Decisions - Fix or Sell?

I don't often post in this forum, so please go easy on me. I've got a 2001 996 C2 with 155,000 miles on the clock. While in the shop for an oil change, the tech told me that it sounded like one of my chain tensioners was going bad and that it would cost about $2,200 to fix it. I finally decided (three months later) to take back in to have that fixed. Now they tell me that the cams are way out of sync and that it needs the whole upper end rebuilt, to the tune of $7,500. Add to that a new clutch and some electrical work and I'm looking at a bill for $11-12,000. I bought the car five years ago for $13,000 and have been using it only as a periodic driver (no tracking or particularly hard driving). Other than these issues to be addressed, the car has performed well and reliably. So - who thinks it would be worth it to fix up and who thinks I should sell it as is and look to purchase either a later 996 or a 997 (or something else)? Thanks in advance for weighing in. (I just created a poll for those of you who like checking boxes).

I�m in a similar situation. I bought mine for $14k sight unseen and it needs about $10k in repairs to get it totally sorted out. I don�t regret buying it because I want to keep it for many years and with prices rising quickly, I felt it was a good time to scoop one up cheaply. I also like to think I�m saving a future classic that would otherwise be left to die an unsightly death. I want to keep things things on the road! i think we need to let go of the notion that any of this make financial sense. I know it doesn�t and that�s ok!

Not enough context, but from that post I would say go to another shop and get a second opinion. Sounds like you have some worn vario-cam pads, chain, and possible actuator. But even with a more reasonable estimate it will not make your "fix or sell" decision any easier....

If you could sell it for what you paid for it, disclosing all known issues to the perspective buyer, seems like an opportunity to take the money you have into it and put it into the next project.

Your "sounds like" sentence sounds like the words being thrown at me by the shop (new pads, new chain, new actuators). I've had my car serviced at two shops so far. when getting estimates for a new clutch, the other shop quoted me about 50% higher. So I'm thinking my current shop is going to be more modestly priced for the required work.

I always think, gee wiz if someone buys a high mile car at some point some lucky buyer will all inheret a big rebuild bill Sometimes you get lucky sometimes you dont So down the rabbit hole one goes If you love the car and have spent time and money keeping it fresh and this is all its needs.... maybe But at some point you cut your losses and move on Only you know which is best for you

I'm just wondering if I would love another 911 even more. I don't know - this was my first Porsche (earlier in life, I had Jaguar E-Types).

That's a real predicament. If the car is generally worn out I would be reluctant to drop $10K into it because that $10K it won't add even close to that in value. If you do a major rebuild and spend $20K the car may be worth $20K to $25K unless everything else is in perfect working order. I would look at the cam deviations and also inspect the bores to see if you got a real rebuild ahead of you. What you don't want to have is a car that demands multiple thousands every year as the next thing happens. If you cut your losses now, you can probably get what you paid for it (maybe more) and let someone else go down the rabbit hole. I think there are plenty of DIY guys that would love a project like that. Of course, it all depends on how the rest of the car is (interior, suspension, paint, AOS, IMS, tires, etc.). Or better yet, drive the snot out of it and if something major happens you could still fetch $10K as a roller.

In addition to the modest price, some factors I considered when I bought the car in 2015 at 139k miles were that it had decent power, the suspension was tight and rattle-free (indicating good upkeep on all the flexible bits), the paint was generally in good condition (with a few paint dings), and the interior leather and Alcantara headliner were in outstanding shape (some of the trim still needs TLC, though). I don't consider the car generally worn out at all, especially with the prospect of a new clutch and the anticipated work on the engine upper end. Although I'm not too much of an auto mechanic, I do know enough to be at least interested if not concerned about the anticipated life expectancy of the lower end - pistons and bearings.

I think folks should only consider full engine rebuilds at this stage of engine life, or sell the car. Don�t drop $5k or $10k and expect that one fix to last for 100,000 miles or even 20,000 miles, even if it could. Edit: I�d also consider a DIY used engine swap, if you could find one and do the swap yourself on the cheap. It�s rolling the dice, but selling two failed engines worth $1000 apiece won�t be hard, and the used engine shouldn�t really cost that much (let�s say $6k or less), so you�re only out $4k and time if it goes south.

