Advice on getting Clutch + IMS Done vs Waiting

Hey all, I picked up my '99 996 about 2 months ago with 71k miles on her. She's been running great so far with no issues (original IMS). When I took her to my indy for the first oil change, he was really pushing me to get the Clutch + IMS swap done given the mileage. I had an oil analysis done by Blackstone and it came back perfect. No high levels of metals or additives found. The clutch feels solid when driving and the PPI at the time of purchase came back with no issues. So my question is, do you guys feel like I should follow the Indy's advice despite these facts and just get the Clutch + IMS done for peace of mind? Or, save my money for the time being.

Yes, ... replace the following... 1. Clutch kit (sachs) 2. Dual Mass Flywheel (LuK) 3. IMS - IMS Solution from LN or at least the dual row Retrofit. 4. RMS 5. AOS 6. CPS - crank position sensor That's a short list.

It's kind of a ticking time bomb. There is no assurance it will or won't happen, but if you have the resources now, then getting it done will only give you peace of mind. Also, it gives the mechanic a chance to see if there is anything else that might be needing attention.

ZuffenZues is right, but I will add that you or your tech need to get the IMS bearing from LN Engineering and follow all the instructions to register the new bearing. It is easy to do, but it requires you or your tech to return the old bearing, so make sure one of you takes care of it.

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All very high on my list of things people replace that are working perfectly fine.

OP - If you’re happy with how the car was serviced the previous 71,000 miles, drive it and monitor. The IMS bearing just won’t explode 99.99% of the time. You’ll see signs and symptoms for injectors, IMSB, pads, etc; through UOA, ECU data and filter inspections. If you monitor your cam deviations, AOS vacuum and UOA (every 3,000 should give you cheap enough peace of mind) and the clutch is fine, wait. I had my tech bust open the motor to replace the IMSB with an LN and found an updated non-replaceable bearing already there. We both failed to catch that fact in the rebuild and service records. So wasted money due to unfounded worry. If this was an M96/03, I might elect to break in there at 71,000. With an M96/01, probably not without any empirical evidence. My personal experiences with the evil that is the M96 AOS say, if you do anything preemptively, install a UAOS.

I would either take an oil sample from the dipstick every 2 months religiously and send to a Lab for testing,( looking mainly at iron levels), and if any red flags go immediately to plan B, ( it would be like a cheap engine insurance policy for only a couple hundred $$ a year) or go ahead and put in the IMS Solution if your finances allow, plus the other while your in there's. I bought a 99 Cab 6 speed for my oldest son to play with about 6 years ago, and 2nd gear had been slammed a few too many times, so I pulled the trans to install new 1st and 2nd syncro's, and of course a new clutch/pp/TO bearing, and while I was there I pulled the IMS to replace it ( 70K miles) and low and behold it had started to fail !! It was just in the first stage of failure, but the thing about the 99 dual row bearings is that they will continue to shed metal for many many hundreds/thousands of miles before they start flopping...(catastrophically)..The weaker single row IMSB will fail much much quicker, so quick that it would be hard to catch..

I had everything done in my ‘99 C2 at 64,000 miles, mostly out of fear. Turns out everything was perfect, it didn’t need any of it done. Through various sources I’ve since heard the IMS wasn’t an issue in the ‘99s, but whatever fix Porsche tried actually made the problem worse. I’m not going to steer you one way or another, just providing one data point. Oh, and like you my oil analysis was great (pointing away from an IMS problem). I regret selling it (original owner, it was in perfect health ) and pretty much gave it away due to the dump it had taken via the internet, but didn’t have garage space at the time.

Porsche didn't try to "fix" the IMSB problem after the 99 models, what they were doing was to make the engine "lighter" by using the single row IMSB, the IMSB problem had not blown up like it did with the single row IMSB in the 2001 up to 2006 models. But the dual row is not totally immune to the disease either...

Welp, my experience was I did the clutch, shop said IMS looked fine and didn't need doing. 6 weeks later, metal in the oil. So, would recommend if you're doing it anyway, just get in there and do it. Pay once, cry once. Listen to your gut. Happy with my 3.8, but would have probably pushed it several years to the right if I had had the opportunity.

