Blackstone Oil Analysis

I had an oil analysis run on my C4S recently. I was wondering if any of you had any thoughts on the write up I received. I haven't driven it very hard (I've had it since 2011) but I know the PO had it on a track a few times. I think he sent me a picture of it at Laguna Seca. I had Porsche do the last oil change -- my recollection was that it was a 0W40 weight Mobil1 oil but I wasn't sure. That's what I put into it when I changed it. -Eric

It's one report. Looks fine. This is your baseline. Keep doing them. Consider a "better" oil in the future. Some comps from this week: https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...-analysis.html

A few years ago, I asked Allan Caldwell, at the time Panorama magazine's top tech expert, what the Porsche factory considered to be "an acceptable range" of values for the major components of commercial oil analysis. He reponded with a lengthy scholarly article about oil viscosity, mineral analysis, etc., that appeared in Panorama in the fall, 2010 (I think). Bottom line? Porsche is/was unwilling to go on record about this issue...wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole (except to reiterate their oil usage and changing schedules). relinuca

Aluminum, iron and copper are all more than double what my acceptable levels are even in a 5K mile service interval. These are characteristic with camshaft/ lifter wear and the associated secondary wear that is catalyzed by this when the oil becomes material laden and bypasses the OEM oil filter at start up. We usually see iron become elevated first, them aluminum, lead and then copper as this is the composition of the main and rod bearings. Blackstone doesn't know this, because they are not engine developers. Copper= worn bearings, as there is no other copper within the engine's composition. Without TBN or TAN values its hard to say how much corrosive wear that the materials could have been seeing on top of mechanical wear. A good illustration of this with forum members engine (symptomless other then the UOA elevations) last year is here: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...4914693&type=3 Here is your aluminum, lead, tin and copper, from Mike's engine.

Aren't the valve guides a copper alloy (bronze)?

How did you collect the oil sample for the analysis? If you used the oil from the filter housing this has a concentration of whatever metals the engine has shed and the ppms numbers can be biased towards the high side.

Worn valve guides in these engines show up in our UOA as manganese. The only deviation to this is the 1997 Boxster engines that used a higher silicon/ bronze level in their composition over manganese than all other M96 engines we have noted to date. The engine I referenced above had perfect valve guides upon disassembly. Seeing the aluminum levels higher right along with the copper and the fact that iron is higher than both of them, follows a trait that we have witnessed several times. That said, I'd do another UOA and use someone other than Blackstone.

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Thanks for the feedback everyone! These may sound like stupid questions but is this additional wear that's typically caused by driving style? Is there something preventative that I could be doing to decrease the level of wear these levels might be indicating? As for bypassing the oil filter, it might be useful to note that when I pulled the sump pan after draining the oil I did not find any noticeable debris in the pan. I followed Blackstone's instructions for capturing the oil. After removing the oil plug from the pan I tried to capture the draining oil mid-stream directly in the clear container they provided for the analysis. I did not use oil directly from the filter housing. I don't know if it makes a difference but the car was sitting (in storage) for 4 months before I changed the oil. Is there any reason I should be concerned with Blackstone? I've always heard they were very reputable; which is why I used them in the first place. This is actually the first time I've sent out oil from one of my cars for analysis. I'm open to other recommendations...or are you just recommending that I get an analysis that includes TBN or TAN values? -Eric

Based on what you posted I'd bet this engine is seeing elevated oil temperatures. I can tell this from some of the values in the UOA results. I'd not ever use a service for UOA that does not give TBN or TAN levels, from my standpoint thats what we look at most to gauge both the wear metals, but also the possibilities of corrosive wear and how well the oil is holding up at a given service interval. All of our oil goes back to the lab where it was formulated, at Lubrizol. In previous times we were most impressed with Stavely, but I haven't used them in several years. I have never seen a Blackstone report that was objective enough, they like to put glitter on top of everything, even on samples that were sent in from engines that had already failed. I guess they figure since people can't handle the truth theres no use in telling them how it really is, or they really don't know.

If I recall correctly you can order TBN and TAN for a little extra. Not knowing better I didn't order it. Regardless of who I use in the future, I will order it if needed. For what it's worth the car SEEMS to run well. Oil pressure, at least from the OEM gauge, seems to be okay. Is there anything else i should be doing or looking out for from your perspective? -Eric

All you can do is run a short service interval at 3K and do another UOA and watch for elevations. The engine I linked above was totally symptomless and had no warning signs at all. The car was owned by the original purchaser and he started seeing elevated UOA that was increasing, so we went invasive, found worn lifters, bypassed oil that was material laden and then we went deeper and found worn bearings. The car ran the way it always had previously.

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Jake, you have posted some great info in this thread. Thank you. Can you expand on your statement above? What exactly are you seeing, that allows you to reach this conclusion? Is it many item in totality or a few specific values? My guess is the low shear viscositiy at 210. Thanks.

All in all, interesting. 1) Without a dedicated oil temperature gauge, how does one know if they are getting elevated oil temperatures on a stock vehicle? 2) If the only way to do this is to add a sensor, where can a source be easily tapped? This question has been asked many times, but never seems to be satisfactorily answered.

Might be time for a coolant flush, new water pump, low temp stat, clean the radiators, check for even the smallest coolant leaks, etc etc. That's way too much metal regardless of who's standard you use.....

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I got a new water pump last year. I'm hoping it came with new fluid. I haven't found any evidence of a leak anywhere. The front end radiators probably need a good cleaning though. It should reach 30K miles in the next few months and while I've changed the brake fluid and oil more frequently based on age (rather than mileage -- as did the prior owner from what I could tell), I've been told that the 30K mile maintenance check-up is fairly comprehensive. -Eric

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If the water pump was changed at the dealer the old fluid was captured and reused, unless you or whoever had the work done specified new coolant be used. Get those radiators cleaned pronto. If they have not been cleaned in a while I believe the best course would be to have the bumper cover removed and the condensers unbolted and moved away some to give better access so all the trash/dirt can be removed. Then afterwards every so often have the trash blown out when you have the car serviced.

Come on...really? I never would have known that. I've changed a water pump or two before and it never crossed my mind to re-use the old stuff. I guess I should know better when it comes to dealers. I'll have to check the receipt since I don't recall the itemization but the work was done by a local Porsche dealer. The radiators do deserve a bumper-off cleaning. I've been meaning to do it for a while. I just have to find the time to do it. I'm assuming removing the bumpers is a relatively painless process...hopefully? Is it the kind of thing that should take a couple of hours for a first timer? Thanks for all of the great feedback everyone! -Eric

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there is an easy technique for doing this... you can determine oil temp by watchiing your oil pressure: @ normal temp (needle strait and slightly to the right) you should be getting 4 BAR pressure @ 3000 rpm if your engine temp is hotter then you won't get a full 4 BAR on 3000 rpm maybe 3.7 or so... (3.7 is still ok @ 3000 rpm - you are safe) on the track the rule I use is that if I see the pressure drop to 3 bar when I'm driving in a strait away and my rpm is 3000 rpm I engage in a few cool down laps and then see what the pressure has gone up to... I usually find this does the trick as I have GT3 rad and hgh speed cooling fans enabled... 50 weight oil will give you much better pressure at the track than a 40 weight oil... I would NEVER use a 40 weight oil tracking as the heat things it out and your compromise oil pressure. so next time your out for a drive do the 3000 rpm test and see where your pressure is at...

