Bad News Today - Scored Cylinders

Well guys, I finally got news today that I have really been fearing to hear. #4 and #6 cylinders are heavily scored, and a bit on #5 too...#'s 1-3 are ok. Bit of history - 125k on the odometer, I've always changed the oil myself (every 3-4k miles as the PO did). This all started with taking the car in to have the AOS replaced while I was going to be away on work for about a month. I also had a light engine tick at idle that would disappear above 2k RPMs. I had had the master tech at the dealership listen to it, as well as a few people in the PCA that had experience, and they all said most likely just a tired lifter noise, not to worry about until I was going in for some other repair or maintenance. I figured this would be as good of time as any, especially because I had an aftermarket warranty that would cover up to 3k if lifters and quite a few other parts failed. The indy I took it to listened to it with a stethoscope and agreed most likely lifter noise based on the type of noise and the location it was coming from. So he got permission from the warranty company and replaced the lifters (after taking them out, 4 of them on the exhaust side were failed, the rest were fine). We agreed to replace all 24 of them just so that we wouldn't have to worry about the others. Indy put it back together. Intake side all quieted down as they pumped up with oil, but the exhaust side was still noisy. The engine passed a leakdown test with flying colors. At that point we were thinking well its unlikely that the lifters were bad parts, but not completely out of the question or unheard of. So he goes to replace them again, but this time notices that oil is not getting circulated to a few of them at all. He flushed the engine out before putting in the second set of new lifters, thinking it would clear the oil passages and let him know if there was another problem he was somehow missing. The engine flush proved that it was filthy by the way, the indy thinks that this was probably caused by the first owner not doing oil changes as often as he should have (change every 15k by the manual - really????) and that was where it started and has progressively gotten worse even though I do frequent changes, just like the owner before me. The mechanic felt pretty good that the engine flush cleaned the passages and would allow the lifters to pump up - but there was still a bad noise present, seemingly disguised by the lifter noise before. Indy decided that something was truly not right and he didn't feel good about giving the car back to me without trying to find the root of the cause. He decided he needed to open up the case, thinking the engine may need an overhaul. That's when he saw the scored cylinders, and pretty badly damaged pistons to go with it (on #4 and #6). Needless to say I'm feeling pretty down about it, it's been a rollercoaster of a ride that has finally reached bottom. The indy thinks that it's possible that cylinders 4-6 could be sleeved with replacement of those pistons, but I'm not very optimistic because he didn't sound too optimistic about it. I'm not sure what to do or think about it at this point. All said and done probably going to be about 15k to rebuild the engine if it's even possible. Buying a used engine isn't really seeming like a better option. Not knowing the history of it seems like a very expensive gamble, and I can't go through this again anytime soon. At the very least I need to hear whether my engine is rebuildable. I've even considered doing an LS1 conversion, yet again that is expensive even if I do most of the work myself. As painful as it will be, I'm honestly leaning towards selling as a roller to be done with it and move on. I've only had it right at a year making this all the more painful. I love that car, it gave me a million smiles on days there were no reasons to. But I can't help thinking that I've been had, that I made a huge mistake and the regret that comes with 20/20 hindsight. Perhaps I can just save up some more and find the right car in a couple years. Thoughts and advice are welcome. Lol this is my therapy, I just needed to write it all out because I'm still spinning from the news and I'm not sure on where to go from here. If you've read this far I appreciate it. Thank you

That sucks to read, and I'm sorry for your dilemma.

If you REALLY, REALLY like this car......and you can afford to do so.....rebuild. If not, sell it and move on to a TURBO. Sorry for your plight.

...

Sorry to hear your loss. Sounds like you suffer the classic scoring on those 2 cylinders. They are more prone to scoring due to higher coolant temp on the load-bearing cylinder wall (upper part) compared to bank 1 (that's how the cooling system was designed). Also leak down test cannot detect scoring. Scoring can be easily diagnosed by a simple ($70) borescope probed into the spark plug holes and via the oil sump (with the oil pan removed). The heads do not need to be removed at all. If you plan to keep the car for long (5-10yrs), your options are a used engine for $15 or a rebuild engine for $15-25k. Otherwise, just sell it as a roller will be the most sensible option. The main reason is parts are very expensive on this engine and work required to fix the cylinders properly is also very expensive (regardless of metal sleeve or Nickies).

Sorry to hear your situation. But don't throw the baby out with the bath water. The best thing to do is measure twice and cut once. Make a list of all the options and the costs...from buying a used engine to building a new engine to selling it as a roller. As it now seems, the only thing wrong with your car is the engine. And from the love you have for the car, giving it another engine (whether new or used) may be worth the money and get you back on the road in a car you love. If this last engine went 127k miles...maybe there's a motor out there that will give you another 60k. Take you time making your decision.

