997 C4 and C4S

My OPC says that these will only come as widebodies. Is this the case. Would be a shame. Spizz

Reading the test reports so far on the bog standard 997 "S" 2 wheel drive with the latest and greatest in electronic suspensions can't really see the need for a 997 C4 narrow or wide bodied [ ]

One of my colleagues is getting a 996 C4 (not C4s) on 1 September - so they appear still to be making them. In Scottish conditions, can tell you that C4 feels so much more planted in rain, snow and ice. If I lived somewhere drier - would have a C2. Here, C4 rules. Spizz

According to this week's Autocar, the C2 997 is 38mm wider than the 996, this is getting a bit wide-bodied itself.

***************************************************************************** Surely not at the legal speed limits weather conditions permitting of course

Presumably the 997 Turbo will have a wider body and a 'turbo look' C4 will follow. I've never been entirely convinced about the merits of 4wd on a sports car. If I lived somewhere with treacherous winters I would rather put my faith in the electronic driver aids and an appropriate set of winter tyres. Or, better still, l'd have a proper 4x4 for such conditions

I wasn't convinced by C4 until I tried it back to back with a C2. (I previously owned a Carrera 3.2 and had driven 964 ) Despite my prejudices, in the real world, it felt the better proposition. Haven't regretted it. Chacun a son gout as they say. Spizz

Whether or nor 4wd is necessary, if they decide to offer it only on the widebody cars, then this is down to market forces. Blame all the people who bought C4S's over the regular C4. Once the 996 C4S came out, regular C4 sales dwindled. There just isn't the demand to justify producing both variants. 4wd on the turbo cars is not just safety, if helps to get the power on the road, since 560-620 Nm is quite a lot of torque. Although in the dry the Carrera GT makes do with just the rears and has more torque (but wider tyres). The rear drive only GT2 struggles when it is not dry. In the real world, 4wd is quicker and more secure. On the non-turbo cars, I am not convinced (after 22K miles in the C4S). I can't make up my mind - I think I would prefer rwd.

I bought a Carrera 2 recently, and have gained the impression that C4's & Tiptronics do probably depreciate more heavily, as their 'used' values are not much higher than the 'e ntry level' C2 manual car. I thought that people bought C4S's because they liked the 'wide-body' look - otherwise why pay the extra for a 'sports-car' that is heavier and less aerodynamically efficient? Or are they trying to give the impresion of owning Turbos? I agree with the Hamster's (Richard Hammond, that is) assertion that the C2 is the better car, on a 'bang-for-buck' basis, as the the C4 is more expensive, but not necessarily more fun! Predicating the purchase of a C4 on the grounds of more useability in adverse weather seems a little absurd, given the amount of effort that many owners appear to go to keeping their cars dry. Personally, I still think that the two-wheel drive car has superior steering, one of only two real advantages of the rear-engine architecture. The other being, traction., of course. Perhaps the C2 should have the wide-body!

I've always worked on the assumption that the perfect 996 is a manual C2 Coupe. Thereafter it is down to personal preference. If you want an open top, go for targa or cab. If you want auto, go for tiptronic. If you want 4wd, go for a C4. If you want a semi-track car, go for a GT3. If you want a more aggressive look, go for a C4S. If you want more performance, go for a Turbo. If you want your 911 with all the bells and whistles, go for a 996 Turbo Cab with power upgrade and tiptronic! None of this necessarily makes a better car (afterall, with 911s, less is often more), but it enables all tastes to be accomodated. And, as Porsche want to sell more cars, they have to appeal to a wide audience.

...aren't we lucky to be fans of a car that allows this variety of choice? Spizz

Regarding premiums for C4 used, I would say there is a small premium, but it's a little hard to tell - one thing that is clear is that they are much rarer in the 1999 range where I was looking. I guess it's regarded used as another option (but one that can't be retrofitted). If you find someone that really wants 4WD then they will pay a bit extra, otherwise not. I was keen to get a C4 if I could because it had to be my only car and I thought it would help with the 'I can't go out because the weather's bad' effect. I really don't know about the relative merits of the two.