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I know that feeling of regret. I had a nice 2002 coupe that I sold with super low miles. I put a lot of sweat and blood into that car. The '99 had the dual row bearing which could handle more load than the successor - the single row 6204 bearing. The 6204 bearing was a nightmare and prompted the class action lawsuit. As Skip mentioned, the dual row can fail, but it's a slower death than the single row 6204. That being said, if I were have the transmission removed, then it's a no brainer for me. I'd put the oil-fed IMS Solution in the engine. Remember, the other side of the intermediate shaft has an oil fed plain bearing like the IMS Solution and it doesn't have a problem. The AOS and RMS are cheap parts but can be costly to install later. Do it now and save the hassle. Here's a picture of when an owner that lives near me didn't listen.

I was in the same situation 3 1/2 years ago when I bought my �99. Do I throw a bunch of new parts on a car that�s running perfect? My answer was yes. I won�t list everything that was done but I�ll say what I think were the 3 most important items to do. IMS Solution AOS NEW Genuine Porsche Fuel Injectors

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Yea, I never understand people that say that won't handle something proactively because it's "running perfectly". I just changed out the transmission fluid on a '99 C4. The car has 90K miles. The color of the fluid was dark like molasses. Looked like old engine oil that hadn't been changed in years. What you wanna bet it's the factory original fill? It's still crazy that a lot of ol' school mechanics preach that transmission fluid is a "life time fluid". I've heard that many times in my life.

I just dyi�ed my IMSB, rms, oil cooler, oil pressure sender, coolant reservoir, a tensioner, flywheel, clutch and plate after my clutch completely stopped engaging. I took out the old LN retrofit and it looked perfect however why would I want to go through this again in the near future. The retrofit was however overdue from recommended change interval. I did choose to do the RND roller bearing as I didn�t want to pay for a Solution. Now I just gotta put the transmission back on 😅

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I have a 1999 986. 84,000 miles. Replaced IMS. It�s a 2 part bearing and it looked brand new. However if you need a clutch, I would replace it. I understand the the percentage of failures in the 1999 is infinitely small.

Thanks all that makes a lot of sense. Question on the flywheel, my tech said they�ll inspect it and let me know if it needs replacing. Any reason you would change it out anyway? Thinking extra $$

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It's kinda like when people do a brake job and only replace the pads even though the rotor has considerable wear and relatively easy to replace. Unlike a brake rotor, going back in there to replace a flywheel will be very costly. The mechanic can measure the wear on the flywheel, but IMHO, I'd install a fresh LuK dual mass flywheel. The LuK flywheel cost about $700.

You'll probably be fine doing none of the items. But as someone that had the IMS bearing fail on their car, I tend to do preventative maintenance for the peace of mind. I'd rather not wait to see contamination in the oil. I'd rather know that I'm good. Regarding doing the flywheel, this is more up to you. While I was in there, I'd do it. But this can also get expensive too as you can end up doing everything. Since it's expensive to get back in there, I'd recommend it. But it isn't as important as doing the IMS bearing.

You have a few options. 1) do nothing and keep changing the oil and keep your fingers crossed. (no $). If the IMS goes you'll be looking for a new engine or a rebuild ($$$$$) 2) Do the IMS and clutch, nothing wrong with that but I'd want to check out #3 as well.. ($$$) 3) Not to burden more maintenance on you but if it were coming to my shop I'd want to drop the pan and check for pieces of the variocam wear pads. ($$$$) Unfortunately on the 99's you can't really check the cam deviations with a PIWIS like you can on the 00-01 cars. If I found pieces of the wear pads in the pan, I would only do an IMS if we also dropped the engine to fix the wear pads. Might as well do the DMF and clutch since it's coming off anyways. Oh- and that long plastic crossover tube to the AOS that you'd never be able to replace with the engine in the car- also the plastic vacuum lines (very inexpensive). I'm a one and done guy, the service is large and gets expensive so it is understandable why many 996 owners do not want to invest 1/3 of the value of their car in the "preventive" maintenance. Dropping the pan is easy, I'd do it at your next oil change, that won't cost you anything extra other than a few dollars worth of sealant. --Aaron

The flywheel goes bad due to AGE as well as miles. the rubber bonded to the dual mass gets worn out like a suspension bushing over time even if lightly driven.. Rubber ages and in my experience at least on other german cars ruber parts dies quicker than a lotof the mor plasticised rubber used in US cars.. YMMV... (Literally)

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Rubber bonded to the dual mass? Rubber in a dual mass flywheel??? huh? Where is that located? Maybe you're thinking about the transmission carrier bushing on the opposite end?