The math is simple. Say your car is worth $20k before failure and now it's worth $6k (roller), you already lost $14k. You will only lose less if you can fix it (properly) for less than $14k.

What year is the car? Parting it out could earn you more than selling as a roller.

bummer - sorry to hear the news.

I am so very sorry for your situation. Before making a final decision, please check to see if you can find a replacement engine for $15k or less. I don't have any other suggestions for you. Keep posting here if it helps you cope even a little bit. You are among a sympathetic group here.

Very sorry to hear your story. It really sucks. I also recently lost an engine and my immediate reaction was to sell it as a roller. But after getting about a dozen interested replies and one offer (for $8K) in about 2 hours on CL, I just couldn't do it. Like you, I also love the car and it has given me a great deal of pleasure over the past 2 years. My solution came with a used 997 engine which, all in including taxes, cost me about $17K to get it back on the road. I couldn't be happier with the 997 engine. I am still exploring the 996 turbo option but in the meantime I have an awesome 996 C2 to enjoy!

Sorry for your misfortune. I am at 128,000 miles and wonder how much more do I have.It's running like new at the moment???

That really sucks. I see your in Kansas, so is this another cold weather scored M96 victim?

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And still people don't believe my cold weather connection with these failures... You have lots of choices with an engine that ONLY has scored cylinders. Thats the best failure that we can deal with, it has limited collateral damage.

Very sorry about your engine and I hope you make a decision that is best for both your heart and your wallet. I'm curious, your aftermarket warranty won't cover this? What is there stance? Which company? I ask because I too have an aftermarket warranty.

First there will be allegations that the engine was ran low on oil... Then that it was abused, or neglected, then they'll find some technicality in which to deny the claim. If they do somewhat honor it, they'll try to buy the cheapest used engine they can find. The only warranty company I have seen thats worth dealing with is LaSalle Warranty. I won't accept any jobs that are being paid for by any other aftermarket warranty. Its a disaster in every experience I have had with a 996 engine. I hope the OP has better luck than that.

X51 55k miles, ims done at 45k $15k from LAD I imagine they might go lower as they have had the motor since April. http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&alt=web&id=161785570351&globalID=EBAY-US

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+1

Thanks for all the replies. I am in KS, and I did drive in the one winter that I owned it...the indy said it's not from using it in the cold weather but I also think that the research Jake Raby has done is nothing to ignore. Jake I may give your office a call later. Yes, I do love the car, but in the end a car is a car. I have other priorities to think about right now especially with my career. I'm thinking more of investing in myself than the car at this point. The warranty was a Route 66. Granted it only paid up to 3k but it was painless for me to use. They paid out all 3k so I have no complaints. Mechanic got paid so he didn't complain either. However I got that warranty through my bank so I'm not even sure how available it is. Honestly, with these cars if you have any of the major maintenance that Route 66 pays for, you're going to be over whatever amount their gonna pay for. Example, they'll pay for rebuilding an engine, up to 3k. Ha. Parting out isn't an option, I don't have the time for it or a place to store it while it's unusable. The indy mentioned giving me 4K for it as a roller...I'm not positive but since he has done all the work in diagnosing and attempted fixes, I feel like I kinda have to sell it to him. At the same time, he got 3k already from that warranty. The car is completely apart right now (engine out and dismantled, all the accessories separated, transmission out etc etc). What do you guys think? Another thing the mechanic and I noticed is that the IMS retrofit that the PO installed himself was seeping. If I really really wanted to get back in a 996, I feel like I could find something I like with lower miles for that $18-20k mark or less. I paid 20k for mine last year at 111,000 miles and feel like an idiot. For now a cheap used car is probably in my near future.

Glad to see they warranty was worthwhile. Feel free to give us a ring. Jud will log your failure into our log, and then set up a time to speak with me. I am working on my training program today, so I won' be around when you call, but I can call you back today. I might be interested in the car, if you decide not to move forward with a repair. The one thing thats ALWAYS a common denominator with scored cylinders is cold weather use. Mid west fuel doesn't help it at all, either. All it takes is a piston, and a block half, out into a freezer and measured with a micrometer/ bore gauge to see the underlying issue.

