how long does the tiptronic transmission last on 996/997 ?

greetings everyone i am continuing my research into buying a old Generation I (997.1) of non-turbo Carrera, ~2004-2005 builds, the ones with infamous 'IMS bearing problems' and 'scored cylinder' problems and RMS problems (scary topics!!!!). I prefer to buy automatic car, these cars have the 5-speed Tiptronic automatic. Does this 5-speed Tiptronic automatic transmission suffer from any reliability or longevity issues?? How long (distance or time or both) do you expect Tiptronic automatic to last before a rebuild, on model 996/997 cars?? If the worst happens - approximately what sum of money is required to rebuild this Tiptronic transmission?? is there anything else I should be aware of when owning Tiptronic model 996/997 car? THANKS!

I'm no technical expert mate, but everything I looked into when I bought mine said the Tipper was one of the best engineered components on the car. If my info is correct I think it's a Merc box originally.

thanks! So at least the tip-shift auto (thanks to M-B?) appears to be sound. God knows the water cooled engines in 996 and 997.1 have plenty to be worried about. thanks for you reply.

Personally I think you're possibly over- worrying. I looked at the IMS issues and bought a car, look after it well and havent looked back. My sense of it having worked for other manufacturers over the years is that all cars have "issues", some are well publicised some not. There seems to my opinion an over emohasis on the IMS weakness mainly because Porsche has had a reputation for flawless engineering. Thus, there is a tendancy to make "mountains out of molehills" and fear can spread very fast. Looking at the pure facts shows that if you take the right precautions you will need to be very unlucky to have a failure.

+1 I too researched all the 'stuff' about IMS failure and still bought a gen 1 997 (2005).  It's a great machine and sure, there's times when you might read something which get you anxious but it's seriously over-hyped.  They do fail, but it's not a 100% failure rate.  Like everything, you hear more the bad, rather than the good news stories.

Question acid_rider.... Have you taken a 911 for a drive yet? I too feel like your worrying maybe a bit too much.  You are obviously wise to do all this research and have come to the right place. But i'd love to see your logical left brain hang on to this just a little more loosely and let the emotional right brain just LOVE driving a 911. Decisions are made first emotionally and justified/rationalised with logic that we find to back it up. Just go drive one! I were minutes into my test drive and KNEW I were going to buy it!  Actually, I think it was at the end of the street, turning onto the main rd and accelerating for the first time - Sold! And if you have problems down the road, you'll be so emotionally invested in the car that you will have no trouble justifying the repair bill!

thanks to everyone for their replies. I have not driven the car - not found anything in my price range at the dealers yet. I look forward to driving it, for sure.

I just test drove 997.1 automatic Carrera-2 at Porsche Brighton dealer. Dealer said the tiptronic is indeed from Mercedes-Benz in 997.1. He claimed that in normal driving conditions the tiptronic should last a very long time before rebuild, perhaps 250,000km or more. He claimed the 997.1 engine should also last at least as long if properly maintained and not raced, etc. I mentioned the IMS bearing and he said this did not affect the 997 engine cars, only the 996 model and only until about 2001-2002. Would you agree with these opinions?

No. The early 997.1 engines have the same design problem as the 996 engines. The M96 engine from the 996 continued on into the Carrera model, and the M97 engine used in the Carrera S has the same design problem. Basically, it can happen that the bearings at the end of the IMS don't get enough lubrication, and can end up splintering into pieces, then finding their way into the engine, causing catastrophic failure. Cars built after around Feb/March 2005 - the specific date of changeover is unclear - use a modified design that seems far less prone to issues. This revised design uses two rows of bearings and appears to be much more reliable. So if you're concerned, your strategy can either be to buy one built after march 2005, or one before that and have the fix applied ASAP. To keep things in perspective, it only seems to effect around 5% of owners. Alternatively if it's not an issue, perhaps the selling dealer can put a warranty for the engine in writing. In the US there was a class action lawsuit about all this. www.imsporschesettlement.com In my research I haven't identified any particular issues with the tiptronic, except that being of that vintage it's nowhere near as fast or smooth as present-day auto transmissions. I'm sure others will know more about this! Some people have the view that since the tiptronic doesn't generally rev as high as a manual driver might, it may make the engines more likely to suffer the IMS bearing issue (since more lubrication is thought to be provided at higher revs). The 997.2 engines (model year 2009 onwards) don't have an IMS at all, and the automated manual transmission (PDK) is far superior to the tiptronic. If cost wasn't an issue this would be a no-brainer choice.