Its a band aid for running a 40 grade oil that has a proper viscosity index that can maintain film strength at higher temperatures and loads. I have found in exhaustive research that 50 grade oils reduce output and increase coolant temperatures simultaneously. Thats just me and results may vary, but I don't go to a 50 grade until I alter the internal clearances of the engine for specific track application. That said, even our Grand Am engines (none of which have ever failed) still run XP9 which is a true 40 grade oil. If using M1 the reason why you have to go to a 50 grade is because the oils all perform like a 40 grade at temperature, because they were never, ever developed to run over 212F. When we want to perform severe duty testing of any internally lubricated component, or an entire engine, thats the only time that I'll even consider running M1.

I hear what you're saying and many just don't have the time or luxury to keep switching back and forth between a dedicated track and street oil This is where a 50 weight oil shows some value providing you keep the change intervals short. Also a 50 weight oil like m1 or castrol or motul will flow better when hot because these 996 cars do run on the warm side at the track ... At those temps I would imagine there is little hp loss.

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I have a 2006 caymanS with an M97 engine, with only 32,000 km (19,880 miles) and I found metal flakes in the oil filter. Check these two vids to see how much. I had the oil analysis done but have no idea how to read this sheet and can't find anything useful online. Oil was changed a little over a year ago and was used for about 4,000 miles (best guess) We checked the oil pan and found no debri. Tomorrow we will scope the cylinders. I just need to know which part of the engine is deteriorating? Yes I have the large internal IMS bearing. Is it time for an engine rebuild or replacement? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

Sorry to say but it looks serious. Way too much iron and aluminum. The vids are not shown. Any pics of the debris. Ferrous or not? I've attached an UOA of a failed engine that had its IMSB falling apart. Cringely was the owner and I bought the roller from him and currently rebuilding the engine. I sent a sample to Blackstone for an UOA just out of curiosity to see how the UOA looks on the oil. https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...wn-engine.html

The videos should work now. I was able to pick up some flakes with a magnet

Mario, I wonder what oil was in there? Because it's not Mobil 1. And it's not a 0W40 weight.

Your engine has low miles. My thinking is it's quite salvageable if you disassemble it to locate the source of the debris. If you keep driving it, you may risk more damage and more expensive repair.

Btw, any tapping or knockng noise when idling?

The Anti- wear package looks exactly like Canadian flavor M1 to me. Its text book. That said, the viscosity is too high at 100C, which can mean a few things. The data on this one is not that bad. Yes, it is elevated some, but the values are not excruciating. Plus, you sent this to Blackstone, which never gets my vote. I would drive 2K on a current oil service, then send the samples to ALS or Caterpillar for true data, which includes TAN and TBN values. I would not tear anything down for values at these levels.

Jake, even with the ferrous debris in post #23?

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Yes, those are the end windings of a valve spring. Thats not what the UOA picked up, remember, any UOA will not pick up anything 30 micron or larger unless a particulate test is carried out.

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That's intereting to know. OP, I think you may want to add a magnetic drain plug.

And a Spin On Filter Adaptor

Joe Gibbs driven DT40 5w40 and absulotly no taping or knocking noise. Engine ran perfect to me.

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Thanks for your post, it's greatly appreciated but I don't know if it's because I'm French or new to the Porsche language but are you saying you think the engine is ok and these metal flakes are coming from valve springs and not the IMS bearing? Did you look at the videos and the metal debris? So let's say I install a drain plug & spin on filter adapter and drive it another 2k, what can I expect to find? Best case, worst case. I also have a DOF direct oil injector and Since the transmission is out, would you install that? I even wonder if that DOF really works http://tunersmotorsports.com/trs-dev...rect-oil-feed/

Hello fellow MRer; ) go out and get this http://lnengineering.com/products/other-watercooled-stuff/oil-change-bundle-configurable.html that will filter ALL the oil and will catch those metal flakes. change the oil, run it for 2-3k km and send in that sample to one of the labs Jake (Flat 6 innovations) mentioned as their data will give you more info. post up the results then and then the pros here can discect those numbers.

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Hey buddy, how's that rebuild engine running? Have you driven the car yet?

a woppin 12km!

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Now I really do t believe this is your sample... If it is, then throw away what I said previously as the anti wear package is being eaten by something internal. DT 40 should have at least 1175 ppm Zn, and closer to 1200 at minimum. The phosphorus is also low, indicating more degradation of the anti wear package. We see this happen with mechanical wear, and I pay more attention to it than the wear metal levels. That said, the Zn and P of these samples are closer to what we see from Canadian M1. The viscosity at 100C is higher than normal for DT40. Lake Speed and I will review the sample and I'll post later. No one knows what a DT40 sample should look like more than Lake. Stand by.

^Jake, I took Mario's comment to mean he's running DT40 now. Not what was drained.

I just sent out my first round of DT40 in the engine for analysis, thought I would post it here based on Jake's input above for information.

And Mario's for comparison:

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Looks great, but I can see some cross pollination from another oil. Did you perform a flush with BR first? The cinestoke levels are spot on, wear metals look good, and the anti wear package is intact. Lexvan, I had my head up my ***... It was too early for me, had a late night date with a 996TT engine. Now that he's swapped oils, the next samples will be skewed completely. I recommend a short service interval, and another round of DT4 before even worrying about gathering another sample.

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Mario's Cayman is at my shop now. I removed the oil pan and found nothing in it. I then cleaned out the oil filter canister and poured in fresh oil, ran the car and drove it for a few miles. Then dumped the oil and ran it through a screen.. no particles but the oil in the canister had a nice silvery hue to it.. CAT has a major parts depot near me and does do oil testing.

Was their any copper colored hue to that oil? Hypothetically speaking, what if you guys could buy oil, and it came with n oil sample bottle, and a free used oil analysis, with a real description of the sample, by someone that has a clue? Stand by.

No copper hue. No knocking from the engine or loss of oil psi.

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All you can do is drive it, and get more data.

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Jake: You are spot on. I bought the car in Reno, NV and had them perform an oil changes with Mobil 1 before I picked it up, then I drove it for those 2,500 miles and then went to the DT40, did not perform a flush with BR. I'm at 42K miles and loving the car!

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Cool.. Thats text book. Performing the flush helps with cross pollination more than anything.

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Count me in!

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I would use this and not feel like a tool for sending the oil in. Currently, I do not do UOA because (a) it seems kind of hysterical/paranoid, and (b) every UOA I've ever seen posted on the Internet has a variation of the same vapid "your car looks amazing and should be on the road for another 200 years" text. UOA has always seemed kind of foreign and weird, like a grandmother asking when the last time your bowels moved...but I could get used to it if it was part of the oil package and not an ala cart item I have to convince myself to purchase.

