Test Drives - Page 2 - Porsche General - PistonHeads UK

Nice to hear about your experience with Camtune. Almost all Porsche specialists are pleasant to deal with, and it helps a lot if you sit down and discuss your plans with them. Sincerity matters! I had excellent treatment from Town & County in Aberdeen when ordering my 996 Tiptronic, and they offered me a test drive, which I declined due to having researched the alternatives thoroughly and found nothing likely to suit. The 996 Tiptronic was the only car which fitted my exact requirements, and I have the strange belief that in a situation like this it's up to me to suit the car and not vice-versa, so a test drive might have been counter-productve! After years with automatic 928s (the manual box didn't suit the 928 so well) I thought I knew it all, but now that I have the 996 I realise that I was guilty of plain lazy thinking! The choice of automatic or fingertip manual - or a combination of both, depending on the driving situation, is fantastic, and although it has taken a little while to get used to it I am deeply impressed. I hadn't realised how far technology had progressed, and for everyday press-on use you're probably quicker from A to B with this system than you are with a manual. So don't waver - give it a try, and good luck!!

I had great test drives with both AFN Reading and Guildford. Although it did take the usual few minutes of cash waving to get through the very initial "Sir has the unutterable temerity to consider purchasing a *Porsche*"...thing. After that I got a very good service complete with encouragement to push the loud pedal down.. I also noticed turning up in a TVR caused a bit of a stir. Hah. Even more fun when I told 'em I WASN'T trading it in! I think AFN were a bit *confused* for a minute or two.... I bought one so they can't have done much wrong really... Think I'll have to order my next one shortly.

By the way UV. You didn't consider a Boxster (preferably S) in your deliberations then? Need the rear seats? I've been very happy with mine - contrary to popular opinion they are great fun to drive - although not the quickest thing to come out of the Porsche factory. And the two boots are surprisingly practical...

I'm sure Boxster S is a great car, but I do want that extra performance. I have zero concern for practicality (apart from to get my golf clubs in). I think Porsche have an interesting problem with the Boxster, it has so much potential but I doubt they'll ever produce one that will upstage the 911 (not that it couldn't be done...)

That's a point! Can you get golf clubs into a 911? I'm not a golfer, but sons are.

I personally think that the Ruf Boxster could be the answer. You have the brilliant Boxster chassis, the soft top, but 911 performance. Better than handing over the cash for a soft top 911, the price of which I think is a deliberate insult. Rgds, WalterU

The real problem isn't how to get performance out of the Boxster, but the way in which it has been marketed. Porsche has made a big thing out of it being affordable, which is a good thing, unless you want something that isn't. Personally I like Q cars, so much fun to be had at the lights

UV, if you can streach an extra 3-4 grand, you could have my LHD 993 Twin Turbo with 408 VERY large horses. Make the 993C2 seem very very slow...

I've just bought a 3 bed villa in Spain, (can now play golf all year round ) so am already stretched. This is a pity because i'm a big fan of horses, especially large groups of them hiding under the bonnet of my car. Although if any of you lot like golf and want to rent a villa...

Popped into Evans Halshaw, Stourbridge (nr. Kidderminster) and chatted to a pleasant salesman about testing a 996. After ignoring his smarmy comment about the new Turbo having 'only 420 BHP, Sir' I asked about a C4 Manual. Being nearly 4pm I arranged to return the following Saturday to go out in a car and have another chat. Come Thursday I called to confirm and was told I'd be welcomed with open arms - just the kind of response I'd expect from a Porsche man dealer. Saturday came and off I toddled down towards Tourbridge, having travelled up from London and staying in Birmingham the night before. Go into the showroom and ask for the man himself, only to be told that it was his day off. The only thing left to do was go home, having decided that the best course of action was to call the dealership back on Monday morning and inform them that I hadn't intended to make a 250+ mile round trip for nothing, ruining my weekend in the process. Although I got an earful of apologies and promises of "I'll come to you" and "I won't do it again", I don't think I'll be buying a Porsche.

Oh come on. These forums are littered with stories of terrible treatment by one dealer only to be treated royally by another. If you want the car don't let a smarmy knob put you off so easily.

