996 - Will it Always be the Cheapest 911?

Do you think the 996 will remain the cheapest 911 for the foreseeable future? I honestly can�t see the value of any 911 made before or after the 996 dropping below it.

Yes, but that�s OK. It�s a little like being the worst musician in the New York Philharmonic.

My guess is that the air cooled cars will always command a premium. The 997 will probably remain more expensive by a small margin because it is a both a better car (due to continuous refinement of the product) and being slightly newer. There is no reason to expect the market to prefer an older model 996 over a somewhat newer 997, even if the price between the two were the same. The two models are too close to each other in design and features, plus the 997 is in no way an inferior car. That said, the 996 simply is the start of a new age for the 911 line and will likely be the best entry level vehicle for some time to come—maybe indefinitely—but who knows? It's certainly not a bad car and most of the gremlins have been fixed by past owners at this point. However, if you are looking for an investment, talk to a financial adviser. Any reputable mutual fund will serve you far better than just about any car you can buy at 996 prices.

Yes

I think nb 997.1 models will become cheaper than 996.2 wb models but still command a small premium over 996 nb, maybe with the exception of very early builds.

I could see basic 991 cars dropping to around the same price as a very nice nice 996 in the next decade or so. The 991 is a nice car, but they aren't particularly "special" and I'm pretty sure there were more of them produced than 996s.

A nicely spec’d 996 will cost you more than an equivalent 997. Simple supply and demand. This is why we see a 8,000 mile e30 m3 sell for $250,000 when most sell for $50,000. From a numbers standpoint they simply just aren’t enough around to satisfy the demand. In this case with the 996, future demand. Those ugly headlights are actually now becoming a selling point. IMS concerns? Who cares, just fix it. As time goes by the 997 isn’t aging well at all. It’s becoming the ugly duckling water cooled car.

I don't see 997 being as desirable as 996 long term.

I would think comparing the 996 to the 997 would be almost like comparing the 78-83 SCs to the 84-89 G's. They look very similar, but the later cars received some evolutionary updates, and thus the later cars command a higher value. I'd be shocked if the value of a 996 inflated above anything else in the 911 lineup. A 20+ year old 996 will cost you ~$2 - $5k per year in maintenance, and another ~$1k to insure/register. Then there's the uncomfortable truth that the 3.4 engine will someday without warning suffer from one of its numerous failure modes and will require a $20-$30k rebuild. The 996 is a crap investment, similar to how a ski boat is a crap investment. And I'm perfectly fine with that. I enjoy the hell out of my crap investments. With that said, I'd rather have a 996 in my garage than a 76-77 911 having to deal with California smog on a magnesium block engine. It blows me away how the 76-77 911's are still almost double the cost of a 996.

Im obviously a newbie owner, but I wonder if some of the air cooled cars value will atrophy based on the knowledge base dying off. You see it some with American vehicles. If you have an sbc or LS engine you can take it to basically any machine shop in the country. If you have a model A with a flathead, your options shrink dramatically. It scares people off from ownership. I have a 1943 MB that requires a stepped process for align honing. Pretty much nobody does it. So you are forced to just rifle through a bunch of caps and plastigauge them until you find a set that fit in some cases.

Probably not. But it all depends on how much we all whine about the 996 on RL. 😊 We do entirely too much of it... Good question though...

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Check out the Porsche 356 prices. Those are 55+ years old and cost a fortune.

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and 15 years ago you could get them for a song.

I love the comments about the headlights yet none of my friends who comment about the 996 actually know the 996 actually came with 2 different styles and variations within those styles. They just "KNOW" they don't like them cause that's what they were told to think. Speaking from personal experience, I'll proudly park any of my 996's next to my old 993S widebody which was sexy as hell (or any other 911 for that matter) and my 996's will hold their own.

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Well I didn't buy my 996 for a return on investment, unless you are considering smiles / gallon.

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Amen brother. Another year and another thread about 996 values.