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agreed on the temps and slightly reduced power output - I recently switched to AMSOIL 10W40 AMO (HTHS of 4.3) and put 7.5 hours of track time on it... engine felt awesome... waiting for blackstone results to assess wear still on the fence about flow at track session temps on a hot day... if coolant is @ 100C then oil is 120C = 248F and a theoretically a 50 oil would flow well and provide best protection... don't really know though... next oil I will try is the Redline 5W40 - HTHS of 4.3 and slightly higher viscocity index but I do expect to amsoil 10w40 to perofrm... lets wait for the results...

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It takes years and hundreds of samples from different engines to know whats good, or not. Different engines, have different characteristics, so the values that are "normal" will vary. UOA is foreign, as you can see here, there's more to a sample than the wear metals. In fact, I look at everything else first, then I use the wear metals to back up my beliefs.

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That would be awesome!

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I know a guy.... But, he's an *******.

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That's one of the reasons I don't see much value - if the person reading the results can't offer any expertise, I SURE as hell won't have any idea what the numbers mean...so doing it repeatedly and looking for variance would be the only semi-useful thing I'd be able to do.

A team has been assembled, and The Knowledge Gruppe has grown. In a couple of weeks you'll see whats been taking shape for over two years. Its a hell of a lot bigger than some used oil analysis. I get to sit back and watch it. Can't wait!

Waaaaait a sec...is this why KrazyK has been so quiet lately? I keed. I keed.

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Thanks a lot for your help Jake!!! Everyone! I just came back from a morning meeting to read this. I'll gather data no problem. At the track. I'm getting the Mantis oil kit installed. That DOF thing and probably the better Porsche AOS.

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Mario saw value in UOA and because of it saved his engine!... look at Mario's sample and you can clearly see elevated metals!! this is the sign you are looking for to know you have a timebomb on your hands...

^ Right - but when Jake first looked at those values, he said "I would not tear anything down for values at these levels." Elevated levels are going to mean exactly s**t to someone like me who does not understand what all of the internals are made of.

actually go back to page 1 of this thread... post #4 - symptom-less car with elevated metals in UOA - which needed a teardown to keep it going and doing it sooner was cost effective rather than waiting until later... the #'s make sense - I think using Mario's example as a baseline here will guide us into a proper decision vs not doing UOA at all... think about it this way... if your not doing UOA how do you know you don't have a problem?

UOA is just another tool. There are some failures that it will only find, and some failures that it will never find. You can't judge an engine by one UOA, trend data is the key from that particular engine, over a period of time. This is why I start a UOA program for all my engines from the first oil thats drained, and watch it at every step of the way, for as long as possible. I have 30-40 samples from some engines.

To be fair to everyone here, what you guys need to know is I bought that car a month ago without having it inspected. I was in a hurry to get it, I was dumb, naive, it's a long story but the seller said he did all maintenance religiously. The day I pick up the car, he said he didn't have time to do an oil change so I have to do it. Ok I said, I mean the car has what, less then 20,000 on it. A week later, I do the oil change, find these metal flakes in the oil filter and all hell breaks loose. From that moment on, he can't recall when he did his last oil change. He can't remember a date, a month, a season, not even a year. Of course he won't talk to my lawyer. My guess is he used the Dt40 because that's what he sold me. Collecting fresh data is what I will do, but I still bought that car to lap it instead of my race car. Better news so far then rebuilding/replacing engine.

I hear that about 10 times a week.

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That's true - and I also am not having weekly colonoscopies, so I don't know that I don't have a butt problem...and I'm not having weekly blood tests, so I _could_ have contracted Zika unknowingly. I've made it to the ripe old age of 46 without analyzing oil from a single car...I think I'm going to let it ride and go a while longer.

I learned about UOA working with rotary wing aircraft. We pulled samples from 5 places on every engine, every 10 hours. Sometimes we'd get a call from maintenance admin saying "Go drop the motor out of 02 and send it to the engine shop"... BUT it ran perfectly fine, didn't flame out, the power management system wasn't doing funky things, and it was smooth. I tend to treat cars like they have wings, instead of wheels.

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agreed! just because your doing UOA doesn't mean you'll catch everything but if you don't do UOA and trending like you mention you are at a higher risk of not catching something that may be obvious in the UOA analysis... biggest one for me is to know when my oil has dropped out of it's grade due to heat cycling on the track because I do a lot of tracking... so the 100C centistoke value sheds a lot of light on that... a regular castrol 5W40 syntec oil is no good for more than 4-5 track hours !!! a 5w50 castrol is good for 10 hours MAX - I know guys running castrol 5W40 in their 991 GT3 RS for 20 hours .... it's because nobody has told them... there are people out there running on one oil change for the whole track season.... not good...

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that's right you may - now back to cars... it's your car and your $$$ - you accept the risks and no one else

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This is spot on!! I also pay more attention to TBN and TAN than the other values, but Blackstone only includes those for more money. You can't judge the sample without those values. People pop engines at the track all the time, because they are running the same old (junk) street oil on the track thats been in the engine for a few thousand miles. The oil is dead before they arrive at the track, and they get a 20,000 dollar surprise later. This is what kills these engines... Assumption, and a lack of situational awareness, coupled to plain old common sense. Nobody has that anymore, because their keyboard can't help them with it. Watching cinestoke levels, and adjusting services based upon visq is the way we have primarily came up with ur own service intervals, and our own flavors of oil.

So what's the best oil for track use?

Holding breath...I don't wanna post...I don't wanna post...I don't wanna post...breath Look, if your racing your car and testing oils..great get a UOA and see what the values are, go from there. Got it, you're after performance and reliability. If your an engine rebuilder/constructor - I totally get it. The knowledge derived is helpful. But, I'm never going to pay for a UOA. I drive my car and love it. It will die some day. Everything does. Every mechanical part wears out. But all this seems to really take the joy out of owning a terrific car. I'd rather drive my car, enjoy every minute of it, than fret over a oil change, UOA, waiting for results and wondering if I'm sitting on a "timebomb". They all are, eventually. It's a car, not a passenger jet airliner. I may get flamed over this but I'm not loosing sleep over it. Done.

I like the UOA because it allows for a trend over time, more of a hobby than anything else. I also figure when I sell the car if I have one for each oil change, it's going to allow the next owner to sleep better at night, if the values are good. I am in the nuclear power industry, and trending data is part of life. I just sell them stuff, so I want to do my own trending!

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XP9 is what I was recommended for this specific engine. It only has a life of about 750 miles but I use a 55 micron 5 gal bucket filter to reuse it or DT40 when switching back and forth. I think you are actually right on point. There are many different ways to experience a 996. DD, DE, Weekend Toy, or wrenching hobby. For me, it's all about learning as much as I can through working on them, getting dyno's, looking at UOA etc. I think it's awesome when someone can spot the type of motor oil used simply by looking at one of these. I don't think they are required to have a good car and a good experience.

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Yup. If I am paying for UOA and I learn that some part of my engine is being eaten and I get talked into a $20K rebuild because it's been run with material-laden oil, yada yada, how is this substantially different than my engine just quitting one day and needing a $20K rebuild? Maybe I'd get a little advance notice, but it seems that many just continue driving it because they don't want to pay for a rebuild before it becomes essential. I'm sure that those miles between "probably has a problem" and "screw it, I'll finally do the rebuild now" would be carefree and enjoyable...