Ted, fool am I and wise are you. Went back to aforementioned dealers on Saturday (19/01) and was greeted by a Guards Red GT3 just waiting for me to crawl over. After a few minutes of quiet contemplation I was prised away to head out in a lovely 996 C2 coupe. What a car. Being my first 911 experience I can't comment on whether or not the 'experience' has been diluted over the years as many journos would have us believe, all I know is that it's one hell of a car. All the toys I could ever want, nice engine sound comfy seats (in the front: girlfriend sat in the back and complained - girls, they just don't understand!), and shedloads of performance. What really impressed me though, aside from the build quality (hewn from granite) and the perfomance, was how quickly I felt at home in the car. Nice, direct steering, supportive seats and pedals perfectly positioned for heel-and-toeing all meant that there was little to intimidate the first time driver. Admittedly I was being very careful given the damp and slightly muddy roads, but even at normal speeds the car was extremely communicative. So: a gorgeous shape, (in)decent performance and a great driver's car (for my money, at least) to boot. Now I think I'll make some comparisons with Blackpool's finest!

OK, the 993 I had my eye on (P plate with 43K, tip-tronic...) has been sold. Doh. I'm now faced with the choice of waiting for another good example to pop up or go for a 91 Turbo 2 with 26K on the clock. It looks fantastic, and i'll take it for a test drive in the next week. I'd be interested in people opinions/experiences of this car (i assume it doesn't suffer the 964 oil leak problems given it's a 930 derivative???)

Like bollocks it doesn't!!!

Sorry, that caught me off guard. Sensible answer now. Yes, 965 Turbo 2s will leak oil from the barrels - but the best thing is that you can spot leaking heads easily as there is no undertray, like there is on a 964. It inhibited cooling on the 965 engine, apparently. So, look under the rear of the car for oil drips. I myself have walked away from such a Turbo 2. All Turbo engines are also prone to leaking from their other many oil connections. Oil consumption is also generally a bit higher, often because the pistons are slightly undersize for expansion purposes and because the turbo burns a bit. All AFAIK. Cheers Domster PS I believe the factory solved the tendency for 964s to leak from barrels in about 1992, so not all will suffer from the problem. Edited by domster on Tuesday 22 January 16:09

If I do end up with a leaker, what's required to get it sorted, or will I only prolong the next incident? Did you have chance to drive the car you walked away from? If so what did you think?

Oh, the other thing that may not have been clear from my earlier post, is I'm considering the 3.3 not the 3.6. Is the 3.3 really just a tuned 930 or is it a smaller capacity 965 3.6 and hence dual-mass FW/dual plugs?

Hi there UV, "Is the 3.3 really just a tuned 930 or is it a smaller capacity 965 3.6 and hence dual-mass FW/dual plugs?" The 3.3 Turbo 2 uses the same engine as the previous outgoing 930, AFAIK. This is because they couldn't develop a turbo'd version of the 3.6 engine in time. So I presume it doesn't have dual ignition and a dodgy dual mass flywheel. Not sure re tuning. Didn't the 930 go from 270bhp to 300bhp to 320bhp during its life? Not sure. "If I do end up with a leaker, what's required to get it sorted, or will I only prolong the next incident?" Leaking heads is a risk on any car, not just 911s. However, some models were more prone to it than others, often because the head studs weren't up to the job, and could expand too much. It is simply a case of getting them taken off, and put on again properly, with new gaskets, studs etc. This is a 'drop the engine out' job I believe, so it is unlikely to be cheap. I'd budget 500-1000 quid at a friendly independent specialist, double that at a main dealer. Some people with 964s have converted to '993 barrels' at the same time, to avoid any recurrence of the problem. So there was some design improvement as well - not sure of precise details. However, remember that many 911s are driving around with oil slightly leaking from the heads, with no ill effects apart from slightly increased oil 'consumption'. My friend with an early 964 doesn't really mind if they do leak a bit (he can't tell anyway, because of his undertray). I don't want to overstate the whole problem, as it is relatively minor, but it is worth bearing in mind if buying a 911 made before 1992/93. "Did you have chance to drive the car you walked away from? If so what did you think?" Nah, it was stuck in the centre of a showroom, and the leaking barrels put me off, along with the fact it had new rear wings on both sides... obviously thrashed and trashed. I walked away sharpish. I know people with Turbo 2s who swear by them, but I have never driven one myself. I quite like the 3.6 myself, mainly for looks. Rgds Domster Edited by domster on Wednesday 23 January 13:29

Domster, thanks for the replies. Although I would like to spend more time tinkering with cars I haven't, so when it comes to looking over a potential car I'm not really sure what to look for. I will almost certainly be buying from Camtune in Surrey (the car is on their web site if you are interested), and hope they are honest guys and don't sell me a lemon. So, if I turn up and take this Turbo 2 out what are the signs of a problematic engine (a part from oil all over the place). Will I have easy access to view the cylinder head/head bolts. Would a problem likely be visible after a 20min test drive? The car in question only has 26k on the clock, in your view am I likely to suffer problems from perished ancillaries (given it probably hasn't been serviced that often) and general under use? Apologies if these are basic questions but now its actually about to happen i'm getting nervous about spending 35k.