And how much more would I expect to pay for a full engine rebuild? I'm not a DIYer when it comes to replacing engines.

Get another opinion. A simple scan of the cam deviations will tell u if the variocam pads need done. Chain tensioners are about $500 for all 3 and should not be more then 4hr labor and an oil change. Redoing the variocam shouldnt be more the $5k depending on if its only pads. I just spent $1500 on parts and did all the work myself, which included plugs, coils and fuel injectors. if u can do it yourself i would do a prequalification protocal as if u were installing an ln engineering ims bearing and scope the cylinders. This will give u a good overview of the health of your motor and if its worth spending the green. Also if they pull the motor for variocam work its an extra hour to do the clutch. Pricing on this whole job seems like it was done as book time for each individual repair not as entire job. Pricing is real high imho.

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As I recall, the shop told me that the cam deviation was 17 degrees, way out of spec. They recommended doing the pads, actuators, and chain, and quoted me about $7,500 for this work.

I think you�re looking at $20k to do it right

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At that number u would have a cel light. Some reader use a crank angle instead of a cam angle. Mine does this and u have to devide the numbers by 2. That would even be an 8.5 and that would probably give u a cel too. See if another shop or that shop to rescan and take a pic if the screen. U should be able to see both banks and that helps. Mine before my work.

This is just my personal uneducated opinion: At 155k miles an engine requiring significant costs in repairs would lead me to consider a complete reconstruction of the engine. I know we hear about 200k-300k engines but those seem to be the exception rather than the norm. You ask about cost for a "rebuilt" engine...depends on who you get to do it for you as prices are all over the board. The best is a reconstructed engine... not cheap, but it is the best because...well it is done right. It all boils down to how much do you love the car. If you don't love the car enough let it go to someone who will invest in the car and love it. As said above only you can make this decision.

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Whew.

This is a tough one, you got a 911 for 13k 5 years ago and now it's got some issues. You could sell it as a roller for something like 3-6k, depending on the spec. You could get it fixed or rebuilt but it's going to cost somewhere between what they quoted you and 20k+ for a proper rebuild of the motor. On this one, I am leaning a little more towards getting another Porsche or something else unless you really love this car. Depending on how much you put into it over the 5 years you could get out of this relatively unscathed. Maybe test drive some other cars and see how you feel after that.

Unfortunately you got your car for a nice low price, so any major work is going to seem even more expensive to you. If it were me, I wouldn't spend $10K on just the top end work. There are other components(IMS Chain pad) that are likely as worn. I'd do a full rebuild. To paraphrase Jake Raby, you can either pay once to have it fixed correctly, or pay twice...or even three times. You're looking at around $20K to have it rebuilt. But if done RIGHT you could expect to get more than 155K miles out of the rebuilt engine. Done "Right" means preventing all of the currently known modes of failure. If you can wait to have it done, talk to Flat 6 Innovations about having yours rebuilt. They're the only place I know of that can prevent all known modes of failure.

I think at that mileage, considering the other usual suspects of potential engine demise, IMSB, and bore scoring, without further analysis, its difficult to tell whether its worth sinking even that amount of money into it. If you like the car and having work done to it to bring it back to life, not necessarily totally restoring it, it may be worth the money to rebuild the engine. Other factors to consider are the condition of the suspension, ie rubber parts and the brakes. I spent more for mine up front with lower miles, though didn't do any real inspection of it ahead of time and rolled the dice. I've been rewarded so far. I have been doing my own investigation to see what kind of shape the usual failure points are in.

I was faced with a similar dilemma. 2002 996 Targa with 165K B/S (bore score) engine. I purchased a used engine (60K miles) with warranty (90 days, no mileage limit), replaced the clutch, pressure plate, flywheel, and related parts, installed an IMS replacement bearing, and fixed little things that are easy or cheap while the engine is out (motor mounts, coolant tank, etc.). Total cost was barely over 13K and I had several other items addressed while the engine was out. You could do it for less if you pass over small items to do later. You are then free to decide what you want to do with the old engine, either sell it, or have it rebuilt into something stouter. Your choice. PM me if you want to know more.