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This stuff? http://http://lnengineering.com/joe-...12-quarts.html But why is it only good for 750 miles? You filter it and reuse it!? I've never heard of anything like that. Why would it not be good after 2,000 miles?

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Because it's a racing oil. Completely different chemistry and detergent package.

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Sounds overkill for a lapping car with slicks.

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750 miles is somewhere around 10-12 hours of track time or specifically 416 laps at my local track. That's a lot of stress on an engine unless you are keeping the RPMs down and oil temps below 240F.

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Yeah if its a dedicated track car. Totally agree. In my case, I'll put all these miles daily driving it and driving it twice a month at the track for either a full day, about 3 hours on track or an evening, about an hour on track. It's hard to think that you have to calculate regular driving within these 750 miles. I don't mind paying for the best oil but if you can't drive 1,500 miles before an oil change, it seems excessive.

Hence the swapping of oils. It was just part of my routine when I changed the tires and brake pads. Filtering it into a 5 gal bucket for storage is really easy with the 55 micron one from Amazon that sits right on the bucket. It may be overkill, but it's I how was recommended to extend the life of my engine the longest. FYI, I use breakleen to clean everything and then let it dry real good. Not sure if that's the correct way or not though.

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The dispersant package in this oil is aggressive. Its a true race oil thats made for limited use, under very adverse operating conditions. There's no such thing as overkill with oil in these engines, they kill oil fast. 95% of every failure that we see on the track comes from oil that has had it's anti- wear package depleted, and has lost viscosity from thermal breakdown.

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For someone like you Save your $$$. Save it for the rebuild... Cause it's a lot more $$$ to fix a blown engine than one that is running.

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*shrug* Ultimately, everyone here should do whatever they derive the most enjoyment and peace of mind from; if it's UOA, more power to you.

I just received 6 samples analysis back today.. Thats 6 more engines (last month's builds) that have my name on them, that I know are going to be just fine. This is based on the UOA results. One of them does look like it has a leaky injector, though... But they were replaced. Damn junk parts! I don't sleep much at all, but when I get these results back, I definitely sleep better.

:thumbsup;

Analysis of the oil used by the PO of my white C2.

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So what wrong with my engine?? Since last time, I ran the car for 1,200 miles on DT40 5W40. From that 6.5 hours were on the race track shifting at the redline. So what's the deal with this high silicon? I changed the air filter to a K&N. I do live on a dirt road and have to drive half a mile to get to my house from the main road. Besides the filter I installed a Mantis deep sump, the big air oil separator and a DOF. Here's the new sheet Here's the old sheet The magnetic plug was clean I have no idea what this does, but looks clean to me I wish I could say I did not find any metal in the oil filter but that's not the case. Here are pics, you can zoom in a lot Jake flat6 innovations I'm dying to hear what you have to say

^well, go back to to a stock OE Porsche engine air filter.

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Yes I could.

Can we rule out the IMS bearing? Is it made of aluminum, probably not, but is it made of steel? What part is creating these metal flakes in the oil filter?

FYI, DT40 was never meant for the track. It is only rated up to 240F. XP9 is the preferred track day oil and is good for about 750miles between changes.

Did you drop your oil pan recently? Too much liquid gasket could account for the silicon content.

That's quite a bit of metal dust on the drain plug for only 1,900 miles. Also it looks like there are plastic dust/particles on the seams of the filter. Hard to tell from the photo but can you try to scrape the seams and see if any black stuff comes up? The stock IMSB is made of steel but the IMSB paddle is made of aluminum. Looks like something is shedding metal and plastic to me.

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Yes, Oil pan was replaced by a Mantis deep sump

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Here's what's on my finger after rubbing one seam. And here is the worst seam I found with black in it How can plastic get in there?

WAY too much sealant used on the sump plate install so I think Slakker nailed it. The excessive sealant inside the pan can come off and block the oil pickup screen inside the sump The plastic is likely from the chain pads. I hope Jake will chime in soon.

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This is absolutely correct! That said, Blackstone will never learn how to provide the proper commentary for these engines it seems. The silicon came from the resealing of the sump plate, RTV traces show up as silicon in these oil samples... That said, you used WAY too much on your sealing surfaces. I can tell which builder assembled engines here as one always starts with a 40 silicon PPM count, another at 40, and usually I'm at 25 on the first sample after 200 miles. I have a good guess where the iron is coming from, and it isn;t related to the silicon counts. That said, something is killing the anti- wear package of the oil. The 918ppm on Zn should be at least 1200. I know that oil temp has not killed the oil, since the cinestoke level at 100C is still very good. I'd blame aeration for this, the smart guys in the room will know why, and agree. That said, buy your oil from www.rndeuroparts.com from now on and get a FREE used oil sample, and it comes from my group, with Lake Speed of Driven oils offering all commentary.. No reason to see these generic UOAs being posted anymore!

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Did the Mantis come with an X51 baffle?

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Whether it did or not.... That's not where the aeration would be rooted..

Bad AOS?

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So what am I looking for this morning to find this aeration problem? I've not driven this car a lot so, so I'm not familiar with the engine sounds except that it does whistle a lot. Where do I start looking? You can see the new AOS in this pic So where is this iron and aluminum coming from? Sure hope the smart people in this room will come forward and agree Can / should I still run this car?!

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Jake, I've never seen a single UOA posted of DT40 with a zinc of 1,200. Best I've seen is about 1,090.

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Agreed, the best I have seen is 1118, with an average around 1040

Was the deep sump installed correctly with extended oil pickup tube? The problem here you have is your burning oil at 1 quart per 750 miles. That's a lot - That means the damage is done. - you need a rebuild. Did you check your oil level while at the track? How much oil are you burning between sessions?

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I'm not burning oil, at all. The oil level is at 3/4 when cold and shows full when hot. I didn't burn any oil at the track Please note that it's 1,900 KM not miles. In miles it's 1,180. (The Blackstone sheet is wrong, the oil change before this one was at 34,000KM and not 32,000KM and this one was done at 35,860 km)

Mario, I don't know what the numbers mean, and if it means anything....I've heard your engine and it sounds pretty healthy to me.

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The lab doing the test, means everything.

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I can't tell there's anything wrong by the sound or oil consumption. I just wish I knew where this metal and black derby found in the oil filter is coming from? And why high levels of aluminum and iron in oil test

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I've just bought XP9 form your place/ friends and I will get a free oil test. Thanks for that but I wish I could send them this oil sample now so we can get to the bottom of this, but I was not able to find that service on the RND site. I just want to know what's wrong with my engine.

The leading cause of this, no matter the oil thats used, has been aeration.

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So the problem is in the AOS or new deep sump?

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Neither, BUT the AOS could be working over time to contend with the root of the aeration issue. Maybe someone will figure it out. Lots of smart guys here!

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the black material could be coming from timing/IMS chain pads

Ok sorry I thought you were burning oil Dt40 has no place on the track that's for sure - from others who have shared UOA with me and who have changed to a better oil suited for track their metals have really dropped Even in really tight motors dt40 has shown horrible UOA after track use You can try amsoil 10w40 AMO premium. Great stuff - give it a shot and do another UOA

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That problem existed when I bought the car 2 months ago. We found the same Debry in the oil filter and the aluminum and iron was high back then too.