Sorry about your loss but it seems like the people who proactively investigates every little thing are the ones that find some issues and then sometimes taking knee jerk reactions to it. Too bad you had the engine taken apart rather than just using a less invasive method like a borescope, or else you could've just driven it into the ground and potentially gotten more miles out of her like some members are doing now. Who knows how many other people are driving cars with scored cylinders unknowingly, and for how many miles. Just because the car seems to run fine for those that think they may have healthy motors doesn't necessarily mean they aren't running with some form of scored cylinder no matter how minimal. You stated you've done a few oil changes and have had it a year. Besides the little lifter noise, how was it running otherwise and was it burning any oil in between oil changes? Taking apart an engine seems a little harsh for an engine that wasn't broken down and was running good otherwise. Yeah yeah some peeps are gonna say to not drive it and flat bed it to the mechanic at the sign of any little noise and that driving it further could cause collateral damage. However this could lead either to misdiagnosis, or invasive engine inspection that forces the owner to either sell it as a roller or get a full rebuild done as in your case. Rolling the dice and driving into the ground at this point is no longer an option in this case. I believe there are at least a couple guys driving it into the ground on here. They are even taking it to the tracks, granted they are feeding it lots of oil. Dunno about your Indy. First he got the diagnosis partially wrong and now he's offering you $4k as a roller. At any of the first steps, did he even bother dropping the sump at all? My $.02 and flamesuit on...

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I agree with the Indy, and agree that why not drive the living **** out of it in the mean time if it wasn't all taken apart? But, if it's all apart and everything else fine then it really should only need new cylinders/pistons and then back together. Not cheap, but I wouldn't think that would approach the high end of rebuilds?

He tried using a boroscope but the one he had was too large to fit down into the cylinders. At that point he thought he had it fixed anyways because the oil circulation was ok after flushing out the engine. My girlfriend and I discussed that too, that I really could've just kept driving the car until something worse happened. But I also hate driving an unreliable car too. Hopefully I can get a little more than 4k out of it if I decide to sell it to the indy. We ended up opening it up hoping that we'd find the problem and be able to fix it, but now it's this mess.

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Agreed, and perhaps that will be an option. BUT, indy said that's probably going to be around the 15k mark at least. If it's even possible. And after that, I'm not sure about the reliability of the engine even then. I really would hate to spend 15k, and then be in another predicament in 1 year.

Statistically, anytime a m96 engine has been opened up, it's resulted in some form of a rebuild most of the time. This is something other owners should consider and be prepared for if faced with this situation.

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He did drop the sump, checked the oil pump and secondary oil pumps for any blockages, metal flakes, etc etc. Found nothing to say that there was anything wrong besides the fact that somehow the oil wasn't circulating properly. Hence flushing the engine with transmission fluid while the lifters were out. It was using a good amount of oil, probably about a quart every 1,000 miles. Indy found that the AOS was seeping, as well as the oil cooler was seeping coolant. Never found any drops of oil, but there was oil mist on the back of the car. I was told and figuring most likely the failing AOS but now in hindsight, that was probably #4 and #6 cylinders. Indy said that the top of the pistons really aren't scored just the bottom parts under the rings, and you can see the damage of the cylinders is also on the bottom 3/4 of them. He said it may be a good candidate to sleeve but even still......I just don't know how comfortable I'd be with the engine after that. Other than the slight tick coming from the lifters area on the passenger side, it ran great. Pulled like a champ, had gas mileage averaging 26-27 on the highway, about 20 normal driving.

"I believe there are at least a couple guys driving it into the ground on here. They are even taking it to the tracks, granted they are feeding it lots of oil. Dunno about your Indy. First he got the diagnosis partially wrong and now he's offering you $4k as a roller. At any of the first steps, did he even bother dropping the sump at all?" ^This^ Especially the shop/mechanic...There's a bad smell emanating from that place IMO. Hindsight is obviously 20/20 but you should have just kept driving it with the "tick". You'd be in the exact same situation except the car would still be in one piece and you'd still be driving it.

crappy sitch. I'm in the same boat. rebuild time for me though. I drove my car and also tracked it with scored cylinders, no issues other than addimg lots of oil. sometimes I wish I just kept driving it. but I listened to jake instead. https://youtu.be/U65YkjOObRo parked it about 2 weeks after that track day and began engine removal...

What would be classified as cold weather driving? Anything below freezing?? Also don't feel bad about paying 20k for the car! The majority of people off of these forums pay that and more everyday! Even at 110k miles they book out for much more!

^This^ Especially the shop/mechanic...There's a bad smell emanating from that place IMO. Hindsight is obviously 20/20 but you should have just kept driving it with the "tick". You'd be in the exact same situation except the car would still be in one piece and you'd still be driving it.[/QUOTE] Yea sure but everyone that listened to it said probably just a sticky lifter, just replace it when you can. Well I've been out of town for a month, and my intent to was to keep this car for a long time if it didn't have a serious engine problem. I was expecting to replace the lifters and then we're back to the road. It wasn't so black and white.

Thanks for the pics. The scoring does look pretty bad but what catches my eye more is the amount of carbon buildup on top of the piston(s). Was that a pic of the #4 or #6 piston? I mean you did indicate the car pulled great and got good gas mileage. The carbon buildup though just throws me for a loop. Also seems like you might've had some detonation/knocking based on the tops of the piston. From the pics they seemed to be dimpled in several places.