Could be worse: https://www.sonnysracingengines.com/...street-engines

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Yikes.

Logically, I don't see any reason to keep the car unless a second opinion changes the outlook. You got 5 years enjoyment at a great price. It has value still so even better after you recoup some $. I paid similar 3 years ago, it could grenade tomorrow and it was already worth it for me. Emotionally, that's a different story. I need to make sound decisions all day long, but not one in my life involved an automobile and that is unlikely to change with this one. To me, it is just such an iconic car even if it doesn't appreciate much - not why I purchased it. Not saying its right for you or anyone else, that is just me. Cars are my kryptonite. If you do make the emotional decision, I agree with the sentiment that the full rebuild (FSI) is the way to go - I will go that route, Lord willing. Especially at the rock bottom price we paid. Otherwise it makes a silly decision sillier. I hope that someone I love will drive a 30, 35 y.o. 996 in excellent condition when I'm done. It doesn't get any more emotional than that for me Good luck whatever you decide, Majicb

In my opinion the age and mileage call for a full rebuild. Unless there�s an emotional connection or you�re completely in love with the spec of your car, it�s probably better to move on. The price to rebuild + whatever you get for this 996 will buy you a nice lower mileage 996/997.

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Yeah, but there�s a chance that car will also need an engine rebuild at some point too. The trick is going to be timing, but that�s tricky, because some problems are not age or mileage dependent (bore scoring). I guess a bore scope PPI would mostly solve that problem.

I know the shop told you these things need to be done but what issues are you experiencing with the car? CEL light, rattles, smoke, burning oil?

Doesn't Porsche still sell new short blocks for about $7k? Have you heads checked & mounted on one of those, swap over the various parts, new fuel injectors, and be good for another 50-100k. Probably 12k out the door. I'd get a second opinion first, though.

If you fix it it'll be like a good woman, you've been through a lot together, you'll love it more than another 996 that'll come with a big question mark regarding maintenance. If you decide to sell please don't get a 997, that'd be like dumping a good woman for a ***** ****.

Fix it, but don't just rebuild the top end, rebuild the whole engine. Just doing the top end *can increase the load on the bottom end to the point where the bottom end will wear out very quickly. Just my .02...

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$10K for a roller?

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Maybe a bit optimistic, but if the car was in otherwise excellent shape it might get that kind of money, particularly if the engine is buildable.

You can't buy another for the price of the engine rebuild.

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I've only had some engine noise when I start it after a few days, which I understand indicates worn chain tensioner pads (at least). No CEL, no smoke, etc.

With 155K miles, I would guess $4K for a roller. If everything else was perfect. (suspension, body, interior, transmission) I still don't think it would fetch $10K. Porsche short block might get you fixed for $12K...if you do all the work yourself. Paying someone will get you much closer to $20K...and the engine would have ALL of the same weaknesses as the existing engine. Better to find someone to rebuild it for you, Just make sure that someone REALLY knows what they're doing. For me, my suggestion stays, call Flat 6 Innovations first. If you can't wait that long, get an RND engine from LN Engineering. If that's too expensive...sell as-is.

+1

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What's an RND engine?

I think u guys r just assuming the worst. at this point he needs variocam pads and tensioners. Its not that big if a job if he finds the correct mechanic. this all goes back to getting the bores scoped to verify condition and getting all the numbers from a good scanner. my motor has 200k, no bore scoring... this year i spent $1500 on coils, fuel injectors, tubes, variocam pads and a bunch if other stuff and it runs great. Yea i did the work myself, but if u cant, any used car is gonna cost a lot to maintain. your car is not worthless and your motor is not trash....it just needs some maintainence.

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This is what I paid for my stage 1 from FSI with all the weaknesses solved. Have prices gone up on these builds? I know demand has gone crazy since I had mine built, which was actually quite recent.