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Supply is low, owners are old and market is pretty small, which all works for the 356. So many 911's out there and people tend to want fast ones and or cheap ones. Neither of those are air cooled which is driving up 996 / 997 prices up. Who would want to take out their middie in the summer when they could take out a 996 and have working AC and power? People are finally getting it (me) it's just taking some time is all. Seeing the same thing with my E30 M3's at the moment. So slow on the street. I never want to drive them. Which brings me back to the 356. I'll never own one because they are so damn slow. My sweet spot is 300 hp and 3000 lbs.

So if the questions is "Will it always?"; then I would say if they ever make an electric 911 I could see e911's with dead battery packs or whatever becoming pretty worthless.

yes it will

Right, I was thinking along those lines too. I sold one of my hot rods (a 1964 Galaxie) because I had too many cars that did the same thing. Settled on a 996 because I wanted something out of my norm and this was the 911 I could afford. But as I was looking at many different cars, C6 Z06, CTS-V, restomodded Tri-Five, Jaguar F type I gave a lot of thought to "Is a 300HP 911 going to be satisfactory?" For some of the earlier cars with even less power it would have been a hard no even if I could afford it. Ultimately I decided to take the plunge, but I think many others from my generation would ask the same questions. At least the american audience. Compared to when I was a kid in the 90s, power is nuts these days. Im not saying the older cars are going to plummet or anything, but I think their audience might shrink at the least.

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Couldn't agree more. Cars these days are all about the power.. pay attention to social media for one second and you will figure that out. Mo Powa Baby! Mo Powa Baby aint anything air cooled that's for sure. Does anyone track their air cooled 911 anymore either? People paying $180k for my old 993S isn't going to last forever. It can't can it, lol? What a crazy time to be alive and into cars.

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Not many air cooled 911s on the track for DEs last I looked in the PCA Chicago Region. Nor many 996 or 997 due to oil starvation/stability. A lot of Caymans and 991s. This will change with the UIDS. We will start to see 996/997s back on the track. But probably not 993/964s. Prices are now too high.

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What is UIDS? I see a LOADS of 996's at the track. VIR and Summit Point specifically and mostly with my BMW clubs. Next I would say it's GT3's and mostly 991 versions. TONS of Caymans for sure. That's likely where they older air cooled crowd went. As for tracking the 996, It's not a oil pan baffle and go for the oil starvation issue?

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Check the UIDS thread, it's been up for quite some time as they've been going through developments for oil starvation. It's one of the larger active threads, not sure how it could be missed.

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Been spending too much time in threads that have no clear answer or purpose. I checked out the first page and last page...a few in between. What a great product / innovation. Could someone give me the readers digest version. When is the UIDS v2.2 coming out and how much is it? Im looking forward to it.

Its a very complex topic. Bottom line is that the UIDS puts the oil in the proper place within your oil pan to mitigate the risk of oil pressure drops and oil starvation. This is critical on the track, as well as if you plan on whipping around curvy roads at high G's. The Oem system does not. I would highly recommend that you read Jason's thread on "Oil Pressure Instability" to understand the background to the issue and then read Skips thread on "Ultimate Integrated Dry Sump" or UIDS to understand the product solution. Stay the course as you read it so you don't jump to any conclusion. Everything becomes crystal clear by the end. Lastly, read Skips thread on the "Ultimate Air Oil Seperator" or UAOS. This product among many other advantages, allows you to run your oil level at "over-full" under high G's. In combination, the UAOS with the UIDS, provide an innovative oil system that is light years ahead of what Porsche developed. There is more to this story than what I summarized and more cooling solutions on the way, but it will give you a synopsis.