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We never developed DT40 for the track. Its a long life street oil with a superior additive package. "Really Tight" engines are the WORST on the track, tight running clearances shear oil faster than anything. We don't build "tight engines" for the track. The XP series of oils are what should be used on the track, and its been that way since the very beginning of the Driven/ Flat 6/ LN collaborative relationship. That said, even when I have a customer screw up, (or not listen) and take one of my engines to the track on DT40, the results don't look anything like that Mario1 posted. I see several issues with that oil, and I see the same things when oil is aerated, and film strength is compromised due to this. Aerated oil offers little to no boundary layer protection, which is what cams, lifters, timing chains/ sprockets and cylinders/ pistons need most to resist wear. Mario1, send the UOA results to me, with a summary and Lake Speed and I will try to work on it together. Email to [email removed]

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Thanks. That XP9 is hard to get here in Canada. I'll look up the amsoil to see if I have more luck

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Thanks Jake, I will send it this afternoon. I have to take care of a promise I made to my son right now. Lol

That wasn't my definition of tight engine - I should have said engines that don't burn oil and are broken in - that is what I meant Curious to see what the diagnosis is here given deep sump pan and airatiion are the issues...

What else could cause aeration? Mario do you have any other bolt ons like an accusump, direct oil feed IMS or anything like that?

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My somewhat educated guess is thermal degradation of the oil. This is the primary cause of aeration - and is leading to a majority of the out of whack levels in the UOA. Run a different oil that can take the heat, or better yet control oil temps and you'll solve the root cause. Am I close?

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No. The cinestoke level at 100C is still very good for this oil. If the oil was thermally broken down, the viscosity at 100C would be trashed.

Don't tell me it's a missing o-ring inside the oil pick-up tube haha

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Jake, you are always saying you need to make better use of your vendor account here. I think what you listed above deserves it's own thread. It just may bring guys to try DT-40 as the free oil sample would be enough to get those off the fence. Once you figure in the oil sample being done by an actual professional that knows these motors or knows what to look for, coupled to free shipping, would make it a more compelling case for some I would think.

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I'm now thinking it's something silly like that...or that the oil pickup tube isn't properly extended into the new sump?

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I met Lake Speed Jr. at LN Engineering last fall at a local PCA tech session. He gave a presentation on oil. I never learned so much in 1.5 hours (or forgot so much over the next few days). I will be purchasing it from them for this service.

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You mean this stuff is super good for the race track? Serious

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In time, the group running that store site is still getting the details worked out with order fulfillment and etc. They'll end up being sponsors of Rennlist, too. I only am contracted through The Knowledge Gruppe to provide tech support, oil analysis commentary and to provide tech articles and videos to them. We are also making up the kits of part numbers for all sorts of things that they can carry as DIY assemblies.

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Yes. Good in my car for 7.5 track hours. Best UOA I've had to date.... I've used a lot of other good oils but this is what I'm running now. After 7.5 hours I save it and run it in my daily drivers because it still has a high TBN and lasts a long time... This is there 25,000 mile oil (or 1 year - whichever comes first). But in the track - Dump it after 7.5 hrs because it turns into a 30 weight beyond that time...

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That's great to know, so after 7.5 hours of track, regardless of how many miles of daily driving?

No more than 5000 km total. If you do 7.5 hrs and are under 5K you can still drive it on street until you reach that mileage... Street driving is nowhere near as hard on the car and oil as tracking is. But 5K max for me as you want the oil to be in good shape always so you preserve internal seals

So, would the AMO Premium be superior to the European Car Formula 5W-40 Improved ESP Synthetic Motor Oil for track use? The AMO Premium doesn't carry the Porsche A40 approval, seems more a diesel oil, like Rotela?

Well I think it is. It's their best oil and has an HTHS of 4.3 which is a lot higher than their euro formula (also a good oil) - ratings aside let's not turn this into another oil thread - I contacted Amsoil before using this and let them know my application and they said it would be excellent t - and so far according to my UOA it is. As for the Porsche rating/spec you mention Mobil 0w40 has this ... Would I track with the Mobil?? No way. Worst UOA I've ever had is with Mobil 5w50. 0w40 was horrible as well. This is why people keep losing engines on the track - Mobil ain't good enough for that application. - it's great in my moms corolla - lol

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This is the point people that argue for using Mobile1 miss. The data simply doesn't support using it if you know how to read the data. It's a thin oil formulated to improve gas mileage. The EPA loves it, 10+ year old engines not so much.

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This is a much better compromise than XP9 750 miles (1,100 km). I mean to get to and back from my local track I drive 400 km

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FYI, almost all true race oils are rated for under 1000 miles. Did you figure out if you have a direct oil feed for your IMS? I read somewhere that it could potentially be a cause of aeration.

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This morning I'm thinking maybe it's a combination of my motor is a tight motor (never heard that before) and second, I'm a race car driver, meaning at the track, even though I'm running RS3 tires right now, I'm using every bit of power that underpowered engine as to offer and I'm about 10 seconds from my best times in the race car on a completly stock suspension and street tires, so I guess it's no joy ride for that engine. It was also hot on a couple of track days, but never did I let the water temp go over 200F. I did run it though at 200F. Could this problem, my problem, finding high levels of aluminum, iron and plastics, be due only to having a tight engine and not using the right oil (DT40) and combine with the extreme track use of every once of power that under powered engine has to offer? I'm thinking maybe it has nothing to do with aeration? I did blow up 3 Subaru boxer engine in the past racing an STI. The last one was all forged and ****, and it blew up faster than the first 2. The engine builder never saw that before either. Most guys who bring their cars at the track are lapers, and slow as ****. No way they can hurt an engine. They drive their Porsche (or Vettes) like my aunts.

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Yes I did installed a Direct Oil Feeder at the same time has the deep sump. What's the story on that?

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I have one on the track car I recently purchased so that's why it's of concern to me as well. Let's see if Jake will chime in on whether that could be causing it but I'm starting to think it is.

My thoughts on this subject must stay in my head. I'm sure each of you appreciate this, and understand why.

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Crap, I was afraid of that. That means the DOF is most likely causing the aeration. Anyone know how hard they are to uninstall? Mine is right above the sway bar and it already annoys the heck out of me having to pull the sway bar anytime I want to lower the engine.

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A lot of guys who tow their cars use dedicated race oil - so there is an option for you

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If you're going to try Amsoil, go with the 15/50 Dominator Racing Oil.

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Will it still offer me 7.5 hours of track time up until 5,000 km of daily driving? Why is it better?

Why not stay with XP9 and get free engine issue diagnosis from Jake? The diagnosis itself is worth more than the price of the oil.

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That's my plan. I just bought from him the XP9. We're just talking. I'm educating myself about oils. Jake has been great help. He's a good man. He's the man!