Just to clarify, ZF actually make the Tiptronic transmission and other transmissions for Porsche and many many other car manufacturers around the world including MB and Ford Falcon range here. Your car salesman is living up to the unfortunate stereotype of a car salesman on at least two points of fact. Should you believe him on anything else? (rhetorical question that doesn't need a response.)

thanks folks! the salesman did not strike me all that trustworthy, hence my questions.....

well, after your test drive ......  did you like the car ? And re salesmen and IMS issues.... they sell the car, they don't service it, so they won't know.

re test drive, since you asked. yes, I liked the car, it was 2004 997.1 with 130,000km, rear-drive, tiptronic. the only thing I found very odd was that the brake pedal required A LOT OF EFFORT to slow the car down, compared to my C-class and my 3-series. Its as if it was not power assisted brake at all. Dealer said the brake rotors and pads are brand new. Is it reasonable to expect the brake pedal to be so "heavy footed" compared to M-B and BMW pedal feel? Thanks!

Assuming the brakes on that car were OK I can make a suggestion based on my own experience. Having never previously owned a rear engine car I questioned the brake feel on mine initially. Even changed the rotors and pads all round just to make sure. Once I got used to it I felt that different inertia feel and weight distribution that I was feeling through my ass was deceiving me. Remember that compared to your other cars there is no front end mass in the 911 to dominate the front brakes. Again, its a feel thing that comes from driving these cars. I promise it will stop better than anything else youve owned.

errr, no my brakes are very good. could be they are so new, i.e. completely new, so the need a bit of wearing in? but I am guessing. Also I don't have a BMW or Merc...

The pedal feel should be firm. The 911 is a true sportscar, perhaps supercar even (certainly a turbo is) and is not really going to compare in those senses to a plush Mercedes C or BMW 3.  Curious what kind of variants you're comparing with...are you talking balls out AMG C63 & M3?  Or garden variety C & 3 series cars?  Either way, they are not in the same league. Those 911 brakes are designed to pull you up hard from 280kph. Porsche braking is renowned as the best in the business. I think what you are experiencing IS brake pedal feel!  Not fluffy over-assisted brakes. My rally car has the power assistance removed.  The pedal is very firm, but the feel when pushing hard and the discs are glowing is great! Drive a few to be sure there is not something odd with that particular car of course.

Well articulated Trev.... C

So you liked it, but you're not emotionally attached to it at all by your writings. Don't buy it. Move on until you find one that you look at over your shoulder as you walk away. No Porsche is cheap motoring. If you don't love it you won't maintain it properly, and then you'll be as guilty as the others who cut corners. It should be a thrilling experience, not ho hum. Then you won't resent writing the cheques, and frankly, you'll write plenty. And no the brakes won't feel like a BMW or anything else, as Trev pointed out. They are properly weighted, like the other controls, for a sporting driving experience. This advice might come across as harsh. I make no apology for that. You'll agree one day, or you'll buy nothing and think I'm being smart. No matter.

great replies, once again - many thanks I plan to drive at least one more model 997 to see if the brake pedal feel is as expected.

well, some cars it's love at first sight, with others it's a slow growing relationship.

I just purchased my 1st Porsche and find the transmissiin to run a little strange its the tiptonic and notice it never starts in 1st gear always 2nd and some times it stays in 6th even after I have decelerated to almost a stop is that normal I have no experience to go by. Its an 09 911 turbo tiptonic 34k and sill have a 2yr  100k extended warranty.  Looking for some experienced responses.

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in the 993, it always starts in second if the stick is in drive. Put the stick down one gear and it starts in first.

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Great, what about the deceleration issue of it not downshifting according to the speed I am going staying in 6th or 5th even though I am almost at a complete syop then it shifts to second, this dtuff is probably normal but I am new to a Porsche.