How long would RL last without the 996 membership? You fellas definitely draw. And how long would the 996 subforum last without the 996 value threads? 😳🤣 I suspect that if I do dip my toes into the 911 experience, it would most likely be a 996. But honestly, not because it would be my preferred 911. They definitely have the advantage on the "value-equation", even at the current CrAzY market, but I would still choose a newer generation if the price difference was to narrow enough. That's not meant as any kind of insult. I'd rather have a 997.2 than a 997.1 if that same price differentiation narrowed between them. ​​​

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Who cares about how long RL lasts? Seems like a dumb question. The subforum would last as people still post regarding technical and 996 specific issues. Many forums have seen huge decreases in activity because this is a boomer to millennial form of communication. Not everyone got a 996 because it's what they preferred. I couldn't make a deal on a 360 and had the itch for a manual car, 996's were cheap so figured it was worth a shot. The 997's I test drove were great and liked them equally, but the money saved was money earned in other investments. I honestly feel anyone who knocks on the 996 just hasn't driven one. The fact they're "cheap" should be a driving factor to own one.

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It was perhaps a poorly conveyed homage to the 996 being the specific Porsche 911 that most drives support for this forum.

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Well, even 380 hp at 3,000 lbs is slow by today's standards when looking at modern cars. Many of those faster cars are USA brands with four doors. World's changing. Don't even get started talking about some of the EVs.

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When I roll raced my "20k mint" 997 GT3 against my brothers stockish 996.2 (60 to 100) and we were neck and neck....I was like, nah ah. Can't be... Then we swapped cars to see what I was experiencing wasn't a fluke...it wasn't. About 6x over and over, same results. Yes, on a track, my GT3 would out rev it, out handle it, out brake it etc... but come on. My GT3 cost over $100 grand and his was $18,500. NECK AND NECK! Needless to say I sold my GT3 to Doug at SwitchCars for a song and dance (you're welcome Doug) and (3) 996's later here we are.... Drive it and you will be hooked. For me I will likely stay in my 996.1 Aero car lane but that's just me. To each his own. I found my sweet spot.

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Yeah, 60-100 is a sweet spot in the C-2, which is where you do most of your driving on the track. My C2 had bigger brakes and a better set-up than most 996 GT3/Turbos so I could out brake and corner, but they did get me on the longer straights from 100-145 with the HP. All part of the dance on the track.

Yeah probably but who cares? 996 will probably always represent the best 911 values and honestly before the spike in price one of the best price to driving experience values.

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Are you a Bdronsik clone? 🤣

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Haha no way. He likes em so much he sold all of his However, I know what I like and to be honest with you my 996 window is extremely narrow. Maybe it will open up over time but for now, I'm almost a one trick pony

I think the knowledge base of technicians who know how to work on the CIS and possibly even carburetors on the older cars will start to dry up. New techs perform all their diagnostics on a laptop or tablet. I think especially with the move to EVs, it may become hard to find a shop with the technical know-how, special tools (ie: 5 gas analyzer) in most of the country to work on these cars for less than stratospheric prices. 911SCs are already affordable but I think you could see them permanently become the cheapest 911. Also, most younger millennials and Gen Z aren't tinkerers so if they can't just drop it off at a shop and pay a relatively affordable price for repairs, it won't be for them. I think the OBD2 Motronic with a MAF sensor is technology that is easy for a lot of techs to work on for many years to come. Also, I think the growing demand for these cars is people like myself who are around 40 who have always wanted one but are just starting to be able to afford one.

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I disagree with this. There is nothing wrong with the 997�s aesthetics. It�s aging beautifully, IMO. The big difference to me is that the 996 was disliked by purists and is now on the upswing. 997s were never disliked by the masses.

Its always tough being the trail blazer. You always get the criticism. But as time passes you get the accolades. The 996 has gone from criticism to now getting the accolades. As it should.

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Huh. Didn't think 997 owners needed to defend their car's aesthetics. With the 996.1 bad press meant its beauty was hiding in plain sight. Is this the case for 997.1?

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I am a 996 owner. I used to own a 997. I love both cars.

I think once people start realizing the 996 is the bridge of pure analog and technology, it will start going up. You get the driving experience of the air cooled motors with all the feedback in the steering wheel, engine noises and just enough electronics but no driving nannys other than ABS and psm, but it doesn�t feel as sterile and �polished� as a 997. The 996 just feels more rough around the edges, but in a good way. Especially now that cars are all so polished feel so similar with all the electronics, it�s just a matter of time.

