964 RS and Turbo - Page 2 - Porsche General - PistonHeads UK

Thinking of swapping my 968, for a 964. Now I not sure about putting 30kplus into an RS. However i noticed some of the turbo's have come down a little in recent years. I got a couple of questions and would appreciate any advice you can offer. 1. Is there a website with lots of advice on the 964 turbo/ 965? just general info, on things to look for, spec, etc. 2. What kind of money do high quality 964 replica's get? If you took the lightweight route, added the cage, did the power. How much less are we looking compared to the real thing? I am of course assuming that this has been done. My experiance with the 968 is that you can make a coupe into an amazing handling car by using modern equipment, one which outdoes the cs. 3. There was a picture on the wheels page with the 964 rs with orange wheels and sticker set. Does anyone have any more photos. That is absolutely stunning, it really swayed me away from getting a modern car. Very impressed with that. 4. Turbo or an RS replica??? Thanks guys

I find http://forums.rennlist.com/ helpful, it's mainly Americans so the prices they quote aren't in line with what we pay for stuff over here, but there is a lot of useful info in there. With regards to which car to choose I guess your just going to have to drive both, the turbo for me is the clear favourite as you have almost no limit to what power you can squeeze out of it depending on how deep your pockets are, the RS will cost less to maintain and will probably do everything you want it to, you are just going to have to drive both first, if you drive a standard turbo don't be put off by the lag, that is soon rectified with a modern ball race turbo and a new exhaust, throw in some head work etc and you'll soon have 450+ bhp. What are you going to do with the car?

Anybody??

In short, both are great cars. If you are going to spend a reasonable amount of time on the track then get the RS. If not get the Turbo. Both will but a bloody big smile on your face. Go and drive at least one of each, or get someone to take you for a spin. If you have any specific Turbo questions let me know.

Not many decent reps about, all depends what they've done to it, just a set of springs & bucket seats do not an RS rep make, obviously worth a lot less & less desireable & smaller target market, but all depends on spec condition etc etc, but I'd perhaps point to a mileage/condition like for like diference of maybe £10-15k dif LHD, £20k+ for RHD

The though has often crossed my mind - 964 C2 to 964 RS. Check my car in my profile. 964C2 - LHD - Cat by pass, G pipe, air filter - remapped to 300bhp by 9M and upgraded suspension. It still has a long way to go and will never have a real RS badge. The other major things different to an RS is a Cage, RS flywheel and lightening the load. I may be wrong, there may be more differences........... Oh and mine cost £14k - so I have a bit of money left to spend towards the £30k of an good RS. Tom

[quote=964Tom I may be wrong, there may be more differences........... [/quote] + magnesium wheels, LSD, difernt gear ratios, steel syncros, hard engine mounts, no power steering (LHD lwt) monoball top mounts, big brakes, front hubs, spring plates, front & rear bumpers, no sunroof, no rear wiper, no underseal, no headlight washers, no rear seats, lightweight loom, harder suspension bushes, lightweight glass, lightweight bonnet, wind up windows, etc.

Ahh OK yes there is But is it £16k worth???? Tom

As someone who's moved from NA 3.2 to 965, I'd advise: If you like driving quick off the mark, working with revs and chuckability go for the RS. If you want more comfort, those wide arches, and WARP speeds go turbo- but you'd better have a clean licence as it won't take long before you start adding points!

estimate £2 Million One of only two Strassenversion examples built by Porsche Motorsport with a fully trimmed interior; among the most bespoke Porsche Exclusive commissions ever made https://www.elferspot.com/en/car/porsche-964-carre...