If / when I get to this situation, I would hope that I listen to the words I type here - sell it and move on to something else. Unless you are significantly attached to the car, consider it as 5 years of fun for less than $13,000. I would guess that 99.9% of all new cars would depreciate by more than that amount in the same time, and you had the enjoyment of a 911. At the end of the day, you have a car. Sure its a Porsche and its a 911 and yada yada yada. This is a 996 forum, so a lot hear are fully invested in to the 996 specifically. I don't possess a fanboy outlook like others do, so I don't view our cars as the ultimate. I also don't view a 20 year old (relatively modern) car with 155,000 miles as something that will have stratospheric price appreciation (like what you might have seen from your years in the E type community). So I say sell it and move on, or at the least, as others say go in for a full and complete rebuild (or replacement) of the engine. Merely my two cents jb

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I agree. Why is everyone condemning this engine? I think the OP needs to find a different mechanic who will do an actual diagnosis instead of spreading FUD.

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Fair, but what would the OP replace this car with? I doubt anything for $25k that will deliver a similar experience? That�s the problem: what other sports car in this price range (roller+engine build) will be a suitable replacement?

I agree with others to get a second opinion on both the diagnosis on the engine condition and the cost of repair. Seems that not only are 996 prices on the rise but also labor/repair costs. Doesn't anybody use "book" time anymore? 10 hrs will get you the engine/trans power unit out and back in, and another 10 hrs will get you a LOT of work on the engine while it's out. 20 hrs even at $150hr is only 3K, then what ever parts need re-newing. Many are advocating the "all or nothing" approach or the "parts replacer " approach, hope I'm not the only one who thinks there are competent Techs capable of doing quality diagnosis and repair. Also remember as a customer you can "scare" a Technician into not wanting to take any responsibility for your 155k mile engine by the things you say/ask. They will then recommend a path that will lessen or eliminate "their" responsibility, ie a replacement engine backed by Warranty.ect. A Technicians job is not only to fix the car, but to satisfy the customers concerns. Personally if I thought the engine was in basic good health, just needed vario-cam pads, chains, and possible actuators I would be willing to spend 5-6K to see how many miles it would go before catastrophic failure occurs.

I was hit with about the same situation and went for the full rebuild that fixed most, if not all, of the original design issues (not FSI). All 911s have had problems and they’re expensive to maintain and fix. They are, after all, $90,000 cars, we will all be underwater it’s just a matter of how much. Recommend you rebuild engine if you are going to keep it more than 8-10 years, otherwise cut your losses now at $2-3,000.

Don't be fooled the cost of a rebuild will be well over $20K, and may be upwards to $30K if you like to add a few nice upgrades. The reason I know is that I am rebuilding a 997, and my original hope was to keep it under $20K. If I can get out with spending less than $30K I will be happy. Many folks are fooled when they see engine rebuilds for $20K. Yes, you can get a rebuild engine for $20K not installed, but when the engine is out you will need to replace parts. Porsche parts are expensive, for example an air injection pump now cost close to $1K.

What shop did you take it to? Chris' German and Cantrell Motorsports both have experience rebuilding M96 engines. They would be good people to consult if you haven't already. I'm local, feel free to PM if you don't want to say publicly who you went to.

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I went to Akers in Seattle.

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This is not necessarily true...

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U guys In the area get him some good refferences for a second opinion.

[QUOTE=De Jeeper;17318689]At that number u would have a cel light. Some reader use a crank angle instead of a cam angle. Mine does this and u have to devide the numbers by 2. That would even be an 8.5 and that would probably give u a cel too. See if another shop or that shop to rescan and take a pic if the screen. U should be able to see both banks and that helps. Mine before my work. Curious why divide by 2 if scanner reads at crank?

�it sounded like one of my chain tensioners was going bad and that it would cost about $2,200 to fix it.� ^^^ WHAT?� I would have ended the convo right there and found another shop (or bought all three tensioners for around $500 and installed them myself)