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Carbon more than likely helped with that.

Truly sorry for your situation and sorry for my rant below but I had to write it, maybe for others. Your scoring looks pretty bad. The stroke is about 3" for our engine and from your photos, the scoring clearly spans the mid-stroke to the bottom. It could have been EASILY seen with a borescope through the spark plug holes. I also agree with others about the mechanic. His boroscope can't fit the spark plug holes? Our engine uses the standard 14mm spark plugs and all pro grade or even consumer grade borescope will fit with no problems. Yes, there are borescopes with larger heads but those are not for car repairs. It makes no sense to tear down the engine (even for free) just because you don't have a borescope of the right size! A borescope for this diagnosis can be had for less than $10 from eBay. I'm baffled. http://www.ebay.com/itm/5M-4-LED-Wat...item3cea02f8a5 I think even without the engine, your car should be > $3k so if you plan to sell to the mech, you should try to raise the price. The used transmission alone (125k I assume) should fetch you $1k easily.

I can see through this one pretty clearly... I also concur that the borescope, or even an inspection mirror and flashlight would have shown this degree of bore scoring, very easily. I would have diagnosed that one without ever pulling it apart. I go overboard to diagnose things BEFORE they are disassembled, so the owner can't ever say they were baited, or tricked into having the work done, since the car was already apart. Shops are costing lots of people lots of money, and we see more cars today from other shops than ever before.

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Any ideas/theories on the excessive carbon buildup on top of the piston(s)?

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Chamber contamination for all the oil consumption. It also looks like someone let the engine idle too long on initial start ups.

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Yea sure but everyone that listened to it said probably just a sticky lifter, just replace it when you can. Well I've been out of town for a month, and my intent to was to keep this car for a long time if it didn't have a serious engine problem. I was expecting to replace the lifters and then we're back to the road. It wasn't so black and white. I understand that - that's why I said "hindsight is 20/20". I don't blame you at all for going after the sticky lifter, I probably would have done the same. I feel badly about your situation, and wish you the best outcome. I think at the very least, the shop should reconstruct your engine for you at no further charge (He's already been paid $3k for his rather klunky misdiagnosis right?). At which point you should drive away from there as fast as you can. Under no circumstances would I sell him the car.

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Thanks and this can even happen even though the indy said scoring was only on the bottom and not the tops?

Its a sticky lifter about 2% of the time. People make this mis-diagnosis all the time. Its the biggest mistake that we see, because it sounds exactly like a lifter. When you have the other symptoms, it never is. Lat year a dealer in Virginia cost an owner 14K when they diagnosed this failure as a bad lifter. After they replaced all the lifters it was still there as the same noise.. Then they replaced all the cams, same noise, finally the guy called me. They charged him for every minute, and never stood behind their mis- diagnoses. He ended up sending the car down, and I found the bad cylinder, and had a video from the bore scope in his inbox within 30 minutes. Damn right. He will learn that with these engines, you never make generalizations, and you never say never. I see scoring all over bores, and on every cylinder. The problem holds no prejudice.

I am so sorry for your misfortune. Hope you value every option and take the best decision!! Off-Topic: Why even used 996 engines are so expensive at the states? In Greece you can find used M96 engine with 40-50k miles at around 7.5-10k Euros

Thank you for your kind words and advice. I spoke to the indy and he also feels bad that my first Porsche experience has been a pretty terrible one. He has an 01 C4 tiptronic cabriolet that he's offered as a straight up trade. Really liking this option, he completely rebuilt the engine 8,000 miles ago and sleeved the cylinders, along with a full service maintenance (AOS, oil cooler, alternator, fuel air and cabin filters, brake fluid flush, coolant flush, new tires, brake pads, etc.) This would be my cheapest option to stay in the Porsche game.

That doesn't sound bad... The term "rebuilt" is a very loosely used, nasty term in so many cases. Find out exactly what he did to the engine, especially how the cylinders were "sleeved".

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^Good info to have^ Caveat Emptor !!!

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Have you seen/driven the tip cab? Any "stories" about this car? Cannot help but wonder how he previously offered you $4K (obviously lowball) for your "roller" and is now proposing a straight swap for what sounds like a VERY healthy car (which should cost way more than your roller?) Anyway, best of luck.

I don't know the full story yet, I'll have to check it out. I have seen it even drove it once it's a nice car. Jake - steel sleeves.

You can read more on expert opinions on steel sleeves starting at post #303 in this thread https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...engine-21.html

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Me neither, but if it checks out...take it. Even if you decide to dump it, that's an extra wad of cash in your pocket. If I had to guess, the cab is probably the result of the last customer with scored bores who sold a $4K roller to the indie...