Reading the manual will ease your concerns and yes, this is normal behaviour

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Yes you are right its the size of the bible which I havent quite gotten through that yet either.

Congrats on the car Craig. All normal and in usual driving 1st is a very short gear, totally unecessary. Now if you want some fun, just push those silver buttons on your wheel sometimes, and for more fun move the stick to man and push the silver buttons some more, and don't spare the ponies! And with sports Chrono there's even more fun to be had in man mode

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Thanks Sandy saturating myself now with article after article about the pdk vs tip havent even gotten into the sport mode button yet. This is the problem when you buy a car in another state and its shipped to your door I have no idea of what Im doing but it is fun so far.

My 996 tippa  always starts in 2nd when in auto mode as per owners manual info and will quite happily stay in 5th where it can unless given a nudge with the right foot.

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Thanks Rod sounds like I really dont have any tranny issues after hearing from people, nice to hear TY.

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sounds like a Mercedes-Benz designed gearbox, they're renown for starting in second gear unless you really tramp the throttle. If anything an Automatic gearbox is much better for your engine, as there is a fluid coupling between the engine and gearbox so the engine isn't stressed as much as it would be with a direct connection through a clutch. I think with regular servicing there's no reason the tiptronic box won't last a long time

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TY Rod, it has been a fun few days of driving it wont see the snow though.

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ZF actually Not so much nowadays with lock up torque converters which eliminate slip.  They are no longer "slushboxes". However agree a Tip makes it is difficult to overrev the engine which does save wallet stress as well. Agreed

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actually MB stopped using ZF trans and started building their own.  The early versions of these were problematic and led to plummeting quality ratings for ml and e class models. the 996 does use a ZF trans, which is shared with BMW, vw and Audi.  Despite the fancy name, it is a traditional slusher and not to be confused with a PDk/dsg 'flappy paddle' box. Yeah I realise this thread was dragged up from the dungeon but pedantry can never rest.

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Really, I though MB only used ZF manual gearboxes and not autos and only used Borg Warners autos in the early 60's before moving fully to their own design automatics? None of this affects Craig in his 997 and its most excellent Tiptronic but agree a bit of pedantry is fun.

I think you might be onto something with the Borg-warner trans. Porsche developed the tip with ZF and they got exclusive access for years before BMW could use it.  My BMW is a 'tiptronic' which goes under the name of 'steptronic'.  Same basic box though.  It did need an oil and filter change despite 'filled for life'.   Still shifts sweet and heading towards 20 years old.  I ha d an earlier non-tip BMW and the box in that got very tired.

i love this place.

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True, in the 60's. As far as I know all Merc trans since then have been their own design. The 996 had a MB auto up to 2005, not sure what the 997 uses? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Daimler_AG_transmissions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_5G-Tronic_transmission https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_7G-Tronic_transmission I know way off an old topic We are now up to 9 speed auto!! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_9G-Tronic_transmission the 7 speed in my ML is TOO many..... Oh, in answer to the original question, no idea, although if it was a MB box then a very long time......

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Yes, and it makes a lot of difference to how the car drives.  Ideal for town or spirited driving.  Wish someone had pointed this trick out earlier in my ownership.

The start in second thing is to improve economy.  Does make the car feel sluggish - stupid idea I think. in my car the zf box hangs onto low gears for ages when it is cold.  Supposed to warmt he oil up faster I think.   Also makes the car feel broken.

You can manually change it up if you like? My ML will. "The Mercedes Benz 722-series automatic gearbox is calibrated to take off in second gear to reduce "creeping" and provide a smoother ride. The transmission will select 1st only if the selector is in "2" or in case of abrupt acceleration" and every MB box since and all before as well. My '66 w108 started in second too.

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Adam, I thought the 996's and Boxter's used ZF 5HP19's?  Mmmmm, maybe I owe Russ an apology? Actually: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZF_5HP_transmission Lol, I think the same and then realise the engine is cold and it's just trying to heat the cats up quicker and then I relax as I realise my wallet is safe....

OK, it appears that the 996 used both ZF and Mercedes auto transmissions.... bit odd but from what it have seen, seems to be true... ?

My previous 997.1 turbo used a MB auto. Had a small oil leak and whole transaxle was replaced under warranty. I was told it was a 30K item. While they might last a while I wonder who can rebuild them in AU or if you could even get the parts.