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I couldn't agree more. I was a non believer. Owned everything else but the 996 (Had a bigger budget I guess and never gave it serious consideration) then my brother wanted a 911 and all he could afford was a 996.2 c2 with 25k miles for $18. Needless to say when we picked up that car and I drove it around, that entire experience changed my perception. The 996 has always been a wonderful driver, now the body style is coming into it's own, creating a perfect storm of demand.

Projecting and predicting the future is a tough game for a reason. Who's to say a lot of cars won't end up being scrapped? With evs on the rise gasoline production and consumption will decline and so the economies of scale might make it astronomically expensive. With it priced into the stratosphere the rich will pick their cars carefully and a lot may end up melted down. There are also generational effects, younger people may not want all these cars, they don't have the same wants and values as old farts like us. A lot don't even care about driving, that plus population decline who will even want to own all these cars? I don't care too much about my 996 appreciating in value, although i do find it frustrating watching the current (last 2-4 years) of classic car bubble inflation pushing cars I'd like to own completely out of my reach. Some of the price inflation is insane...

Beyond the depreciation curve of newer models� probably yes as it is the first mass produced model and continues to be the most controversial of all 911s. Gone are the days of sub 20k 911s�ever.

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Hmm...not sure about the 997 as 'the ugly duckling', but I have both the 997 and 996. Love both cars, but to me, the 997 has the superior styling in my opinion. Just like I love the 996.1, way more than the .2...again, my personal taste.

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I agree, would have been in a 997.2 if the deal didn't fall through. Then picked up the 996.1 on a whim because the aero made it stand out and changed my perspective a bit. If anything the 996 is the ugly duckling just because it's different, but I've never had ill feelings on any aesthetics in the 911 world.

I come from the Jeep world. There is a similar effect I have observed with the Jeep YJ model. They are similar to the 996 in a couple ways, they are the first of the Jeeps that can be considered 'modern', they also are the only model with square headlights. They were very much maligned and lots of 'Jeep people' hated and still hate them. But, their values have been steadily increasing, and the square headlights (and the Jurassic park movies) have made them cool. A comparable YJ will match a later TJ (similar to a 997 as it returned to the traditional round lights) in price. I remember being able to pick up a YJ for 1/5th the price of a comparable shape TJ.... This is no longer the case..... Just a thought, as it mirrors the 996/997 comparisons in so many ways.

I'm sure this has been mentioned earlier, but are we only talking about water cooled cars? I feel like it is somewhat likely the 996 surpasses the early '80's 911's. Maaaybe not the turbo, but what about a standard 1982 911 SC is really more compelling than a base 996 C2? Almost everyone that dreamed of having the early 80's Porsche has one and the prices aren't that high relative to a 996, whereas us 30/40 somethings that are finally able to make the dream come true were eyeballing the 996.1 and 996.2 during our teens and early 20's. We're the ones likely to keep driving the market on these, and though I very much would like to own an air cooled Porsche as part of what eventually will be a collection of more than 1 car, the 996 (and specifically a 996.1) was my initial ownership target due to that being what I lusted over when I turned 16, it was the first Porsche I ever drove, and then on down the list it happened to fall into the budget I had once I was ready to take the plunge. I think there are others out there like me, and there will be more of us in the next 5-10 years. The 996 is a really compelling value proposition, and I think it will continue to be as it overtakes some pre 964 body types.

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I would be surprised if the 996 passes up the 1980�s N/A coupes. Stranger things have happened, though.

There is some very strange self-delusion goin on in this thread

I don�t think it�s likely, but I do think it�s possible.

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Greetings, traveller! You know, I have never travelled to your land but I have thought about this square-headlight jeep a lot lately - with regard to the 996. Very interesting to see you bring this up here. Thanks.

Yes. The M96 motor will always be a liability and hold prices down.