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If I remember correctly it was an intermix issue but I'm not positive. Sleeving was done because there was a little bit of scoring

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OP this sucks big time. Sorry this happened to you. 996 C4S seems like a great buy and I have friends who have been pretty happy with their C4S. I have been looking at buying one, but may stick with the turbo or 997.2 instead to avoid this issue.

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Copied-and-pasted below from your original post: maybe/hopefully, it won't be the case this time

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This sounds super fishy to me too.

Does anyone know how prevalent scored cylinders are on the 996/997.1 non turbos? Are they isolated incidents? Or are are they "bound to happen and only a matter of time?"

Take the C4 and get a PPI on it first, you may learn something about it.

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Sounds fishy to me but if I were in your shoes I'd probably take it and run.

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I think Jake has posted on here that they are not relegated to only the 996...

Every other engine I rebuild comes to my shop with scoring problem. EVERY time customer calls me up and says he had it diagnosed as a lifter issue I start laughing. When I get the car in my shop and start it I know it's a scoring problem, not a lifter. Engine noise is a lot different from lifters, it's usually a lot more quiet than scoring. In case of scoring, you will have a loud knocking noise, smoke coming out of the exaust, and you don't even need a boroscope to diagnose it. All you have to do is look at your exhaust, if you see one side (usually driver's side) tip dirty with smoke and oil you will know it's passenger side cylinders 4-6 scoring. This problem is caused by low oil level, cold winter starts, overheating the engine, not changing oil often enough. This is why I use special steel sleeves technology and send it all the way to Europe to get it done. It solves scoring or dchunk issues for good.

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This pretty much sums up everything that was happening with my car. The ticking started out pretty quietly. I never noticed smoke at all except for the occasional on startup. Both exhaust tips were dirty but I always had a mist on the back bumper, drivers side. I hope this nightmare doesn't happen to any of you. Really puts anyone in a tough spot.

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Thanks Martin for the tips that anyone can use to identify a potential problem. It's also nice for the RL community to have another option for sleeving as well. What kind of warranty comes with the steel sleeves(if any)?

Will the wheels for my '02 C2 fit on the '01 C4? What about exhaust....probably not since it's widebody?

FYI - "C4" is not "wide body" C4S is... Both model designations have been bandied about, but your first post that mentions the cabrio simply says "C4"...

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Both will fit. Funny how this took another turn with a question like this... Is the mechanic willing to offer any kind of warranty with it?

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That would be the "million dollar question." The indy sees an angle in wanting to do a straight swap for your roller in pieces for his healthy/running cab Hopefully, you get full disclosure so you can make an informed/educated decision.

No doubt, he did all the work himself on the engine so we're gonna talk about how long he'll stand by that work. Yes quite the turn of events. All in all, I still like my car - 02 has some nice updates, and I prefer the manual but I can see myself warming up to the tiptronic...and cabriolet, well, I like it in some ways and in other ways I don't even if some of my complaints are purely cosmetic. There have been many days where I've envied someone with the top down. But that's ok I'm looking at hardtops for it anyways for the winter. This does relieve quite the stress and it's a huge plus for me in this situation, and probably a good plus for the mechanic too.

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IMO, if the mechanic is willing to offer some warranty meaning he's confident of his fixes and is willing to stand by his work, I'd sell the car and get back into something you're 100% comfortable with. I don't see why you need to compromise.

Like Jake, I'm surprised the warranty paid out at all on that! Oh and last I checked, Aristocrat motors in KC had an overstock a 996 hard tops they were trying to sell a few years ago. they store them for customers in the summer, some customers would sell the car and forget about the tops, etc, so you might check there if you go forward with that deal.

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10 Year warranty.

Hell I'd offer a 50 year warranty. Why not? Your company name will change or you'll be out of business in 2 or 3 tops...the warranty will be invalid.

Well it turned out to be a different story talking details. He wants 11,000 on top of the trade for his 2001 c4 tiptronic cabriolet with 171,000 on the odometer but a full rebuild 8k miles ago after intermix from the rubber gasket (whatever its called) on the oil cooler....saw scoring on cylinder 6 and had it steel sleeved. Also replaced items like 1 radiator that had a seep, alternator, filters, fluids, water pump. Makes me upset because he comes out rosy on either end, he's getting my car for a steal which other than the engine issue is in great shape, an 02 manual. He says he has a lot of money/time in the other car and so selling it outright he'd want no less than 21,000. If I'm going to dump $11k, and not have the car that I love it's a bad deal. So ready to be done with this mess. Unfortunately this is relaly leaving a bad taste in my mouth. I'll prob end up selling as a roller (to the mechanic because it's all in pieces and I'm sure he'd want to charge a few grand on the back end if I wanted him to put it all back together so I can sell). I'm ready to cut my losses for as much as I can, buy something economical/practical and come back to the porsche gig when I can afford what I really want and have plenty of options in a newer car. I suppose I could see what would happen if I just put it back together and drove it with scored cylinders, but not even liking that option at this point. Still need to call Jake and see what he can do for me.