From what I have been told last time at my MB dealer for my previous car (97 E320) Mercedes no longer repair items, a problem with a diff, gearbox, engine then they simply install a new complete unit! I was quite shocked, especially at the $5k cost for a new diff centre due to a slight diff whine.... going by that I would say not in aus!

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my car is an 2002 996 C2 and only needed a rebuild in 2015 with 85,000kms it cost $4500 by CATS in Rosebery and they were surprised to see one. They said they are near bullet proof and I was just unlucky. Anecdotally I was told the C1s were plagued with issues. I was originally wanting a manaul but I have been pleasantly surprised by the tip auto.

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The one exception to this is the transmission in the 450SEL 6.9. It's a Detroit (from memory) 3 Speed that starts in first

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Not sure what you base the "Detroit" transmission use from, but as far as I know Mercedes only use their own transmissions, and all of the early V8 transmissions (except the mighty 600) were an older 3 speed design to cope with the extra torque of a V8 - the same one they used in 928s up until 1984. Mercedes "collaboration" with Detroit started with the recent and now defunct Chrysler "merger". As a point I took off in my car today, just normally and it definitely started in first.... something I think it mostly does....

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it's a ZF box that Porsche co-developed with them.  BMW, Mercedes, vw,Audi and even Ford also used them.  Mercy sometimes do their own trsns though, but the Porsche tip is not one of them. Whoops look at that I answered the same thing twice Not sure if Porsche specifies fill for life but just opened a 200k ZF auto and the oil was like bad sump oil and the filter was sludged up.  Hard to say what the ideal service life is but I'd be getting it done every 100k.

The internet the perfect place to muddy the waters..... Ok, from a little more research, aka internet browsing (so take that as being as accurate as... ??!) From Stuttcars, usually they have good info and may be the most "accurate" answer yet..... https://www.stuttcars.com/porsche-models/911/996/ about half way down. "If you have driven the 996 Turbo with Tiptronic, you have noticed the car is not so bad compared to the manual transmission version as the 996 Carrera Tiptronic is compared to the manual. Your feeling doesn't lie - the Tiptronic in the Carrera is built by ZF, while the one in the Turbo comes from Mercedes-AMG (just that it has a shaft for front drive plus an external oil cooler). The MB 5G-Tronic has 250 shift programs for different driving styles and conditions while the ZF Tiptronic in the Carrera has 5. With quicker gas pedal action, the transmission responds by raising shift points to hold each gear longer for crisp response and power. The Mercedes-AMG gearbox has 2 reverse gears. When you start to drive with the cold engine, 1st forward and 1st reverse gears are used to quickly warm up the engine. With the warm engine the car moves away in second as well as it uses 2nd reverse gear when driving backwards." So the standard Carrera may have a ZF and the Turbo (possibly C4 as well?) has an MB box.... sounds plausible...

My 997.1 Turbo definitely had an MB Auto

I achieved over 200,000 in my 996 before it needed to be opened up

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Was that "opened up" for a service or repair? Did you sell it in the end?

Repair and I ended up trading it. House move is just on 4 weeks, so a V8 Ute was in order!!!

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Surprised that it only got to 200k? What was the trans issue? A V8 ute is always in order Hope you got a good deal! Does that mean we will see it up for sale somewhere soon....

Ended up being the tranny was slipping, which in-turn caused the engine to hunt/surge whilst driving. At the time, the options proveded to me were obtain a second hand one with unknown history or rebuild. Cash revuild was only a little over the second hand one. No brainer really Dealer says he'll keep it, but you never know.......

Good to know info on the rebuild/ issue. He got a good car, would have been on my list if that big bag of money had ever turned up

Ok, after some random reading of a book I have, Porsche 911 Story by Paul Frere, I stumbled across what seems like the facts of the 996 autos.... The 996 did come out with a ZF sourced automatic transmission for all the non turbo/ non GT cars. The turbo trans was sourced from Mercedes due to the ZF one not being able to handle the torque. From 2002 with the increase in torque of the base models, the ZF was replaced with the Mercedes unit. This continued into the 997 as well. Cheers