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I gotta respectfully disagree on this one. All the engines manufactured by Porsche have warts. Just so happens the 986/987/996/997 have the same warts. More importantly, there are more than sufficient solution to remove the warts. Just like the RMS was a huge wart in the early 2000s, there was a fix and nobody talks about it anymore. Just like the IMSB was a huge wart, there was a fix and it's become mainstream. Aos, oil starvation, etc. In 10 years, everything will end up like the RMS and the go-no-go tool. An after thought. The real issue is still borescoring, but all of us know what to do to prevent it. Same issue that inflicts all post 2000 engines compliments if the greenies.

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Look at the 991.1 GT3 versus 991.2 GT3 prices. The former's motor, even with Porsche's 100K, 10 year warranty on replaced engines, has not done much to help alleviate the stigma (regardless if it is valid or not).

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Yep, they all have issues. 991 and 992 "throw away" engine program is alive and well. One thing everyone needs to take into consideration is the technological mess we have with the new cars. The simplicity of the 996 is such that it isn't a techno box of confusion. All and I mean all of the issues have been defined and can be easily prevented with bolt on solutions. Unless you haven't taken car of your bores or you bought a car with borescoring, you got nothing to worry about as long as you properly service and maintain it. All we are waiting on are two more inventions that will be release soon. (1) UIDS and (2) LN Oil cooler. In contrast, we don't even know yet what the 991 and 992 will truly suffer from. And who the he'll knows what the eventual cost will be for all the solutions that will need to be developed. As such, they will follow the standard depreciation model that all 911s before them. Folks, the 996 has been there and done that. Every issue has been defined, every preventative solution has been discussed and has been manufactured or in the process of being manufactured now. Couldn't ask for a better situation. Hello!

I've been thinking about GC's point a lot lately. For a classic sports car up to, I dunno, let's say a 2013ish sports car, all you really needed for a home garage was a full set of tools, something to prop the car up with, and maybe an OBD2 computer. Keeping a car 2020 MY+ in the same timespan as we have between the "new" 996's and today - let's think about this more like keeping an ancient computer alive vs. keeping an ancient car alive. I agree - people will wish they had only bore problems.

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Mezger engine has signed into the chat: No. The M96 motor suffers from many ailments other than the IMSB failure and we all know it. Bore scoring as you mentioned, cylinder ovaling, cracked heads, D-chunking, chain guides, etc. We have to be honest here, the M96 was a disaster of a design. The 9A1 in the 997.2 was a solid design and will hold their values up well unlike the M96/97 motors which will always be the achilleas heal of the car. Think about how often we see grenaded motors here. They pop up all the time regularly.

9a1 engines are not immune to bore scoring, and since they are 5+ years newer than M96/97 engines, I think we need to wait a few more years before we know to what extent the issue might be.

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Thats a fair point, but you got to admit, they solved most of the issues. I think we all would take some bore scoring over the M96 catastrophic failures of the M96.

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Looks like you had a sour experience. Wanna talk about it? ​​​​​

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Nothing much to talk about. I sold mine 6ish years ago and got a turbo and never looked back. I never trusted the motor and always was a bit anxious when I started it up for the day. I broke even on the car and life has been good ever since!

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​​​​​​Great car! Most important thing is that you have the car you want. I have had 996.2 for 20 years and never had any problems with it on or off the track. We all swim out at far as we are comfortable. But no need to beat up the M96. You have no skin in the game. Nor any reason to participate in the thread unless you can add some value.

Notwithstanding how much criticism the M96/97 engines gets, is it safe to assume that engine design(s) has seen more actual driving miles than any other Porsche engine in history, just based on how many cars produced?

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GC excellent points made here. Glad to see the aftermarket adding more viable solutions. As values of M96 powered vehicles increase, I think any present or future owners will continue to be inclined to reinvest into their purchase.

Good info. I truly love my 996. Looking up UIDS now... Found it Want it: Ultimate Integrated Dry Sump UIDS v2.2

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OP literally asked an opinion based question, and I gave my honest opinion about why the 996 will always be the cheapest 911. I dont feel like I hit a foul ball here. Im not bashing the M96 so much as stating the rationale of where my opinion comes from.

