. It's not all about brute power. In the real world, where non of us are F1 racing drivers, very few people would have enough skill to have the confidence to drive a TVR at 10/10ths. I soon realised my limitations having raced several seasons in Morgans...(recommend the experience to anyone!!) so have had reasonable experience driving cars at their limits.

nick, I just got my authority to post suspended for less than your last posts, and have just returned after a 24 hour exile!! I cannot therefore possibly agree in full with you. Bennno

I used to do that with Centrefolds......

I used to do that with Centrefolds...... It's amazing the difference an airbrush can make....

I used to do that with Centrefolds...... It's amazing the difference an airbrush can make.... It must really tickle though...

Really? Is that a fact? Hadn't really noticed that myself. But thanks for putting me straight. I'll get rid of mine immediately. Why don't we all leave the mythology to the Greeks? I'm not going to start resurrecting the tired old insults about Porsches, because: 1) It's not productive 2) I happen to like Porsches Porsche and TVR are two great manufacturers that make great cars. Most people who can afford one could instead have chosen the other - you have to assume that most people go through some sort of thought process when shelling out a significant amount of hard-earned. Who knows, some clever people may have even taken [draws breath] a test drive. So maybe we should just respect the fact that people have made an informed decision one way or the other for their own reasons and let it lie. I'm amazed people aren't bored of this yet.

I think stig said it best a few posts ago. There's probably no point posting any more to this thread, as every angle of debate has been covered here and elsewhere on the site. Mainly thanks to bennno ;-) Welcome back, bennno, by the way. Domster

Canine analogy ; Porsche: Sleek thoroughbred Greyhound, purebred, fast and stylish, sleek with smooth performance. TVR: Rottwieller on steroids fed a constant diet of Nitrous Oxide and extreme sports videos.

Oh please gentlemen, don't waste your ideas on comparing cars which can't be compared

Ok, My final offering TVR = bl**dy great cars. Porsche = bl**dy great cars.

I usually add something deadly dull when a thread is heading for extinction.... but I've had a theory all along.... Anglo-Traffic culture: get in, fire up Tiv, brooooom, shoot off, meet queue, listen to luvverly noise again, find gap, squirt like hell, meet queue, listen to luvverly noise, find gap, squirt like hell, and so on. Max Wow factor required from takeoff. Brit perception: Oh Boy! Autobahn culture: get in, fire up Porker, quietly, quietly, no queue, onto autobahn, reach 150 mph. Max Wow factor THEN, but not required from takeoff. Brit perception: Oh God. JSG quite right. Both great....

true, McNab. On a business trip in Germany I expect to average around 90 mph.

Walter, you mean you AVERAGE 90 mph start to stop? That probably includes a fair bit of city driving before you get to the autobahn, and after you leave it too. Envy? You bet!! Surely you wouldn't want to live here?

WEEELLL ... Truth be told, not always, sometimes. Congestion is not as bad, no speed limits, and many modern industrial estates are close to the autobahns - keeps the lorries out of the towns. The rest is careful planning, such as being prepared to set off at 4.00 am, have breakfast somewhere at 7.30 am, and hit the first customer at 08.00 am. Sometimes have a kip en route. Not very enjoyable. The roads are just too crouded anywhere now. In UK I tend to work to the same principle. For instance, business in York. Left the evening before at 09.00 pm, 300 miles, 4 hours - work that our for yourself Rgds, WalterU Edited by WalterU on Sunday 27th January 13:42

90% Motorway? Steady 85 on M1? If more, admit it!

spot on - 85 is all I dare, based on the assumption that if caught I'll just get a wrap on the knuckles. Having a german car and km/h speedo, I go 140, which technically is 86. If you want to go fast, put cruise control on AND LEAVE IT ON. Rgds, WalterU

Me too...thank God for cruise control !! >> Edited by McNab on Monday 28th January 01:17

Yeah, if it wasn't for numptys pulling out in front of you... or even worse, idiots overtaking you then slowing down to less than your speed!

I tend to hover around the 99mph mark on uk motorways. Any less and I'd fall asleep, anymore and I'd risk a ban over the magic 100. A few people at work said the government are considering changing the limit to 80mph...

I think the ban threshold is 95mph now - 25 mph above the speed limit, whatever the road. I try and cruise on that or just below if pressing on. Still managed 145 at the weekend on a short stretch! Naughty naughty. Domster

To Lee77 Is the 996 as easy (and cheap) to decatt as a cerb 4.2 and does it make much difference to performance. I've thinking about a 996 with GT3 kit and adjustable suspension after having my cerb for 5 years now. If I could make it sound as good and go round corners as well I could live with less straight line go. Andy

Hi Andy My 996 has a full sports exhaust bhp increase by about 8-10(not de-catted but it can be done) and it does sound great not as much in the way of pops and bangs as the old Cerbera SS but easier to live with every day and still turns heads, Porsche charge about £2.5k for a new system there are cheaper options out there though Straight line speed the 996 is a bit slower than the Cerbera but not a lot and in real terms the 996 would leave any TVR for dead around the twisty bits (runs for cover) as the power delivery and handling are superb, mine is a C4 that has been lowered and the geometry changed by Parr Motorsport, the grip is just amazing to say the least( even in this weather) Only downside is the front spoiler will bottom out on car parks ramps etc and the wife steals it to go shopping in without asking. The 996 is the best car that I have ever owned or driven, I recently looked at the Tuscan S and decided to stay with the 996, my next car will be the 996 TT or a GT2. Hope this helps Lee.

Thanks for the info. Might just have to get behind the wheel and see. Andy

I've always liked the look of a 993 C2, but I am a bit worried that I have been spoilt for acceleration and character by my Griff. Never driven a 993 (used to have a 924 turbo, but that was many years ago). If anyone out there has had a 993 and a Griff then I would be interested to hear your views on how the cars compared. The reason I am contemplating a 993 is that 1) I would really like a Cerbera but am put off by the servicing costs and 2) I hate having to ration the miles of pleasure in my Griff (Porkers seem less mileage-sensitive when it comes to prices).