Hi there, I'll help where I can, but there's a lot of 'AFAIK' going on here, so if anyone knows better, I hope they pipe up :-) The main thing to watch for with any turbo car is misfires, as although these can be simple and cheap to solve (new plugs!) they can also be problematic and expensive to solve (leaking head gasket, sticking valves etc). To check for a misfire, take the car out in the dry - in the wet you will be wheelspinning anyway - and make sure it pulls cleanly up to the red line without hesitating or stuttering. Have the stereo off as mechanicl noises will be more evident. Misfires are more likely to be caused under 'heavy load' so lower gear full acceleration is likely to be fine. Try accelerating in a higher gear up a hill, with a 'snap' throttle action rather than a really progressive one. This is the *worst* you can ask of an engine, really. At such low mileage, I wouldn't expect problems to the engine, but some others may have been caused through underuse, as you say. Rubber gaskets and seals, particularly in the gearbox/clutch region can fail, and be expensive (labour not parts) to rectify. All you can do is ask Camtune, and check how it was used (pampered or not, in a garage or not, driven regularly at least 10 miles a time etc.). Camtune have a pretty decent reputation - their cars are always a bit more than the private market, but this is reflected in their dealer back-up and warranty etc. If any ancilliaries have 'gone' you should spot them in the first month or two of regular use (tends to be things like aircon regassing) so if you have a 3 or 6 month warranty, no probs. If the car is inside the showroom, oil leaks should be evidenced by a drip or two of oil on the floor. Otherwise, peer undeneath with a torch and check that the engine is 'dry' - you can't miss the barrels if you've an idea of what a flat engine layout looks like. Head bolts will be impossible to check. They only need to expand a micron more than normal for a leak to occur. 35k is a 'good' price for a Turbo 2 - not too cheap, but still half the new cost price. If you said a car like that in RHD for 25k I'd be more worried. Rgds Domster

OK, just got back from Shirley’s in Birmingham. I went out in both a J plate Turbo 2 with 40K on the clock, and a K plate RS LWT with 23K miles under its belt. Two very different cars. In summary: The T2 has a Techart back box and the intermediate silencers removed. This apparently could be adding as much as 40BHP. It has RS suspension (it is very low) and what looks like new Boxter wheels (just fitted). It sounds bloody great. Not over powering or annoying, just menacing. The ride was firm but not uncomfortable, and extremely stable (got it to 90MPH). It felt really direct, in the same way a go-kart is. Saving the best bit till last....... It goes like stink!!! I've been in a number of low 5sec (0-60) cars and this would kick their ass. I don't know if it’s those alleged 40 extra horses, or whether its just been a while since i've been in a turbo car. It, disturbingly, accelerated quicker than I could process what was going on around me. I hope I get a bit better at this or it could be an early end to 911 ownership. In summary a great fun car for an every day person (i.e. not a motor sport pro). So the RS. Well, the car is immaculate, almost looks brand new. It's not as bare as I was expecting, but there are no concessions on the ride front. It is harsh and very jittery. You just can't relax, you feel every stone/blemish/change of camber and you need too. As you’ll be fidgeting with the steering wheel, making tiny corrections (which probably aren’t necessary). Talking to the mechanic, he say’s a lot of people stack RS's because they react to every change in road surface, which will inevitably catch some people out. Non-the-less a fantastic car with more noises than a winging left-wing politician. Very much suited to a motor sport pro (or aspiring…). So what did I do? Well of the 2 cars the Turbo 2 was definitely the car for me. Made the RS feel slow! I spent a long time with the mechanic talking/looking over the car. He got it up on a ramp and we gave it a good look over. There were 3 oil leaks. Superfical thankfully, 2 from rusted oil feed back pipes and one from the turbo sump, due to a warped washer (probably been grounded). The heads where dry as a bone. The clutch seemed to be on its way out and there was a cracked fog light. Bodywork almost perfect, hard to believe on car that is 10 years old. So I took the plunge, and agreed a price of £33K on the condition a new clutch was fitted, all 4 oil feed back pipes were replaced, the engine was steam cleaned and wax-oiled. So the people, very pleasant. Picked me up from the station. Made me a brew (counted for a lot at the time, bloody northern whether...), and entertained all my questions. They will even come down to London and pick my car up when it needs servicing. The mechanic was also happy for me to help in the servicing of my car (something I’ve always wanted to do). I pick the car up in a week. Oh and I get the private plate as well (J1LOF).