They could have at least washed it since 2017 (or recommissioned it …) https://www.whichcar.com.au/news/barn-find-porsche...

lewistintin said: Thinking of swapping my 968, for a 964. Now I not sure about putting 30kplus into an RS. However i noticed some of the turbo's have come down a little in recent years. I got a couple of questions and would appreciate any advice you can offer. 1. Is there a website with lots of advice on the 964 turbo/ 965? just general info, on things to look for, spec, etc. 2. What kind of money do high quality 964 replica's get? If you took the lightweight route, added the cage, did the power. How much less are we looking compared to the real thing? I am of course assuming that this has been done. My experiance with the 968 is that you can make a coupe into an amazing handling car by using modern equipment, one which outdoes the cs. 3. There was a picture on the wheels page with the 964 rs with orange wheels and sticker set. Does anyone have any more photos. That is absolutely stunning, it really swayed me away from getting a modern car. Very impressed with that. 4. Turbo or an RS replica??? Thanks guys 30k for a 964RS…crystal ball and all that

hmg said: 30k for a 964RS crystal ball and all that Haha, you are correct. One thing it does show is that many people covet the car of the moment, but no way near as many actually want to live with the driving experience. As ever, the Carrera is the car that suits the vast majority, with its much better road manners. If you want to have an investment piece now, buy the 964RS. If you wish to drive the car regularly, buy a sorted carrera and modify it to replicate the RS.

Jones the cat said: It’s uber cool, despite the price.

Grantstown said: Haha, you are correct. One thing it does show is that many people covet the car of the moment, but no way near as many actually want to live with the driving experience. As ever, the Carrera is the car that suits the vast majority, with its much better road manners. If you want to have an investment piece now, buy the 964RS. If you wish to drive the car regularly, buy a sorted carrera and modify it to replicate the RS. Hopefully this doesn't come across as being typically PH passive aggressive mode (it's not meant to) I've owned four 964 RS's, the first bought in 2002 cost £23,500, the last in 2010 just over twice that. They were wonderful cars, and so far removed from a C2, it beggared belief. What I refer to as the Neu Porsche buying demographic talk about weight savings. The 987.2 Cayman R - 55kg (but only if you have the right wheels, seats, no aircon, radio and candles for headlamps, and of course, a manual gearbox... ) The 991 911R was (spec dependent again) 50kg lighter than the lightest 991.2 GT3. Meanwhile the 964 RS was around 150kg (some say 145, others 160kg) lighter than the equivalent 964 C2. A more connected, visceral, fully trimmed, aircooled 911 you'd struggle to find. LHD versions (ie the proper ones) came without PAS, so were even more tactile and engaging. A decent 964 manual, C2 would cost you what ? Minimum £75K now ? You could easily chuck £30K at it to get it something like an RS. Seats, wheels, suspension, brakes, exhaust, sunroof delete, rear bumper conversion, lightweight flywheel, all on top of making the 100K mile engine oil tight and fixing the multitude of other issues that afflict what are now 35 year old cars. Sure the end result would be closER to a 964 RS, but it wouldn't be an RS, it wouldn't smell like an RS, and it almost definitely wouldn't sound or drive like an RS. Which brings me back to my original comment, ie this is not asked in a passive aggressive tone, so typical of PH Have you owned or driven a 964 RS for any length of time ? If you haven't, and you ever get the opportunity to drive the two cars back to back. Do it, the experience may shock you rather more than you'd think