Since you had a PPI done at the same dealership where you bought the car about a year ago - and the story from them was "it's in great condition and said they would expect many more thousands of miles on the car no problem" - but in fact it was already showing scored bore signs (ticking and burning oil) when you purchased it, you _might_ be able to get some goodwill from them. Probably not, but it might be worth asking if they feel even the least bit guilty about giving your car a clean bill of health last year, only to find out the issues that they misdiagnosed were actually indicative of a serious, existing issue...

I bought the car from a private party, just had the PPI done at the dealership with the master tech

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Ah, I misread your original post. When you said the PPI was done by "the dealership," I assumed that meant the dealership from which you purchased the car. Sorry about that. It still sucks that your PPI failed to properly diagnose the issue. That probably doesn't make you feel great about whatever you spent on the PPI. Sorry, man.

Unfortunately neither IMS Retrofits or regular PPI mean squat these days unless it's an invasive PPI, even then there's no guarantees. Another option is to roll the dice with a $6k used engine w/ warranty. There are some out there. I can't see installation labor being more than 1-1.5k.

Yup. You could also consider a Boxster transplant, since Boxster engines can be cheaper. At least one person here documented their experience dropping a 986 motor into a 996. This wouldn't be my favorite option, but at this point any option that doesn't involve walking away is a good one.

Dare I say it........ Martin has some 996 motors

This is laughable. The mileage puts this car in the bottom group, value wise. "Rebuilt motor" adds nothing to value unless done by a reputable builder such as F6I. Did you not learn anything from the first one?

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Yup, always good to mock the guy who is just listing the options he knows of, and who has already indicated that the replacement 996 in exchange for the roller plus a lot of cash wasn't what the wrench seemed to be offering initially. I think I've realized what's going on with your posts - you genuinely want to be recognized and congratulated for stating the obvious. What's the deal? Didn't get enough "attaboys" when you were potty training, so now you take sh**s all over the Internet hoping for that attention you didn't get as a toddler?

Attaboy Schnell, you tell him! (Is that how this works?) Anyway, this thread makes my head hurt. KK, could you, I don't know, be not you for a while?

Sorry but I cant take credit for the direction this threads taking. Schn3ll is just being himself while using his mean account. I think the other ones nicer.

Agreed about that PPI, there are a lot of reasons I'm not too happy about the situation. I agree that it's laughable. Everyone knows that the maintenance doesn't = an increase in value. That's why I'm considering just walking away until I really find something I want. I could part it out but don't have the patience. I just hope I can get what I want out of my car. I'll miss it.

What are the details on the car? I would like to make an offer and pick it up Monday.

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KK, please list my other accounts - I'm curious to learn who else on Rennlist you think are actually shards of my personality. For the record, I have exactly one Rennlist account. You're welcome to ask RL admins if any other accounts have been accessed using my public IPs, but it would be wasted effort. And not because I spoof my outbound IP - I try not to do stuff that will make the NSA start keeping track of what I do on the Internet. Too many uncomfortable questions to answer under oath... I don't really have a problem with speaking my mind, so I don't understand what benefit would be derived from multiple accounts. In the unlikely event I say something memorable, I wouldn't want the credit to go to some Rennlist doppelganger... I might create a second Facebook profile to see if I can catfish John Ireland, but otherwise, I stick to one account on the sites I frequent... One of my favorite Nicolas Cage quotes from Wild at Heart neatly encapsulates my views on KK: "How your mind works is God's own private mystery."

Bro, you really need to dump this pile and move on. I bet you would like a newer one anyway.

JI is back with a new attitude and he's not scared of you any more.

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2002 C2 Manual 125k miles Polar Silver exterior, grey interior in good shape New Sumitomo HTR Z 3 tires this spring Turbo front bumper, Appradio, Fister D exhaust New cabin/air filters, oil filter, AOS, brake pads I'll see if I have some pics on hand

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You really need to stop logging into rennlist just so you can say bad things about these cars. Just move on and buy a GTI with your boyfriend.

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KK, No one here is your brother, bro, bra, bru, bruh or what ever other stupid spelling you can think of You are not 14 years old (well maybe as you act that way) GROW UP

KK thrives on attention - good, bad, or otherwise. It might be "nice DIY!" or it might be "damn, dude, you are a fat, steamy pile of fresh loser" - the latter is where my opinion of KK generally hovers - but any attention for him is awesome. Thus, he goes back on my ignore list so I won't continue giving him positive reinforcement for his stupid behavior. At least Johnny Irish enjoys the troll - for KK, it's just a necessary part of the internet equivalent of lying on the grocery store floor throwing a tantrum / jumping up and down shouting, "Look at me! Look at me!" At any rate, this makes life better: OP, what's the 911 situation now?