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The 15w50 is a thick oil - I've used it for several fills and it's good for about 12 hours of track time providing you don't have fuel dilution (as determined by UOA) and even after 12 hours of track time is still within spec for the 3.4 h6. Cst@100 > 14 You can use this as a daily for 5000k intervals but the reason I switched to 10w40 is the car ran faster as the hydraulics within the Variocam run on oil and too thick of an oil will make them come into play later than sooner - car also runs cooler with a 40 weight oil and I've confirmed that as Jake has pointed out many times - if you live down south where ambient temps are in the 90s during track days then yes dominator may be an option but the combined protection and HP that the AMO 40 give is a better option but only good for 7.5 hrs. - which incidentally is twice as long as some other 5w40 based oils like castrol

Since the DOF is creating this aeration problem, I'm just afraid that the oil (DT40) I have now in the car is no longer good after only 700km (434 miles). And I do have an hour of track time on that oil too. Should I change the oil now, should I be worried or I'm overthinking this? It should take a week or two before I have the DOF uninstall.

Your ok as long as you stay away from the track... That's not a lot of time in the oil. But once you get rid of DOF use a different oil for track

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Won't the high zinc content kill my Cats?

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It would if the car was Asian, and not German... I've never seen a German cat killed from Zinc content. In development I have ran some oils as much as 2700PPM Zn and never had a cat, or O2 sensor foul.

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Lol. I asked my local performance shop to see if he could get it. He calls me right back thinking I'm a retard to want to put that in my Porsche. I start explaining that no, it's a common thing I hear that guys use this stuff at the track for Porsche but I soon ran out of arguments. LOL He's my friend and does not want me to do something stupid. But if Jake says it's OK, than it's OK. I just want to have a UOA sheet to compares both XP9 and that crazy old school Amsoil stuff.

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... and talking about O2 sensors, I just had a P0421 check engine code with my car after a 200km ride and even though I erased it, it's coming back. Yes I have an after market exhaust, TUBI Style.

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You can't make that comparison without running each oil for 2-3 services, then flushing between oils.. Else you'll end up with cross pollination that seriously impacts the results. Often the first UOA after changing oils is horrible, unless a flush oil, and flush period are utilized.

I would have zero issues with the XP9 if I could drive it at least 2,000km before changing it or what ever comes first, 6.5 hours of track

My amsoil rep told me the zinc may harm the cats but I'm glad Jake chimed in here re the quality of German cats Curious what oil your friend recommended if he thinks amsoil ain't good enough? The AMO is rated for 25,000 miles - regular use. I'd like to see other oils that can achieve that service interval - I mean for track your dumping it @ 7.5 hrs - but the quality is high - I'm doing another track weekend -3 days and should reach the 7.5 HR mark again - the last amsoil UOA was excellent - let's see how the next one is - and it's gonna be hot up here -32c ambient

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He recommended another Amsoil made for European cars, but he sells car parts and is no oil expert. He actually said that it is yet to be proven to him that using one oil is the reason why An engine blew up and not the other!! Lol Ok Mike (He knows my history of blowing up engines) Nobody never asked for that oil before to track their car, he said it was an old formula. That's it

I know that amsoil oil - it's the 5w40 - also a good oil but the HTHS value and TBN are lower than the premium AMO. I've never used it for track but it's an excellent street oil - you could track with it but don't k i.e. How long it would last.

Just to be clear, Jake designed and built my 4.0 to use a 15/50 oil. Based on its current power output, I am not worried about getting a couple extra HP running a 10/40.

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Cool! That's a bonus for you. For the rest of us on a stock motor a 40 is advised and Jake doesn't recommend a 50 - u can use it but there are caveats- it will be thick on your first couple of heat cycles but will shear down to a 40 eventually. The dominator takes much more heat to degrade than say a castrol 5w50 After all my UOA on the 3.4 I think a 40 is the way to go - the only one I haven't tried is redline 5w40 - apparently it's a thicker 40 - thicker than all the 40s ....

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And yours isn't the only one.. We alter internal clearances and this can necessitate a higher viscosity oil for hardcore track use.

And it works!

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Thats all that matters!

First oil change on my 996 last weekend, just got my Blackstone report back so I though it appropriate to contribute to this thread. Report's attached - I have no idea what the numbers mean, so all opinions welcome! Last oil change, done by the previous owner, was just under six months ago and, having gone over the paperwork, probably nearer 4,000 miles than the 5,500 I initially thought. I'd also left the viscosity blank on the form as, while I know the PO used Mobil1, I didn't think to ask the viscosity he'd used. 0W40 maybe? Car is now running on DT40; my next purchase will be from RNDeuroparts, with the UOA thrown in. Next oil change will be in 5,000 miles or six months, whichever comes first.

Oh I wished my sheet looked like yours JimmyB. Congrats on new car.

^^ +1. It looks really clean.

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Mike at no limits? He doesnt know porsches liek Jake does so I would take Jake's recommendation over Mike's everyday. Mike's a really great guy but he doesnt know pcars like Jake does. He told me the exact same thing when I went there to pick up my joe gibbs break in oil. "Why are you running this in your porsche?"

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But..... Jake is an *******, and Mike isn't.

you don't know Mike lol

OK, here's my latest Blackstone report. Next one will be through RND but I already had these sample kits. 3 different columns. Far right is when I bought the car and took a sample of the oil while changing to XP9. Middle column is XP9 after 1 AutoX. The high silicon is from dropping the sump to clean and check for debris. I also changed the filter to the spin on adapter at this time (changed filter only, not oil). The left most column is after 2.5 hours of track time at Motorsports Ranch on a 97F degree day. I expected the oil to hold up well but was still pretty impressed with the results. I also thought it was interesting that the iron content dropped after switching to the spin on filter.

Last two UOA's. I have a decent amount XP9 stocked up so I will continue to use Blackstone until it's gone since RND Euro won't sell the UOA without buying oil from them. I'm not sure the mileage is correct but there was 6 hours on the first and 7.5 hours on the second. The engine was running hotter on the first one due to the tire wall causing issues with the radiator ducting and the oil temps were running around 240. This seemed to wear through the additives quicker. The 2nd analysis had the ducting fixed. I'm running water with water wetter and the oil temp typically doesn't show over 215.

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That one is sucking up the additive package badly, but with the TBN off the chart too, it looks like our friends at Blacksto e may have their calibration set up from a prior version of XP9. i have never seen XP9 with that low of TBN, or such low anti- wear package. If the calibration is correct, this engine has something sucking the life out of the oil. Oil temp of 215 on track? Don't believe it! Where is the sensor located and what instrument are you using?

I thought the TBN looked low. The first test was from what came in it. July and October tests were all on the same oil and then it was changed. Oil temp is as reported by my AIM dash which is tapped into the stock sensor. I've verified it with the Durametric but I know there is debate as to it's accuracy.... Ok, went back and reviewed the data. Oil temp low 240s late October, 230s mid November, high 220's late November. Water temp went from high 190s with air flow issue to 170s when fixed. Running center radiator and no condenser or fans. When letting the engine cool down, after cool down lap, I let it sit until oil temp is the same as water temp, usually around 200F. Not sure if this is right but don't really want the water getting much hotter.

you running a K&N air filter?

I have a B&M but can't remember if it's on this car or not. Why do you ask?

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Because your silicone is very high. Signs of poor filtration.