Slippydiff said: Hopefully this doesn't come across as being typically PH passive aggressive mode (it's not meant to) I've owned four 964 RS's, the first bought in 2002 cost £23,500, the last in 2010 just over twice that. They were wonderful cars, and so far removed from a C2, it beggared belief. What I refer to as the Neu Porsche buying demographic talk about weight savings. The 987.2 Cayman R - 55kg (but only if you have the right wheels, seats, no aircon, radio and candles for headlamps, and of course, a manual gearbox... ) The 991 911R was (spec dependent again) 50kg lighter than the lightest 991.2 GT3. Meanwhile the 964 RS was around 150kg (some say 145, others 160kg) lighter than the equivalent 964 C2. A more connected, visceral, fully trimmed, aircooled 911 you'd struggle to find. LHD versions (ie the proper ones) came without PAS, so were even more tactile and engaging. A decent 964 manual, C2 would cost you what ? Minimum £75K now ? You could easily chuck £30K at it to get it something like an RS. Seats, wheels, suspension, brakes, exhaust, sunroof delete, rear bumper conversion, lightweight flywheel, all on top of making the 100K mile engine oil tight and fixing the multitude of other issues that afflict what are now 35 year old cars. Sure the end result would be closER to a 964 RS, but it wouldn't be an RS, it wouldn't smell like an RS, and it almost definitely wouldn't sound or drive like an RS. Which brings me back to my original comment, ie this is not asked in a passive aggressive tone, so typical of PH Have you owned or driven a 964 RS for any length of time ? If you haven't, and you ever get the opportunity to drive the two cars back to back. Do it, the experience may shock you rather more than you'd think I don’t take this is passive aggressive at all and I’m really interested in proper motoring conversation! Perhaps you’ve articulated why the 964RS is now so revered, but it wasn’t so much at the time of its launch. My local Indy is Ninemeister and the proprietor has created his own 993 GT2. It’s chassis and engine numbers don’t match, but it’s got all the right bits on it and I’m sure would drive as well as the best example you could find. I’m confident that they could create a 964 RS that drives authentically as they really know all the details. Whether it’s value over the real deal I’m not so sure. Personally if I had a donor 964 and a blank check I’d go for their 9m11 creation to my taste.

Indeed !! When I bought mine in 2001-2002, only those in the know, knew. To anyone else, they were just another old Porsche, that no one really wanted, but ... the tide was turning even back then. Trackdays were starting to gain in popularity, and out of the box, there was no finer 911 for track duty, put simply, they built for life on track. I tracked mine once, 24 hours after I'd got it home. It was great fun (I spun it twice !!) and fun though it was to have done it once, I didn't get bitten by the trackday bug. Rather I enjoyed numerous drives in it all over the UK. 9M did some work on that first Midnight blue car in my ownership, then it ended up in the Isle of Man, and I think the owner took it to 9M too. It sold 3-4 years ago and was on the market for £145K from memory. As I said, if you're ever presented with the opportunity to drive either car, do it, you'll find it illuminating !' I owned a RHD C2 manual coupe for a few months back in 2004 or 5. I didn't gel with it, it was so far removed from an RS, and felt so isolated and lacking the tactility/sense of connection that I felt with all the 964 RS's I owned.

Thank you for that. It’s great to hear about your personal experience of the RS and clearest you understand what 9M are all about. Yes, i certainly won’t turn down the chance to drive one of I get the opportunity. Perhaps one day I may even own one, but I think I’d always be frustrated if I wasn’t taking it to the track. Using such a beauty for track days in another level of expense and risk again. I don’t think I’ll be in a position to do this, but I’m very jealous of those that can. This is why my track days have generally been in a Clio. If I’d written off the Clio I wouldn’t be too bothered at all. If I damaged an RS I’d be …. I’m sure you could imagine.

hmg said: 30k for a 964RS crystal ball and all that I drove a black rhd one back in the day that was up for £30k and knocked it back. They tramline and crash about on uk roads……

bennno said: I drove a black rhd one back in the day that was up for £30k and knocked it back. They tramline and crash about on uk roads My experiences were that if they were lowered too much, and running sufficient camber and toe to ensure the tyre temps remain consistent across the tread width when used on track, they will indeed tramline on the road. For some reason, the dampers actually get stiffer with age, whether that's a seal or lack of use issue, I never established, but set up at the standard ride height, with the factory recommended geo settings, when fitted with modern tyres, new dampers (or better still 993 RS front dampers with the original 964 RS springs) they make for a wonderful road car. Well surfaced roads undoubtedly played to the car's strengths, so with the state todays roads here in the UK are in, the stock suspension could be sub-optimal. In which case I'd invest in some high quality 3-4 way adjustable dampers to ensure the car could still be enjoyed regularly.