Nice write up UV - very interesting. It looks like I'll need to try both, but the T2 is closer to what I'm used to. Glad you got the clutch seen to - they are 1.5k at least fitted. Sensible checking for leaks, too. Relatively low miles may have meant leaks could have crept up on it. Look forward to seeing it one Sunday soon! Rgds Dom

One thing I forgot to mention was, in my questioning I asked whether the 965 inherited the dual mass flywheel. It does, so next obvious question is, what is it, and why does it go wrong. Well, what better way to help explain than to go and get one. Off he pops, 10 secs latter i'm playing with a dual mass fly wheel. In his opinion they are not the trouble people would have you believe. However, they will ware out quicker than a tarts’ elastic if you try and wheel spin the car. This completely shags them. It's OK once you've got moving but not from a stand still. It's also very easy to tell when someone has done it. The one I was looking at end life that way.

Hi UV, The only problem with dual mass flywheels is that the 'elastic' stuff in the flywheel sandwich can settle if the car isn't driven for long periods of time, causing a vibration. Also it tends to degrade over time. Not a massive problem unless you can feel it going wrong - and if you stay away from standing starts and you don't leave the car standing for ages, you should be okay. My mate has a lighter RS single mass flywheel on his 964, but interestingly enough the lack of mass causes it to stall occasionally on cold mornings at idle. Rgds Dom

I love the gearbox chater the RS produces. If you didn't know better you would have thought the thing had just exploded!

Just thought I would throw in my 2p's worth RE Porsche dealers as it was my first experience of them when I bought a boxster last week. Glenvarigill in Glasgow were really superb, couldn't do enough for you, the preparation of the car pre sale and the whole buying process was a pleasure. Not only would I be looking to buy a Porsche again for my next car, but would be very keen to do so from the same place. The delights of good customer care eh?? 8-)

I thought i'd start a thread where people could write about their experiences of test driving Porsches, friendliness of dealer if applicable, and any interesting snippets whilst in the pursuit of a 'new' Porsche. So, on Saturday I popped down to Camtune (having rang first) with an interest in test-driving cars in the sub 35K bracket. This nicely encapsulated 993 C2, and Turbo 2's both of which they had. On my arrival, there was a reasonable amount of prescreening before anyone took me seriously. I'd explained that for one reason or another I wouldn't be buying until January, but wanted to start the process now so that when January came it was just a matter of finding a good example of the car I wanted. Given that disclosure I was persuaded not to bother with the T2 as it was a rare car and will probably have sold by then. Must admit I was a bit disappointed by this but couldn't fault the argument. So, after all this banter we took out a 993 C2 with tip-tronic (sic). I had expressly said that I was a manual man, so to speak, and automatics are for girls, etc, etc. But a bit of salemans chitchat and we were out in a tip-tronic (TT). The guy was very chatty and helpfully spent a lot of time explaining the dynamics of the car and the TT transmission. Most of these were backed up with practical demonstrations. All I can say is ******* hell. Fantastic car. I'd been disappointed with 3.2s that I had driven before, but this was in a different league. It just pulls to the red line in every gear with absolutely no let up. And the TT gearbox was great (never thought i'd say that). OK, 0-60 times are slower but in real world driving the TT is fantastic, and probably a good bit quicker (over taking etc). One of the demonstrations was how good TT can be when you get things a bit wrong (over cooking it into a corner). A lesson on grip and a very clever gear box. Demonstrations over and it was my turn. I was a bit nervous, I must admit, given that I don't drive autos and especial expensive ones with lots of clever bits and pieces. Anyway two seconds later I felt completely at home and was positively encouraged to give it some stick. It all felt very natural and being able to change gear so quickly and with significantly less mental overhead allowed me to really enjoy the car. Anyway I’m completely taken by the car and very happy with the service I got from Camtune. I will certainly pay them a visit come January.