KK, when does your membership expire and are you just trying to make the most of it since you paid for it but no longer own a Porsche?

Does anyone have an opinion on what it would cost to put an LS1 in the car? Not including labor, I have PLENTY of free help. I love the local PCA.

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hope this link helps: https://rennlist.com/forums/996-foru...1-content.html

Renegade hybrids, as you no doubt know, can supply the adapter plates and other major pieces to get you started...

people really put this in their signature: 2014 Porsche Performance Driving School - San Diego region 2012 & 2010 Jetta, 2003 Mitsubishi Eclipse Spyder 1998 Windstar - Dog van

I would not sell it to the mecanic for 4k.. This is a C4S & 6 speed manual car with almost new tires... You can probably get 7k as a roller without an engine but with transmission IMO. Take all the engine components and part them out. If the heads are in good condition you can at least get $500 for each. Pistons, rods, etc all that is money and the engine taken apart wont take much space. All said and done, after selling the engine pieces, you can get at least 8k-9k for it.

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It is not a C4S model

when I looked into it, the renegade kit was about the same price as fixing my blocks with the LNE work. renegade kit wasn't 100% either (some dash/instruments stuff was still in the works at that time)

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In a word YES. You can put what ever you want there. You blessed us with your presence today slumming in the 996 forum with an idiotic comment? Did someone **** in your Wheaties today? You are the signature **** now?

The renegade kit isn't a turnkey solution, but it gets you the major components (adapter plate, mounts, etc) you need to actually mount a non-Porsche motor into a 996.

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Just add a year of your life & unlimited free labor!

Pretty much - but without their stuff, you'd better hire a machinist on top of the other stuff. You can also ship the car to Vegas and have them do the conversion, but I bet it ain't cheap.

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And probably won't pass smog in CA

OP's in Kansas, so that's probably not something he's as worried about as we are in the PDRC.

I talked to them on the phone. I can find an LS1 for pretty cheap, probably less than 2k that I would trust. 7k in kit parts if you use all the kits, but like others have said it's not plug and play. Electrical wiring is pretty much up to you, as well as exhaust. Since my car is a 996.2 there are also some problems getting all the electrical to sync up properly but nothing major. Would be a really fun project, but not sure I am wiling to dump the time into that and rope my friends into helping lol. If you send it down to NV and have renegade do it, they said on the budget side it can be done for about 22k, but average is around 28k all said and done. I don't have the time to spend every spare moment working on the car and trying to figure out the gaps where the kit leaves off. So for anyone that goes through this it really is just about how much money and or time you're willing to part with. If you're willing to put in all the time and do a lot of the ground work yourself you COULD get it back on the road for not all that much. Or you can spend a lot to have someone rebuild your engine, drop in a used engine, or do a core charge swap with a rebuilding company, or pay someone to do an LS swap.... Or you can cut your losses and figure out how to get the most out of your car that you can. Since this was my daily it puts me in a tighter situation. I can cut my losses and not deal with it anymore, buy myself a budget 4x4 for the winter, pick up a cheap sports car next year and come back to the pcar in a couple years.

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There's always the third option and contact one of the members here that did it all by himself with no kit whatsoever. He basically made his own on the fly. And plus IIRC did it in record time. That was one guy I was truly in awe with on here.

I think White Out also used a basic Renegade kit, but I might be mistaken. *edit* From the first post of White Out's conversion thread: "Renegade Hybrid engine mount and coolant system arrived in November"

Right, the kit has changed a bit though since he did the conversion back in 2013. Not much but it's just a little more detailed on what you do. You still have to figure out a lot yourself from what I gathered.

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There's quite a few documentation from users now that it is easier to put this together with less guess work than before but at a starting cost of $8k+ for a somewhat complete conversion kit plus the cost of the drivetrain/wire harness/ecu/trans/etc, I can easily see this getting close to $20k all said and done. That's a bit hard to swallow as well. It still boggles me on the price difference between a LS conversion kit for a 944 vs 996 though... kinda like a center radiator kit between the 996 and 997...

Well this thread has got me paranoid now... Makes me want to go listen to my car idle. Then again maybe I shouldn't. Every car I've ever owned has made some kind of cyclical sound at idle, to one degree or another. Nothing like catching a case of forum fever to make me start diagnosing problems I don't have!