Grantstown said: I don t take this is passive aggressive at all and I m really interested in proper motoring conversation! Perhaps you ve articulated why the 964RS is now so revered, but it wasn t so much at the time of its launch. My local Indy is Ninemeister and the proprietor has created his own 993 GT2. It s chassis and engine numbers don t match, but it s got all the right bits on it and I m sure would drive as well as the best example you could find. I m confident that they could create a 964 RS that drives authentically as they really know all the details. Whether it s value over the real deal I m not so sure. Personally if I had a donor 964 and a blank check I d go for their 9m11 creation to my taste. That is true …… except for journo Brian Laban back when they were launched. He really loved it and nominated it for ‘Performance Car## Magazine Car of the Year” when it was launched For younger people….. ##Performance Car magazine was the forerunner of EVO who kept up the tradition with an ‘EVO Car of the YEAR’ article where journos would nominate a wide variation of cars

s m said: That is true except for journo Brian Laban back when they were launched. He really loved it and nominated it for Performance Car## Magazine Car of the Year when it was launched For younger people .. ##Performance Car magazine was the forerunner of EVO who kept up the tradition with an EVO Car of the YEAR article where journos would nominate a wide variation of cars I do love the no filter journalism here. He is ahead of his time and well before Topgear’s episode on the new phenomenon of track days, where they pitted the 360 Challenge Stradale against the 996 GT3 RS. Challenge Stradale prices have gone nuts, whereas the 996s haven’t really. Is the normal 996 GT3 a better car than the 996 RS? It’s not as pretty, but the more time that goes on the more classic it looks. I’m wondering if the 996 GT3 is a bit of a bargain at the moment. In previous years it was all about the next GT3, but in all honestly I’m not sure how many really care about the 992 and whether to go .1 or .2. It’s lost its lustre a bit and eyes will start to look back to the early ones. A 996 GT3 vs 964 RS would be a n interesting twin test.

Slippydiff said: For some reason, the dampers actually get stiffer with age, whether that's a seal or lack of use issue, I never established, but set up at the standard ride height, with the factory recommended geo settings, when fitted with modern tyres, new dampers (or better still 993 RS front dampers with the original 964 RS springs) they make for a wonderful road car. I believe the cause is that the coil springs harden with age. I have driven quite a few 964RS's back in the days when they were cheap, relatively. If you saw even a small pothole that you could not avoid (by todays standards anyway) you would wince before you hit it as you knew what was coming. Never driven a 993RS but a few GT2's. As you say the damping is very much improved

s m said: That is true except for journo Brian Laban back when they were launched. He really loved it and nominated it for Performance Car## Magazine Car of the Year when it was launched Great scans there. I seem to remember the 'World Sports Cars' magazine also gave the RS a good review back in the day. I am sure I have the magazine somewhere but I suspect my library is less organised than yours!

SRT Hellcat said: Slippydiff said: For some reason, the dampers actually get stiffer with age, whether that's a seal or lack of use issue, I never established, but set up at the standard ride height, with the factory recommended geo settings, when fitted with modern tyres, new dampers (or better still 993 RS front dampers with the original 964 RS springs) they make for a wonderful road car. I believe the cause is that the coil springs harden with age. I have driven quite a few 964RS's back in the days when they were cheap, relatively. If you saw even a small pothole that you could not avoid (by todays standards anyway) you would wince before you hit it as you knew what was coming. Never driven a 993RS but a few GT2's. As you say the damping is very much improved Common mod back in the day was to swap out the front dampers for 993rs ones. The 964rs was universally derided by the press when it came out - just too hardcore for brits and our roads. From memory my 30k klms 964 RSCS was £32k when I bought it, someone we both know biffed it at the ring with someone else we know in the passenger seat and we got some timber and straightened the rear wheel arch to carry on driving. Happy days.