Interesting. The original 5 silicone had an Evoms kit on it. The 23 was shortly after dropping the sump. But I would have expected the last one to have gone down as the oil had been changed once since dropping the sump and the oil filter 4 times.

This is is my first UOA. It was included with the case of DT40 from RND Euro. ALS Tribology performed the UOA. My car had about 74,500 miles on her when I sent in this sample. The oil was 9 months old and had 5257 miles on it.

Hello, 63k miles on my 02 C4S. I bought the car 7 months ago and have logged over 16k miles. Original IMS bearing. Going to update my IMS when I do the clutch or before another year and a half. Any comments on my UOA would be appreciated.

USNA1970, looks great. Way to drive it. Nice. Keep enjoying. Notice how the wear metals dropped like a rock under your care, driving style, and maintenance regiment. That's what you want to see.

Thanks LexVan, When I got the car, I had no idea when the last oil change was. The car had a carfax with 47 entries and showed that the clutch was done at 38k miles. The dealer said that the IMSB was fine and didn't not change it. Looks like maintenance was maintained pretty well by the PO. However, it looks like oil changes were done closer to the Porsche recommended interval. From my report you can see that I changed the oil 5 times in 7 months. I think I will start doing 3 oil changes a year and continue to get UOAs. That will put me at about 6-7k miles per oil change. However, I am adding about 1 qt of oil every 1200 miles. Although I am not happy that I use that much oil, it does keep the oil a little fresher. I also make sure that the oil is at the top of the fill line at all times. I check it every few days manually. I always check the dash meter before starting. I used Mobil 1 0w40 for first two oil changes, then I went to redline 0w-40 for one change and now I am settled on Motul 5w40 for last two oil changes. I will probably stay with Motul for a while as it is almost half the price of Redline. Plus, my UOA reports might be easier to follow if I don't keep changing oil brands etc. lol As far as driving. I keep the revs under 3500 for first 5-10 minutes of driving. I usually accelerate pretty hard on highway on ramps, although all my high revs are usually no more than 5500 rpm. Much of my driving is on the highway and I use 5th gear more than 6th gear depending on traffic. Basically I like to keep RPMs around 3k while cruising. When I am done driving I usually let the car idle for about 30-40 seconds before I shutdown. Lastly, I always inspect the oil filter and magnetic drain plug. I know that my IMSB could be perfect today and explode tomorrow. I guess I am just hopeful that what I am doing will allow it to last until time to replace clutch. That could be a long time as I am easy on the clutch. Feel free to comment on my driving style with respect to prolonging the life of the engine. I appreciate any advice.

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I agree with everything your wrote. While high, the 1 quart oil burn at 1,200 miles is well within Porsche's spec. Maybe this will drop with Motul (or other oils). Or maybe after other maintenance items are addressed, like the AOS (not suggesting it's the root cause). I'd suggest you keep doing 5,000 mile oil changes, and not stretch to 6-7K. Maybe after the IMSB upgrade and a few more UOA's.

Thanks. I'll keep the changes around 5k. That isn't too bad, 4 oil changes a year instead of 3. I don't see too much vacuum on my oil filler tube, so hopefully AOS is hanging in there. I'll get that changed when I do clutch as well. I do see sooty exhaust tips on left side. From what I read, that can be from a few different issues.

What's the average turn around time to get the reports back?

Send UPS ground. After they receive it, they can email the report within 3-4 days.

I usually get the report a day or two after they receive it.

Once Blackstone get the sample, its a few days. The biggest delay is 1st class US mail if you send it that way. For some reason it can vary from a few days to a few weeks to arrive

Hope I'm not hijacking the thread but it seems others have been posting results, so....I just got back my first UOA. In fairness, this oil only had about 2000kms on it, but did include a track day.

Not the numbers I was expecting. Aluminum is very high after 3800 mile oil change. No hard driving just commuting to work and keeping rpms around 3k. Looks like I'll be sending in a new sample at about 2500 miles. On a side note. a few of my spark plugs were a little loose during this oci. I guess I was afraid to torque them down too tight when I replaced them about two months ago. I doubt that would have much to do with aluminum being high. But maybe... Another side note, I took the sample from the oil filter canister. That is definitely not the best way to take a sample, but I wasn't changing the oil and figured it really should not skew the metal readings much. I obviously will take the next sample from the middle of the sump drain as to get the best sample possible.

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Yeah, that was not a good idea. This test result is almost useless. Alum looks very high, considering the low mileage on the interval and 3 quarts of make up oil.

yup, everything that was on the outside of the oil filter could have contaminated my sample. That was two and a half months of microscopic particles that may have gotten into my results. I guess it is worthless to worry about, just do it right next time. My magnetic drain plug was same as usual. Just some ferrous paste, almost so little you can't see it until you wipe it off with a paper towel. Oil filter also looked good. Nothing big enough to actually see with reading glasses. At least all the other numbers looked normal. I may switch back to Redline if my next few UOAs don't make me happy. Lol, oil war coming...

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I did run two gas tanks treated with chevron techron concentrate. I suppose there is a small change the cleaning action in the combustion chamber (pistons) could have raised my aluminum in my UOA. We'll see after another 2500 miles. Wont be adding anything to the oil or fuel system to rule that out.

Absolutely NOT the reason for the elevated AL level. This last test is meaningless due to your sampling method. Ignore it.

Oil filter cannister might be one of the dirtiest places you can take oil.

LOL... typo "postate" instead of postage in my subject... too much multitasking.... Anyway, here's my qeustion... Based on weight, a Blackstone analysis bottle that weighs in at just under 5oz should cost $2.85 to mail, so I put six first class stamps on the container... (shipping from FL to IL) Have any of you guys who've mailed in UOA to Blackstone used stamps like that? I am wondering if the shape of the container is cause of USPS to upcharge. I would go to the post office, but I have a conf call in 15 mins and was going to just let it go in tomorrow's mail pickup. EDIT: disregard... I called Blackstone and had a 5 minute conversation. They said six stamps will get the "old" sample kit there.... and that they are now sending out new sample kits which include prepaid postage and USPS tracking bar codes.

Here is my latest oil analysis from a month or so ago.....I almost cut part of my right hand index finger off getting the filter out of the Napa filter housing after cutting it open. Happy to say it's almost 100% normal again after getting about 5 stitches. The only thing that will keep me awake at night is the copper....it's trending up, but the sample has the most miles on it. And from re-reading this thread, two things jump out at me. Copper comes from the bearings.....and that Jake does not recommend Blackstone. I have to get another case of oil. So I guess I'll get it from RND with the oil sampling kit. And if anybody remembers, I have the noise after a cold start for just a few minutes if idling or if I drive away, it goes away immediately. Here is the thread for that: https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...old-start.html Paranoia will destroy you...... DT40 oil and the first analysis was a change from Mobil 1 to DT40 without doing a flush. You learn a lot from these analyses and that different oil actually reads different.

Here is my latest oil report. I did add Liqui-Moly Ceratec. Not sure if it helped my high aluminum numbers come down.

Here's my report from 3/20/2016 at 87k miles. And here's my report from 2/16/2017 at 88k miles.