I think the variable with these Porsche engines we give such little credence to is how inconsistently they are driven. Some of these things get passed 3-4x and only have 35,000 miles on them and nothing but issues when they're turned on. Some of them have 1-2 daily driven owners and over 100,000 miles and the owners come in here like "oh no I never changed my IMSB..." Something that gets parroted in this forum from time to time but is not repeated often enough is - the ailments of these cars seem to magically disappear when they are frequently driven hard.

Everyone keep thinking this. Keep trashing your 996. Keep not changing the oil. Keep blowing up the engines. Mine will soon be more vaulable than a 991 GT3. It's all a numbers game with 911. And always will be.

My 03 4s had 21k miles when purchased in 2019, only 8.5k in the prior 11 years. I've driven it hard for 36k miles in just under 3 years and it performs as designed, everytime! Why anyone would buy one and let it sit and sit and sit is beyond my understanding. When I add the 9k miles I've put on my 997.2, I have 45,000 miles of smiles in 3 years.....and they've both gone up in value, at least enough to cover all the expenses incurred to date.

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I'm with you on this.

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Yeah but for owners now it makes more financial sense to rebuild their engines so fortunately the 996 can live forever. A rebuilt engine in a weekend car means eternity. As soon enough, they will be retired from daily driving duties and track duty and become garage queens just like any other collectible classic car.

Hahaha, The failure rate has to be off the charts. Word has it that Porsche will be distributing comfort blankets and trophies to every M96 car owner just in case. 😂

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Mike is so damn right. There isn't a problem with the engine, there is a problem with lack of service and lack of due diligence when purchasing any Porsche. Sometimes it's beyond me that folks will choose to buy a car without a borescope, PPI and service records. And then wonder why the engine imploded from bore scoring after they bought it. ​​​​​​What the he'll are they thinking...

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Agreed. some dude just bought a 996 C4S on BAT for 51k, with 67k miles on it...I feel pretty good they never set eyes on it. https://bringatrailer.com/listing/20...carrera-4s-51/ I paid 10k less than that for my turbo 6 years ago with 50k miles on it...Strange times.

I would suspect that the vast majority of folks buying these cars sight unseen, without records, PPIs, scopes, etc. Probably don't have any problems. But it's the small percentage of folks that do have problems that we hear about it on RL, and then everything gets extrapolated. Any 911 is a piece of machinery with its quirks. And that machinery needs to be serviced. If it's not properly serviced it will begin to run into problems. It doesn't matter if it's a mezger or a M96. Sure, they are different engines and therefore they have different problems. But service matters. The 996 is now 20 years old and many that are turning over are on their 3-5th owner. Porsche did everybody a disservice on the 996 stating that the oil changes were every 15k miles. So what did a lot people do, they changed their oil every 15k miles. You show me a 996 with 60k miles and I will show you 4 oil changes over 20 years. See the problem. You wonder why there is bore scoring? Then you got the folks that have only had 4 oil changes in 20 years, never changed their water pump, aos, and then decide to try a DE day. We dont have an engine problem, we have a lack of service problem. But all of this has been extrapolated out to be everyday events. Hogwash.

I'm one of those folks who picked up a car off of BaT, sight unseen, and it's been a disaster from day one. It's not that I didn't know what I was getting into because I am a car guy and have been researching the 996 for about a year prior to purchase. I am not blaming the car, but rather the previous owner. I bought and paid for running and driving car, but got a roller that you can drive around the block until it gets fixed. It's been a struggle for two years until I finally figured out the engine was trash. Just my experience. Best,

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Yeah, as I said on your threads, i am still POed at the whole situation you had faced with your car. You had to deal with a seller that wasn't above board. But you are making lemon out of lemonades. Plus you are proving another option to folks, which is an option that many of us didn't think was available anymore. Keep plugging. The car is worth it.