Not all journalists missed the point of the 964RS upon launch, but yes it was panned in Autocar and CAR. Too stiff, too expensive, Andrew Frankel (Autocar) couldn t understand why Porsche was charging a premium for what he saw as a C2 with stiff suspension and without leccy windows and a sunroof. Proper sensationalist lazy journalism. Interestingly David Vivian also Autocar did the first drive story in Autocar ‘what i did on my holidays’ and loved it as well, but when they road tested the car on UK roads it was panned. With time and second opinion the car gained a lot of recognition, it almost winning a test of the greatest 911 of all time test in EVO in 2002, enough for Dickie Meaden to purchase his own. Having owned lots of RS 911 derivatives over the years it remains one of my favourites. it s no easy daily driver, but to me it remains very special and miles more exciting that a C2. Edited by seawise on Friday 5th June 11:40

AGAINST Nothing. Not anything • VERDICT Exactly what a performance car should be 'Nuff said.

Grantstown said: I do love the no filter journalism here. He is ahead of his time and well before Topgear s episode on the new phenomenon of track days, where they pitted the 360 Challenge Stradale against the 996 GT3 RS. Challenge Stradale prices have gone nuts, whereas the 996s haven t really. Is the normal 996 GT3 a better car than the 996 RS? It s not as pretty, but the more time that goes on the more classic it looks. I m wondering if the 996 GT3 is a bit of a bargain at the moment. In previous years it was all about the next GT3, but in all honestly I m not sure how many really care about the 992 and whether to go .1 or .2. It s lost its lustre a bit and eyes will start to look back to the early ones. A 996 GT3 vs 964 RS would be a n interesting twin test. I think in Germany 996 RS prices have increased quite a bit over the last year or so. I suspect it is people buying them to export to the US at 25y as it was never sold there.

I think the 964RS is overrated. Great on track or smooth roads, but seriously hobbled by the suspension on the road. Add in the fact you will melt on hot days with no air con in that cabin, no sun visors also which doesn't sound like a problem until you drive into the sun. It was also under tyred at the front so even with rake and trail braking it would tend to understeer. It was much better on track with slicks or type 1a rubber of the day and a size up at the front. Great engine and brakes though. If I could afford another would fit good quality coilovers and alter geo. I would imagine they would be much better on modern tyres, though it wouldn't address the awful standard spring/damper rates which will try to bounce you off the road given a chance. Edited by hooch500 on Thursday 11th June 18:34

993rsr said: SRT Hellcat said: Slippydiff said: For some reason, the dampers actually get stiffer with age, whether that's a seal or lack of use issue, I never established, but set up at the standard ride height, with the factory recommended geo settings, when fitted with modern tyres, new dampers (or better still 993 RS front dampers with the original 964 RS springs) they make for a wonderful road car. I believe the cause is that the coil springs harden with age. I have driven quite a few 964RS's back in the days when they were cheap, relatively. If you saw even a small pothole that you could not avoid (by todays standards anyway) you would wince before you hit it as you knew what was coming. Never driven a 993RS but a few GT2's. As you say the damping is very much improved Common mod back in the day was to swap out the front dampers for 993rs ones. The 964rs was universally derided by the press when it came out - just too hardcore for brits and our roads. From memory my 30k klms 964 RSCS was £32k when I bought it, someone we both know biffed it at the ring with someone else we know in the passenger seat and we got some timber and straightened the rear wheel arch to carry on driving. Happy days. Might have been happy days for your good self,but i was in the passenger seat going backwards whilst tightening my harness

I believe Walter Rohrl has one, though he obviously listened to my advice and changed the suspension..