One thing that strikes me as odd in this exchange of opinions on C4 versus C2, is that, unless I am mistaken, no-one has raised the issue of the greatly reduced boot space of C4's against C2's. Another thing that may help offset any downside of not having a 4WD capability, is the PMS facility. I, for one, would like to hear any relevant comments on this point. SGLB

Steve, When the 996 C4 was introduced (about a year after the 996 C2), the contemporary road tests and reviews concluded that it was a safer handling car than the C2. Some people wrongly assumed that this was because it had 4-wd. In fact, it was the newly introduced Porsche Stability Management (PSM) that made the difference. This then became an option on the C2. It is PSM that makes the 996 more secure not 4-wd. Of course, for someone like you Steve, who has clearly driven at Le Mans and the Targa Florio, PMS is for whimps and you would drive flat out in all conditions with PMS permanently switched off. And, yes you can get a lot more pheasants in the front of a C2.

Oliver, I think you and Steve are actually agreeing[ ] I read Steve's post (above) as meaning the PSM may help overcome to some extent, the disadvantage of not having all 4 wheels driven.

I find this thread interesting & would like to chuck my two pennies worth into the pot..for what its' worth, having owned C2's & 4's ! C4- negatives.. . slightly heavier, more wear & tear on front tyres/brakes, smaller boot, price. pluses ........ extra weight over front makes the car feel more tied down & balanced, cornering traction improves as the front wheels pull you round for an even faster exit, particularly in the wet, less understeer at the limit. Because of the price difference vs extra benefits, if I was buying new I would go for a C2, but as the prices are MUCH closer second hand the C4 makes a lot of sense as it comes with PSM as standard & extra traction can only be good !!! C4S The C4s is a slightly different animal, it comes with wider track & tyres of the Turbo, the same 10mm lowered sports chasis as the Turbo & the larger 330mm all round disc brakes. The combination of the wider track, sports chassis & improved braking plus the 4 wheel drive traction more than compensate for the extra weight involved & it is considerably faster & more "chuckable" than a standard C2 point to point. Add the wide body looks & you can see why it's offered the best residuals of the current 911 range (first GT3 aside) & why it has taken over from the standard C4. The standard C2 is a great car (particularly when specified with the sports chassis) but so is the C4S, which is probably an even more rewarding drive. I currently have a TT, this definitely needs the 4wd. The overall point I am making is they are all great cars & it's all down to personal choice, a C2 certainly isn't the poor relation, but neither should you believe that the C4S is simply all marketing hype, it's one hell of a drivers car !!!

I had always seen the roof top box as a whole family solution?

To put them in you mean?[ ]

Wouldn't that be nice - Would trade a bit of performance for a quite ride on a country road anyday - could easily ignore muffled thumps by winding windows down, or turning stereo up!!!

Hello Oliver, I much appreciate your very well informed reply to my query. The technical element of your answer was just the thing I was looking for. Insofar, as your inside knowledge of my racing capabilities and numerous wins are concerned, I can see that I am going to have to fire Max Clifford,since although I am not averse to the odd bit of favourable publicity ( such as my being seen in very fashionable nightclubs with quality totty on each arm ), I did tell Clifford that in order to avoid making my fellow PCGB members a tad jealous, I was very anxious to use my racing nom de plume when carrying off all those cups and medals. Insofar as the quantity of pheasant that I can pack into my C2's boot, I have no wish to be thought to be a tad snooty, but who shoots pheasant when there are grouse to be had ! Ciao, Steve.

I thought the C4S was slower than the standard because of the extra weight? It always seemed to me along with all the other extras a bit of power would have been nice ...

Weight, and the greater CDa (bigger cross-sectional area presented to the front) means there is a bigger area to push through the air.

Re C4S - Didn't Jeremy Clarkson say "It's just made to look like a Turbo. And would you like to see my fake Rolex...." Spizz

Clarkson's criticsm of the 911 is that people talk about it as if it is just one car but there are infact several variants and countless permutations.