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Is this something that you recommend ordering the flywheel myself and asking the Indy to install to save markup price?

Someone who knows can correct me, but the indy gets the parts at a discount and you pay retail for it either way. I will often buy the parts for my tech just to make sure I get what I want. In one case, I have a competent indy who can follow instructions but doesn't know the 996. In another case I have an indy who knows the 996 way better than I do. I trust him to buy what is needed, but I often buy the parts for him as well. The reason for this is because I am replacing parts that haven't yet failed, so there is no diagnosis he needs to do. In the case of your clutch, you 100% want a dual mass and if you don't buy it, make sure the indy understands what you expect.

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You could, but in many cases, the shop won't warranty it. Just ask how much the parts and labor addition would add to the bill. Do the math and see if they're gouging you. Be sure to request the LuK dual mass flywheel and SACS clutch kits or you may end up with inferior components that could cause problems down the road.

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I've just found black pieces of plastic in my oil filter, this is the chain sliders, not the variocam wear pads, right? But I presume the recommendation is to drop the engine and change all the sliders and pads. Anything else of that nature to change while I am in there? The AOS + pipe was already changed, with the engine in

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On a five chain engine it you might as well replace the 4th and 5th timing chains while you replace the variocam wear pads. Chains are not very expensive.

Flywheel is $378 on Amazon, Amazon Amazon

I’m seeing $680 for the Luk flywheel and $1180 for the flywheel with a complete Sachs clutch kit on Amazon.

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that is cheaper than the $500 I paid from rockauto!

If you follow the link Amazon states that it doesn't fit, but it does. I cross-referenced the number with other sites and it worked fine on my car.

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This

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I just bought one that's a great price, free returns if its wrong, fake, used or broken. Part numbers match and it says its fits on Amazon, however after I bought it the price jumped up $100 to $470.

Haha now it is $500+

In regards to good deals found outside the usual FCP Euro or Pelican...having run a retail shop where we would buy at wholesale and sell retail, every one of the firms we sold for made us agree to never discount more than usually 20%. When you see something that looks like a steal, it may indeed by stolen, or it could be salvaged inventory from a store that was liquidated. Yes, the parts may be fine, but there is some risk there. Also, the ability to return a part for a refund isn't really helpful if the car is already on the lift. Just saying.

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LOL again with this nonsense, some Rennlisters hate when people find a good deal. You guys **** all over me for my FSB deal even when I did use one of the "usual" and now since I got a good deal on a flywheel its stolen... Only allowed buy anything from our giant part supplier corporate overlords FCP, Pelican, ECS, RockAuto for double the price, give me a break... Also the ability to return a part for a refund IS really helpful since I can get another one in a few days, not really the end of the world. Sorry I saved a few hundred bucks...lol Edit - this is also sold direct from Amazon and not a 3rd party, so if Amazon is stealing parts that's really not my problem

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I think this is a great response to my post. I particularly like the corporate overlord reference. Made me smile.

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To me it seems like the parts suppliers and retail shops are all in cahoots with this 20% rule to keep prices artificially high, Amazon doesn't seem to have agreed to this rule, they got the sale. Never have I seen a situation where Amazon would be the good guy but you proved me wrong. You assume everyone makes the same 20% discount deal as your shop and if not there must be foul play going on. I like how you left out the part supplier of the corporate over lord reference, I remember when ECS was still the good guys before they bought up tons of the little guys and then Turner and then raised prices. You seem to want a monopoly on parts sales to only the usual shops and for a maximum of a 20% discount, weird.