Yellow491 said: 993rsr said: SRT Hellcat said: Slippydiff said: For some reason, the dampers actually get stiffer with age, whether that's a seal or lack of use issue, I never established, but set up at the standard ride height, with the factory recommended geo settings, when fitted with modern tyres, new dampers (or better still 993 RS front dampers with the original 964 RS springs) they make for a wonderful road car. I believe the cause is that the coil springs harden with age. I have driven quite a few 964RS's back in the days when they were cheap, relatively. If you saw even a small pothole that you could not avoid (by todays standards anyway) you would wince before you hit it as you knew what was coming. Never driven a 993RS but a few GT2's. As you say the damping is very much improved Common mod back in the day was to swap out the front dampers for 993rs ones. The 964rs was universally derided by the press when it came out - just too hardcore for brits and our roads. From memory my 30k klms 964 RSCS was £32k when I bought it, someone we both know biffed it at the ring with someone else we know in the passenger seat and we got some timber and straightened the rear wheel arch to carry on driving. Happy days. Might have been happy days for your good self,but i was in the passenger seat going backwards whilst tightening my harness

hooch500 said: I believe Walter Rohrl has one, though he obviously listened to my advice and changed the suspension.. Ahem ... Slippydiff said: Well surfaced roads undoubtedly played to the car's strengths, so with the state todays roads here in the UK are in, the stock suspension could be sub-optimal. In which case I'd invest in some high quality 3-4 way adjustable dampers to ensure the car could still be enjoyed regularly.

hooch500 said: I believe Walter Rohrl has one, though he obviously listened to my advice and changed the suspension.. Pal of mine had the WR developed and branded Bilsteins fitted to his 64RS and yes they made a noticeable improvement, to its road manners. However to state that the cars are overpriced/overrated when a nice standard C2 is a six figure car now i think is twaddle.

I've never driven a 964 RS, but I do suspect the road quality has a big impact on views of people based in the UK. The roads I tend to drive on in Germany in Austria are by no means perfect, but compared to UK roads, they are like some magic carpet ride In the UK it sometimes felt like I was doing a slalom avoiding the various craters, certainly interesting given the lanes are not exactly spacious - kept me on my toes and my eyes on the road. I really should do a road trip to the UK, now that I have time for it. Maybe bring the 996 to its home country for a bit to bunny hop along the roads up to Scotland

seawise said: Pal of mine had the WR developed and branded Bilsteins fitted to his 64RS and yes they made a noticeable improvement, to its road manners. However to state that the cars are overpriced/overrated when a nice standard C2 is a six figure car now i think is twaddle. Old 911’s generally are way overpriced and often bought by drivers who over rate their driving skills. I recently lapped a few of them on an instructor lap in a Transit van. I hope non of them are reading this thread. Most of them would be better off with a Cayman. Don’t even get me started on Singer et al… Let’s see what you could have for £180 k - how about tidy fast 7 and a brand new M3 touring and enough left over to run them for a decade. Dipstick.

hooch500 said: Old 911 s generally are way overpriced and often bought by drivers who over rate their driving skills. I recently lapped a few of them on an instructor lap in a Transit van. I hope non of them are reading this thread. Most of them would be better off with a Cayman. Don t even get me started on Singer et al Let s see what you could have for £180 k - how about tidy fast 7 and a brand new M3 touring and enough left over to run them for a decade. Dipstick. Gosh, i bow down before thee, master of track driving and how to spend an arbitrary £180k (not that this would get you a straight 64RS). I use this to check my oil as well, not to be reliant on the instrument cluster gauge.

seawise said: Gosh, i bow down before thee, master of track driving and how to spend an arbitrary £180k (not that this would get you a straight 64RS). I use this to check my oil as well, not to be reliant on the instrument cluster gauge. I’m not entirely sure which is worse - your command of basic grammar or your flaccid attempt at sarcastic wit. I’m flattered you went to the trouble of including the photo though the elaboration was certainly superfluous. I hope you didn’t get any oil on your pinstripe shirt.

hooch500 said: I m not entirely sure which is worse - your command of basic grammar or your flaccid attempt at sarcastic wit. I m flattered you went to the trouble of including the photo though the elaboration was certainly superfluous. I hope you didn t get any oil on your pinstripe shirt. Calling someone a dipstick isn’t the worst thing ever. You’ve made some good and interesting points, but isn’t it better if the thread stays civil?