Here's my first analysis report at 107k miles, 2002 C4S, interval was 8 months and 1600 miles. Looking for opinions from the experts, thanks!

Here is my latest from Blackstone.....my copper is slightly higher than others, but it does not have an adverse trend. So I'm back to sleeping well at night.

My latest Blackstone report, and then pics of metal and plastic we found in the sump yesterday. Metallic swirls also in the oil. Jake kindly responded to me privately and advised not to drive the car and that it is timing chain pieces. Latest Blackstone report Metallic swirls in the oil Metal and plastic in the sump

The metal doesn't look good but you're probably extremely lucky that you caught it at an early stage that the engine can be saved. I'm sure Jake can help you with that. Not to drive it for sure. The metallic swirl in oil sounds also very bad. It won't be detected by a regular UOA unfortunately due to the large size (visible). You will need to order the particle count to see the bad reading

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Good thing you checked the sump. What prompted you to look further than the good UOA? See how your SUS and cSt are at the bottm of the range with only 940 miles on the oil? That's why friends don't let friends drive on Mobil 0W40.

My car threw a CEL - P1341 (Camshaft adjustment, bank 1) last week so we decided to drop the sump. Cam deviation is 8 on bank 1 and 7.19 on bank 2. We did the IMSB two years ago with an LN Engineering retrofit so I know it is not that. I don't know enough about oil analysis to make any adverse statements but I wanted to post my good report vs. the metal that we found in the sump.

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Good news is the 40th/x51 is worth rebuilding. Bump it up to 3.8/4,.0 and you'll never look back.

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Sadly mine is just a millennium edition, not 40th. Thanks for the comments, I appreciate it as I go through a complete engine drop today. The metal bits in the sump are non-ferrous and the metal in the oil is ferrous. The pic of the oil isn't very good. In real life the oil has metallic glinting when you swirl it around in sunlight.

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Please keep us posted. Anything in the oil filter? The mileage is low and you may be able to get away with a partial rebuild... It's interesting the metal bits in the sump are non-ferrous. I would expect they are (timing chain/sprocket teeth) given how bad the chain pads are chewed up.

Forgot to cross-post here from my other thread. Not sure why my silicone is on the higher side. It was an 8 at the last oil change in August and I promptly changed the air filter in response to it. ALS claims this is within spec, though. Latest update with 83,454 miles on her. 3894 miles and 7 months on the oil. "All wear rates normal. Abrasive and other contaminant levels are acceptable. Viscosity within specified operating range." Metals (ppm) Iron (Fe) 4 Chromium (Cr) <1 Lead (Pb) <1 Copper (Cu) 3 Tin (Sn) <1 Aluminium (Al) 3 Nickel (Ni) <1 Silver (Ag) <1 Titanium (Ti) <1 Vanadium (V) <1 Contaminants (ppm) Silicon (Si) 10 Sodium (Na) 6 Potassium (K) <1 Additives (ppm) Magnesium (Mg) 11 Calcium (Ca) 2585 Barium (Ba) <1 Phosphorus (P) 1058 Zinc (Zn) 1248 Molybdenum (Mo) 109 Boron (B) 22 Contaminants Water (%) <0.05 Coolant No Physical Tests Viscosity (cSt 100C) 12.6 Physical / Chemical Base Number (mgKOH/g) 6.5

Quotes source post: 14904020

What oil are you running?

Quotes source post: 14904321

Looks like Gibbs DT40.

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Bingo

Not Blackstone, but here are my two reports: In between these two reports I had an IMS solution installed.

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Quotes source post: 14904020

In light of the thread bump, I figured I'd follow up on a prior post of mine. I did another analysis last month and the silicon was again around 10 or so. I then spoke with the person who ran the analysis at ALS Tribology and he stated that a warning sign for silicon would be of a value in the triple digits, or a large jump in value (i.e. from 10 to 60). He stated that my silicon levels were very low in his opinion and the trend of their reports on my engine show that the engine is "incredibly healthy" if I'm correctly remembering his statement. I know this is a Blackstone thread, but I've been very happy with ALS. I get their test kit at O'Reilly's for about $20. It is actually labeled as a Wix kit, but the paperwork inside contains the address and info for ALS. They also provide TBN results at no additional charge. TIFWIW.

Since this thread was brought back to life, thought I would share my reports. I am always curious on how others stack up so figured others were also. Note the following: 1st sample on 9/13/17 is when I switched from Mobil 1 to DT40 (no, I did not due a complete flush) 2nd sample on 11/11/17 at only 500 miles was pulled through dipstick (I wanted more of a control sample of the DT40) 3rd and 4th samples were normal oil changes (still DT40), I drove 3500 miles on 4th sample to be more in line with the universal averages. I typically change at 3000 miles. I always make a day of changing my oil checking other fluids, crankcase pressure check (for AOS, typ 4.5 - 4.9 in WC), tires, brakes, ect.. I dropped the sump pan during the 1st 9/13/17 (just to inspect) and installed a magnetic plug at that time. Still have OEM filter, find it easier to cut open and check filter. I also empty the oil filter into a clear glass jar to inspect oil within filter and use an endoscope through drain plug hole to check inside of sump. (guess I'm a bit ****)

Here is mine.... Interesting on the concern for an air filtration leak. I am using a BMC filter with the old style Fabspeed exhaust and intake (with the stock filter box). Installed LN filter conversion using NAPA filter at the previous oil change. Cut open filter and could not find any junk.

here is my report, iron, copper and aluminum seems high. what is the general consensus about this values?

You have to remember the mileage that you put on the oil. The particle count is going to be proportional to it, the longer the oil is in service, the higher the particle count. My copper always seems to be a little bit higher than others, it's closer to 7 or 8 PPM. Others are closer to 3 o 4....but once again, you have to take into account the miles on the oil. With your mileage I personally wouldn't worry about a thing....nothing seems to jump out at me....I'm no expert, but I do look at copper a lot.

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the mileage shown is actually KM. 155k km is about 90k miles. oil intervals are less than 5k miles.

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Did Blackstone provide a descriptive analysis? If not, you should reach out to them to get their opinion. In my humble (and very non-scientific) opinion, it appears that you�re trending in the wrong direction. But it�s also really hard to capture what �normal� is for your engine with only two analyses. You may find out that theses values plateau and remain approximately the same for every subsequent analysis.

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Are you running Driven DT-40? I�ve read that some modern oils shed silicon as part of the anti-foaming properties of the oil. It could also be from excess sealant that has somehow circulated through the engine. Change back to the stock filter and see what your next report shows.

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the report was good: " The metals are low and look great compared to universal averages and the previous report. You didn't see any visible metal in the filter and that's another good sign that all is well mechanically. There's no fuel or moisture present and the air and oil filters kept silicon and insolubles low. Excellent report."

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I�d say you shouldn�t worry too much and just continue to change the oil and do analyses every 6 months/5000 miles, whichever is sooner. That�s what I�d do.

Quotes source post: 10418710

When you see elevated manganese due to valve guide wear, approximately what PPM of material are we talking? 10/100/1000? Asking for a friend... 9A1 3.8 991 C2S. No octane boosters used. All other wear metals look good, 1.5% fuel dilution