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I was going to get some parts from Pelican Parts 1 3 button rubber back for keyfob, 1 2 button rubber back for keyfob, 1 996 Coolant .04 cap ...Going through Amazon I was able to get the full keys fob with blades and the .04 a tad cheaper....I also got my $50 short shifter as well on Amazon....Some of these Porsche prices are a joke for a future updates or repairs...As long its legit on Amazon...I will get it there and with the money saved, add more goodies to my 996

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When I started this fun game of playing with cars almost 20 years ago I would hunt through tonsssss of websites to find the best deals on parts I was a broke *** kid, fast forward to now and we have maybe 4 reputable shops we buy from, FCP, ECS, Pelican & Rock Auto, a lot of the rest went under or were bought up by the big guys. The price of this flywheel is $738 on ECS, $705 on FCP, $690 on Pelican & $502 on Rock Auto. Assuming the highest price is the full retail price of $738, minus 20% leaves us with a price of $590. According to the 20% discount rule apparently all retail shops have with suppliers the Rock Auto flywheel must also be stolen? Time for me to start hunting around the web again to find the best deals because we are getting screwed pretty hard by the usual big companies that we have become so complacent with buying parts from. The flywheel I bought from Amazon for $377 shipped this morning from Amazon's warehouse in Lakeland FL, not a 3rd party seller. I could totally see a sketchy 3rd party seller selling illegitimate stuff on Amazon but I really don't think Amazon is stealing parts and storing them in their warehouses to sell. If them and Rock Auto (a reputable seller) are indeed stealing parts what am I suppose to do about that. I didn't buy a stolen flywheel out of some guys trunk lol. Another lesson from this is I will now start my parts hunt at Rock Auto since they seem to have the best prices, they are $236 or 32% cheaper then ECS and the other 2 companies are not far off.

From the end of the reseller- prices vary on these parts depending on who you purchase from. If you look at your Amazon link for the flywheel you will see pricing went back up to wholesale. $377 I have no idea- maybe a return idk, I hate Amazon. The nice thing about going to the niche dealers is you get the right part every time- and usually we remind you of the flywheel bolts you will also need. Oh, and do you have a flywheel lock tool? RMS tool? I'm sure the guy on Amzon will give you a phone call to remind you. --Aaron

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I don't get courtesy phone calls from anyone. It's on me to do the homework in most cases. Sometimes the websites are setup to remind buyers of additional parts that may be needed to do the job, but I've never received a phone call from someone offering advice or helpful reminders. There was a day where I could establish a working relationship with a knowledgeable customer service representative, but I'm afraid those days are long gone. Most people on the other side of the phone don't know the difference between a flywheel and a flying squirrel. IMHO, buyers look to get the same genuine part for less since there is so much markup on auto parts especially OE Porsche parts. The thing that concerns me are gray goods sold through platforms like Amazon or eBay... and why I only deal with trusted sources even if I have to pay a little more.

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From the end of the customer - Amazon is a reseller and had the lowest price so they got the sale. Both @Carlo D and I noted the rising price on Amazon 8 days ago in real time, I have also fully document the 3 price changes on Amazon in my build thread which you should subscribe to so maybe you can sell me parts in the future and give me a call when I miss something. $377 was the best price anywhere by far & I don't really care why as long as its legit, not used and it didn't come out of some guys trunk next to a bunch of stolen parts, as stated before this was sold and shipped directly from Amazon and their warehouse in Lakeland FL not a possibly shady 3rd party reseller using Amazon to sell questionable goods. Yeah we all hate Amazon, Walmart, Target, Home Depot, Lowes and any other giant store that comes in, under cuts the little guy on price to put them out of business and jacks up the prices after, but its not my job to keep you in business my job is to find the best prices on products I need, until I am a rich man my wallet comes first. This is true if the prices are equal or slightly more which they were not, if they were I would always buy from the little niche dealer but if you think spending 20% or 30% or 40% more just to have some guy tell me I need bolts is worth the extra price, let me tell you, it's not. Would I buy the flywheel from Amazon for its current price of $542, absolutely not, I would buy it from Rock Auto for $502, if Rock Auto didn't exist I would try and use another specialty shop for a price up to about $575 because I also don't love Amazon and would rather my money went somewhere else. FCP, ECS & Pelican are all right around $700 so Amazon is still a better deal at about 20%-25% cheaper than the usual spots I think most people use. One single person got a great deal on one flywheel and it has annoyed 2 retail shops, very transparent...