Well if you hear something that sounds like a lifter tick, assume it's the cylinders..if it's really bad you may be able to tell by taking out the spark plugs and boroscoping but the scoring occurs on the underside of the cylinders first. So really you'd have to drop the sump.. guilty until proven innocent If your motor sounds fine on idle, and you're not burning oil or seeing the oil mist (especially on the drivers side rear bumper) don't worry about it. And heed Jake Raby's warnings about cold starts.

Sad day. Selling my car today for a whopping $8k

Well at least the new owner once he fixes the engine will be happy.

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Sorry to hear that. IMHO, $8k is not a bad deal at all.

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If selling as a roller, you did pretty good as Ahsai mentioned. What's next?

Agreed, I felt pretty good about it, no doubt the mechanic felt good about it too. Not sure what's next yet. Still want something fun to drive but I'm gonna leave the Porsche realm for a couple years I think and come back to whatever the newest 911 I can afford at that time. Maybe a Miata? I always thought they were, dare I say it, girly cars but it fits the profile of a fun car to drive, cheap/easy to maintain, and reliable. A little on the slow side though. Any suggestions out there?

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Sorry to hear, I am in the same boat with the same problem as well. As for suggestions on cars, maybe a S2000? I had considered a Miata too, they're pretty fun to dive

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If you're entertaining a Miata, you should also be looking at or at least test drive a Subaru BRZ. Really fun cars and low enough hp to have max fun on the streets and not get in trouble.

If you've never driven a Miata, especially a modified one, do that. You can roll $8k into a pretty well sorted Miata and have enough to take a nice vacation. S2000 is a great choice although probably at least double the price, same with the toyaburu twins.

True enough. Would love to get my hands on an NC monster. Also looking at a crossfire, and an RX8. Man, I find myself comparing them all to the 996 though lol. I know I'll be back in the game soon enough.

Stay away from the rotaries!!!! The BRZ is pretty slow and since it N/A, not much can be done to make it faster. Whatever you pick, make sure it has at least 300hp in stock form.

I got to play with a turbo brz at the track. slow is not a word I would ever use to describe it. if the funds allow it, then brz + turbo kit and tuning should srsly be considered! wish I went that way....

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crossfire is like getting a wannabe benz IMO with ugly looks to boot(relative). RX8 has had issues since new. Not uncommon to burn quart of oil even on new cars with a couple thousand miles. Now an RX8 w/LS swap on the other hand...

one day. that's a dream project for me. RX8/7 LS swap.

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The BRZ doesn't come with a turbo so my comments are still valid. Adding a turbo to a N/A engine is only good if you like to always work on it your self or have deep pockets and a spare car to have when the boosted one is down for the count. For realiblity I don't suggest adding any boost to a N/A engine. Go with one that comes with it from the factory and then crank that one up.

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I have an Crossfire SRT6 Roadster. This has been the best bang for the buck car I have ever owned!! I paid $15k for it 5 years ago. A one owner car with full history and 50k miles. Hand assembled AMG 3.2 supercharged engine, factory rated at 330hp and 310 ft lbs. Huge AMG brakes and AMG exhaust. The car is basically an '04 SLK32 AMG. I've added a slightly smaller supercharger pulley and a Eurocharged ecu/tcu tune. This mod add about another 50hp and 50ft lbs. The acceleration on this car is incredible and would blow away my 996. Maintenance on this car has been basic stuff. Just change the oil and filters. The only other things over the past 5+ years needed was a new intercooler pump (common a couple hundred $$ IIRC) and new valve cover gaskets. Also, only 1252 SRT6 Roadsters built worldwide and in the neighborhood of about 2900 SRT Coupes Both cars are pretty much orphans and misunderstood by the masses. For this I am thankful. I have two awesome performance sports cars for in the mid $30s total!!! I love it!!!

I've got a 996 C4S, but have driven @40k miles in a Toyota GT86. They are not slow, if you know how to drive them, agreed, they don't have a load of explosive power, but that's not their design brief. You need to drive the wheels off them, you the driver, the car on it's own won't do it, but that's the appeal. If you live in an area with few bends/corners, don't buy one. Turbo's are not the way to go with these engines, superchargers are what you need on these, and always was. Toyota/Subaru have since launch promoted superchargers for these engines,they are high revving, short stroke screamers. The original Subaru flat 4's were lazy, long stroke motors, which worked well with turbos. A decent supercharger kit will take it to around 250bhp, which is plenty in these cars, with such little weight. They handle so well and are great fun to drive.

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Had an RX8 before my 996. It is not as cool or as fun as a 996. I never had mechanical problems or oil consumption on mine. FD RX7? I recently picked up a cherry RX7 R1.

Glad to hear that essjayarr. I've heard the reliability can be an issue with them. Hmm decisions decisions.

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Go over to Crossfireforum.org, then the SRT6 section. The SRT6 is a much different car than a base Crossfire. Mechanically identical the the Mercedes C32AMG and SLK32AMG.