The C4 will only really take bags for you and the wife for the weekend. So you need to get a babysitter and leave the kids behind. Whether this is a good or a bad thing, I leave to you...

But am I the only person who thinks that you probably only need the extra security of knowing you have extra traction because you feel 'less connected' to the road outside? To illustrate what I mean, I used to commute on a sports bike, and would pass the same motorcycles most days. However, on damp or cold days, they often passed me. Whereas I could tell that the road was more slippery, because the bike was more vague and less responsive to my inputs, the guy on a 300 kilo BMW sailed past, totally oblivious to how near the limits he really was. Either that, or it was Carl Fogarty on his way to work! It is the sublime steering feel that makes the 911 unique (among other things, obviously), and the C2 is nearly as good as the pre-power-steering cars in this respect. The C4 just feels wooden, by comparison. Still, the C4 steering is still a million miles better than any front engined car!! Tried an M3? Does the extra track and tyre-width on a C4S put back some of the steering sensitivity? Should I be saving my pennies?

Interesting perspective. Perhaps I am not discerning enough to be able to tell the difference - but round a bend the C4 feels every bit as sensitive to me as a C2. Where I notice the additional security is in a straight line on a wet , greasy or icy road. Spizz

Having owned a C2 and C4 I must agree with the last comment. I have found its very difficult to differentiate between the two in regular driving with good weather conditions. I'm not into track days,(if you think you're a racer go racing not posing) so don't know how they compare. Where I have also found the huge difference is in poor weather conditions. My C4 is not used a my principal car although I used it during last winters snow and ice to discover how it performed. Simply it was brillant. Of course you still can't take any ridiculous liberties but driving sensibly I've never felt so secure and unstressed. My conclusion is that there is a time and place for all models, Tim

Mid Jan this year we moved into a new house. Late Jan there was a small blizzard that dropped 3-4 inches of snow in a few hours. After spending 3 hours getting home (normally 45-50 mins) I rolled gratefully onto the new driveway in the day-to-day car (then a BMW 5). Next morning, after several attempts I miserably failed to get the 5 off again. The new driveway has a steep section, about 4 feet long and 30 degrees or so. Every time the rear wheels met it, the 5 started to go sideways until they were level again. Nothing would get that car off. Went back inside, phoned in to say I wouldn't be at work that day & to cancel the meeting. They phone back, the meeting is too important and too urgent, and don't I have a 4 wheel drive thing in the garage? Tried again with the 5. Nothing doing. C4S drove off (slowly) in one go without any complaints. OK, it's not why Porsche fit the thing with 4WD, but it impressed me!

Occurred to me - perhaps mine is more responsive as 30mm lowered suspension and spacers. I just love the feel - which seems a perfect compromise - secure but edgy enough. Spizz

One of the main reasons I ordered a C4s is because I live in an area where the "Gritter Man" does not go, and i'm glad to hear that snowy drives are doable - p.s. The trick with BM's and snow is to put two large bags of sand in the boot - Works a treat, and actually is a ritual for me every year. The first time I see a gritter, out come the bags... In fact i'm very nearly at the point where I do what the Swiss do, and put winter tyres on for half the year!!!!

We'd been in the house for a week at that stage, and sat there watching as all our new neighbours opened their garage, took out a nice big bag of sand, spread it liberally on their drive, and set off. 24 hours later, there was a nice big bag of sand sitting in our garage as well! Watch, and learn, as they say! And she started demanding an X5, but that's a different story....

If you live somewhere that suffers severe winters and you intend to use your 911 (whatever variant, C2 or C4) the key requirement is 'winter' tyres. In Europe, drivers routinely change their wheels/tyres between winter and summer and every year Christophorus carries an article on the subject with the various approved tyre options. Even big 'off-roaders' struggle, when the snow and ice come, if they are on normal road tyres.

I'm not sure an X5 would be any better!!

My OPC says that a number of customers have ordered both - a 997S for now and a 997 C4S for when it comes out. Spizz