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Truth

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You did great imo. $377 is an amazing price for a Luk DMF. I've been looking for years at DMF. Always been lowest price at RockAuto for around $470-507. Never saw your $377 price, damn it. You skipped right over the Porsche tax.... I'm envious as that's usually me that gets the best price. Do you use a low price search engine..? Give the forum a shout next time you find stuff like this... jmo

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What I have done is look up the Porsche parts I am going to need to buy now or the in the future and google them, you will get different prices from many different venues and there you will see the markups that some "retail shops" add

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I can't take credit for finding this deal, @amargari tipped us off in this thread when they saw it last week, I appreciate it thanks friend! However I do have a method to finding parts, I love a good deal and I am always hunting for it, probably stems from being a broke *** kid and looking for car parts I could never afford to feed my addiction. I keep a spreadsheet for all 4 of my cars with 3 tabs, "Installed Parts", "Uninstalled Parts" & "Parts I Need", I also put the part number on the spreadsheets, that is important. Whenever I have a few min free I toss some part numbers I need into Google and see what pops up, if I see a good deal I will immediately buy it to lock in the price, I can always return it. Simple concept, but it works & you will also see the insane mark ups @ZuffenZeus @911Dreamer were talking about and they are usually from the usual companies we buy from most, FCP, ECS, Pelican. I came from VW's to BMW's and now to Porsche's, and the Porsche tax is out of this world and that fuels me further to find good deals.

Interesting, I just pulled up the Amazon link and it shows $542 now, lol..... Supply and demand price adjusting

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It went from $377 to $470 to $557 all within 2 hours. After I bought it for $377 it went to $470, I assume someone bought one for $470 so the price jumped again to $557 and now it has settled at $542. Rock Auto has the best price currently at $502. They gotta be adjusting price for supply and demand for sure, I think your right.

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Or Amazon can't find anymore stolen ones, lol...jk

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My go to for anything that's not a consumable is eeuroparts. Add them to your list of suppliers to check periodically. They have it for $496 and they are free shipping.

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Excellent data point, thanks for the tip! Adding them to my bookmarks right now.

I got a set of front rotors for my Cayenne CTTS from eeuroparts for around $1400, which sounds like a lot. Actually that was $400 cheaper than anywhere else. They are on my check list too. I believe eeuroparts is on ebay as "partscontainer".

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How do we know that data analytics and dynamic pricing are not used to determine price? If a bunch of brokers looking to place orders on the stock market, the price can go up in anticipation of demand.

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Glad to help. When I bought it a few years ago it was $465.78. So you got a better deal than me, LOL.

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IMHO, if you decide to do the IMSB, you can certainly replace the clutch and flywheel if they need it, but if they don't, spend the money elsewhere. I just had my LN Retro and RMS replaced last year. My indy took a good look at the clutch and flywheel and they were in great shape, so we didn't replace them. Instead, we spent the money on other refresh items. However, I would highly recommend replacing your water pump with another oem water pump to mitigate the risk of cyclinder/head cracking as well replace your AOS with the UAOS track to mitigate smoking, intermix and hydralock. It would also make sense to replace your fuel injectors, plugs, coils and MAF if they are old. And don't forget to run great oil and change it at least 2x a year. All of which help to mitigate some of the contributors of bore scoring. I own a 3 chain 996.2, so other guys will have to speak about the 5 chain items to be aware of and service. Good luck with the 996. Great car that is pretty easy to bullet proof. Add: Assuming that during your purchase PPI you did NOT drop the sump to see what's in there and did NOT cut open the oil filter, and did NOT scope the bores from the sump, now is a good time to consider do so before you start spending big bucks on refreshing parts. Yeah, I know your oil test was good. Why not get a visual.

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Links available to view?

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True statement of "progress" in wholesale/retail parts suppliers. I remember when I could call a certain sales-rep (or whatever the name is these days) and get the right parts and service, days of yore. The cost of OE Porsche parts was absolutely (and still is) insane. Good parts, yes, but not a Mona-Lisa. Oh, and yes, I DO have a flywheel lock and RMS tool, plus a lot of other special tools useful for Porsche. JMO YMMV.